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Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:08PM (#37092598)
Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement.

I used to be really interested in this, but forgot it existed over the years. Glad to see it works!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellarator

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by lostlogin on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:31PM (#37092912)
Are you able to say more about what you do? Judging by your comments, you have some idea what you are talking about.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by white_dragon88 on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:24PM (#37092805)
You know enough to say more. Say more!
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by gabereiser on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:27PM (#37092852)
Seconded. This is fascinating stuff and reminds me of some crazy rant some guy was telling me about anti-gravity and how electromagnetic “ribbons” could propel you. Obviously the guy was nuts, right? How would one go about learning more about electromagnetic plasma containment folding?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by StackOverlord on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:42PM (#37093064)
> Dr. Ning Li of Huntsville, AL passed peacefully away on July 27, 2021. She was 79 years old. One of the world's leading scientists in super-conductivity anti-gravity. Dr. Li had constructed first 12" HTSD of the world in late 90s.

https://www.berryhillfh.com/obituary/ning-li?lud=4CF765EE88E...

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by gabereiser on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:34PM (#37102951)
I just read a bunch of stuff about her from her son. About how he took care of her in her advanced years and her alzheimer's disease. Sad but also peculiar about her DoD work and how she "never talked about it". I wonder what it was? trying to get an alien craft working again? developing anti-gravity weapon? a ship? a hoverboard? please say it was a hoverboard.

Her claim that "You can take a bowling ball and place it and it will stay." is fascinating. I would love to see footage/video of this. Small electro marbles and globes are one thing, a bowling ball or other large non-magnetic object!? man oh man!

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:41PM (#37093050)
Haha, no I am just some random guy who reads too many Wikipedia articles. "Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about.

My explanation was definitely over simplified, but I'm not knowledgable enough to go into detail on the topic. I can't even point you towards something to read on the topic since everything I read about it is like 15 years old at this point.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by tootie on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:51PM (#37093181)
If a Hollywood screenwriter were naming a crazy science device, they would come up with something like Wendelstien 7-X
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by tboughen on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:10PM (#37093399)
My favourite fact about it comes from https://phys.org/news/2016-02-plasma-physicist-discusses-wen...

“…the supporting structure can only withstand the forces if the interfaces between the ten individual segments of the central rings, which weighs several tonnes, are built with a level of precision of less than 100 millionths of a metre…” - and they found a small family business in the north of Italy capable of doing this!

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dale_glass on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:26PM (#37093602)
Odd units.

1 meter = 100 cm = 1000mm.

So 1 millionth of a meter = 1/1000th of 1mm.

thus, 100 millionths of a meter = 0.1mm, or ~4 thou in American units. Easily achievable by hobbyists, let alone by serious, professional equipment.

Sure, that is a pretty exacting specification for what I suppose is a big machine, but I'm pretty sure very normal things like say, car engines get made to far tighter tolerances.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Retric on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:36PM (#37093692)
You messed up at your last step 1 millionth = 1mm, 10 millionth = 0.1mm, 100 millionth = 0.01mm

0.01mm is very difficult when you’re talking large custom objects with complex shapes.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dale_glass on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:44PM (#37093771)
Oh, English fail on my part then. I had assumed that 100 millionths of a metre == 100 * 1/1000000.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eis on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:27PM (#37094262)
The german site of the source speaks of 0.1mm so you were correct

   > bei Toleranzen von teilweise nur 0,1 Millimeter
https://www.ipp.mpg.de/de/aktuelles/presse/pi/2020/01_20
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Retric on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:00PM (#37095099)
No your correct, I just read it wrong.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by starkrights on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:54PM (#37093885)
I think the original commenter is right- correct me if I missed what you’re getting at.

Keeping it all in the same units until the end here:

1 millionth of 1 meter = (1 / 1,000,000)m = (1e-6m)

1 millionth * 100 = 100 millionths => (1e-6m) * 100 = (1e-4m) = 100 millionths

(1e-4m) = .0001m | 1m = 1000mm => .0001m*1000 = .1mm

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Retric on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:49PM (#37094995)
Ops, 100 ( 1 millionths of a meter) is a much more reasonable tolerance here than 1 / 100 millionths of a meter.

I am to used to people saying 100 millionth of a meter to mean 10 nm or 0.01 µm which would have looked insane if I had written that.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dekhn on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:09PM (#37094070)
millionths of a meter are known as micron so most people would call this '100 micron' (or '100 micrometers') which is indeed close to 4 thou, as you calculated, and is the level of accuracy of my ~$500 3d printer.

