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Re:The Worst Programmer by jamestimmins on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:54AM (#37362066)
Reminds me of an anecdote about Bell Labs. Someone calculated who the most productive employees were (based on things like patents received), and found that many of them would eat lunch with the same person. That person wasn't individually very productive, but he would always ask thoughtful, compelling questions that in turn made his coworkers measurably more productive.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jongjong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:19AM (#37362284)
It sucks being that person today because everything is about optics and that person will get purged. I know from experience.

Team players, mentors, software architects; they tend to be tossed aside to make room for junior coders who can churn out large amounts of code, even as the company's capacity to deliver and maintain features declines over time due to tech debt. Managers always love a developer who can consistently write 5000+ lines per code per week, regardless of how many features they actually ship and how many bugs they introduce.

As a team lead and engineer who has managed some complex projects, idea of someone writing over 2000 lines of code per week terrifies me... That's over 100K lines of code a year. Think of the unnecessary complexity. There is a very good chance that the same feature set could have been implemented with just 10K lines of code, less buggy and in half the time though that would only amount to 380 lines of code per week!

I tend to think that the dev who can churn out thousands of lines isn't thinking deeply enough about the long term direction of the project; all the code they're writing is essentially throwaway code.

Re:The Worst Programmer by marcosdumay on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:33AM (#37362424)
It sucked being that person back then too.

The idea of measuring everything and acting on the numbers you can get is from the 19th century. Managers have been doing that same kind of practice since then, with the same kind of result (it's a very reliable result), without a change.

Re:The Worst Programmer by namaria on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:59PM (#37363876)
Being superficial wasn't invented in the 19th century. People are very oriented to things they can see, measure and touch, when the most impactful and insightful people are often the silent care takers, the teachers, those keeping things running smoothly.

When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Re:The Worst Programmer by vegetablepotpie on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:02PM (#37363906)
A lot of that is from Frederick Taylor, who invented “scientific management”.

He did experiments where he would have workers shovel piles of ash from one side of a line to the next, giving them a new shovel size each day. Found that the ideal shovel size holds 21 pounds [1].

The ideological assumption of his work is that management exclusively does the thinking and the workers exclusively do the doing. This falls apart when the workers have unique knowledge and insight that management does not have.

[1] https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/63341/frederick-winslow-...

Re:The Worst Programmer by marcosdumay on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:04PM (#37365916)
> when the workers have unique knowledge and insight that management does not have.

AKA every time.

AFAIK, Taylor himself wasn't nearly as radical about doing measurements and only acting on them nor about managers deciding everything and not listening to the workers as Taylorism preaches. His work was one of the many, many management theories that was completely modified to appeal to incompetent power-hungry wannabe dictators (and yet blamed on the person proposing the original theory).

Re:The Worst Programmer by tengwar2 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:24PM (#37364108)
Acting on the numbers you get is not intrinsically a problem: it's what the action is. Looking at how fast stories, function points or whatever get closed is important for planning what you can get done in a given time, and that can be crucial for project management and managing customer expectations. It's not acquiring the information which is a problem; it's not using the metrics which is the problem. The problem is not understanding what the metric can be used to represent (project velocity), and what it cannot (individual productivity);
Re:The Worst Programmer by ResearchCode on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:14PM (#37365119)
Those are not important at all, or the top software projects would be using them. Linux kernel is doing fine without the velocity point story tickets. Agile "planning" which is used in worse software projects is snake oil.
Re:The Worst Programmer by krmboya on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:46PM (#37366151)
It may be useful to collect metrics to get insights, but if they are publicized as a measure of performance, it's likely they'll be gamed, making them less useful.
Re:The Worst Programmer by dharmab on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:33AM (#37362423)
I've written several 100ks LOC/year at points in my career- but exclusively when working on new projects. When maintaining projects I might go a week at a time without writing any code solo, or I might spend a week trying to _reduce_ LOC.
Re:The Worst Programmer by dmoy on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:38AM (#37362477)
I think my net contribution of lines of code at my current company is still negative. It was for a long time, but I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure if it still is.
Re:The Worst Programmer by dharmab on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:42AM (#37362526)
Usually I end up adding more lines of documentation and tests and removing lines of application code so it's not easily measurable- on theme for this thread, heh
Re:The Worst Programmer by allenrb on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:44AM (#37362540)
I remember times at a few of my jobs, just absolutely cheering for someone’s PR that was filled with red. Good times.
Re:The Worst Programmer by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:31PM (#37363022)
So the metric could "modified" lines of code, not "added".
Re:The Worst Programmer by esafak on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:13PM (#37363404)
At my last company we had an architect whose only direct coding contributions were deletions.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jongjong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:49AM (#37362592)
My problem in my last role when I read large Pull Requests is that they tended to be way more complicated than they should have been but because they worked and I couldn't single out a small number of specific problems, I had no choice but to approve. Still, I knew it would slow us down in the medium and long term but this bloat is completely invisible to management.

It has become taboo to say things like "This code is too tightly coupled", "You don't need to add an external dependency for that", "The inputs to those methods are too complicated; your components are micromanaging each others' state", "You're violating separation of concerns", "The cyclomatic complexity of this code is too high; you could simplify all your if-else statements"... When it's not my company, it's impossible to dismiss code when it works right now, even though it is likely to break later.

Re:The Worst Programmer by dharmab on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:55AM (#37362651)
I sometimes use my job title as a higher level senior or lead to say vulnerable things like:

"This change is hard for me to read and understand"

or

"This is a large PR, and it may be difficult for me to schedule time to review it. Can it be split up into a series?"

I also configure linters and code quality tools to automatically flag some of the more egregious problems.

Re:The Worst Programmer by jongjong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:01PM (#37362727)
I can relate though I wish I could get into a position that I could say such things and not get fired. In some circles "This change is hard to me to read and understand" would be interpreted as "I'm an aging dinosaur who doesn't understand this new tech; you youngsters are too clever for me." (though I realize how completely wrong it is).

I'm 33 but I feel like I already have to make an effort to avoid the dinosaur label. I disagree with a lot of modern tech trends but I simply cannot express my view about them even though I could explain the problems very clearly and logically and can provide far better and simpler alternatives. Unfortunately, hype does not yield to reasoning... And sometimes, you're too far into the tech debt and it doesn't make financial sense to rewrite.

Re:The Worst Programmer by padjo on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:24PM (#37362948)
I’m 10 years older, my experience has been that getting to ask stupid questions is one of the joys of age/seniority/security. Very often everyone else in the room has the same stupid question but you get to look like a stone cold genius because you were willing to risk looking silly.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jongjong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:37PM (#37363077)
I guess maybe in 10 years I'll be working with 30 year olds who understand and value of that approach as I do today.

My current reality is that I'm a 33 year old working with 20 year olds who think they're geniuses who are going to take over the world in 5 years; from that viewpoint, I'm essentially a failed engineer because I didn't build a Facebook, Uber or AirBnB even though I had 10 years to do it.

Re:The Worst Programmer by hgsgm on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:23PM (#37363514)
From seeing your posts, I think you have a psychologica lock that under mines your self-confidence.
Re:The Worst Programmer by reneherse on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:30PM (#37363598)
I'm curious what type of company has these team demographics. Startup, agency, SMB, bigcorp, academia, or?
Re:The Worst Programmer by whstl on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:29PM (#37364721)
Everywhere.

5 years ago I was at a small bootstrapped startup and one of the worst engineers I've ever worked with was saying he'd expect to be a CTO of a mid-size startup in 5 years. He had just started his career. He managed to concoct quite an interesting fictional LinkedIn profile, while in reality he had almost no coding experience. He was a grifter.

In larger, established, tech companies this wasn't as prevalent but mostly because people were a bit more mature and respectful.

I guess it comes down to maturity. In startups and SMBs it was easy to find this attitude. Junior developers are often the most difficult.

Re:The Worst Programmer by zerbinxx on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:43PM (#37366997)
Usually this kind of thing comes from “trying to keep costs down” at a poorly funded firm, usually startup-ish. I’ve worked places where the oldest engineer was 30 and it’s rough, quality and stability just aren’t in the average 25 year old’s toolkit.
Re:The Worst Programmer by bcrosby95 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:34PM (#37364197)
If you need to knock someone down a peg or two, just get good at finding race conditions.

Webapp coding is harder than it appears because of them. I haven't worked in a codebase without them.

But they're usually so unlikely to happen it's not worth fixing them all because it can lead to very specific and tricky code. So as long as the consequences of it occurring aren't really bad, I just leave it alone.

Re:The Worst Programmer by marcosdumay on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:01PM (#37363306)
Don't mislead yourself, that benefit comes exclusively from security. Age and seniority only contribution is some weak correlation to security.
Re:The Worst Programmer by erik_seaberg on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:10PM (#37365954)
My secret weapon (rarely needed) is “I got this eventually, but someone may have trouble quickly figuring it out during a 3 AM outage.”
Re:The Worst Programmer by cratermoon on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:52PM (#37363210)
> "This change is hard for me to read and understand"

Believe it or not, I consulted at one place where the manager decided I was the problem because I was consistently assessing problem code and team processes in similar ways. She asserted that "everyone else understood", even when they plainly didn't understand but where just going through the motions.

