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Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by FirmwareBurner on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:34AM (#37260091)
Biggest improvement to sleep I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by vincelt on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:37AM (#37260105)
True, failed to mention that I never drink caffeine after 2pm. I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by FirmwareBurner on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:39AM (#37260112)
>I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine

By building tolerance and genetics.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by amelius on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:43AM (#37260137)
Regarding genetics, are there enzymes that some people lack, and that they can take to digest caffeine better?
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by pillefitz on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:49AM (#37260185)
This one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2. I've read somewhere that eating Broccoli enhances its activity, but likely too much is needed to have noticable effects from what I recall.

If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo..

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by salad-tycoon on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:26AM (#37260475)
Of course, that’s called a speed ball. An upper and downer. Also poppers and screamers and small world.

“We buy drugs” whitest kids u know : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc

Anyways, in all seriousness the idea of taking something and then taking something else later to counteract the effects, not good but popular in black, gray, and white market.

I think this weekend I’ll give up caffeine, I’m a slow metabolizer.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by pillefitz on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:57PM (#37265763)
I was thinking more in terms of actual antidote by either binding the active substance or speeding up its metabolism, rather than having two substances acting in opposing directions.

Anyway, I gave up caffeine earlier this year and am quite happy with the results. Steady and calm energy, no frantic meandering of thoughts, no clinging to details anymore. Once every few weeks I'm craving the euphoric buzz and drink half an Espresso, but typically regret it later the same day as I'm unable to sleep and, interestingly, tend to wake up in the middle of the night for a couple of days after.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by amelius on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:31AM (#37260507)
> If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo..

I know that energy drinks use taurine to combat some of the effects of caffeine, but I don't think it will work for sleep.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by fjfuvucucuc on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:48AM (#37260174)
And age. I used to do this fine in my 20s. 30s not so much.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by growingkittens on Saturday August 26, 2023 @07:11AM (#37271707)
Or by having ADHD - coffee before bed can give me just enough focus to fall asleep.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Lewton on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:48AM (#37260180)
2pm might not be early enough. Depending on genetics the half life of caffeine in your system can vary by a lot. Even if you're in the normal range, a half life of 4-6 hours means that ~25% of the caffeine would still be in your system by midnight...

If you're that worried about sleep quality, it's baffling you have not tried cutting out caffeine altogether

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by garrickvanburen on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:27PM (#37265389)
No caffeine after 10am here.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by balfirevic on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:26PM (#37267788)
None of the statements "no coffee after XX" make sense without specifying when you go to sleep.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by garrickvanburen on Saturday August 26, 2023 @08:19AM (#37272153)
I’m not sure the marginal difference between say 8p and midnight is material with a 10a cutoff.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by RoyalHenOil on Saturday August 26, 2023 @06:52PM (#37277637)
For me, caffeine aids sleep. I find it much easier to make myself stop excessively thinking about things when I am caffeinated.

However, if I have caffeine too early in the day, it makes it harder to clear my mind and sleep that night than if I had no caffeine at all.

For this reason, I aim to only have caffeine after 3pm (preferably later, depending on when I plan to go to bed).

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Tenoke on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:45AM (#37260151)
You are overgeneralizing from your own experience. It happens to some but most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by FirmwareBurner on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:50AM (#37260192)
>most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem

You'd be surprised how many binge on coffee out of habit without giving a thought to how it might impact their sleep, same how many smokers still smoke despite breathing difficulties and the cigarette packages telling you in bold letters they'll give you cancer and make your willy stop working.

Vices are a tricky thing and the human brain is complex yet very susceptible to addiction and self harming bad habits.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by rcarr on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:51AM (#37260202)
Came here to say the same thing. My body basically forces me to take breaks, after a couple of months of just one or two coffees a day I’ll eventually be tired to the point where I can’t function properly until I take a week off coffee. I need to quit altogether and get back into exercising, when I get on to a good exercise streak and I’m training for an hour or two every day I rarely feel tired and I always sleep well. It’s just harder to maintain when things get busy.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Dowwie on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:52AM (#37260214)
Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by formvoltron on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:11AM (#37260354)
> Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption.

This is a myth. Coffee has water in it. Just drink enough water from all sources.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by bookaway on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:35AM (#37260536)
If it is a myth, it is a very widespread stubbornly persistent myth. If you have links to scientific sources debunking it as a myth that would much appreciated.