1 thou was achievable in routine shops in the 1940s and a tenth of a thou (2.54 micron) is a common accuracy to target these days. Obviously it depends on the context and the size of the object, at some point you move away from cutting to using grinding and lapping to achieve your results, which is ultra-timeconsuming.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by kortex on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:35AM (#37097090)
What usually matters more than absolute tolerances is relative tolerance, aka ppm. 100 micron / 4 thou tolerance can be achieved with hand tools and a bit of patience on the benchtop scale, say a 4" part. That's about 1000 ppm, or 0.1%. If I gave you a meter stick, you could probably eyeball marking something +/- 1mm.

Getting the same finish on a 120"/3m coil is 33 ppm. 100 ppm / 0.01% for any operation or process tends to be where things start to get really challenging. Deflection goes up by the length cubed, so increasing the size of all the tooling relative to the tolerance gets really challenging really fast.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:59PM (#37095842)
>"Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about.

Or the very person that someone with a show like Art Bell would have as a guest.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:51PM (#37093851)
I'm not that guy, but I can speak to what you're asking. I've followed Wendelstein 7-X for almost a decade.

Nuclear fusion occurs at extremely-high temperatures. As you heat your fusion fuel to sufficiently-high temperatures to allow fusion, the matter transitions into a plasma, which is great: plasmas react to electromagnetic fields. As such, a major challenge with achieving viable nuclear fusion is making a vessel capable of holding the fusion reaction. Because we can't create on-demand gravity wells, the next best option for confinement is using electromagnetic fields to hold the plasma in the air.

So, you now have an "electromagnetic bottle" capable of suspending a fusion reaction above the reactor's walls. Now, you have another issue: how do you ensure the fuel will sufficiently mix to sustain a fusion reaction? One approach is to move the plasma in a loop. The topologically-simplest method to accomplish this loop is the torus. Such a plasma-confinement device is called a tokamak. A tokamak uses two magnetic fields, torodial and polodial, to accomplish its task. The torodial field is driven through the plasma to push it forward, while the polodial field pulls the plasma in toward the center. Proper balance of these fields will allow the plasma to circuit the vessel following a helical path, achieving confinement.

However, driving two separate magnetic fields is energy-intensive, and a successful fusion reactor will want to minimize its own power consumption to maximize the amount available for external usage. Enter the stellarator. The stellarator also drives the plasma around in a circle, it but uses a single magnetic field. How? It "tricks" the plasma into "thinking" there's only one magnetic field by using computer-optimized magnets with highly-complex geometries. This provides stellarators with a major engineering advantage over tokamaks and is a primary reason Wendelstein 7-X would have chosen it.

With the confinement vessel topology largely identified, the next main step is to figure out how to build a vessel able to contain a sustained fusion reaction. For context, fusion experiments traditionally only operate on timescales of milliseconds to maybe a second. The reason? Fusion occurs at millions of degrees, and keeping the reaction vessel cool, ensuring a continuous supply of fuel, and dealing with reaction "exhaust" (e.g., alpha particles) and stray high-energy neutrons from the common deuterium-tritium reaction (which irradiate your reactor walls because neutrons don't react with electomagnetic fields) is a major, major engineering challenge. Any operational, net-positive fusion reactor must be able to operate for days, weeks, and months on end.

What Wendelstein 7-X has been attempting to do for years is demonstrate that building such a vessel is even possible. Their overall goal is to sustain a fusion reaction for about 30 minutes. Such a timescale will show a proof-of-concept system which enables sustained fusion reactions to occur.

Currently, the preferred fuel is deuterium-tritium because the fuel is generally available and has an attainable fusion temperature. The stray neutron issue can be mitigated by lining reactor walls with lithium to breed tritium fuel. Even better is to use the helium3-helium3 reaction, which completely annihilate to produce pure energy as the output (welcome to e=mc^2, enjoy your stay). The main holdups are: (1) the reaction occurs at much higher temperatures than deuterium-tritium, and (2) he(lium)3 is quite scarce on Earth. Once Wendelstein 7-X shows how to engineer a proper confinement vessel at a "lower" temperature, you can then work on the higher temperature levels required for he3-he3. Also, he3 is plentiful on the surface of the moon, so mining the surface of the moon will be performed to obtain the required fuel, which is the fundamental premise of the movie "Moon".

Someone asked for information on electromagnetic plasma containment folding. I recommend reading up on magnetohydrodynamics (MHD). It's the mathematical and physical foundation of your interest.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:18PM (#37094163)
One guy asked why the mobius aspect is needed and I couldn't answer. I know a lot of stellarators aren't odd-period like Wendelstein, and the old designs didn't do folding at all. Do you know what improvements the mobius design has over something like TJ-II?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:35PM (#37094331)
The helical path creates a twist in the plasma which cancels out the drift forces. This is what I meant by "tricking" the plasma. User mjfl gives an even more technical explanation:

> By twisting the plasma into a shape where the curl of B (proportional to J) is parallel to B, i.e. a helix, the cross product is 0, and thus there are no net magnetohydrodynamic forces on the plasma.