Said manager had a number of other issues as well. Worst gig I can recall having in the last couple of decades.

Re:The Worst Programmer by ido on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:05PM (#37363939)
I would start being less diplomatic once I get the hunch polite phrasing isn’t getting through - “this code is badly structured, brittle and will make debugging harder”. As programmers being tactless is expected so might as well use it to your benefit.
Re:The Worst Programmer by cratermoon on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:49PM (#37365829)
In this case, I could have, but I felt my time was better spent thinking about why things were complex and hard to understand and made notes on that, mostly for my future self. Whenever I found the opportunity, I would include some of the reasoning and explanation, in written form, in my feedback. I didn't get much out of that gig, but I did end up with several thousand words of ideas and observations. I wouldn't be surprised if some future programmer on that project ran across something I left behind and found it useful, or at least comforting.

Edit to add: in 1:1s with the manager I was more direct. About the best I can say about that is "at least I tried".

Re:The Worst Programmer by pc86 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:58AM (#37362682)
I'm honestly not familiar with this "I had no choice but to approve" mindset. In the greenfield projects I've worked on there was always at least one person, sometimes several, who had the authority to just say "no, this is far too complex, scratch it all and we'll meet tomorrow to discuss next steps." Sometimes it ended up with breaking the PR into several more manageable pieces, sometimes it ended up with a wholesale rewrite / refactor of that component.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jongjong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:13PM (#37362851)
I didn't have enough leverage in that company to say such things and the project had already been running for a couple of years when I joined (not greenfield).

The last greenfield project which I managed from scratch, we didn't have this problem because all developers shared the same mental model of what we were building before we wrote any code. We had a lot of discussions beforehand to get to this shared understanding. There was literally not a single PR which surprised me throughout the entire project and I'm sure none of my PRs were a surprise to any of my team mates either. There was plenty of disagreement throughout but it was always fully resolved through discussion before we started coding each major feature.

Re:The Worst Programmer by nerdponx on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:16PM (#37362875)
In my experience it pops up when company politics get involved, or somebody gets attached to their idea about how certain things should or shouldn't be done. In that case often the safest thing you can do for your own reputation and appearance is to leave some very gentle notes that a certain thing maybe could have been done differently, but approve it anyway on the grounds that it works for now. That way you're not seen as an obstructionist, but if things do go wrong you at least have a written record so you can say "I told you so".
Re:The Worst Programmer by throwaway92837 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:54AM (#37362639)
Right. This is where you would think the AI assistance could play an important role:

Warning: it looks like you’re trying to pack too much crap into a single PR and your peers are unlikely to understand what they are accepting.

Re:The Worst Programmer by charamis on Saturday September 02, 2023 @07:46PM (#37366446)
The person who would ignore the reviewer’s recommendation in this case, would probably also ignore the AI’s as well.
Re:The Worst Programmer by hn72774 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:50PM (#37363199)
"You don't need to add an external dependency for that" "You're violating separation of concerns"

I've found that kind of feedback to be useful actually. And when giving similar feedback it is received better with a small change in wording to make it more about the code and not the person. Even if that is the intention the wording does matter. For example:

"An external dependency isn't needed here, try implementing with XYZ instead." "Split this function into x and y for better separation of concerns"

Removing the "you" removes some resistance to receiving the message .

Re:The Worst Programmer by ted_bunny on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:07PM (#37364504)
The imperative can rankle too. I like passive voice or "let's" statements.
Re:The Worst Programmer by AgentOrange1234 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:01PM (#37366817)
Yes always “we,” never “you.”

I’ve become fond of mostly asking questions.

I wonder if we could avoid this dependency? Maybe [idea] would work?

Can you see a way to separate the X concern into a module?

Can we split this function up a bit so the nesting won’t be so deep? Would this loop body make a good standalone function?

Re:The Worst Programmer by hn72774 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @10:05PM (#37376468)
Love this, it's the Socratic method and leads to a better path without telling someone "how" to do their job.
Re:The Worst Programmer by hnfong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:45PM (#37363742)
Somewhat unrelated, but it's true that it's sometimes hard to give a reason to reject code that has a "funny smell".

Without going into specifics, there was a case where I reviewed a PR, asking "this isn't usually how people do file operations, are you sure this is really fine?" To address my concerns, they even wrote a specific test program to "prove" that there weren't any problems with the code. I reluctantly approved the PR since I couldn't just ask them to rewrite the whole patch due to just a hunch.

Lo and behold, after a kernel upgrade and file system change, that weird piece of code caused a multi-week panic for the whole team. The extra funny thing is that the test program above made it trivial to confirm and reproduce the issue once we identified this was the cause.

Re:The Worst Programmer by closewith on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:22AM (#37362311)
In a remote world, can that person exist?
Re:The Worst Programmer by scruple on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:35AM (#37362448)
Yes and no, depends on the engineering culture and the management. I was successful in this sort of position as a full-time remote senior and then lead from 2016 til 2022. I changed employers and found myself in an environment that simply did not understand pairing, mentoring, etc. Management was oftentimes directly in the way, confused about loss of "velocity" and other trivial bullshit, despite the fact that the team was shipping in overdrive. I left at the start of this year and am now back in a position where these things are valued, encouraged, and happenel remotely.
Re:The Worst Programmer by dharmab on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:30AM (#37362391)
I am one of those people and work a fully remote job, but I had to earn that credibility with years of being a top contributor first. It would be difficult to just walk into the role.
Re:The Worst Programmer by scruple on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:45AM (#37362546)
I wrote a sibling comment alluding to the same, having been that person across a few different employers now. The struggles I had certainly, to a large degree, boiled down to a lack of trust (walking into a new team/department/company is hard on both sides!), but that wasn't the full story. IMO, management needs to have the right mindset to establish culture, too.
Re:The Worst Programmer by greenyouse on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:47AM (#37362560)
That would depend on the culture of your team and larger workplace. Healthy teams should be checking in frequently to talk about ideas, reviewing big things, scoping upcoming work, etc. If there's time reserved for deeply technical but loosely structured discussion like that, then everybody takes turns being that person. In that env someone could "specialize" in it and help inspire others to do great work.

It's the team that creates that kind of opportunity for feedback though. If the team has dysfunctions like rejecting deeper discussion or not working beyond jira tickets or checking out at meetings, etc. then it's not going to work. Someone that's good at that kind of supporting discussion will feel push back when fostering those discussions so it will fall off over time.

The teams that do the best work and are the most fun to be on can host those types of discussions though, even remotely. It's worth experiencing if you haven't!

Re:The Worst Programmer by mellavora on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:51AM (#37362611)
Yes.

I assume you mean the thoughtful person whose probing questions unlock and unblock everyone else.

Lunchtime conversation is only one enabler of this.

I suspect the person is Hamming, as he makes reference to this in his book The Art of Doing Science and Engineering.

This aspect of what it takes to be a Hamming is curiosity about what other people are doing; you can track this by reading shipped emails or lurking in slack channels, then reaching out individually to the people/teams involved when you wonder about something.

Hamming was intentional about doing this at lunch. The magic isn't lunch, it is in intentionally seeking the information and then acting on it.

Re:The Worst Programmer by Longlius on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:31PM (#37363605)
Yeah the main thing I've found helps is if there's a regular Teams/Zoom meeting where everyone just pops in for like 30 min to ask questions. Then you can use that as the springpad to launch into one-on-one sessions.

You do need to cultivate a culture in the team of people being willing to lower their guard and ask questions though. And I think the key to this is just staying humble so people feel comfortable approaching you.

Re:The Worst Programmer by 88913527 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:21AM (#37362302)
Because it's a bogus argument. The productive person doesn't need a paper weight at lunch to act as a shower thought generator. Management can get it wrong sometimes, but in broad strokes, they're right.
Re:The Worst Programmer by closewith on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:22AM (#37362316)
Maybe, or maybe human endeavour is more complex than individual efforts.
Re:The Worst Programmer by 88913527 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:41AM (#37362504)
It's tough, but what I've seen is low performers weigh the team down. They constantly ask for the high performer's time, and if we give them bug tickets, new feature work, they constantly stumble and always report status as blocked. They don't add value. They can't get to the finish line with anything. It's not a kind thing to point out, but trying to angle it as "oh there's this other benefit you're just not seeing" is trying to work around the fact they can't competently fulfill the job function after exhausting all of our options. They might be friendly people, but the social boosts doesn't counteract the losses incurred, it's still a net loss.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jodrellblank on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:48PM (#37363176)
You've turned the story round from "Tim MacKinnon is a good programmer and asset to the team which the simple metrics were not tracking" into the strawman "defend people who cant do their jobs and are not an asset to the team by claiming that they are nice people".
Re:The Worst Programmer by willcipriano on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:36AM (#37362451)
Idea people really overestimate their contributions.
Re:The Worst Programmer by mynameisvlad on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:12PM (#37362838)
Define "productive".

