If you look at the numbers on mobile, it makes no sense from a business perspective to create non-F2P games on this platform.
You can still make money with so-called "premium" games, that were simply normal games before Apple poisoned the well, but the potential is considerably lower.
Part of it may be the "don't want to pay upfront" but shareware knows how that goes (free first part of the game, then pay $30 for the rest or whatever).
If a game developer can make a living making "premium" games, then it makes sense to do so, especially with the very real ethical problems with making free-to-play games laden with microtransactions.
Just because you would only ever choose to do what makes you the most money possible, and damn the rest of the world, that doesn't mean everyone would or should make that choice.
Most developers cannot make a living selling premium games on mobile. There have been plenty of cost breakdowns posted to HN by game developers.
Occasionally a big mega-hit can make a profit, but for the majority of developers, free is now the only viable way.
I moved from doing code for industrial use and public admin as a consultant to mobile gaming.
We have one hit game and the _daily_ marketing (a.k.a. user acquisition) budget for us is an order of magnitude bigger than the biggest projects I did at my old job.
All the "ethical problems" usually are just older (usually) men in IT not understanding that people want to pay money to have fun.
Some people go to bars to relax after a work week and drop $100 gladly. Others use that for going to the movies, some go to have a nice dinner. And some people really like relaxing while playing games and they want to pay for that, because they think it's worth the price.
Fucking absurd, to be frank. Watch a GDC talk on growing mobile F2P revenue and you will be exposed to a slew of deceptive methods for psychologically manipulating players (who are often kids) into addictive spending habits, often literally through gambling mechanisms.
But games like Diablo Immortal, Genshin Impact and Honkai: Star Rail wouldn't keep their player base if they were just a 100% psychologically manipulative cash grabs.
Not so when all the big gaming mobile companies are assigning their top talent to building stuff like Clash of Kings. And why wouldn't they, when they can make so much more money doing so than working on a quality prestige game that no one will pay for.
> the premium game market still exists and still is going strong, no reason it couldn't live on mobile devices also.
It's actually the opposite. Mobile-style microtransactions are slowly taking over the premium PC/console gaming market.
I agree... but there isn't one. And I don't think it's because of an underpowered GPU.
Wasn't that a reaction to users who refused to pay for games and just sideloaded them instead?
I can remember there being five dollar games in the early days of iOS that sold well. I can also remember developers trying games that had ads until you paid to remove them.
No. That was a minuscule number of people.
It was a reaction to Candy Crush making insane amounts of money using casino mechanics.
I can certainly remember developers of early popular games that you paid for up front saying that they tracked how many copies of their game were out there, and only a minuscule percentage of those games had been paid for,
I don't think piracy is the issue here, the issue is on mobile devices you already have quick payments setup for very fast transactions through the app stores. It's easier to assume to assume the person using the phone authorized to make the transaction and enable lots of small transactions.
On PC it's much easier to enter my card details for each new transaction, so i never save the card in Steam etc. Doing the same on the phone is tiring, so i have my card saved.
Apple and Google also make a little money on these transactions and have less incentive to promote non freemium games.
My impression at the time was that the supply of games in the app store was just too great, with hundreds of casual games being released every day. Thus driving down prices.
And Apple was more than happy to commoditise their complement; if 20 developers decided to clone Flappy Bird that was fine with Apple.
People were willing to pay up front on iOS, but Android users just sideloaded, leading to Skinner box free-to-play games being the most reliable way to monetize.
Sideloading makes piracy a service problem instead of a freedom one, and Apple knows their service can't compete on an unstacked deck.
Only if you expect developers and/or studios to work for no pay.
Why do you think we live in a world where you need an internet connection to play a single player game? Developers need a way to be sure you've paid up.
You keep bringing this around to revenue, but Apple could solve this problem if they didn't benefit from the status quo. A company 10x smaller than them did it, a company with full control over their hardware stack has no excuse to drag their feet and copy Open Source's homework.
What you’re missing is that Apple has their own proton that they’re using to help developers port their games like what Valve is doing with proton. Imo most of Apple still hates games if it didn’t bring in so much revenue. Now we have a small team trying to change that at Apple similar to how WSL for Windows came to being. I just hope that the higher ups continue to support and promote Apple’s “proton”
Well Apple and Valve are doing exact opposite things with their tools. Let me explain.
Valve runs your windows game unmodified. There is no 'porting process' and there is no 'port'. As person working with large publisher I am still in shock and disbelief that it is legal and works well in practice but here we are. The funny part is when developer of windows version of a game is asked 'how well do you support Steam Deck?'. And developer has to do windows version changes and produce new windows version that has tweaks for Steam Deck.
Ever hear of DRM? How about consoles that brick themselves if they detect that they've been modified?
In which case, we’d still expect PCs to be in an equivalent, if not worse state.
If a game gets content updates every other month, re-downloading a pirated game, and possibly losing all progress, meh.
If a game is going to go on sale for $20 (or $10) after awhile, why bother pirating it, just wait.