Hope all that's a good answer for you.

> Mobius aspect

You might avoid using the word "Mobius" and instead use "helical." A Mobius strip is important because it has two faces which form a single surface. The surface aspect isn't relevant in this context, so a term which refers to the shape would likely dispel confusion in a reader.

As far as I'm aware, each section of a stellarator is periodic in its own right, which means the end and start points of each section are the same. Though I'm not certain, the choice of four versus five is more likely an engineering factor rather than one of physics, whereas the distinction between a tokamak and stellarator is of physics and not just engineering.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:00PM (#37094584)
If a 'particle' (I don't know a better word) finds itself near one of the top divertors, at the same point in the next orbit it will find itself near the bottom divertor. That is a product of the "mobius-like" shape, so although it isn't really a 'ribbon' and isn't really a mobius, it helps explain the concept concisely. I just don't know WHY that shape helps lol. Maybe it doesn't and it was just a practical design change like you said.

edit: changed language about the divertors.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:33AM (#37098505)
Did a little research to try and understand this better.

The most precise term to describe the "twisted ribbon" flux tube in W7-X is "toroidal helix". The toroidal quality comes from the general torus shape of the stellarator, and the helix quality comes from the twisting of the magnetic field by magnets. (The torus shape is required only topologically; look up the knotatron to see what I mean.)

The "ribbon" we're talking about is properly called the flux tube. The flux tube is the volume created by the flux surface, which is where the magnetic field lines lie. A given volume of plasma contained within a flux tube should remain inside it, causing magnetic confinement of the plasma.

The optimality of the confinement of the flux tube is expressed with the term "omnigeneity". Conceptually, a flux tube has onmigeneity if ideally all of the non-colliding plasma inside the tube stays in the tube. W7-X's flux tube appears to be approaching omnigenity. (Another experiment which approaches omnigenity is HSX. Interestingly, HSX has one set of primary magnets, whereas W7-X has two. That's likely because HSX achieves omnigenity via quasisymmetry, whereas W7-X uses various stellarator optimization techniques.)

With these points, we can call the W7-X "ribbon" a near-omnigenous toroidal helix flux tube, which sounds way cooler. So, all that said, why is a helical property desired? From what I've read, the twist in the flux surface reduces plasma drift inside the flux tube.

I think it makes sense to analogize this stuff as a circular semi-permeable pipe filled with a high-pressure "magic fluid" flowing around-and-around inside. By semi-permeable, it means fluid will leak from the pipe if the internal pressure is too high (remember that this is magic fluid). Trying to understand the helical twist along this analogy, I think the effect is evening of internal pressure across the pipe surface to reduce fluid turbulence and permeation while maximizing laminar flow. At least, that's my best analogous interpretation of "why" the twist helps.

The divertors are useful for long-term reactor operation but have no direct relevance to the magnetic field geometry. I'm guessing there's two divertors for engineering reasons (performance, redundancy, etc.) and not for reasons of basic physics.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by golem14 on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:49PM (#37095003)
I suppose that any number of twists would be OK, but the more twists, the less efficient ?

Is that what you are saying ? Or are there other constraints on the number of twists (e.g. must be odd, ...)

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @10:40PM (#37096461)
Yes I was referring to odd. But I've been reading some papers and I think even 4-fold had the mobius effect. I'll comment here again tomorrow when I have learned a bit more on the topic.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by huribfobcf on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:53PM (#37095812)
The terms (not specific to tokamaks) are "toroidal" and "poloidal". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_and_poloidal_coordina...
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:35AM (#37097619)
Oops, my bad on the typos. Thanks for the correction.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by less_less on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:31PM (#37096047)
> Even better is to use the helium3-helium3 reaction, which completely annihilate to produce pure energy as the output (welcome to e=mc^2, enjoy your stay).

It doesn't completely annihilate to produce pure energy. It produces helium-4 and two protons. Or you can react helium-3 + deuterium to produce helium-4 and one proton. The point is that helium-4 and protons are easier to shield against than neutrons, don't turn your reactor radioactive, and at least in theory their energy can be extracted directly (eg through induction) instead of through heat.

Edited to add: except helium-3 + deuterium still produces neutrons, because sometimes the deuterium will react with itself to produce helium-3 and a neutron.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:27AM (#37097574)
You're absolutely right, thank you for the correction. he3-he3 doesn't produce neutrons, which is the major advantage, in addition to the massive energy output.