I came across it most recently in Tom Brady's athletic health book [0]. If I remember correctly, he states that you should drink double the amount of coffee consumed to offset the dehydration effects of coffee. This is simply to emphasize the ubiquitous nature of the myth, as he is someone who has presumably been surrounded by medical professionals for most of his athletic career, and who should have known better if what you say is correct. He singles out proper hydration as a major factor in his peak performance, something he claims younger athletes ignore.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Perfor...

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by UncleMeat on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:49AM (#37261109)
It does not surprise me even one bit that a professional athlete's book on health and nutrition contains health and nutrition myths, especially given other stuff that he has promoted.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by the-dude on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:20AM (#37261397)
Do you have links to scientific sources acknowledging it?
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by karmakaze on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:25AM (#37261449)
I participated in a time tracking exercise and I found that like-clockwork, without fail, I would urinate 1 hour after a cup of coffee at the office. On the way back from the bathroom, I'd get myself another cup of coffee. I had no idea I was having 5 or more cups of coffee every day.

I later tried to cut down or reduce my coffee intake. Most times I always resumed from a combination of missing the enjoyment/routine, flavour, and ability to focus. I finally at least cut out espresso shots, and mostly have a green tea in the morning and a coffee in the afternoon, and sometimes an (orange pekoe/earl gray) tea or a decaf coffee in the early evening.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by pwpw on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:53AM (#37261750)
It’s a shame this is downvoted on HN of all places. I have seen various research that suggests both caffeine (in coffee & tea) and even alcohol (in lighter beers) do not dehydrate. I’ll stick with caffeine since that’s the topic.

The primary study that spread the idea that caffeine dehydrates is from a 1928 study with a sample size of three men[0]. It may very well be that caffeine does dehydrate, but I have yet to see overwhelmingly conclusive evidence to make such a claim as matter of fact. For now, I believe it’s safer to err on the side of moderate and regular caffeine consumption not causing dehydration to a perceptible level. This could of course be entirely incorrect, but I haven’t come across research that has convinced me otherwise so far. My understanding is the reason a cup of coffee (or tea’ does not dehydrate the consumer is because it is almost entirely water.

I think an important frying to remember is that science is a field of research and discovery, so we should try to avoid arriving at conclusions and refusing to accept differing opinions. Look at how we treated Ignaz Semmelweis for an extreme example of that type of fallacy.

[0] https://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/33/2/167

More studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3886980/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11022872/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21450118/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9194998

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna...

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by ramblenode on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:06PM (#37266400)
I have experimented with caffeine for years (periods of off and on) and noticed dehydration (it is a known diuretic after all). The problem with many of these types of studies that claim there is no effect of x from their inability to detect an effect of x is that they don't rule out sub-populations who may experience the effect. In other words, it's possible for there to be no effect on average, but for the population to be comprised of different groups who do and don't experience the effect. This is particularly relevant to the linked studies which (aside from the first one) have very small sample sizes (n=19, 21, 12) that would not differentiate sub-populations.

After reading the abstracts and skimming some of the studies you linked, I don't personally find the quality of evidence convincing enough to discount what seems to be a commonly reported anecdote about the effects of caffeine.

As an example, the second study makes a glaring statistical error (equating p>0.05 lack of a difference between groups with equivalence of groups) that renders the entire conclusion invalid.

The fourth study (which probably has the best methodology aside from the small sample size) actually did find caffeine has an effect on water retention.

The other studies use various indirect measures of hydration (blood osmolality and urine metabolites) where it is unclear if sub-clincical diuresis would actually impact these measures.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by vrc on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:34PM (#37268748)
I believe the ABV for beer being hydrating is <3.4% or <3.2%. So it’s a very conservative session beer or one of those ultra low calories beers.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by masklinn on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:57AM (#37260258)
> Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article.

Probably because it’s the first thing which comes up when people complain about poor sleep.

Caffeine consumption is certainly the first thing every doc I’ve seen asked about.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by thomasfl on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:43AM (#37260591)
Giving up caffein is the single most important thing most people can do to improve sleep quality. Wikipedia says "Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug", so it's obvious why coffee is so addictive for many. It is very hard to stay away from coffee, when it is literally everywhere. Somebody is always brewing coffee at the office, every street corner has a café, every meeting starts with someone serving coffee. It doesn't makes things better living in Norway, which has the worlds second highest coffee consumption per capita.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by necessary on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:48AM (#37260627)
It has been incredibly hard for me to quit as the consumption of caffeine feels directly tied with work performance and mood for me. It also doesn’t help that I love the taste of coffee and the routine.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Balgair on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:39AM (#37261031)
There are a lot of good decaf coffees out there. Also teas.

