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Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by themagician on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:23PM (#37093577)
I find the geometry of things like this fascinating. We typically think in such simple shapes. I feel like my brain can do triangle, rectangle and maybe hexagons and that's about it. I remember when I finally understood radians enough to really understand circles and waveforms—I felt so enlightened. Like I actually remember the moment when it clicked. For years I was just "doing the work" without actually understanding what I was doing, but once I was able to understand it… it's like something changed in my brain.

I want to be able to think in mobius, but my brain is currently like, "No thanks."

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by willis936 on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:41PM (#37093740)
They're actually quite simple geometries in the right (unintuitive and warped) coordinate system.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by sdwr on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:35PM (#37093679)
I'll argue that "thinking in mobius" is simpler than thinking in circles, and more true to life than thinking in basic shapes.

The core concepts in mobius-land are local curvature and global cumulative field.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by stjohnswarts on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:55PM (#37093896)
Sorry those just aren't the way the average joe on the street thinks about things.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Friday August 11, 2023 @04:45PM (#37093786)
Doing CAD design is really interesting. A lot of stuff is just 2.5D, extrusions of 2D sketches sitting on other 2D sketches.

Then you accidentally make something truly 3D by intersecting things and realize you have no idea what you're looking at, couldn't imagine it if you closed your eyes, couldn't replicate it if you had a picture of the result and didn't know the 2D inputs that made it... and then you realize there are probably people out there who can see that entire design in their head.

To me it's like unicycling on a tightrope or skateboarding or realistic oil painting or playing piano well. I have no real concept or reference point for what that experience must be like.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by p1mrx on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:06PM (#37094036)
Just drawing a 3D slanted plane to match the front of my printer made my head hurt: https://www.printables.com/model/526981-ender-3-s1-quad-z-br...
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by waldothedog on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:00PM (#37094587)
Interesting. With a very strong reference for the experience of skateboarding, reading your sentence made me think about how hard it is to explain! I suppose when it’s going well, it feels like body/mind flow, when it’s going poorly it feels like physics :)
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:56AM (#37098048)
That kind of thing is super amazing! I've secretly suspected for a while that people who are able to skateboard or do similar things must live in 4 or 5 dimensions.

I can't figure out any kind of way someone could do that with anything resembling what I understand "thought" to be like, so I assume you must be able to process entire sequences and their alternate possibilities simultaneously?

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:55PM (#37096882)
Coming from 3d sculpting to CAD was...eye opening. It really makes you realize how much of design constrained by the CAD tools, which are mostly constrained by manufacturability.

If true 3d printing* ever gets cheap, it'll be interesting to see how much form will be able follow function, rather than manufacturing cost.

* true 3d, as in overhang are allowed. Something like a cheap FDM is more 2.5d, since overhangs aren't allowed.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by oefnak on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:08AM (#37097208)
You can print with supports to print any shape.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:38AM (#37117823)
Supports made from the same material are extremely limiting, like for parts that contain others. For FDM, dual material is required, one of them being, in some way, “dissolvable”. There are some water soluble filaments that make true 3d possible.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:48AM (#37098008)
Overhangs up to 45 degrees work fine, and usually steeper. Bridges also work, most of the time, although I am having trouble with them at the moment.

They're not quite unconstrained, and the layer adhesion strength makes some geometries not strong, but they're much more than 2.5D.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by rkagerer on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:39AM (#37098251)
Well, there's SLS which is tolerant of overhangs and other exotic features. Formlabs has a machine in the 5 digit price range, and I wouldn't be surprised to see competitors come out with a 4-digit one in the near future.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:31PM (#37112067)
You could probably build a 4-axis FDM machine for less than that too, which might be better for average users(No powder mess)
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:17PM (#37122812)
The axis count isn't the limiting factor. 4 axis will still require soluble supports to achieve what SLS can (captured parts).
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dmm10 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:58AM (#37100836)
With powder bed printers overhangs and detached captured parts aren't a problem. Try making your own from an old inkjet printer.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by Halfwhit on Sunday August 13, 2023 @10:39AM (#37110453)
Where could someone interested in doing this learn more?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by jkestner on Friday August 11, 2023 @11:57PM (#37096897)
CAD is hard! I think about this a lot as I'm doing a makerspace at an elementary school and adults think it needs a 3D printer, but what are kids going to print on it?

I think for me, the prerequisites for mastering CAD were 1) the practice I got visualizing 3D shapes so I could translate them into unambiguous mechanical drawings on paper (I swear, I'm not that old but my college was behind and we were the last class to actually do mechanical drawings with a pencil), and 2) having a procedural thought process from coding so that I could sequence the CAD operations to get where I want.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by RRWagner on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:09AM (#37096959)
Try Blockscad3d.com

It's a block language where you program the object rather than manipulate shapes. It works well for my brain. Ymmv

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by pineaux on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:08AM (#37098112)
Grasshopper for rhino is awesome too. It's actually really relevant for this topic. It's the only syste I know that integrates so well into a precise cad design system and also allows you to do complex stuff easily. I love it. Drawing a stellarator precisely is probably not that hard on it... Will see if I can throw something out quickly today.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by eternityforest on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:15PM (#37102768)
For me CAD is pretty much the opposite, I rely heavily on the apps, I spent about a week trying to learn to draw before deciding I didn't really want to spend months or years on it.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, I mostly only do incidental CAD and hobby level work, so it's not really essential to have the deep understanding of space that real MEs need.