And Steam is absurdly convenient. Built in voice chat, collectables, and forums, means playing games on Steam is better than playing pirated games.
Steam is a DRM platform.
There is no way 1 generation of games can "take over and destroy" the "promise of gaming" because there are no restrictions on what future innovators can do with the tools and the platforms. The existence of some bad games doesn't preclude future good games.
As an example, my favorite mobile game is Slay the Spire
We already have beautiful mobile games, like Monument Valley. But that's not what the market is about. The very term "mobile game" reeks of low quality at this point. I don't see it changing.
What exactly is it that you are after? It seems like you are not content simply getting the games you want, such as Monument Valley. You also need everyone else to live their life a certain way?
Why not simply conclude that the market is big enough for everyone to coexist. And as long as there's games for you, you don't have to lament other people sitting around enjoying candy crush.
Well, yes, I need — or rather, would prefer — all the people who are addicted to portable slot machines, to stop throwing their lives away being addicted to portable slot machines.
But I don't blame those people for that, nor do I think that trying to get them to each personally attempt to overcome their addiction would be practical.
People with gambling addictions are people with a particular cognitive vulnerability to variable-scheduled rewards. Unlike people with other addictions, who "go overboard" on something that other people can "enjoy responsibly" (and so which society has a reason to otherwise permit), people with gambling addictions are the targets of products and services produced solely to target them, that people without gambling addictions just... don't see the point of. Slot machines of all sorts exist to commercially exploit gambling addicts. And they do so very well.
That very exploitation was why the US had outlawed casinos in almost every state; why casinos are 19+ to enter, even when not serving alcohol; why "casino game" video games must be rated M; why even depictions of gambling affect the age-ratings for TV shows and movies.
But now that exploitation has leaked. It's no longer limited to casinos; it's now everywhere in the palm of your hand — and not just bare-faced as "casino games", but also in the guise of everything from shooters to RPGs, all with their own variable-scheduled rewards that can suck up unbounded amounts of your very real money.
Obviously, I blame the exploiters — the "gaming" [i.e. casino] industry, and the ex-"gaming"-industry professionals infecting the games industry with their exploitation tactics. And also, I blame society, for not punishing the exploiters, not outlawing the exploitation.
> sitting around enjoying candy crush
My dude, Candy Crush is a great, fun, classic, and ethical game compared to what they have these days. Have you looked at the mobile casual games market in the last five years? If the words "rare JPEG" don't mean anything to you, then you should really spend a few minutes looking into the people throwing away their life savings on some of these "games."
In comparison games that can't survive under the Nintendo rules but still need a wide platform flourish on smartphones. That's where we see the split between games that can stand without micro-transaction and dark patterns, and those that can't. Genshin has been announced to come to the Switch for years now, and I'm not holding my breath given their mechanics, while the new iPhone's GPU capabilities are straight aimed at letting Hoyo thrive.
The same cannot be said for the app store. Save from basic DRM (steam has this), leaderboards (steam has this) & achievements (steam has this), you get much less for that cut.
There are plenty of other options (Epic Games, Microsoft Store, etc.), each with a different revenue share arrangement. Or you can self-publish on your own website and infrastructure (Minecraft did this and it worked out pretty well for them).
Most developers (not all!) clearly have decided that the value Steam provides (features+audience) is worth it. But, crucially, with Steam, it's a choice. With iOS, it's not. You are forced to go through the App Store whether you like it or not (for now, at least). And if tomorrow Apple decides that 30% is not enough and they'd like a bit more, there's not much you can do about it.
Outside of small, niche indie games (which are great and do well within their own respect), free-to-play gacha games is the 'state of the art.
Smartphones have existed for a long time now, and the games absolutely suck, except the extremely rare high quality indie game port like Papers Please or Slay the Spire.
If some new policy changed this, I think we’d see a whole new wave of higher quality games
Maybe we need a pornography-like definition ("I know it when I see it") but I think there is certainly a continuum from high-quality DLC / expansions to existing games (which can be basically a new game) down to crystals which allow you to instantly buy something which you'd have got anyway if you had waited.
So, consider a basic, Mario-kart like racing game - which of these are OK, and which are micro-transactions?
- buying additional courses,
- buying additional characters (drivers), vehicles, or components of vehicle (e.g. wheels, engines, bodies),
- buying purely cosmetic changes (e.g. driver outfits, vehicle colours),
- buying permanent upgrades to your vehicle(s) (i.e. more speed, better acceleration, better handling)
- buying one-off power-ups that last for a single race, or are time-limited (+50% acceleration for 1 hour)
- buying 'cheats' - obvious play-to-win items (e.g. needing to complete 1 fewer lap than your opponent),
- buying regular game-progression; e.g. maybe 100 races/wins/hours of play are normally required to unlock all courses, but this can also be instantly purchased.
- any of the above options, but not bought directly, but rather via purchasing 'crystals' which can be exchanged for the above.
- any of the above options, but in a 'gatcha' style (i.e. loot boxes; you cannot choose which upgrade you want),
I think I'd be totally OK with the top three, maybe OK with buying permanent upgrades, and unlocking game progression (in this case), but the others are too far for me.