Because lins of code churned out is not and has never been a good measure of productivity.

That "shower thought generator" might very well be more productive than the person they're sitting next to churning out tens of thousands of lines of unmaintainable code if their shower thoughts are causing people to find better ways to solve a problem.

Which is basically the entire point of the article.

Re:The Worst Programmer by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:40PM (#37363097)
why? most code is not some complex algorithm where 100 lines of code can take years of genius work to figure out. Unit tests, for example, have near linear proportionality between LOC and utility. Same for comments, same for standard business logic.
Re:The Worst Programmer by naasking on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:49PM (#37363182)
100 lines of integration tests are worth a lot more than 100 lines of unit tests, so it's not a simple matter of counting LoC.

Also, solving the same problem with less code is a lot more valuable than many think. Not only are there fewer code paths to test, the system probably has fewer unnecessary constraints and edge cases to consider. How do you account for negative LoC?

Re:The Worst Programmer by mynameisvlad on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:24PM (#37363523)
I can whip out 100 lines of bullshit in a few seconds. I can just paste in whatever Copilot gives me and as long as it builds call it a day.

It will take me far longer to come up with the correct 100 lines that is both maintainable and can be worked on by others down the line.

I can pad my lines of code in seconds if I wanted to before pushing the changes. That padding provides no business value and might even introduce bugs.

And how do you handle refactoring? If I come in and refactor everyone else's shitty padding by combining helpers and optimizing code, I'll have negative lines of code. Am I an unproductive worker?

Sure, most code is not some complex algorithm but lines of code is a stupid metric that is not representative of the work done and can be gamed by anyone knowing what they're doing.

Re:The Worst Programmer by manicennui on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:13PM (#37365106)
Nonsense. Most people write pretty useless unit tests. Gotta get that test "coverage" high though!
Re:The Worst Programmer by astrange on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:58PM (#37365891)
Unit tests are useful if you write them alongside new code, but then become not useful since if you never change the code, they never break, and so are wasteful.

It's better to have tests more sensitive to failure, like integration or regression tests.

Re:The Worst Programmer by no_wizard on Saturday September 02, 2023 @07:36PM (#37366392)
They’re still valid even if you aren’t changing code.

The key there is caching your results. Don’t run unit tests for code that hasn’t changed.

They still serve the important purpose of checking validity of the code under test though, so if they do get modified downstream at some point and they fail you then know the changes aren’t conforming to expectations of the system.

This of course assumes people aren’t writing highly coupled tests and that is more rare than I wish it to be

Re:The Worst Programmer by 88913527 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:24PM (#37362946)
It's more about measuring outcomes. We have a goal, did we meet the goal. There are many paths to the goal, so measuring things like lines of code is incorrect. But so is measuring Bob's ability to ask Alice a good question. Management can't, at scale, consider such factors. We don't have the counterfactual where Bob didn't ask the questions, and Alice did great anyways. Performance reviews would become even more subjective if we had to place a value on the impact of asking questions. All forms of measurement are flawed, so I stick with outcomes.
Re:The Worst Programmer by alwaysbeconsing on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:42PM (#37363120)
The part that's often missed is the future outcome, when someone returns to this code to fix a bug or add a new feature. I believe it's incumbent upon those of us with some experience to ensure maintainability is part of the considerations.
Re:The Worst Programmer by mynameisvlad on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:34PM (#37363055)
> Management can't, at scale, consider such factors.

Why not? Peer feedback is a prime component of most performance/rewards discussions at companies. Work outside of points is certainly not a new concept. A manager's job is to distill this information amongst others to their own management chain at the right time.

> We don't have the counterfactual where Bob didn't ask the questions, and Alice did great anyways.

Bob's time isn't unlimited. There are surely instances where he was helping out Joe, Suzie, Darren, and James and had no time for Alice.

Based on your other comment, you seem to think someone being an unblocker/idea generator/dev lead is a "low performer" who weighs the team down. That's just fundamentally wrong.

Re:The Worst Programmer by 88913527 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:49PM (#37363183)
It isn't wrong, it's right; because pontification of things (in a vacuum) yields no results. I cannot sell my customers Bob's ideas. All I can sell them is software that does something. The people that can do this without needing Bobs around are the people that will be rewarded.
Re:The Worst Programmer by mynameisvlad on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:07PM (#37363353)
Well that software you sell them is fundamentally better and more maintanble because a person like Bob is around to give directions.

> The people that can do this without needing Bobs around are the people that will be rewarded.

Unicorns are few and far between, but sure, you do you.

Re:The Worst Programmer by manicennui on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:12PM (#37365092)
Quickly shipping a thousand lines of buggy code that you then spend the next month fixing (by writing thousands more lines of code) is a good way to fool everyone into thinking you are productive.
Re:The Worst Programmer by datavirtue on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:49AM (#37362590)
Yeah, you have to do it all. Churn out stories AND mentor AND knock down "desk-side" work (random infra bullshit). I have been at big companies where no one lasts very long. Thier mental health suffers to a point where they have to leave so that they can go work at some other sweatshop for a while. The lull between giving their notice and the honeymoon at the new company is their only break.
Re:The Worst Programmer by tempodox on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:56AM (#37362662)
The saddest thing is that some bosses want throwaway code. I had a short stint once in a company where the owner wanted the web service rewritten from scratch every 6 months so they could use the newest web framework and follow the current fashion. He would hire a 5000 LoC per week hero on the spot.
Re:The Worst Programmer by andai on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:11PM (#37362833)
Tangential but I was doing a web app for a client and gave a time estimate, which accounted for doing things properly (i.e. learning a frontend framework first).

He asked "can you do it faster" and I agreed, thinking I'll make a throwaway version first and fix it later. Needless to say the project was a disaster, rapidly became unmaintainable.

That's how I learned my job isn't to do what the client asks, it's to make sure their project succeeds even if it means making them (temporarily) unhappy.

Re:The Worst Programmer by nine_zeros on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:22PM (#37362927)
> That's how I learned my job isn't to do what the client asks, it's to make sure their project succeeds even if it means making them (temporarily) unhappy.

And I learned that doing it my way will get me fired because the manager has asked to do faster.

The way I have learned to get around this is by making the manager publicly document the request to go faster. If they don't document, I don't see or act on it. Once they document it, I happily go faster and let it all crash and burn. Then when they inevitably try to blame me, I point at the public documentation of the request to go faster and let the blame fall on the person responsible.

Re:The Worst Programmer by jareklupinski on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:25PM (#37363540)
that's great for covering your a, but the project will still fail and no one will get value / praise for all that time spent

if time is the only actual concern for the project's success, a good approach is to explicitly re-scope the feature list and start asking managers things like:

"do we really need feature X to release? can feature Y wait until after beta? did the request for feature Z come from a user or a stakeholder?"

document all that too of course ;) but then at least there is a chance for safety _and_ success

Re:The Worst Programmer by nine_zeros on Saturday September 02, 2023 @07:46PM (#37366443)
> that's great for covering your a, but the project will still fail and no one will get value / praise for all that time spent

Yes the project will fail. But if my manager only cares about speed, why should I care about anything more? Why should an engineer be responsible for a manager's poor decisions?

Re:The Worst Programmer by CapstanRoller on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:32PM (#37367229)
>Why should an engineer be responsible for a manager's poor decisions?

Because the corporate hierarchy demands it. Front-line workers are expendable, much like front-line soldiers. Corporations are not democracies, and neither are militaries.

If your job is to write and commit code, you are the corporate equivalent of infantry. In short: a grunt.

Re:The Worst Programmer by nine_zeros on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:07AM (#37369413)
> your job is to write and commit code, you are the corporate equivalent of infantry. In short: a grunt.

And if I am being treated as a grunt, I will act like a grunt aka I don't care more than my bosses. I will even abandon ship at the sign of incompetence and point out the incompetence to others.

Re:The Worst Programmer by jonathanlydall on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:35PM (#37363645)
This sounds like possible malicious compliance.

Regardless, it’s an important life skill to learn that it’s generally not enough to ask people to do what you want, you need them to actually “buy in” to what you want, and then they’ll actually care enough to at least try make it happen.

This applies to managers and their employees, or also when trying to get on the ground employees to adopt a product initially sold to their manager/execs.

Re:The Worst Programmer by nine_zeros on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:07PM (#37363971)
"Buy in" is what you use for people acting in good faith. But managers aren't acting in good faith. They just want it done so that they look good to their own bosses. They don't actually care about the product/service. Their ask to "go faster" is a bad faith argument where there is no real need to go faster except for the manager to look good.

I don't feel the need to get "buy in" for bad faith managers.

Re:The Worst Programmer by cjaybo on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:04PM (#37364480)
> but managers aren’t acting in good faith

An overly broad statement which, my experience, is not true. Managers come in many shapes.

Although, I suppose ironically, if you act in bad faith as a response to this perception, then I think that perception will quickly become true.

Re:The Worst Programmer by gremlinunderway on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:20PM (#37365622)
Why is asking for requests to be in writing an "act of bad faith"? Literally cna't see a single outcome that would be an act of bad faith here.