Here's an interesting link which lists various fusion reactions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3#Nuclear_fuel

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by pschuegr on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:57PM (#37096199)
great comment, thanks - this is why I read HN
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by bombcar on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:06PM (#37096611)
I’m going to assume the name “waterheater” is from a prosaic way of naming a nuclear reactor.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dTal on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:19PM (#37113293)
>Also, he3 is plentiful on the surface of the moon, so mining the surface of the moon will be performed to obtain the required fuel, which is the fundamental premise of the movie "Moon".

This is repeated a lot, but the practicalities are... questionable. Here's an article I consider to be the definitive criticism of the concept:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2834/1

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by themagician on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:23PM (#37093577)
I find the geometry of things like this fascinating. We typically think in such simple shapes. I feel like my brain can do triangle, rectangle and maybe hexagons and that's about it. I remember when I finally understood radians enough to really understand circles and waveforms—I felt so enlightened. Like I actually remember the moment when it clicked. For years I was just "doing the work" without actually understanding what I was doing, but once I was able to understand it… it's like something changed in my brain.

I want to be able to think in mobius, but my brain is currently like, "No thanks."

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by willis936 on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:41PM (#37093740)
They're actually quite simple geometries in the right (unintuitive and warped) coordinate system.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by sdwr on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:35PM (#37093679)
I'll argue that "thinking in mobius" is simpler than thinking in circles, and more true to life than thinking in basic shapes.

The core concepts in mobius-land are local curvature and global cumulative field.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by stjohnswarts on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:55PM (#37093896)
Sorry those just aren't the way the average joe on the street thinks about things.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:45PM (#37093786)
Doing CAD design is really interesting. A lot of stuff is just 2.5D, extrusions of 2D sketches sitting on other 2D sketches.

Then you accidentally make something truly 3D by intersecting things and realize you have no idea what you're looking at, couldn't imagine it if you closed your eyes, couldn't replicate it if you had a picture of the result and didn't know the 2D inputs that made it... and then you realize there are probably people out there who can see that entire design in their head.

To me it's like unicycling on a tightrope or skateboarding or realistic oil painting or playing piano well. I have no real concept or reference point for what that experience must be like.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by p1mrx on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:06PM (#37094036)
Just drawing a 3D slanted plane to match the front of my printer made my head hurt: https://www.printables.com/model/526981-ender-3-s1-quad-z-br...
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waldothedog on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:00PM (#37094587)
Interesting. With a very strong reference for the experience of skateboarding, reading your sentence made me think about how hard it is to explain! I suppose when it’s going well, it feels like body/mind flow, when it’s going poorly it feels like physics :)
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:56AM (#37098048)
That kind of thing is super amazing! I've secretly suspected for a while that people who are able to skateboard or do similar things must live in 4 or 5 dimensions.

I can't figure out any kind of way someone could do that with anything resembling what I understand "thought" to be like, so I assume you must be able to process entire sequences and their alternate possibilities simultaneously?

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:55PM (#37096882)
Coming from 3d sculpting to CAD was...eye opening. It really makes you realize how much of design constrained by the CAD tools, which are mostly constrained by manufacturability.

If true 3d printing* ever gets cheap, it'll be interesting to see how much form will be able follow function, rather than manufacturing cost.

* true 3d, as in overhang are allowed. Something like a cheap FDM is more 2.5d, since overhangs aren't allowed.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by oefnak on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:08AM (#37097208)
You can print with supports to print any shape.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:38AM (#37117823)
Supports made from the same material are extremely limiting, like for parts that contain others. For FDM, dual material is required, one of them being, in some way, “dissolvable”. There are some water soluble filaments that make true 3d possible.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:48AM (#37098008)
Overhangs up to 45 degrees work fine, and usually steeper. Bridges also work, most of the time, although I am having trouble with them at the moment.

They're not quite unconstrained, and the layer adhesion strength makes some geometries not strong, but they're much more than 2.5D.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by rkagerer on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:39AM (#37098251)
Well, there's SLS which is tolerant of overhangs and other exotic features. Formlabs has a machine in the 5 digit price range, and I wouldn't be surprised to see competitors come out with a 4-digit one in the near future.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:31PM (#37112067)
You could probably build a 4-axis FDM machine for less than that too, which might be better for average users(No powder mess)
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:17PM (#37122812)
The axis count isn't the limiting factor. 4 axis will still require soluble supports to achieve what SLS can (captured parts).
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dmm10 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:58AM (#37100836)
With powder bed printers overhangs and detached captured parts aren't a problem. Try making your own from an old inkjet printer.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Halfwhit on Sunday August 13, 2023 @10:39AM (#37110453)
Where could someone interested in doing this learn more?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by jkestner on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:57PM (#37096897)
CAD is hard! I think about this a lot as I'm doing a makerspace at an elementary school and adults think it needs a 3D printer, but what are kids going to print on it?