I often don't know what sequence of operations I'll need until I actually open the app. Generally it's more of an "Oh I need a mounting hole, lets look around on the screen and see where one could go" thing, a lot of the thinking is in the app rather than in the mind.

Of course you can't make nicely parametric things without a lot more thought so I will often wind up having to redo things that aren't one offs...

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dekhn on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:01PM (#37093986)
I can't really think in (visualize) 3d shapes, so I depend a lot on 3D geometry programs when I design things like for my microscope. A fair number of people I've talked to can visualize complex shapes in their head, rotate them around, do interference checking, etc.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by wizzwizz4 on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:17PM (#37095197)
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:57PM (#37095833)
What about those tests where they say to fold a piece of paper X number of times, and then punch holes in specific places. You then have to pick the image of what the paper would look like unfolded. Do these types of visualizations give you the same issue? I have known several people that just could not visualize these tests, and I'm curious if these are related.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by nomel on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:26PM (#37122923)
Apparently this is called the "Paper folding test": http://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/brace/resources/Paper%20Folding%20...
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @05:48PM (#37094464)
Yea they are kinda confusing, especially when you get into the 3D ones like klien bottles and roman surfaces. I also recently learned that if you make a mobius shaped transmission line (like a ladder line) and you send a pulse down it, that pulse will continue looping until it dissipates (or forever if it is a superconductor).

https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/21001-printed-reso...

I have no idea if there are any advantages over a simple planar circular loop though.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by colordrops on Friday August 11, 2023 @06:28PM (#37094821)
Are real life superconductors ideal, i.e. they truly would store a charge forever (at least until the material disintegrated)? Or is there some sort of loss, albeit much less than typical resistance?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by klodolph on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:20PM (#37095214)
1. Something “in a superconducting state” has zero resistance, but the transition to superconducting states is not sudden, and there are various things which disrupt that state like magnetic fields.

2. Alternating currents will dissipate even with zero resistance, because the circuit will emit EM waves.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:46PM (#37095764)
Ladder lines are balanced transmission lines, so they do not emit EM radiation.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by klodolph on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:20PM (#37095981)
Wouldn’t that require kind of an idealized transmission line, not just a superconducting one?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:32PM (#37096050)
Yes. I don't think super conduncting ressonators of any design are perfect.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:01PM (#37095854)
So long as you do not exceed a certain current, they have zero resistance. There are other forms of parasitics though that can effect it.

Those crazy electromagnets they use on these stellarator are simple superconducting loops that they 'charge' by inducing a current. That current is maintained so long as the superconductor stays below a certain temp. There is even something called a SMES (superconducting magnetic energy storage) that stores power this way, as I understand it they have a 0% self discharge rate.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by colordrops on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:25AM (#37097288)
Is the charge static or in motion? If in motion, isn't this basically a perpetual motion machine? Electrons have mass right?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by KyleBerezin on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:39AM (#37097348)
In motion. Yes it is perpetual motion. The same thing can be observed in superfluids.
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by adrianN on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:44AM (#37097669)
It is my understanding that electrons on a curved trajectory will lose energy to electromagnetic radiation. Is that not the with electrons in a superconductor?
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by thibauts on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:03AM (#37100289)
That is my understanding also. I would very much like an expert answer on this one !
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by klodolph on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @12:34AM (#37142908)
If you have a single free electron, and move it on a curved trajectory, you’ll see electromagnetic radiation.

If you have a hypothetical continuum of charges moving in a circle, and you use Maxwell’s equations, you’ll find that given a constant charge density, no EM radiation will be emitted.

If you have a superconductor, you should really be using quantum mechanics to understand it. If you can imagine that an electron can “orbit” a nucleus without emitting EM radiation, then you can imagine that current can flow in a loop without emitting EM radiation. The behavior cannot be explained by thinking of the behavior of a single electron, but must be explained by considering the behavior of many electrons in a quantum mechanical system.

Also note that the actual speed of electrons (the “drift velocity”) moving around a loop of wire is extremely low, so if you treat electrons as point charges and ignore quantum mechanics, and you calculate the amount of EM radiation that should be emitted by a typical loop of wire, you will get an extremely low amount EM radiation emitted, which would be very difficult to measure.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by adrianN on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @02:11PM (#37151227)
Brilliant, thank you
Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by dylan604 on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:53PM (#37095809)
>I want to be able to think in mobius, but my brain is currently like, "No thanks."

I spent a lot time staring at Escher images as a teen, so I think my brain says "yes please". I have no idea what to do with any of it, so it's not like it does me any good.

Re:Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for ... by hobs on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:32AM (#37097077)
Just play Asteroids, congrats, add a twist between certain edges (which would manifest as a flip) and you now are in the mobius.