If you visit Georgia (the country, not the state), they have a cool system for cash payments to websites.

You go on the website, order your stuff. When the normal payment screen that comes up, instead of Mastercard or visa, you choose "Cash". You'll then be sent a text message with a number (or the number appears on the screen if you don't have a phone). You go to any ATM anywhere in the country, put that number into the ATM, feed the cash into the coin and note slot, and then your goods will be ordered.

The same system is used for paying taxes in cash, utility bills in cash, etc.

They can do refunds in cash using the same system.

You do pay a fairly hefty (10% if I remember correctly) fee for using that service though.

That is still depended on some sort of payment rails though, no? Bank, government or whoever can decline transactions to that “cash” action.

I think what is different though is they don't know what you're buying (I think).

Or it's accessible for those who operate without banks. I think there is a term for it, "unbanked" or something like that... there's some decent chunk of the population that doesn't have a bank account / can't get a credit card / etc.

Not sure why that would be any different than credit card payments, which don't itemize every purchase either - they still know how much and to what seller, tracking a seller and banning them seems just as easy.

What they don't get is the buyer's information.

...except for the time and place, with a device that almost certainly has cameras for theft deterrence. Which might be fine now, but seems pretty law-enforcement-capturable.

CC certainly has the capability for extremely granular and personal details. For now, this is usually restricted to hotel stays and airline trips. But the tech exists to encode quite a bit of information about both sides of a transaction and its nature.

>> But the tech exists to encode quite a bit of information about both sides of a transaction and its nature.

Which has monetary value and thus will be monetized, sooner or later.

CC's do get transaction information.

Check out "Level 3 data"

https://www.tidalcommerce.com/learn/what-is-level-3-data

As someone who has implemented code revolving around Level 3 data, the information provided is often of incredibly low quality.

Many shopping carts don't bother sending the data, because they'd rather say "let's support 900 obscure payment platforms in a de-minimis way" than "let's support a handful WELL"

Then there's actually getting the right information into the message to the processor. There's vague and inconsistent documentation on how to tag things like "commodity codes" and data formatting (Should the per-unit price be rendered as $12.79 or $12.7903?)

Even if you have the right intentions, you can easily blow things up by just having out-of-bounds data-- encoding a nonsense discount or tax rate.

What happens is that people set up software that sets up bare-minimum and mediocre data for every order that's good enough to get the "you sent level 3 data" rates, and the actual visibility is still quite poor.

Maybe there are some top-tier merchants who actually do everything right, but there's a hell of a lot of noise amid the signal.

I've done payments too, and I agree. But I'm assuming all the major retailers in the USA (Target/Walmart/Supermarkets) all do this. (And probably more with the data from the register not going through the CC machine).

Absent any information, I just assumed that any supermarket that can handle EBT/SNAP etc was sending transaction details anyway -- the computer will refuse or only partially pay the transaction if any items not elegible for benifits is on the order.

It's more expensive to know.

But this is a remote transaction - no matter the form of currency, an intermediary would be required.

If they have the account number. Ideally you would only need a bank account with any bank for this to work. That would allow anyone to receive payment this way.

Do you have an account with the ATM provider? I'm wondering how these payment providers are in compliance with KYC and KYT regulatuons.

TLDR: it is a feature, not a bug

Long version:

I don't think Georgia has copied what I think of as the mistake of KYC, yet at least.

I feel KYC regulations as they exist today are a big mistake, that does little good, more harm than good and causes a lot of extra work and annoyance.

People always seem to think that de-anonymizing things will always make things better.

As I get older I feel the more someone wants to know my real identify the more likely I am to be abused somehow.

Meanwhile, talking to thousands of absolute strangers here on HN or via an anonymous reddit account or something feels relatively safe.

I have also with time started to think that in the long run the risk from governments harming me or my family is a lot bigger than the risk that someone else does it.

Perhaps expand on this into a blog post and post it here on HN...?

Even if the ship has sailed on living in an identity-optional society, at least in most of the world, I still think it's good to record the benefits of such a society.

I can't do it from this account and I might not be the best writer to get the points through, but yes, someone should probably do it.

No - you don't give your identity to the ATM, or to the website. Which is lucky, because Georgia doesn't even have a good record of every citizen's name....

Well that's one of the points of a 'cash' transaction... Identity-optional.

At least in Thailand, no, you do not have an account with the ATM provider to use the cash deposit functionality. The closest thing to KYC is that most ATMs have a security camera.

KYC is not needed as cash is still a thing. It’s accepted that pretty much anonymous physical transactions can and will occur and the police will need to do old fashioned detective work to find the criminal.

on a similar note, you can buy airplane tickets online and then pay cash at any 7-11 before your flight.

Brazil has a similar system called “boleto”, you chose that option and the systems promts you a barcode you can use to pay with cash in ATMs, paharmacie and some other stores with no comission AFAIK.

It has some limits (10000 BRL when i used it) but thats more than enough for most purchases

Switzerland has (or had?) those red and blue slips that you could pay online or at a bank or perhaps an ATM. It made online payments virtually zero overhead, not sure if it was anonymous.

This is available in much of Asia actually. It is common to pay in "cash" in many Asian countries and this service is available through 7/Eleven.

Surprise, the ATM is bound to the same people that excommunicated Hatreon, Gab and whatever else. You did not give your cash to the website, you gave it to a bank.

I think you're missing the point of the example. It wasn't that websites can't function without cash payments, but that without cash you're held hostage to the whims of a few gatekeepers (like PH).