I think for me, the prerequisites for mastering CAD were 1) the practice I got visualizing 3D shapes so I could translate them into unambiguous mechanical drawings on paper (I swear, I'm not that old but my college was behind and we were the last class to actually do mechanical drawings with a pencil), and 2) having a procedural thought process from coding so that I could sequence the CAD operations to get where I want.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by RRWagner on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:09AM (#37096959)
Try Blockscad3d.com

It's a block language where you program the object rather than manipulate shapes. It works well for my brain. Ymmv

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by pineaux on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:08AM (#37098112)
Grasshopper for rhino is awesome too. It's actually really relevant for this topic. It's the only syste I know that integrates so well into a precise cad design system and also allows you to do complex stuff easily. I love it. Drawing a stellarator precisely is probably not that hard on it... Will see if I can throw something out quickly today.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:15PM (#37102768)
For me CAD is pretty much the opposite, I rely heavily on the apps, I spent about a week trying to learn to draw before deciding I didn't really want to spend months or years on it.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, I mostly only do incidental CAD and hobby level work, so it's not really essential to have the deep understanding of space that real MEs need.

I often don't know what sequence of operations I'll need until I actually open the app. Generally it's more of an "Oh I need a mounting hole, lets look around on the screen and see where one could go" thing, a lot of the thinking is in the app rather than in the mind.

Of course you can't make nicely parametric things without a lot more thought so I will often wind up having to redo things that aren't one offs...

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dekhn on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:01PM (#37093986)
I can't really think in (visualize) 3d shapes, so I depend a lot on 3D geometry programs when I design things like for my microscope. A fair number of people I've talked to can visualize complex shapes in their head, rotate them around, do interference checking, etc.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by wizzwizz4 on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:17PM (#37095197)
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:57PM (#37095833)
What about those tests where they say to fold a piece of paper X number of times, and then punch holes in specific places. You then have to pick the image of what the paper would look like unfolded. Do these types of visualizations give you the same issue? I have known several people that just could not visualize these tests, and I'm curious if these are related.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:26PM (#37122923)
Apparently this is called the "Paper folding test": http://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/brace/resources/Paper%20Folding%20...
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:48PM (#37094464)
Yea they are kinda confusing, especially when you get into the 3D ones like klien bottles and roman surfaces. I also recently learned that if you make a mobius shaped transmission line (like a ladder line) and you send a pulse down it, that pulse will continue looping until it dissipates (or forever if it is a superconductor).

https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/21001-printed-reso...

I have no idea if there are any advantages over a simple planar circular loop though.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by colordrops on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:28PM (#37094821)
Are real life superconductors ideal, i.e. they truly would store a charge forever (at least until the material disintegrated)? Or is there some sort of loss, albeit much less than typical resistance?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by klodolph on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:20PM (#37095214)
1. Something “in a superconducting state” has zero resistance, but the transition to superconducting states is not sudden, and there are various things which disrupt that state like magnetic fields.

2. Alternating currents will dissipate even with zero resistance, because the circuit will emit EM waves.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:46PM (#37095764)
Ladder lines are balanced transmission lines, so they do not emit EM radiation.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by klodolph on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:20PM (#37095981)
Wouldn’t that require kind of an idealized transmission line, not just a superconducting one?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:32PM (#37096050)
Yes. I don't think super conduncting ressonators of any design are perfect.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:01PM (#37095854)
So long as you do not exceed a certain current, they have zero resistance. There are other forms of parasitics though that can effect it.

Those crazy electromagnets they use on these stellarator are simple superconducting loops that they 'charge' by inducing a current. That current is maintained so long as the superconductor stays below a certain temp. There is even something called a SMES (superconducting magnetic energy storage) that stores power this way, as I understand it they have a 0% self discharge rate.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by colordrops on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:25AM (#37097288)
Is the charge static or in motion? If in motion, isn't this basically a perpetual motion machine? Electrons have mass right?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:39AM (#37097348)
In motion. Yes it is perpetual motion. The same thing can be observed in superfluids.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by adrianN on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:44AM (#37097669)
It is my understanding that electrons on a curved trajectory will lose energy to electromagnetic radiation. Is that not the with electrons in a superconductor?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by thibauts on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:03AM (#37100289)
That is my understanding also. I would very much like an expert answer on this one !
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by klodolph on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @12:34AM (#37142908)
If you have a single free electron, and move it on a curved trajectory, you’ll see electromagnetic radiation.

If you have a hypothetical continuum of charges moving in a circle, and you use Maxwell’s equations, you’ll find that given a constant charge density, no EM radiation will be emitted.