Some micro transactions are tolerable, some of the time, but every single one of these commercializes the product. IMO if they exist, the game should be free-to-play. Where I really get annoyed are games like Lego2K (racing game) where you pay $60 to play, and then it's also full of microtransactions (for cars, courses, cosmetics, you name it).
I think it's a different matter when it's a content-filled DLC add-on to the game. Yes, the line for that is a bit arbitrary, but the classic example would be Starcraft: Brood War (well, technically that was an expansion pack, but same idea). Adding a single additional course to a racing game blurs the line, I generally think content should be bundled so the gamer isn't constantly making financial decisions while playing.
I don't see governments doing this, but I think we'll see something like this soon in the EU when we can install competing app stores.
One of the reasons I got Apple One, the kids can install an endless amount of decent to excellent games from there and I don't need to worry about them wasting money on them or getting predatory ads.
Sneaky Sasquatch is the hidden gem in there. It starts off simple, but it's a really cool and complex world you can explore
But then predatory freemium games like Clash of Clans and newer replacements for Angry Birds and Plants vs Zombies burned me out. They eliminated any desire I had to invest time or money or attention into mobile games. Popular freemium games in the App Store now bury any new gems. It's quite disappointing.
A better GPU isn't going to help the situation.
My list of games is basically the same. I think they are legitimately rare, and we believe at the time that they are not. It's like YouTube. You find one 3blue1brown or Adam Neely and you think there are a hundred more. There aren't.
These weren't hidden gems either, these were front and center promoted links in the App Store. I'm sure it's possible to find experiences like these in modern games, but I've given up hope long ago. I don't have time to sift through the trash.
I don't think there's a mobile game out there that has given me more entertainment.
Just over 200k is my high-score and I've yet to witness the 6144 card. Still out here trying though!
But as you say, still out there trying.
Of course, the shitty free clone 2048 took the concept, made it worse, and somehow (because it was free) captured the majority of the market.
I still play Threes! regularly as well.
Unfortunately that isn't just true for games but also for apps. I wish Apple had focused more on building a healthier App Store ecosystem.
Soon we'll be able to install whichever apps we like in the EU thanks to the DMA. I think there is a hunger for alternative app stores.
It so absurd: We need to carry the device anyway since its a phone, it has a great GPU and there are thousands of existing great games that have been created that the device can easily run. The only problem has always been the stupidity of the code not being available to run on this device. :/
- sn30 pro
- lite 2
- zero
- micro
The latter two are comically miniscule. In my opinion the sn30 pro is the sweet spot between portability and actually being able to play comfortably.
Personally, I don’t have the incentive because 1) paid mobile gaming isn’t a big market (see: top paid apps being the exact same years-old, curated Apple apps not having many reviews/downloads), 2) there aren’t many options to develop games targeting iOS which also target Android and Windows/Linux (at least if you want to use Swift), and 3) Apple could remove my game at any notice and I don’t get 30% of the revenue.
If Apple introduces a way to easily port desktop games to iOS, or even develop entirely new games which can run on Linux and mac and iPhone, I think we’d see a lot more iOS games. Maybe the new GPU isn’t only faster but also supports Vulkan/wgpu better?
Legitimately asking. I'm not up to speed on the subject.
1. https://developer.apple.com/games/planning/#bring-games-to-a...
“You earn $3 and then you update it for the next 10 years. If you’re making free-to-play games, if you keep earning money with a game, yeah, that’s a great model because you can make more money by updating.”
Ismail pointed to Vlambeer’s “Ridiculous Fishing,” which won a number of awards from gaming publications and Apple.
“‘Ridiculous Fishing’ is never going to make more money,” he said. “Yeah, some new people might buy it, but we made our money with ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ in 2013 and that money is spent, It’s spent on ‘Luftrausers.’ It’s spent on ‘Nuclear Throne.’ If somebody upgrades their phones to the new iPhone. Yeah. You have ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ in your account, Yeah you paid $3 for it. Yeah, it’s broken.”
That’s what caused the last major update Vlambeer did for the game. A major change by Apple in 2017 that switched from 32-bit to 64-bit apps, breaking a slew of content on their phones … including “Ridiculous Fishing.”
“All games broke,” he said, “Every game that wasn’t programmed for it broke. We updated ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ then but it feels like a mistake almost. It feels like, OK it’s 2018 and this game that we made money with that somebody bought in 2013 is now broken outside of our fault. We didn’t change anything. We didn’t break the game. We didn’t introduce a bug, but this continuous ecosystem that Apple has created, that comes with you with every new phone, broke it. “
Ismail said that either Apple has to start designing for backward compatibility support on their end or that people are going to have to get used to the idea of games dying and disappearing.
“Some of the best ios games from 2010 are gone,” he said. “Those developers, they don’t exist anymore. They went out of business. They split up. They started a new thing and they just don’t have the money or time to do it.”
https://variety.com/2019/gaming/features/android-ios-apple-g...