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Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by white_dragon88 on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:24PM (#37092805)
You know enough to say more. Say more!
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by gabereiser on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:27PM (#37092852)
Seconded. This is fascinating stuff and reminds me of some crazy rant some guy was telling me about anti-gravity and how electromagnetic “ribbons” could propel you. Obviously the guy was nuts, right? How would one go about learning more about electromagnetic plasma containment folding?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by StackOverlord on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:42PM (#37093064)
> Dr. Ning Li of Huntsville, AL passed peacefully away on July 27, 2021. She was 79 years old. One of the world's leading scientists in super-conductivity anti-gravity. Dr. Li had constructed first 12" HTSD of the world in late 90s.

https://www.berryhillfh.com/obituary/ning-li?lud=4CF765EE88E...

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by gabereiser on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:34PM (#37102951)
I just read a bunch of stuff about her from her son. About how he took care of her in her advanced years and her alzheimer's disease. Sad but also peculiar about her DoD work and how she "never talked about it". I wonder what it was? trying to get an alien craft working again? developing anti-gravity weapon? a ship? a hoverboard? please say it was a hoverboard.

Her claim that "You can take a bowling ball and place it and it will stay." is fascinating. I would love to see footage/video of this. Small electro marbles and globes are one thing, a bowling ball or other large non-magnetic object!? man oh man!

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:41PM (#37093050)
Haha, no I am just some random guy who reads too many Wikipedia articles. "Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about.

My explanation was definitely over simplified, but I'm not knowledgable enough to go into detail on the topic. I can't even point you towards something to read on the topic since everything I read about it is like 15 years old at this point.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by tootie on Friday August 11, 2023 @03:51PM (#37093181)
If a Hollywood screenwriter were naming a crazy science device, they would come up with something like Wendelstien 7-X
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by tboughen on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:10PM (#37093399)
My favourite fact about it comes from https://phys.org/news/2016-02-plasma-physicist-discusses-wen...

“…the supporting structure can only withstand the forces if the interfaces between the ten individual segments of the central rings, which weighs several tonnes, are built with a level of precision of less than 100 millionths of a metre…” - and they found a small family business in the north of Italy capable of doing this!

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dale_glass on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:26PM (#37093602)
Odd units.

1 meter = 100 cm = 1000mm.

So 1 millionth of a meter = 1/1000th of 1mm.

thus, 100 millionths of a meter = 0.1mm, or ~4 thou in American units. Easily achievable by hobbyists, let alone by serious, professional equipment.

Sure, that is a pretty exacting specification for what I suppose is a big machine, but I'm pretty sure very normal things like say, car engines get made to far tighter tolerances.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Retric on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:36PM (#37093692)
You messed up at your last step 1 millionth = 1mm, 10 millionth = 0.1mm, 100 millionth = 0.01mm

0.01mm is very difficult when you’re talking large custom objects with complex shapes.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dale_glass on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:44PM (#37093771)
Oh, English fail on my part then. I had assumed that 100 millionths of a metre == 100 * 1/1000000.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eis on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:27PM (#37094262)
The german site of the source speaks of 0.1mm so you were correct

   > bei Toleranzen von teilweise nur 0,1 Millimeter
https://www.ipp.mpg.de/de/aktuelles/presse/pi/2020/01_20
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Retric on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:00PM (#37095099)
No your correct, I just read it wrong.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by starkrights on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:54PM (#37093885)
I think the original commenter is right- correct me if I missed what you’re getting at.

Keeping it all in the same units until the end here:

1 millionth of 1 meter = (1 / 1,000,000)m = (1e-6m)

1 millionth * 100 = 100 millionths => (1e-6m) * 100 = (1e-4m) = 100 millionths

(1e-4m) = .0001m | 1m = 1000mm => .0001m*1000 = .1mm

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Retric on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:49PM (#37094995)
Ops, 100 ( 1 millionths of a meter) is a much more reasonable tolerance here than 1 / 100 millionths of a meter.

I am to used to people saying 100 millionth of a meter to mean 10 nm or 0.01 µm which would have looked insane if I had written that.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dekhn on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:09PM (#37094070)
millionths of a meter are known as micron so most people would call this '100 micron' (or '100 micrometers') which is indeed close to 4 thou, as you calculated, and is the level of accuracy of my ~$500 3d printer.

1 thou was achievable in routine shops in the 1940s and a tenth of a thou (2.54 micron) is a common accuracy to target these days. Obviously it depends on the context and the size of the object, at some point you move away from cutting to using grinding and lapping to achieve your results, which is ultra-timeconsuming.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by kortex on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:35AM (#37097090)
What usually matters more than absolute tolerances is relative tolerance, aka ppm. 100 micron / 4 thou tolerance can be achieved with hand tools and a bit of patience on the benchtop scale, say a 4" part. That's about 1000 ppm, or 0.1%. If I gave you a meter stick, you could probably eyeball marking something +/- 1mm.