If the project fails, and the manager tries to blame it on you, they are de facto acting out of bad faith given the request. Documenting it just identifies this. If the project succeeds or fails, but no one blames you, then the documented request is just there for the record.

Re:The Worst Programmer by ebiester on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:42PM (#37363124)
It depends on “when” along the timeline of the project.

If we don’t know if anyone will want the product, the quality of the product is less valuable than validation of product market fit.

Later, I care much more about avoiding accidental complexity and having a great technical foundation.

Re:The Worst Programmer by tilne on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:09PM (#37365944)
But you can’t have the technical foundation later because you’ve already built on something else.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jen20 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:32PM (#37366965)
Sure you can - you just have to be willing to throw what you have away. If the outcome of that is having to rewrite one of five experiments because it is a hit, that is a _great success_, not a failure.
Re:The Worst Programmer by tempodox on Sunday September 03, 2023 @04:32AM (#37368739)
But only in theory. In practice you would never get the time to rewrite what “already works”. And objectively, even with the best intentions, every rewrite comes with its own kinds of risks.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jen20 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @12:19PM (#37371619)
Perhaps not at the kind of shop that deserves to go out of business. I do this literally every day from function snippets to entire systems.
Re:The Worst Programmer by adolph on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:13PM (#37363407)
> where the owner wanted the web service rewritten from scratch every 6 months so they could use the newest web framework and follow the current fashion

This sounds like an improvement over the opposite, a code base that is rarely touched and uses eol frameworks. Software is a living thing and if you don’t act as a ruthless gardener you wind up a museum curator with 1990s DEC hardware running in the 2010’s.

The right balance of staying current and not reinventing the wheel is not trivial.

Re:The Worst Programmer by hnfong on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:38PM (#37363673)
If you choose the right frameworks which have sufficient momentum to last you say 10 years, you don't have to put yourself in the dilemma.

And yes, 10 years is quite possible these days. Besides the infamous Javascript framework churn, things are moving quite a bit slower in recent years.

Re:The Worst Programmer by adolph on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:55PM (#37364944)
“If you choose the right frameworks” is a big if. Even within a framework, there is versioning and dependency management to account for. Consider the log4j vulnerability. The cost and risk of patching something untouched for 10 years is higher than something touched more recently.

In part, this is due to the risks inherent to change have been spread out over 10 years instead of backloaded to the end.

Practicing mitigating risks by proactively taking them has value of its own. The parable of ergodic cakes shows this.[0] What % of cakes will fail if 10 people each bake one, versus one person baking 10 over time?

https://luca-dellanna.com/what-is-ergodicity/

Re:The Worst Programmer by kagevf on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:44PM (#37365373)
> Besides the infamous Javascript framework churn

reactjs came out in 2013, so it meets the 10y metric, but it has some internal churn, such as classes, hooks, etc

Re:The Worst Programmer by bitwize on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:01PM (#37364453)
Hey, if the 1990s DEC hardware still works, and it'd be more expensive to change it...

There are PDP-11s running nuclear plants today with support contracts to keep them running until 2050.

PDP-11s.

Re:The Worst Programmer by adolph on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:13PM (#37365110)
That is a great example. By not taking account of risk on the front end by embracing change, the system gets progressively more expensive to maintain (extended support contracts) and the risk of eventual inevitable change grows higher. Further, the system becomes progressively less valuable compared with newer systems.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jen20 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:34PM (#37366970)
> becomes progressively less valuable compared with newer systems.

Indeed, business people do not typically model depreciation curves for software as they should. That doesn't mean that the plant control system becomes less valuable (the value is tied to the operation of the plant, probably for the lifetime of the plant), but in many other situations it does mean that.

Re:The Worst Programmer by 3np on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:01PM (#37362719)
On an individual level: So what? I stopped giving a f. I'd rather do what I believe is right than earn another $100k a year at a certain point. If it gets to the point of being laid off, hey, maybe it's the nudge you needed to find a better place anyway. Meanwhile, you could play the game all you want and still have your entire business unit shuffled away next year.

I'm not going to drive off a cliff just because the OKR tells me there's actually a road there but I wonder about some people...

Re:The Worst Programmer by nine_zeros on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:02PM (#37362735)
> It sucks being that person today because everything is about optics and that person will get purged. I know from experience.

This is my company. Engineer skills, tech-debt, teamwork, camaraderie don't matter. Do as the management says, in the time they've promised to others or else....

Re:The Worst Programmer by andai on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:07PM (#37362792)
Re:The Worst Programmer by ZeroClickOk on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:07PM (#37363965)
nice, thanks for the link
Re:The Worst Programmer by AStellersSeaCow on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:14PM (#37362860)
Depends on the company and management. Google codifies this role to some extent as Tech Lead, which is an engineer expected to act as a force multiplier and mentor more than an individual contributor.

It doesn't always work as designed (ok, maybe rarely works as designed), and TLs can get too bogged down in cat herding, planning, and bike shedding to actually work as an engineer. But at least the spirit of the role is sound.

Re:The Worst Programmer by TheRealPomax on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:05PM (#37363342)
It also doesn't get people promoted to that position just because that's what they're doing. Because politics.
Re:The Worst Programmer by Arainach on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:31PM (#37363607)
My experience at Google has been that TLs were generally strong engineers who were doing that kind of mentorship and product leadership, so to the degree that it's a "promotion" (same money, more responsibility isn't a promo in my book) it does seem to go to those who are doing it.

Now TLM (Tech Lead + Manager), however......there's a role that's set up for failure. Be a manager but be judged entirely on your technical contributions.

Re:The Worst Programmer by nobodyandproud on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:25PM (#37365205)
I have to manage up, gently, reminding my manager and his peers that we’re managers first.

Any meaningful contribution or engineering is extra credit.

Re:The Worst Programmer by AdrianB1 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:21PM (#37365635)
Is that a higher level position ("promoted" suggests that)? In my FMCG IT department I am the TL & "technical architect", but I am on the same level as a senior developer, just having in the top 3 priorities the coaching and mentorship of all technical people in the department and no code expected (I do write some as examples or templates). What is the TL level in Google vs developers and architects?
Re:The Worst Programmer by Arainach on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:08PM (#37367111)
No different. TLs are Software Engineers in title, track, compensation, and performance reviews. Most TLs are L5/6 (Senior or Staff).
Re:The Worst Programmer by whstl on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:42PM (#37364841)
Tech Lead is a very difficult role. :/

If you are immature or competitive, you cease being a force multiplier to be a morale destroyer.

If you are more of a domain expert than your Product Managers, you will spend your time fighting and refining tasks to build features the right way.

If you don't have enough time to code, you'll go obsolete.

Re:The Worst Programmer by onion2k on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:43PM (#37365794)
I'm the frontend lead in a company of about 200 people (mostly devs) these days, and the idea of being a force multiplier is spot on. I'm not there to be the best dev or the most knowledgable; I'm there to lead the conversation and amplify people who are saying good things. Having a pretty deep understanding of the tech is useful so I can tell what those good things are. I am absolutely not in the company to show off or take credit for what my teams do.

Where I disagree is with the idea of fighting with product owners. If there's a disagreement around approach or tech choices that's a sign we don't have enough information. Fighting or refining won't solve that. It's a signal that we need to do more discovery work and understand the problem better.

Re:The Worst Programmer by whstl on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:06PM (#37365925)
I never said one should be fighting. My point is that POs/PMs should know the domain at least as much about the domain as TLs do.

The problem is not needing discovery work or understanding the problem. The problem is when the Tech Lead is the one who's providing all the data for that discovery, or helping them understand the problem better, because of lack of expertise of PO/PM. Or having to push back because of incomplete knowledge.

If there is lack of information or incorrect information, POs should be able to get that information themselves. If a TL is the sole source of that info, then it becomes an issue.

IME this is very common. And it takes too much time of a Tech Lead's day.

Re:The Worst Programmer by 3np on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:50PM (#37366173)
Domain expert, not tech expert
Re:The Worst Programmer by jen20 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:27PM (#37366942)
> If you are more of a domain expert than your Product Managers, you will spend your time fighting and refining tasks to build features the right way.

If you are more of a domain expert than the product managers, argue for the product managers to be fired - they serve no purpose.

Re:The Worst Programmer by mlhpdx on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:02PM (#37365012)
The TL role is a little restrictive IMHO. I’ve worked with very junior people who have a very effective ability to pair and improve others’ effectiveness. Perhaps as they learn they also teach.
Re:The Worst Programmer by teirce on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:29PM (#37365689)
This was my experience as well. It's completely up to management to recognize these kinds of engineers regardless of role name or leveling.
Re:The Worst Programmer by Aperocky on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:38PM (#37363083)
> I tend to think that the dev who can churn out thousands of lines isn't thinking deeply enough about the long term direction of the project; all the code they're writing is essentially throwaway code.

This is a strong statement. There are both people who are writing throwaway code and people who are writing essential code that match the description.

And one will never get to be the latter part without going through a phase where they are doing the first.

Re:The Worst Programmer by legends2k on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:51PM (#37363206)
> one will never get to be the latter part without going through a phase where they are doing the first.