If you have a superconductor, you should really be using quantum mechanics to understand it. If you can imagine that an electron can “orbit” a nucleus without emitting EM radiation, then you can imagine that current can flow in a loop without emitting EM radiation. The behavior cannot be explained by thinking of the behavior of a single electron, but must be explained by considering the behavior of many electrons in a quantum mechanical system.

Also note that the actual speed of electrons (the “drift velocity”) moving around a loop of wire is extremely low, so if you treat electrons as point charges and ignore quantum mechanics, and you calculate the amount of EM radiation that should be emitted by a typical loop of wire, you will get an extremely low amount EM radiation emitted, which would be very difficult to measure.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by adrianN on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @02:11PM (#37151227)
Brilliant, thank you
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:53PM (#37095809)
>I want to be able to think in mobius, but my brain is currently like, "No thanks."

I spent a lot time staring at Escher images as a teen, so I think my brain says "yes please". I have no idea what to do with any of it, so it's not like it does me any good.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by hobs on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:32AM (#37097077)
Just play Asteroids, congrats, add a twist between certain edges (which would manifest as a flip) and you now are in the mobius.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Simon_O_Rourke on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:41PM (#37093735)
Just curious as to why a Mobius strip type arrangement is better than a toroid? Is it anything to do with the turbulence in the plasma flow being easier to control?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:59PM (#37093944)
These are great questions for someone more knowledgable, but as I understand it, If you follow a single point on the surface all the way around the loop, it will spend as much time in high confinement as it does in low confinement.

That explains why folding is important, as for the mobius, I oversimplified a bit. The Wendelstein has 5 folds, making it a mobius, but I think I read about one in Spain that had only 4 folds. That would mean the mobius isn't imperitive, but I'm sure there is a good reason for it.

Really a stellerator doesn't need 'folding' at all, they can be as simple as a twisted torroid. I didn't want to go into excruciating detail though, the more in detail I go the more likely I am to say something that is wrong lol.

Edit: I looked it up, the one in spain is called "TJ-II"

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by NovaDudely on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:19PM (#37095604)
First thing that comes to mind is like twisted pairing on cables. Distributes the external/internal forces more equally. Is it anything like this?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:09PM (#37095913)
No, twisted pair wires are really cool but different. When you push current down one wire you pull current down the other. The signal is passed through the differential of those 2 wires. If the wire is hit with EM interference, that change will be seen as a 'common mode voltage', that is, both wires will be 'pushed' or 'pulled' the same amount, and you won't see a differential.

That effect works both ways too, where a single wire with a digital signal will spew out radio waves, 2 wires with opposing signal cancel each other out and emit no em waves.

The effect with the stellarator is more like stirring a pot.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by NovaDudely on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:23PM (#37105411)
Thank you for the clear explanation! I love it!
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Bjartr on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:26PM (#37094255)
I think it's about ensuring the plasma heat/energy distribution is more uniform so you get fewer outlier particles with high enough energy to escape confinement and damage the interior of the reactor. Or something like that.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by extrapickles on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:56PM (#37095068)
It primarily has to do with the physical construction of the magnets, in a toroid the inside of the toroid effectively has more windings per meter of circumference than the outside causing uneven containment.

With mobius strip you regularly flip between inside and outside, so the plasma particles get more even force applied.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by cyberax on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:43PM (#37096816)
It's actually really easy to explain.

Draw a torus and then draw rectangular "bands" across it, they will represent the containment magnets.

Due to pure geometry, the area closer to the center will have a smaller distance between bars. This means that the magnetic field will be stronger near the center.

This in turn means that particles will separate (depending on charge) and drift to the sides. It seriously interferes with the containment.

You can fix that by changing the torus into something resembling "8", so that particles move to one side when they fly through the upper part, but then they'll move back as they fly through the lower part.

Of course, you can't just do that in 2D because the part in the middle of "8" will have no magnetic field. You need something without self-intersections. You can try to move one side up and another down. But that doesn't quite work either because you will get another set of preferred directions.

So instead you go with the gentle twisting, resulting in the Möbius-looking shape.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by MBCook on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:10AM (#37096968)
How do Tokamaks solve the issue since they’re still torus shaped?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by RedShift1 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:18AM (#37097247)
Brute force: just use stronger magnetic fields to contain the plasma.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by cyberax on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:41AM (#37097360)
They don't. As a result, they have to be much larger, so that the difference in the field strength is low enough.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by tw061023 on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:49PM (#37093824)
What's interesting is that stellarator actually is not just an alternative, but a wholly parallel branch of evolution - it's not like one was invented strictly after another, and the authors of both designs never knew about the other's work before they completed theirs.