Getting the same finish on a 120"/3m coil is 33 ppm. 100 ppm / 0.01% for any operation or process tends to be where things start to get really challenging. Deflection goes up by the length cubed, so increasing the size of all the tooling relative to the tolerance gets really challenging really fast.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:59PM (#37095842)
>"Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about.

Or the very person that someone with a show like Art Bell would have as a guest.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:51PM (#37093851)
I'm not that guy, but I can speak to what you're asking. I've followed Wendelstein 7-X for almost a decade.

Nuclear fusion occurs at extremely-high temperatures. As you heat your fusion fuel to sufficiently-high temperatures to allow fusion, the matter transitions into a plasma, which is great: plasmas react to electromagnetic fields. As such, a major challenge with achieving viable nuclear fusion is making a vessel capable of holding the fusion reaction. Because we can't create on-demand gravity wells, the next best option for confinement is using electromagnetic fields to hold the plasma in the air.

So, you now have an "electromagnetic bottle" capable of suspending a fusion reaction above the reactor's walls. Now, you have another issue: how do you ensure the fuel will sufficiently mix to sustain a fusion reaction? One approach is to move the plasma in a loop. The topologically-simplest method to accomplish this loop is the torus. Such a plasma-confinement device is called a tokamak. A tokamak uses two magnetic fields, torodial and polodial, to accomplish its task. The torodial field is driven through the plasma to push it forward, while the polodial field pulls the plasma in toward the center. Proper balance of these fields will allow the plasma to circuit the vessel following a helical path, achieving confinement.

However, driving two separate magnetic fields is energy-intensive, and a successful fusion reactor will want to minimize its own power consumption to maximize the amount available for external usage. Enter the stellarator. The stellarator also drives the plasma around in a circle, it but uses a single magnetic field. How? It "tricks" the plasma into "thinking" there's only one magnetic field by using computer-optimized magnets with highly-complex geometries. This provides stellarators with a major engineering advantage over tokamaks and is a primary reason Wendelstein 7-X would have chosen it.

With the confinement vessel topology largely identified, the next main step is to figure out how to build a vessel able to contain a sustained fusion reaction. For context, fusion experiments traditionally only operate on timescales of milliseconds to maybe a second. The reason? Fusion occurs at millions of degrees, and keeping the reaction vessel cool, ensuring a continuous supply of fuel, and dealing with reaction "exhaust" (e.g., alpha particles) and stray high-energy neutrons from the common deuterium-tritium reaction (which irradiate your reactor walls because neutrons don't react with electomagnetic fields) is a major, major engineering challenge. Any operational, net-positive fusion reactor must be able to operate for days, weeks, and months on end.

What Wendelstein 7-X has been attempting to do for years is demonstrate that building such a vessel is even possible. Their overall goal is to sustain a fusion reaction for about 30 minutes. Such a timescale will show a proof-of-concept system which enables sustained fusion reactions to occur.

Currently, the preferred fuel is deuterium-tritium because the fuel is generally available and has an attainable fusion temperature. The stray neutron issue can be mitigated by lining reactor walls with lithium to breed tritium fuel. Even better is to use the helium3-helium3 reaction, which completely annihilate to produce pure energy as the output (welcome to e=mc^2, enjoy your stay). The main holdups are: (1) the reaction occurs at much higher temperatures than deuterium-tritium, and (2) he(lium)3 is quite scarce on Earth. Once Wendelstein 7-X shows how to engineer a proper confinement vessel at a "lower" temperature, you can then work on the higher temperature levels required for he3-he3. Also, he3 is plentiful on the surface of the moon, so mining the surface of the moon will be performed to obtain the required fuel, which is the fundamental premise of the movie "Moon".

Someone asked for information on electromagnetic plasma containment folding. I recommend reading up on magnetohydrodynamics (MHD). It's the mathematical and physical foundation of your interest.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:18PM (#37094163)
One guy asked why the mobius aspect is needed and I couldn't answer. I know a lot of stellarators aren't odd-period like Wendelstein, and the old designs didn't do folding at all. Do you know what improvements the mobius design has over something like TJ-II?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:35PM (#37094331)
The helical path creates a twist in the plasma which cancels out the drift forces. This is what I meant by "tricking" the plasma. User mjfl gives an even more technical explanation:

> By twisting the plasma into a shape where the curl of B (proportional to J) is parallel to B, i.e. a helix, the cross product is 0, and thus there are no net magnetohydrodynamic forces on the plasma.

Hope all that's a good answer for you.

> Mobius aspect

You might avoid using the word "Mobius" and instead use "helical." A Mobius strip is important because it has two faces which form a single surface. The surface aspect isn't relevant in this context, so a term which refers to the shape would likely dispel confusion in a reader.