The parent comment doesn't contest this. I think it's about the throwaway code author being valued more than the other.

Re:The Worst Programmer by cratermoon on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:45PM (#37363148)
> Managers always love a developer who can consistently write 5000+ lines per code per week

Managers love metrics. There's nothing wrong with metrics, of course. It's when metrics become targets that things fall apart.

https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...

Re:The Worst Programmer by l33t7332273 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:05PM (#37363341)
>Managers always love a developer who can consistently write 5000+ lines per code per week

What managers care about this at all?

Re:The Worst Programmer by goalieca on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:37PM (#37363661)
5000 lines is silly, but all managers love that coder who closes tickets faster than anyone.
Re:The Worst Programmer by no_wizard on Saturday September 02, 2023 @07:23PM (#37366333)
If they can keep them closed.

One sign I see if a healthy workplace is one that tracks bugs and QA issues downstream against the same unit of work.

You quickly get a sense for what teams and even individuals are introducing the most bugs and issues.

If you can close tickets fast and your bug rate is low: that’s key, but I have found often that the people introducing the most bugs and issues into the codebase that others have to spend time dealing with are those that seemingly close their tickets rapidly every sprint

Re:The Worst Programmer by DiabloD3 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:10PM (#37363377)
The ones that work at companies that promote incompetence.

You know, most companies.

Re:The Worst Programmer by hinkley on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:57PM (#37363848)
The first project I was on that hit half a million lines of code, 2/3 of it was generated. It was a bit ridiculous.
Re:The Worst Programmer by beebmam on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:38PM (#37363677)
If your leadership is tossing these incredibly valuable engineers aside, then it's time for you to toss that leadership out. You can do that by leaving, or talking to management about this, or unionizing. It's crazy to me tech workers aren't unionizing anyway.
Re:The Worst Programmer by b800h on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:55PM (#37363833)
I prescribe a viewing of "Carry On at your Convenience" to cure that sentiment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carry_On_at_Your_Convenience

Re:The Worst Programmer by Pamar on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:01PM (#37363892)
(I am from Europe, so I have a fairly good idea of what Unions can do, also thanks to having lived and worked in two different countries).

I am not against Unionizing "per se" but the role of Unions has never been "tell the management how to run their business". There has been some cases of (smallish) company being "acquired" by their own workforce, and the Unions might have helped with formalizing the deal, but this is rare, and anyway happens only when the company goes bankrupt or decides to shut down.

So I do not understand exactly what you mean here.

Re:The Worst Programmer by CapitalistCartr on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:20PM (#37365158)
A union would provide the sort of employment protections much of Europe alreadys enjoys.
Re:The Worst Programmer by Pamar on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:48AM (#37370402)
I know how Unions work. The OP stated: ...it's time for you to toss that leadership out. You can do that by leaving, or talking to management about this, or unionizing.

A Union can organize and sustain a strike. But they cannot "toss leadership out". Not the CEO, the Board or any manager at any level.

They could theorethically "blackmail" a company saying "strike will not end until X is fired" where X is a PM or manager or whatever but I never really heard of anyone trying this tactic, not to say actually succeed...

Re:The Worst Programmer by no_wizard on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:23PM (#37365186)
Unfortunately union / labor movements in the US suffer from a big problem: due to historical circumstances they’re very combative. The labor movement here never grafted the idea of being business oriented on behalf of workers into the movement (like in Germany) rather, they treat the business as the enemy pretty much from the outset.

Some of that is indeed earned by the businesses reputation, but ultimately this is what I think spurred the decline of union membership in the US because businesses don’t get a lot if any value out of having a union around and the organized workers often find the benefits stagnant after some time

Re:The Worst Programmer by astrange on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:50PM (#37365834)
That is because of historical circumstances, but it continues to this day because it's encoded in the law; we don't have codetermination or sectoral bargaining.
Re:The Worst Programmer by hyperhopper on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:57PM (#37373218)
Police unions are very business oriented. And they might be the most successful unions
Re:The Worst Programmer by jokethrowaway on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:36PM (#37364211)
Unions always end up doing more evil than good costing money to everybody involved. It's political bullshit.

It's been a net negative to workers for ages. All my blue collar friends hate them.

Besides, developers have power in the market, they can negotiate quite a bit without paying money to some political useless figures.

Re:The Worst Programmer by lostlogin on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:31PM (#37364737)
Re:The Worst Programmer by SeanLuke on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:38PM (#37364813)
I have seen first-hand the negatives of unions in Italy: there are downsides of powerful union control. But in the US, a strong argument can be made that unions played a very major part (along with the GI Bill of course) in the growth of the the middle class from 1950 to 1980, and their busting, starting with Reagan, likewise was instrumental in the dwindling of the middle class and the dramatic rise in wealth inequality.
Re:The Worst Programmer by zlg_codes on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:08PM (#37365059)
Unions may be different in your part of the world. In America, it's one of the only ways for blue collar or other production-oriented workers to have any degree of leverage at the negotiation table. We are treated like cattle in the workplace, and though unions come with their fair share of problems (due to it being yet another leadership structure to work within), the idea of workers holding power as a group is essential, because it reflects reality. None of that VC money is getting a return without workers to do the work. Most places in America are not unionized, but the ones that do pay better than other work in the area, even after union dues.

I see it as very much a union-by-union thing, much like you would an employer.

Now, some programmers may be able to negotiate good terms for themselves, but the vast majority of that stage is simply how silver your tongue is. Why should you be paid better because you got a better charisma roll with the interviewer? I would want my coworkers to be paid the same as me for the same experience. A senior with 10 years in the field, naturally, would be paid much more.

It's strange you say developers can negotiate, when there've been quite a few layoffs as of late and we see plenty of stories of people having trouble staying in tech. Which is it? The only thing that can give you credible sway is learning rarer or more in-demand skills, and putting together projects that show you understand how to use them. And for how long will that last? A union is a lot harder to fight than an individual.

But yes, there are bad unions. If they're as bad as your alleged blue collar friends say, let's name them! Sometimes their politics or dues or seniority system sucks. Those systems deserve to be put on blast.

But strangely, no unions listed in your comment as bad.

Re:The Worst Programmer by gemstones on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:46PM (#37365809)
It’s funny you mention it as a charisma roll, because it’s not really a roll, is it? High charisma is high when it’s with your interviewer, when it’s with your peers, when it’s with your business stakeholders. High charisma is useful in getting a job, in arguing for addressing tech debt, in pushing back on unreasonable timelines. Why would you not consider charisma in a job interview?
Re:The Worst Programmer by astrange on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:52PM (#37365842)
Why should you have to spend your time on being charismatic with your own management if your job duties require doing it with everyone but them?
Re:The Worst Programmer by zlg_codes on Sunday September 03, 2023 @03:42AM (#37368498)
Charisma isn't something that's there or not there for everyone, like green paint. How you come across to others will differ based on their biases.

I don't consider charisma very much because I connect it to dishonesty. If someone's put a lot of effort into coming across as charismatic, it means they have considerable skill in psychological and social manipulation. I would value that in a salesman, where it makes sense. Otherwise it's just masking 2.0.

The primary concerns in an interview should be "can you do the job" and "can we bear to work with you". The rest can be worked with.

Re:The Worst Programmer by jacobsenscott on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:36PM (#37364784)
When you can get a bootcamp certificate, and then get two remote jobs and coast at both for 12 months, and then repeat, what could a union do for you?
Re:The Worst Programmer by fn-mote on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:11PM (#37367128)
Are you currently doing this? Living in an expensive region like Western Europe/North America? If this first or second hand, let's hear more about it.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jacobsenscott on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @06:52PM (#37412526)
Second hand - but there are subreddits all about it. People are doing it.
Re:The Worst Programmer by Sivart13 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:10PM (#37365557)
A union doesn’t have the power to change management, and is just as likely to advocate to retain low performing ICs in the name of “solidarity”
Re:The Worst Programmer by droopyEyelids on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:39PM (#37363684)
This is the “sorting hat” the makes sure that person ends up at the right company.

Its not fun to lose your job, but that can be better than being stuck just getting by at a company where your work isnt appreciated.

Re:The Worst Programmer by closeparen on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:17PM (#37364046)
I don’t know. I’ve met several people who see themselves like this and who are seen by senior leadership as being like this, but nothing they say tracks, even a little bit, with what I know about the system and problem space from my time actually immersed in working on it.
Re:The Worst Programmer by mike_ivanov on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:24PM (#37364102)
Given that DRY is out of fashion, 2000 lines of code per week looks pretty modest.
Re:The Worst Programmer by 8n4vidtmkvmk on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:31PM (#37364167)
I love writing code. I usually "score" on the higher end for LoC which managers like to praise me for while simultaneously saying LoC isn't everything but there aren't many good measures. Lol. But! In my defense, I delete as much code as possible. Love deleting code. Not sure if that counts in the LoC. I see lots of others copy and pasting and leaving little bombs everywhere. I refactor, clean, delete. So.. hopefully my LoC is mostly that and not adding fluff.
Re:The Worst Programmer by arrjayh on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:48PM (#37364315)
I'm working through this exact situation right now, I really appreciate this insight!
Re:The Worst Programmer by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:51PM (#37364347)
> There is a very good chance that the same feature set could have been implemented with just 10K lines of code, less buggy and in half the time

A significant part of my personal code review process, is going back through my code, and factoring out complexity. It takes time and humility, but is very much, in my opinion, worth it.