You don't have to give up the taste or the ritual to cut back on the caffeine, you don't even have to give up caffeine totally. You can cut down a lot on it too.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by FirmwareBurner on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:52AM (#37262393)
All decafs I tried tasted like ass. And I buy quality beans from the hipster roasters.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by eyelidlessness on Friday August 25, 2023 @01:12PM (#37264300)
Maybe see if one of those roasters mentions the Swiss water process. IME it makes for quite good decaf (and I too have a hipster’s taste in coffee).
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by IanOzsvald on Friday August 25, 2023 @01:36PM (#37264599)
In the UK I use Redber for beans, I drink decaf (Swiss Water prices) fresh ground in the afternoon and have 2-3 caf cups in the morning. Redber had a wide selection and several roast levels. No caffeine after noon. I use a 2-cup espresso Bialetti stove top, the second smallest.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by tailspin2019 on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:52PM (#37268020)
> Swiss water process

Wow, I had never heard of this before. The chemical process for decaf had always put me off before.

From their website: [0]

> When you see the Swiss Water® name, it means your favorite roaster offers 100% chemical-free decaffeinated coffee.

You may have just convinced me to switch to decaf...

[0] https://www.swisswater.com

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by anonuser123456 on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:41PM (#37269477)
It still tastes like garbage.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by eskaytwo on Saturday August 26, 2023 @01:49AM (#37270240)
It doesn’t. Some of the Swiss waters are very good. My baseline for coffee is quality single origin Geisha, and good Swiss water is better than most espresso places.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by tailspin2019 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @09:22AM (#37321746)
Off the back of yours and the child comments, I tried a swiss water decaf for the first time (beans) and it tastes amazing - I wouldn’t know it’s not regular coffee.

For reference for anyone interested, I used a Mochamaster filter brewer with these beans (which I freshly grind - which probably helps the taste too):

Lavazza Decaffeinated, 100% Arabica Medium Roast

This is exciting to me as I can finally wean myself off caffeine while keeping my {difficult to kick} coffee habit!

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by zingababba on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:21AM (#37262047)
Exactly why I had such a hard time quitting. I kept rationalizing it by telling myself that abstaining was killing my productivity (it was in the short term.) But after /finally/ quitting it has absolutely been worth it and my productivity is back to where it was plus it's not in manic bursts like it was with caffeine use.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Balgair on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:47AM (#37261096)
I'll chime in here too.

I gave up caffeine on a lark during lockdowns. Man, great decision. I've never slept better and my anxiety went way down too. I'd had no idea what that stimulant happened to be doing to my system.

I had been tapering down my caffeine consumption too, but going cold turkey had a major difference for me.

I'll caution that 3 days of pretty intense headaches were the cost, but for me, the benefits were immense.

I still go through a coffee ritual-thingy in the mornings with teas, so that is still nice to have.

Others in my family have tried this, but saw no real benefits, so went back on coffee. Your mileage may vary too. Still, I think it's worth a shot if you're having sleeping issues.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by MuffinFlavored on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:25PM (#37267239)
teas have caffeine?
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by FirmwareBurner on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:16PM (#37267683)
Depends what you define as "tea" where you live.

Black tea and green tea, like Earl Gray or Matcha, yes they have caffeine.

Chamomile or tea of an other non-caffeinated plant boiled in water, no.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Bombinator on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:22PM (#37278532)
I don't understand going cold turkey. You said it had a difference for you. What was it? I've tapered off before, it probably took like a week at most and I experienced no headaches.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by Balgair on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:10PM (#37279099)
Even at ~1/4th caf as my once daily cup, I still got ~3 days of headaches when I finally quit entirely.

After that, I slept much better. I could finally fall asleep, it wouldn't take me an hour to nod off. I stayed asleep, I wasn't getting up 2-3 times a night. My anxiety, which I then found out contributed to my sleep problems, that pretty much went away. I used to plan and replan scenarios in my head, come up with pithy quips to conversations that would never happen, fear saying or doing the wrong thing in imaginary conundrums.