What's even more interesting is that the fusor - the simplest possible design for a thermonuclear reactor, so simple that anyone skilled in electrical engineering and having access to proper civilan equipment can build one with ease - seems to be invented _after_ both stellarator and tokamak.

That said, I never particularly liked stellarator design. The very _complexity_ of it somehow feels subtly wrong, like doubling down in the wrong direction.

However, this is one of the cases where I would absolutely love to be proven wrong. We are far past due big breakthroughs in the field.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:09PM (#37094073)
Compared to a tokamak, the stellarator bring engineering efficiency while matching performance. Though ideas for the tokamak and the stellarator may have emerged together, the main reason tokamaks were built first is because they COULD be built. Without computer-assisted magnet design, stellarators simply couldn't be properly built; the magnetic geometries are just too complex.

In the long run, it's not known stellarators will be the eventual winner in the long race for a viable fusion reactor. The attributes in a winner will be net-positive operational efficiency and superior energy harvesting abilities. Perhaps multiple approaches will be viable.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by tw061023 on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:44PM (#37094952)
I understand the theory. I just hope I will live long enough to see a winner in this race.

To be honest, I've been interested in the domain for quite a time and I still want to build a fusor or a polywell at some point just to see it glow. Probably won't happen though.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:29AM (#37097587)
The most difficult parts to obtain will be the power supply and vacuum chamber. Still, there's nothing like garage fusion!
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by jcheng on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:47PM (#37094980)
> The very _complexity_ of it somehow feels subtly wrong, like doubling down in the wrong direction.

This made me think of modern jet fighters being designed to be aerodynamically unstable, making them all but impossible for human pilots to operate without flight computers. Apparently the maneuverability benefits make the added complexity more than worth it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting...

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by avar on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:32PM (#37095301)

    > The very _complexity_ of it
    > somehow feels subtly wrong.
Why is in complex? Because it's not all square corners or a donut shape?

I understand that it was hard to build, but isn't that just because it's a one-off?

Any one part of the inside of it looks no more oddly shaped than the outside of any modern car, and we've managed to scale that.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by fpoling on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:25AM (#37098751)
The big plus of stellarator design is inherent absence of plasma instabilities affecting tokamaks. Notice that future upgrade of Wendelstein may allow to hold plasma for a hour compared with minutes at best with tokamaks. Many physicists for that reason believes stellarator is the only way to archive practical fusion.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by rkangel on Friday August 18, 2023 @06:21AM (#37173649)
> The very _complexity_ of it somehow feels subtly wrong, like doubling down in the wrong direction

I read an article a while ago which sold me on the stellarator that said something like: "The tokamak has magnets in a configuration that gives simple engineering but hard physics, whereas the stellarator has hard engineering to make a complex magnet but that results in simple physics".

The engineering is a much more understood beast. It was still fairly novel as they had to have a computer do the design of the magnets, but that is now a solved problem. But then if that allows us to simplify the (very difficult and novel) physics it feels like the "obviously" correct decision.

The other thing that makes me a stellarator fan is that the JET/ITER work is later and more expensive that predicted at every stage. The W7-X provided a plan for the runs they wanted to do and upgrades to the reactor and they have basically run entirely to schedule.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:49PM (#37095785)
Even just reading "mobius" and I cannot not hear the line from Warf "There is this theory of the mobious. It twists in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop. Time becomes a loop. Time becomes a loop." Of course, I'm referencing the Orbital track
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by mastersummoner on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:58PM (#37096205)
I've listened to that song hundreds of times yet somehow never realized it was Worf.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @10:12PM (#37096294)
I didn't either, since I spelled it Warf! I never watched Star Trek (probably get my HN privileges revoked for that), but I did know that much. And then the Reading Rainbow guy's "whatever happened will happen again". I know the character's name is Geordie or whatever, but he didn't have the right accent for him to be a Geordie, so he will forever be Reading Rainbow guy instead.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by downvotetruth on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:50PM (#37096855)
Kunta Kinte is closer to his roots.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by noduerme on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:25AM (#37098470)
Wow. A triple play.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by hinkley on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:59PM (#37096912)
He could have been the Jeopardy guy too.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:04AM (#37096935)
But I didn't grow up watching him on Jeopardy, so no, he would never be that guy either.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by TecoAndJix on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:05AM (#37098941)
Ken J was a much better choice
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by yoz on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:34PM (#37104446)
> I know the character's name is Geordie or whatever, but he didn't have the right accent for him to be a Geordie

it’s a fair demand to make, given that his TV predecessor was called Scotty and DID have a Scottish accent