Documenting my code is a trick that helps. When I am writing why I did something, I sometimes reflect, and say to myself "Didn't I just do this a few lines back?"

My code tends to be complex, by necessity, but it should be no more complex than absolutely needed.

A big, big tool for that, is OOP inheritance, which is considered "bad coder" smell, these days.

Re:The Worst Programmer by Chris_Newton on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:09PM (#37364525)
A big, big tool for that, is OOP inheritance, which is considered "bad coder" signal, these days.

Is it? I’d agree that there’s increasing awareness of the limitations of OOP, and I’d agree that using inheritance excessively can be one of the limiting factors, but I don’t think I’ve ever personally seen anyone criticised or penalised for using inheritance appropriately.

Re:The Worst Programmer by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:25PM (#37364675)
Just using OOP is considered bad. There is no "appropriate" way to use OOP. I see people being criticized for that, all the time.

I have run into folks that don't understand polymorphism. It seems that it is not even being taught.

Old Boomer Yells at Sky

Re:The Worst Programmer by 3np on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:34PM (#37375672)
[delayed]
Re:The Worst Programmer by ChrisMarshallNY on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:58PM (#37376432)
Well, to each their own. I like to understand everything I do, at a very deep level, and I really enjoy learning that kind of stuff. I started as an EE, so my understanding sinks down into the FET junction. My first software was machine code, so it’s been a long, strange trip.

One thing that geeks love doing, is telling other geeks they are bad at what they do. It gets a bit grating, but I’ve come to the realization that I need be true to myself, because it’s a losing proposition, hanging my self-respect on the opinions of others.

I do what I do, and get the results I get. I don’t spend much time, worrying about how I compare to others.

One of the benefits of working at the direction of my own muse.

Re:The Worst Programmer by 3np on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:48AM (#37377205)
It's good that you know and understand things at a deeper level.

That should make you even better equipped to design simple interfaces that require as little depth of understanding as possible from the next person.

Similarly I've happily spent my couple of years with functional purity and higher-level types in academic languages - function signatures sometimes orders of magnitude longer than the implementation itself - yet I dip into those depths only as necessary and try to keep my TypeScript interfaces as "stupid" as I can get away with without compromising on semantics. Enums are too fancy for me. I try to keep state at minimum but there's a 'let' every few thousand lines or so.

And all that venturing into lower-level concurrent C++, agent systems, parallel programming, erlang? You ain't gonna know about any of that looking at my concurrent Rust.

> One of the benefits of working at the direction of my own muse.

Oh, well, what I'm writing above is from the point of code meant for collaboration - either open source or professionally. If you're coding for yourself only, or in academia, by all means stop trying to please the crowd and start cranking out some poetry!

Re:The Worst Programmer by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday September 04, 2023 @08:43AM (#37379954)
Not quite the "poetry" level, but it's 99.9% sure that the schmuck that will be maintaining my code will be Yours Troolie.

I write code that I want to see in a year.

You can see my documentation philosophy in this treatise: https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/leaving-a-legacy/

Re:The Worst Programmer by no_wizard on Saturday September 02, 2023 @07:27PM (#37366351)
Some of that is the fact industry never really evolved OOP approaches and they tended to trend to toward heavy and complex. Peers aren’t great with the power OOP can have.

I’ve also seen composition go sideways too.

Sometimes it feels like nobody takes software engineering seriously anymore, if I’m being honest

Re:The Worst Programmer by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday September 02, 2023 @07:33PM (#37366382)
Yeah, I remember that "Write a story. The nouns are objects, and the verbs are methods." school of thought.

I never warmed to that. In my experience, it resulted in unholy messes.

Re:The Worst Programmer by yourapostasy on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:18PM (#37364597)
This is why software craftsmanship is rarely recognized. When you build with craftsmanship so features are easy and fast to add on top of what you built because you thoughtfully the most likely ramifications of the current requirements within reason, operational excellence is easy to accomplish because you sat down with front line operators and took the time to understand their incentives and daily operations pain points from a first-person perspective, and so on, you aren’t the one who is recognized with the commensurate credit, those who benefit from your work in the future are the ones who grab the limelight as if they did your work, unless the leadership are themselves highly technical (and many times, not even then). Incentives currently in most of my clients are mostly aligned to the fulfillment of keywords and not an outcome.

“Produce a procedure documentation” gets keyword fulfilled into “here is a document with some steps”, instead of “here is a procedure we wrote, used spelling and grammar checker upon [I’m still shocked so few take the few seconds to correct as they go], run through an automated editor, then iterated through random people from the user population until someone who never saw it before accomplishes the procedure without assistance”.

Some startups succeed because they’re forced into conscientiously thinking through these ramifications in just the right contexts because they’re so close to the coal face. It is also possible to overdo this in the wrong context and end up bikeshedding.

Re:The Worst Programmer by Gibbon1 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:10PM (#37365080)
Friends of mine worked at a place were they got a rock star programmer that churned out thousands of lines of code a week. And they eventually found themselves relegated to the role of cleaning up the mess. So they all quit.
Re:The Worst Programmer by sshine on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:04PM (#37365508)
> sucks being that person today because everything is about optics

Not everywhere. I’ve casually suggested five big changes to the startup I’m currently working for that others ran with. I’m proud that my ideas even make sense, and my reward is that others come to me for leadership. I would get more glory if I had also carried them out. But I’d rather do the things that others can’t, than what shines the most.

> 2000 lines of code per week terrifies me... That's over 100K lines of code a year

That would be incredible (and scary). But productive people I’ve seen the contributor metrics for who write vastly more than they read, still have a number of deleted lines growing with their added lines in some proportion.

There is a style of less re-use, more copy-pasting that just grows faster but also needs constant refactoring in trivial ways.

Re:The Worst Programmer by yodsanklai on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:20PM (#37365624)
> That's over 100K lines of code a year. Think of the unnecessary complexity.

I've got a colleague like that. It's all good and management praises him, but this is a time ticking bomb. When he leaves, someone will have to maintain that code.

Re:The Worst Programmer by vGPU on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:20PM (#37365630)
I could be brief.

Or I could elaborate, expound, simplify, and expand my solution.

It depends what I’m getting paid for.

If I’m getting paid for lines of code, guess who’s going to re-implement functions that could have been a single line of code?

Why bother writing a loop function when I could just copy-paste the same code as many times as needed?

Turning one line of code into 3,000 - easy.

Turning 1,000 lines into 100 - that’s when you know you’re working with a professional.

Re:The Worst Programmer by benreesman on Saturday September 02, 2023 @05:35PM (#37365733)
You’re largely correct but I think your comment might not nail the root cause (not saying you don’t know this, just that your comment doesn’t emphasize it).

When a market is competitive, the things that matter are roughly: hard work, candlepower, and optics/neurotypicality/maneuver in that order.

When a market is fairly sewn up that order becomes roughly: optics, candlepower, ethical flexibility, hard work in that order.

The hard-ass nerds who don’t give a shit about corporate culture du jour are treated like royalty when someone might fuck your business up.

While “purged” is a strong word, I take your meaning, and whatever we want to call it, it happens when competition is largely pro-forma.

Human beings will do anything to avoid selecting on merit except lose. That’s just human nature. Being mad about it is like yelling at the wind, but compared to even a decade ago, I’m not sure how high I’d be holding my head in today’s competitive landscape for high-prestige achievement.

Re:The Worst Programmer by varispeed on Saturday September 02, 2023 @06:25PM (#37366040)
I worked at companies where de facto lines of code were a metric of performance. Then when I moved to first company where "how" was more important I had a heavy anxiety where I didn't write a line of code for a couple of weeks. I was worried I'll get fired. We were just having meetings and just talking about problem at hand and throwing ideas, without actually trying to implement anything. Then when the ideas how to tackle the problem matured, we would try to turn it into code, like a proof of concept thing (tested with people looking for solution) which could be thrown away. Eventually we would get the solution to the problem and most of the time it was flawless. In the code heavy approach, company would have ton of bugs, support requests, fixes on top of fixes, sometimes it turned out the feature was misunderstood, but it was already so embedded in the system, it was difficult to remove. So things were piling on. The other approach? Boring. We had some bugs here and there, usually when something was not covered by the tests or some edge case we didn't think of. But I never forget the anxiety...
Re:The Worst Programmer by baby on Saturday September 02, 2023 @08:06PM (#37366562)
I want to frame this comment somewhere
Re:The Worst Programmer by dang on Saturday September 02, 2023 @08:55PM (#37366783)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37362066. (There's nothing wrong with it but it's a bit generic and I'm trying to make the thread less top-heavy.)
Re:The Worst Programmer by Erikun on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:23AM (#37362331)
It might be from the great book The Idea Factory by Jon Gertner (p 135).