As far as I'm aware, each section of a stellarator is periodic in its own right, which means the end and start points of each section are the same. Though I'm not certain, the choice of four versus five is more likely an engineering factor rather than one of physics, whereas the distinction between a tokamak and stellarator is of physics and not just engineering.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:00PM (#37094584)
If a 'particle' (I don't know a better word) finds itself near one of the top divertors, at the same point in the next orbit it will find itself near the bottom divertor. That is a product of the "mobius-like" shape, so although it isn't really a 'ribbon' and isn't really a mobius, it helps explain the concept concisely. I just don't know WHY that shape helps lol. Maybe it doesn't and it was just a practical design change like you said.

edit: changed language about the divertors.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:33AM (#37098505)
Did a little research to try and understand this better.

The most precise term to describe the "twisted ribbon" flux tube in W7-X is "toroidal helix". The toroidal quality comes from the general torus shape of the stellarator, and the helix quality comes from the twisting of the magnetic field by magnets. (The torus shape is required only topologically; look up the knotatron to see what I mean.)

The "ribbon" we're talking about is properly called the flux tube. The flux tube is the volume created by the flux surface, which is where the magnetic field lines lie. A given volume of plasma contained within a flux tube should remain inside it, causing magnetic confinement of the plasma.

The optimality of the confinement of the flux tube is expressed with the term "omnigeneity". Conceptually, a flux tube has onmigeneity if ideally all of the non-colliding plasma inside the tube stays in the tube. W7-X's flux tube appears to be approaching omnigenity. (Another experiment which approaches omnigenity is HSX. Interestingly, HSX has one set of primary magnets, whereas W7-X has two. That's likely because HSX achieves omnigenity via quasisymmetry, whereas W7-X uses various stellarator optimization techniques.)

With these points, we can call the W7-X "ribbon" a near-omnigenous toroidal helix flux tube, which sounds way cooler. So, all that said, why is a helical property desired? From what I've read, the twist in the flux surface reduces plasma drift inside the flux tube.

I think it makes sense to analogize this stuff as a circular semi-permeable pipe filled with a high-pressure "magic fluid" flowing around-and-around inside. By semi-permeable, it means fluid will leak from the pipe if the internal pressure is too high (remember that this is magic fluid). Trying to understand the helical twist along this analogy, I think the effect is evening of internal pressure across the pipe surface to reduce fluid turbulence and permeation while maximizing laminar flow. At least, that's my best analogous interpretation of "why" the twist helps.

The divertors are useful for long-term reactor operation but have no direct relevance to the magnetic field geometry. I'm guessing there's two divertors for engineering reasons (performance, redundancy, etc.) and not for reasons of basic physics.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by golem14 on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:49PM (#37095003)
I suppose that any number of twists would be OK, but the more twists, the less efficient ?

Is that what you are saying ? Or are there other constraints on the number of twists (e.g. must be odd, ...)

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @10:40PM (#37096461)
Yes I was referring to odd. But I've been reading some papers and I think even 4-fold had the mobius effect. I'll comment here again tomorrow when I have learned a bit more on the topic.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by huribfobcf on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:53PM (#37095812)
The terms (not specific to tokamaks) are "toroidal" and "poloidal". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_and_poloidal_coordina...
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:35AM (#37097619)
Oops, my bad on the typos. Thanks for the correction.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by less_less on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:31PM (#37096047)
> Even better is to use the helium3-helium3 reaction, which completely annihilate to produce pure energy as the output (welcome to e=mc^2, enjoy your stay).

It doesn't completely annihilate to produce pure energy. It produces helium-4 and two protons. Or you can react helium-3 + deuterium to produce helium-4 and one proton. The point is that helium-4 and protons are easier to shield against than neutrons, don't turn your reactor radioactive, and at least in theory their energy can be extracted directly (eg through induction) instead of through heat.

Edited to add: except helium-3 + deuterium still produces neutrons, because sometimes the deuterium will react with itself to produce helium-3 and a neutron.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waterheater on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:27AM (#37097574)
You're absolutely right, thank you for the correction. he3-he3 doesn't produce neutrons, which is the major advantage, in addition to the massive energy output.

Here's an interesting link which lists various fusion reactions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3#Nuclear_fuel

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by pschuegr on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:57PM (#37096199)
great comment, thanks - this is why I read HN
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by bombcar on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:06PM (#37096611)
I’m going to assume the name “waterheater” is from a prosaic way of naming a nuclear reactor.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dTal on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:19PM (#37113293)
>Also, he3 is plentiful on the surface of the moon, so mining the surface of the moon will be performed to obtain the required fuel, which is the fundamental premise of the movie "Moon".

This is repeated a lot, but the practicalities are... questionable. Here's an article I consider to be the definitive criticism of the concept:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2834/1