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dTal on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:08PM (#37113134)
I can't believe I've gone my entire life without noticing the obvious wordplay... even after seeing the Futurama parody with "Welshy"!
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by fastball on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:01AM (#37096921)
Genuine question: why? That isn't even a song, it's just a vinyl record skipping for a minute and a half.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:12AM (#37096973)
I think you're not considering the first album with an actual track called Mobius. Your thinking of the opening cut on Orbital II (the brown album). That one is the one where the "where time becomes a loop" becomes fun. The Mobius track is the one where "whatever happens, will happen again" is also included. Sorry, but I will have to deduct Orbital fanboi points, and you will lose your next turn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PG5PCd284o

Edit: But as to the why, it's fun. Just like the "input/output translation" trickery.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by egypturnash on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:26AM (#37097295)
It's two copies of "...where time becomes a loop." One on the left, one on the right. One of them is slightly shorter than the other, so that as they repeat again and again, they slide in and out of phase. The track ends after they come back into phase.

If you listen to this with headphones, or speakers with decent separation, paying attention to this feels interesting. It's similar to the way listening to "binaural beats" can do interesting things to your brain.

Also if you are in the habit of putting an entire album on repeat and this is one of your favorite albums, then you've probably heard this a zillion times. If you have your music player set in "randomize by album" mode, then, well, it's the first track on this album, so every time it comes up you'll hear most of it unless you instantly decide you are not in the mood for Orbital 2, and even if you're not in that mood it may be pleasant to let everything come back into phase before going to another album.

----

The next track on the album starts up entirely in the left ear, with a tinny, distant little loop, and the words "Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day". Once it brings in a deep bass, this bass is also doing some weird cross-ear phasing things.

And then the third track also opens with "Even a stopped clock..."; a theme has been established at this point. Time is a loop, and a stopped clock is right twice a day. The opening of "where time becomes a loop" is also a bit of a joke; Orbital's musical craft is very much about making a bunch of short loops that work together, and bringing them in and out over each other for four to seven minutes. Occasionally as much as thirty minutes, the extended version of "The Box" is glorious. This is something that utterly dominates most electronic dance music now, but Orbital was one of the first notable acts to really go hard on this, and this is their second album; they are saying "yes it's just more loops, we think they're good loops, enjoy!".

By the time you get to the last track, you've probably forgotten about Worf's repeated mantra. Especially if it's your first time listening to the whole thing and Halcyon + On + On just blew all the cobwebs out of your head. But Orbital returns to the idea, with two different loops that are very close in sound and length, played on both channels: "Input Translation"/"Output Rotation". They begin in phase with each other, drift out, and come back together. And the album is over.

Or, if you have the CD player on repeat (remember, this album is from a time when people bought CDs and probably stuck them into a one-disc player, maybe a 3 or 5-disc player if they were lucky, and the whole album is built with an awareness of this), you're back where you began, inputs translated and outputs rotated, and ready to be reminded of the Theory of the Moebius.

Time has become a loop. Come out of the trance Orbital has put you in. Do you want to experience this loop again? Does it feel rude to jump to another album before Worf's come back into phase again? You may as well let him get you back in sync with the moment the album began before going back into normal time.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:47AM (#37097389)
>remember, this album is from a time when people bought CDs and probably stuck them into a one-disc player

You just describe the first time I every danced with Lucy. I went back and forth with this disc and The Orb's A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Brain That Rules from the Centre of the Ultraworld.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dr_dshiv on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:06AM (#37098096)
Same!
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by yoz on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:32PM (#37104431)
BEST HN THREAD EVER (and WOW is that an essential explanation of the first two Orbital albums)

is this where we talk about

- the 39:59 mix of The Orb’s “Blue Room” (which, like several other Orb singles, is better than the album version thanks to Jah Wobble providing a proper bassline)

- the academically-verified lack of repetitiveness in Autechre’s “Flutter”

- and Orbital’s “Criminal Justice Bill?” on the “Are We Here” CD single, which is four minutes of silence

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:35PM (#37105176)
Funny thing about Blue Room, but that was the first time I had ever heard of Haile Selassie, then I was told that sample is a comedy bit from a prank call or whatever.

The Orb Live '93 CD was one of those that if a CD could wear out like a cassette, that would have been one (two technically) that would have from my collection.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by egypturnash on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:02PM (#37105299)
Fifty-odd years old and I've still never acquired that stuff. Wonder what would be different if I had.

Those two albums sound like a pretty good soundtrack for making a good trip more likely!

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by osi on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:20AM (#37117424)
bravo sir very well explained.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by imtringued on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:22AM (#37098743)
It not only works. It beats tokamak reactors by orders of magnitude to the point that it and ITER are the only fusion reactors that even matter, so saying that you forgot about one of the most important fusion reactors in history is highly condescending.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by rolandog on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:59AM (#37098914)
> The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor.

They should've gone with a catchier name like "forbidden cruller".