  'In the midst of Shannon’s career, some lawyers in the patent department at Bell Labs decided to study whether there was an organizing principle that could explain why certain individuals at the Labs were more productive than others. They discerned only one common thread: Workers with the most patents often shared lunch or breakfast with a Bell Labs electrical engineer named Harry Nyquist. It wasn’t the case that Nyquist gave them specific ideas. Rather, as one scientist recalled, “he drew people out, got them thinking.” More than anything, Nyquist asked good questions.'
Re:The Worst Programmer by avanai on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:35AM (#37362442)
The most impressive thing about this story is that they figured out the answer. They did the research, and nailed down that it was Nyquist who was was the productivity booster. It’s the exact opposite of the OP’s story, where management tried to fire the Nyquist-equivalent.
Re:The Worst Programmer by Tarq0n on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:43PM (#37363131)
They found an answer that felt right to them. The reseachers weren't blinded to the context they were working in, and their hypothesis is essentially unfalsifiable so I would take it with a grain of salt.
Re:The Worst Programmer by Strilanc on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:24PM (#37363524)
Honestly, I'm kind of skeptical of the answer. I'm not saying that talking with Nyquist wouldn't be useful, probably it was, but what's stopping a dozen other things at least that useful from being part of the answer?
Re:The Worst Programmer by jacquesm on Sunday September 03, 2023 @01:29AM (#37367949)
> I'm not saying that talking with Nyquist wouldn't be useful

No, you probably shouldn't be saying that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Nyquist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_frequency

> but what's stopping a dozen other things at least that useful from being part of the answer?

Because someone needs to act, and that's exactly what Nyquist did, in a very unobtrusive and non-confrontational manner.

Re:The Worst Programmer by edgyquant on Sunday September 03, 2023 @12:10PM (#37371544)
Posting his achievements does nothing to prove speaking with him during lunch was useful in this context

> Because someone needs to act, and that's exactly what Nyquist did, in a very unobtrusive and non-confrontational manner

Seems like your headcanon. It reality they ate lunch together and passed ideas around.

Re:The Worst Programmer by Strilanc on Sunday September 03, 2023 @03:34PM (#37373584)
For the record, I did recognize the name. That's why I believed talking to them was useful.
Re:The Worst Programmer by OJFord on Sunday September 03, 2023 @05:24PM (#37374762)
Concretely I'd suggest that Nyquist was probably most interested in lunching with other smart people who had interesting things to talk about.

I.e. there's no check or control on their output without lunch or breakfast with him, maybe it'd have been little different.

Re:The Worst Programmer by liquidpele on Saturday September 02, 2023 @03:55PM (#37364939)
All they figured out was that the smart people hung out together.
Re:The Worst Programmer by sound1 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @04:56PM (#37365454)
IMHO this is the right answer :)
Re:The Worst Programmer by solumunus on Sunday September 03, 2023 @11:56AM (#37371411)
It’s a lovely story but a prime candidate for “correlation !== causation”.
Re:The Worst Programmer by jamestimmins on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:41AM (#37362505)
Yeah that's the one! Thanks for finding the reference.
Re:The Worst Programmer by agumonkey on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:42AM (#37362519)
You also need a fertile soil. In many many places, curiosity, exploration is passively frowned upon.
Re:The Worst Programmer by tfgg on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:48PM (#37364322)
Harry Nyquist isn't exactly an unknown engineer who doesn't have his own achievements, though - not sure why people are saying he would be fired in a modern company!
Re:The Worst Programmer by worik on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:04PM (#37366828)
In the modern company good engineers are not valued.

Engineering excellence is not a prerequisite to business success. Managers know this.

Why else many things any one of us could list from the computing business.

Re:The Worst Programmer by progmetaldev on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:04PM (#37367095)
I agree with you 100%. Management does not have an eye for software that is easy to maintain and continue to make money on 5 or 10 years down the line. Most management is thinking short term, how do I get money in MY pocket right NOW. Who cares how the business does in the long term, they'll jump ship and move on. It is the engineering that often makes a difference for long lived companies, it's just that usually the engineers and/or management isn't around long enough to reap the rewards. I try to balance engineering with product cost (I'm lucky enough where I can see the "numbers"). I try to give more to the clients that pay more, or at least create something that I can reuse in the future, while making sure what I deliver is stable and not a big ball of spaghetti to make the next developer/engineer cry at night.
Re:The Worst Programmer by worik on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:08PM (#37367378)
> ... 5 or 10 years down the line. Most management is thinking short term,

Woe is us. Five or ten years is not considered short term

> . I try to give more to the clients that pay more, or at least create something that I can reuse in the future, while making sure what I deliver is stable and not a big ball of spaghetti to make the next developer/engineer cry at night.

I am not sure about the "...who pay more". As I am currently woefully underpaid I am more sympathetic to that view than once I was, but, I still view myself as a professional, and I act with professional ethics.

Partly that means speaking up when I see a project going near the rocks. I do not make too much fuss, but I do say it out loud.

That has cost me plenty. Our industry is full of people who are very good at one thing or another, but do not know their limits.

Part of my "being professional" is knowing my own limits.

Re:The Worst Programmer by progmetaldev on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:59PM (#37375439)
I am in 100% agreement and the same thinking as you are. I never take the shortcut route unless it is absolutely warranted, such as a solution I know is meant to last only a few months. I have been very loud, and have effected quite a bit of change over my years, if only in a way that allows my boss to believe that I will no longer be a part of his operation if he restricts my freedom and personal ethics. I am highly underpaid, but I make sure to take that out in personal freedoms where it is worth it to me. I no longer answer phone calls or texts after hours unless they are going to directly damage the business, and my ability to continue having a place of employment. I take regular vacations, and mental health days, sometimes just to spend time with my son (went through a divorce where I still can't tell how badly it affected my son, although luckily went through a moderator rather than the attorneys/courts to settle things).

It is important to know what you can and can't get away with, and my clients don't pay the cost of the business I'm employed by making bad decisions. Where I am able to, I strive to provide a product that is better than the average, in the hopes that I've developed a solution that can possibly benefit the company or myself in the future in regards to software quality or speed (along with stability) of deployment.

Re:The Worst Programmer by ramraj07 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @09:51PM (#37367042)
He doesn’t have his own achievements?

I have heard of the Nyquist frequency, the nyquist limit, the nyquist sampling rate and the Shannon nyquist theorem.

As far as I know no other individual has had this many “things” named after him.

Re:The Worst Programmer by dash2 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @10:02PM (#37367088)
The GP used a double negative.
Re:The Worst Programmer by dabraham1248 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:48PM (#37367556)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Joh...

Note that the "Known for" section on his main page has 119 elements. But they're not all named after him.

Re:The Worst Programmer by jasomill on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:23AM (#37368143)
Re:The Worst Programmer by dabraham1248 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:02AM (#37370077)
Oh my! You buried the lede:

"In an effort to avoid naming everything after Euler, some discoveries and theorems are attributed to the first person to have proved them _after_ Euler."

Re:The Worst Programmer by Dylan16807 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:34AM (#37368194)
Did you skip over the word "isn't"?
Re:The Worst Programmer by vantassell on Saturday September 02, 2023 @08:19PM (#37366623)
Reminds me of the adage of “solving the problem is the hard part, the hard part is figuring out the right problem to solve”.

I always remember as “questions are harder than answers”.

Re:The Worst Programmer by robertlagrant on Sunday September 03, 2023 @05:06AM (#37368892)
Rumour has it Nyquist was promised to be on 18 breakfasts a day to placate investors after a slow quarter.
Re:The Worst Programmer by throwaway2037 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:12AM (#37369441)
Wiki says it is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Nyquist

Woah. He has a huge list of "Known for"!

Re:The Worst Programmer by agumonkey on Saturday September 02, 2023 @11:38AM (#37362473)
That kind of people was somehow mentioned in Peopleware. A group of people is a subtle structure, and good team spirit, good questions can improve things "invisibly".
Re:The Worst Programmer by andai on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:06PM (#37362777)
That is a catalyst!
Re:The Worst Programmer by psunavy03 on Saturday September 02, 2023 @12:51PM (#37363203)
For all a lot of people dump on Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches . . . this is part of who the good ones are supposed to be.
Re:The Worst Programmer by rramadass on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:27AM (#37368160)
Oh No!

Good people amplifiers are domain/technical experts; Scrum Masters/Agile Coaches are neither.

Re:The Worst Programmer by cheekibreeki2 on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:58AM (#37370050)
If anything many seem super green with 1-2 years tech experience.
Re:The Worst Programmer by psunavy03 on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:27AM (#37377107)
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
Re:The Worst Programmer by psunavy03 on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:26AM (#37377103)
I'm sure your bubble is a wonderful place for you to exist. I can't speak for anyone who has to interact with you, but inside of it, I'm sure it's great.
Re:The Worst Programmer by rramadass on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:38AM (#37377452)
I could echo the same argument.