It all just disappeared after I quit caffeine. I felt 'normal' for the first time in decades. I woke up having the best night of sleep in my memory. And then it happened the next morning, and the next.

Currently, I don;t sleep all that well, but a new baby is the culprit. I can't imagine having a newborn and being on caffeine again, my anxiety would spiral out of control. I'd be a mess for my kid, projecting things, being a jerk.

One of the best little random challenges I ever gave myself.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by realaleris149 on Sunday August 27, 2023 @07:01AM (#37281421)
I have the exact same issue as op, I wake during the night and going back to sleep after that can take hours. Tried to get rid of the cofee, more precisely stopped drinking for 2 weeks, but didn't have any effect for me, so yeah the results may vary.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by taylodl on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:50AM (#37261722)
I didn't have to go this far. No caffeine after 11 a.m. dramatically improved my sleep. I also limit myself to 2 cups of coffee per day.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by zingababba on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:18AM (#37262016)
Same, quitting caffeine made a massive difference in my sleep. Daily consumer for 20 years, quitting suuucked and took me probably 20 tries but finally did it. My mind works so much better now.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by superultra on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:53PM (#37264002)
I’m curious how much coffee you drank, and others who drank coffee, quit, and had similar results.

I drink one 10oz cup a day. Occasionally more but rarely. I do love it.

Knowing that everyone’s physiology is different, I wonder if I would generally see notable gains in quitting 1 cup a day.

I find that the people who say quitting made a difference were often drinking a pot a day. But maybe that is not true for you?

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by swah on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:46PM (#37266811)
Yeah - I also always wonder if they also cut the Coke, chocolate, etc.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by satvikpendem on Saturday August 26, 2023 @02:07PM (#37275292)
I have cut out all forms of caffeine including soda and chocolate, yes. It's great, I feel well rested. If I want soda or chocolate, I make sure to have them before noon, but even still, it's actually noticeable the next day.
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by HalfCrimp on Saturday August 26, 2023 @06:53PM (#37277652)
It certainly did for me.

I was a regular espresso drinker, one in the morning with my wife before work and giving it up has made a world of difference. Even a coffee at 7am was impacting my sleep, I suspect I just metabolise caffeine slowly.

I can still have a tea in the morning to replace the ritual, and chocolate doesn't cause me any issues (in moderation) so I'm not 100% caffeine free, but it's made a huge difference to my sleep quality and overall mood. The first week or so felt very sluggish, but one I was sleeping properly I now feel more alert and productive without coffee than I ever did with it.

I still have one occasionally (~2 a month I guess) because I enjoy it, but I definitely notice the sleep impact that night and feel crap the next day.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by boppo1 on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:04PM (#37265028)
I'm down to one cup a day in the morning. If I quit entirely, how long until I should notice the benefits? A month?
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by ninesnines on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:02PM (#37266363)
I gave up caffeine (tapered off to one cup, was at 6 cups a day and I’m a small human) and I almost immediately noticed my anxiety levels cut by 75%. In terms of sleep, I didn’t notice a huge difference, but I also am not good about setting a calming routine before bed. If caffeine is playing a large role in your insomnia you should feel more able to fall asleep quite quickly . Caffeine can greatly increase cortisol levels and sometimes that can take some time to come down
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by lacoolj on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:45PM (#37265632)
don't know if it was after your comment or not but he has caffeine listed here (mentioned not drinking after 2pm)
Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by baxtr on Saturday August 26, 2023 @02:51AM (#37270441)
What I found out recently: people are different. Some people have a slow and some a fast caffeine metabolism.

I’m a fast metabolizer. I can drink coffee very late and don’t feel anything. A friend of mine stops drinking coffee after 1pm because he won’t sleep otherwise.

Re:Things I tried to improve sleep by dharma1 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @03:27AM (#37270578)
I have noticed it takes my body 12h+ to metabolise a single cup of coffee - if I haven’t had it for a while. This trait shows up in genetic tests https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consu...

While I love a good coffee, the sleep cycle mess it causes isn’t worth it for me except very occasionally - this also means there is no tolerance build up. I drink on average one cup of cappuccino every 1-2 weeks, and seek out the good stuff to make it worth it. You really notice the effects too this way vs drinking it daily.