At this point i think it is rather well established; eg. "Taskmasters" in - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

Re:The Worst Programmer by psunavy03 on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:33AM (#37377736)
It's basically a trope on this site for everyone to imply that everyone who doesn't have their fingers in code 8+ hours a day has a so-called "bullshit job," as if developers don't work for businesses which have to earn money, so forgive my skepticism.

And yes . . . I do code.

Re:The Worst Programmer by rramadass on Monday September 04, 2023 @04:50AM (#37378513)
You have missed the point.

It has nothing to do with coding but everything to do with adding tangible value towards achieving an Objective Goal (Business/Technology/whatever). Hence the Problem Domain and technologies used in the Solution Domain are what matter and everything else is ancillary. The Processes/Methodologies used are only useful in as much as they help us understand the problem domain better and map it to a specific solution. Thus the application of the former is informed by knowledge of the latter and cannot exist by itself. Hence the reason we have so many types/variations of Processes/Methodologies; there are some common principles but will always need to be adapted/customized to the problem and tools at hand.

This is what is the problem with modern-day Management/Leadership and eloquently pointed out by David Graeber(Bullshit Jobs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) and Jeffrey Pfeffer(Leadership BS - https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workpl...).

I highly recommend reading this speech by David Packard (one of the founders of Silicon Valley via HP) to new Managers given in 1960 and note how relevant it is for all companies today - https://gizmodo.com/the-hp-way-how-bill-hewlett-and-i-built-...

Relevant Excerpt:

Over the years we have developed the policy that it is important for the supervisor to thoroughly know and understand the work of his group. A debate on this has been carried on by management people for years. Some say you can be a good manager without having the slightest idea of what you are trying to manage, that the techniques of management are all important. There are many organizations which work that way. I don't argue that the job can't be done that way but I do argue strongly that the best job can be done when the manager or supervisor has a real and genuine understanding of his group's work. I don't see how a person can even understand what proper standards are and what performance is required unless he does understand in some detail the very specific nature of the work he is trying to supervise. We have held closely to this philosophy and we intend to continue to do so. We expect you who are supervising to learn techniques of supervision and keep up to date. I want to emphasize you can supervise best when you know a great deal about the work you are supervising and when you know the techniques of supervision as well.

Re:The Worst Programmer by theshrike79 on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:57PM (#37384337)
There is a difference between "understanding the work" and "knowing how to do the work".

I've had multiple Producers who "understand the work" of creating mobile games as a whole and understand how the team needs to work and interact to produce a result on time.

None of them could code a mobile game to save their life.

What your example is talking is a situation where a fresh off the press MBA is shoved in to a very specific field and they start just doing pure numbers and Excel management out of a management book without knowing how that specific industry operates.

Managing a team of deep-sea welders is VERY different from managing a software team, which is again different from managing a team of people building a physical machine.

Re:The Worst Programmer by rramadass on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @01:04AM (#37388077)
>There is a difference between "understanding the work" and "knowing how to do the work".

True. However, the relationship between them need not be a "Total Function" but definitely needs to be a "Partial Function" to a certain degree. You cannot be completely divorced from the "How" and hope to have a good "understanding" of the system.

>Managing a team of deep-sea welders is VERY different from managing a software team, which is again different from managing a team of people building a physical machine.

This is precisely the point; domain/technical knowledge is needed to effectively Manage a project. This is independent of knowledge of techniques of Management. The problem today is that entire industries have been created out of thin air which posit that the latter is sufficient if one follows a certain process/methodology which is patently absurd.

Re:The Worst Programmer by CRConrad on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @05:06AM (#37389484)
> You have missed the point.

No, I think at least in large part, you missed the point.

> It has nothing to do with coding but everything to do with adding tangible value towards achieving an Objective Goal (Business/Technology/whatever).

As I understood _Bullshit Jobs,_ "adding tangible value" to some business that doesn't actually add anything of actual (non-monetary) value to the world is bullshit. There are whole industries that make billions of dollars, but everyone who works in them is still doing a bullshit job. (I often think I do.)

Re:The Worst Programmer by rramadass on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @07:29AM (#37390313)
You are talking about the meaningfulness/meaninglessness of the Business/Technology Objective itself. That aspect is certainly relevant and can be Bullshit (eg. companies selling Scrum master/Agile coach certifications :-) but in the context of this thread we are talking about the bullshit jobs created within an organization in the bureaucratic/administrative/managerial/leadership "roles". This is what is more insidious and needs to be rebelled against.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs :

... as he describes, five types of entirely pointless jobs: ... 5. Taskmasters, who create extra work for those who do not need it, e.g., middle management, leadership professionals.

In companies, he concludes that the rise of service sector jobs owes less to economic need than to "managerial feudalism", in which employers need underlings in order to feel important and maintain competitive status and power.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_job :

Graeber also formulated the concept of bullshitization, where previously meaningful work turns into a bullshit job through corporatization, marketization or managerialism.

Re:The Worst Programmer by theshrike79 on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:54PM (#37384300)
Nope.

The best amplifier I've met was hired as a junior coder to my team and was paired with a couple of 10x coders on a project with a client who was "hands-on" and loved to micro-manage, having been a software developer themselves a long time ago.

The Amplifier's coding output wasn't that good, but the team as a whole was doing better than before so I investigated.

Turns out the 10x guys weren't that keen on communicating with ... well anyone outside of the team, much less with non-technical clients (or technical clients who loved micromanage). Both were your stereotypical cold pizza and warm cola coders with limited social skills. They could kinda sorta manage the meetings and emails directly from customers but didn't exactly relish it.

The junior hire was more like a 0.5x coder, but had ample social and organisation skills and worked extremely well as a liaison between the team and any external contacts they needed, taking over most "useless" meetings with the product owner and customer.

The junior coder ended up receiving some training and was "promoted" to a Scrum Master/Producer/Project Manager (the exact title escapes me) for the team. Everyone was happy and productive.

Re:The Worst Programmer by rramadass on Tuesday September 05, 2023 @12:42AM (#37387960)
Your anecdote actually reinforces my comment. See my comment below for context - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378513

Your "Amplifier" is more like what is known as a "Field Applications Engineer" in the Embedded industry i.e. somebody with enough Domain/Technical/Marketing/Sales skills fulfilling a tangible need for the Business. They are more a "Business Process Optimizer" than a "People Amplifier"(a term i made up :-) who i define as somebody who can spark creativity/insights/viewpoints etc. which push others forward in their problem-solving endeavours. It is not merely removing hurdles/book-keeping/time management/liaisoning but an active role involving discussions/brainstorming/idea generation. This cannot be done without bringing some expertise to the table relevant to the problem at hand.

Re:The Worst Programmer by ldjkfkdsjnv on Saturday September 02, 2023 @01:01PM (#37363299)
This type of person needs to start a company, they never get paid a fair wage otherwise
Re:The Worst Programmer by tacocataco on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:23AM (#37369210)
True for most of the working class, whose surplus labor value is siphoned away by capital.
Re:The Worst Programmer by closeparen on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:14PM (#37364025)
Do people honestly think this kind of thing replicates with formally scheduled Zoom 1:1s? I don’t.
Re:The Worst Programmer by lizard on Saturday September 02, 2023 @02:58PM (#37364413)
I don't know about you, but I don't tend to have breakfast and lunch over Zoom.

While I did go out to lunch with coworkers more often while working in the office it was almost exclusively with direct teammates, and other groups I occasionally saw where also on the same team.

Now that I'm fully remote, I will typically do a few "hacking sessions" over Zoom every week. Its much easier and more comfortable than standing over their shoulder in tiny cubes we used to have.

That said, especially now that i am fully remote, I've been trying and mostly failing to get developers especially across teams to talk and collaborate more. But its not too suprising: I was recently in a call and I was introduced to another developer who I replied, "Yeah, I know you. I was in the cube next to you for 2 years and on your team for 6 months."

Remote creates some new challenges, but its a culture thing, not a technology thing.

Re:The Worst Programmer by riffraff on Sunday September 03, 2023 @02:36AM (#37368201)
FWIW, I schedule coffee with colleagues over zoom.

It's not the same as having lunch together but it is enjoyable and useful.

Re:The Worst Programmer by lizard on Sunday September 03, 2023 @11:26AM (#37371144)
You know, after I wrote this I got to thinking, "Why don't I have have more social Zoom calls?"

The answer is that I never was good at social things like inviting people to coffee.

But it doesn't help that we're taught to "protect" our time and avoid unnecessary calls and meetings. Presumably so we can write more lines of code, close more tickets, or earn more points like the story and other anecdotes here.

I think I may try something new in my calendar. Worst case I'll end up sitting in front of my computer alone with a block for the next hour and nothing to do but work on all those things I need to do anyways.

Re:The Worst Programmer by chiph on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:25AM (#37369854)
My thoughts were that neither of them should have been surprised by the rating. When a rating comes in substantially different than expected, it's usually because A) They aren't talking during the week B) The manager is weak and doesn't want to issue corrections when they meet C) The employee isn't asking "How am I doing?" during their meetings D) It's being directed from upper management for obscure reasons.