Mullvad have made it work, but it’s definitely not smooth. I believe their process is to assign a unique ID to your invoice, which you can then write on an envelope stuffed with cash you mail to the correct address. On receipt they match your cash with the invoice and mark it as paid.

This might work but sending cash in the mail is a pretty terrible idea. Most postal services strongly discourage it, or you're using recorded services which are expensive and add all the same tracking issues.

Which postal services? The USPS doesn't strongly discourage it.

They absolutely do and may refuse to mail it in some cases. It increases the risk of theft astronomically, that's why money orders exist.

Can you provide a source? I can provide two indicating they do not.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/can-you-send-cash-...

https://apnews.com/article/archive-fact-checking-9264421609

You should report to the postmaster general if you are refused service; they would be interested in hearing about this.

Postal services deny liability. If you send cash and it is stolen you can not sue or get redress from the postal system

You can insure up to $50k when sending cash through USPS.

They all say that but it works fine for smaller dollar amounts (say under $100).

Registered mail is insured up to $50,000

https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-are-the-Limits-for-Insur...

If you tell the USPS that you are sending cash, they will not accept it for delivery.

I found this out the hard way trying to overnight about $500 cash to a family member.

I think the point is about the monopolistic nature. Not that they would accept cash.

Without cash we will see credit fees rise significantly.

How did businesses manage payments before the Internet and credit cards etc?

checks and similar

Indirectly. Uber "accepts" cash in some countries, as do major online retailers in those same markets like Jumia. It's essentially cash on delivery, but it works AFAICT.

I've only used my card with Uber a handful of times in 2016.

Uber will happily take card in the app or cash to the driver here. Just select before calling the car.

I love using cash for Grab in Singapore, seeing as non-residents are capped on how much they can spend on a card weekly (and it is an extremely low amount).

No one is arguing for a cash-only society.

Digital has use cases.

Cash has use cases.

We can have both.

I don't think they were making that argument, more that websites don't usually take cash anyway.

(Can't imagine pornhub selling gift cards at the supermarket checkout next to the App store ones)

In North America, retail stores often sell prepaid Visa cards that can be used both offline and online.

NYC cashless ban law exception allows a fee-free machine to convert cash to prepaid digital payment mechanism, e.g. stored value card.

US Coinstar kiosks offer fee-free conversion of coins to Amazon and other gift cards.

Prepaid VISA doesn't get around the payment processor refusing to handle transactions for certain businesses though.

Maybe EFT (e-Check) or Zelle does? It's still on line and tracable but is not going through card processor networks.

Interesting. We could probably sell cards with crypto on it with immediate resolution by simply transferring the passphrase/wallet rather than on the chain.

Could do it with pure stablecoin.

A bitcoin bearer instrument. Like this https://opendime.com

Texas has proposed a gold-backed digital currency, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35866856

> The comptroller would also be required to create a mechanism that would allow the new gold-backed digital currency to be used by citizens for their daily transactions. “In establishing the digital currency the comptroller shall establish a means to ensure that a person who holds the digital currency may readily transfer or assign the digital currency to any other person by electronic means.”

What? There are people in this comment section doing exactly that.

For example?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36117704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36117435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36117805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36116663

Then there are the people defending the steps to the cashless society because those steps happened to be on people they didn't like: canadian truckers and pornhub.

I recall one explicit comment I can't find now so I am willing to believe I hallucinated it.

Those are people arguing for cash-less society.

> No one is arguing for a cash-only society.

My statement was about the opposite, i.e. co-existence rather than exclusion :)

My bad. I completely misread your comment. I am sorry for that.

Let me be the first to argue for it. Electronic money is horrible. It obscures how much you're really spending on things. It requires a middle man in every transaction skimming a bit off the top. One company runs all the debit payments here. Mastercard and Visa used to split the credit card market but I assume they colluded to monopolize on on MC here. The government has passed laws demanding business partake in the racket but nothing to require acceptance of cash. Cash not accepted for public transport. Laws stating a maximum value of a transaction that is permitted in cash but have never increased the limit while they've been inflating the value away.

It’s pretty hard, cash is like contraband in many cases

The idea elected politicians want a cashless society is utterly absurd to me.

It misses the obvious fact that an elected politician needs the privacy of cash for taking bribes.

A cashless society can only work in an authoritarian regime that simply doesn't care if the populace knows about bribes or not.

Billions of dirty money have passed through existing digital systems, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36119556

Future digital payment systems can have a wide range of transparency, they are unlikely to be limited to public blockchains.

China is rumored to have a do-not-see list which excludes selected elites from detection by ubiquitious surveillance cameras.

I don't know.

Cash is nearly impossible to use on the internet. The web is a window into what the physical world will look like without cash. Incidents like Pornhub's show us the power a few companies will wield over us when the transition to cashless happens.

It depends on the infrastructure. Some websites have "Cash on Delivery" options or going to a convenience store to pay.

When I was in Asia using UberEats and Food Panda, "Cash on Delivery" was the recommended option by most of the locals.

It has been happening for years. You go to 7-11 or Target and buy a “<app name> points card”, it gets activated at the register when you pay with cash, and then you use the code on the back to get Minecraft coins or Xbox points or Fortnite bux or whatever. It’s how kids and people with no credit or a distrust of banks participate online.

Money order physically sent to a mailing address. Slow, and a bit inconvenient, and there is no support for automatic recurring debits. But it does work, and it worked before the Internet.

When ebay was new I bought loads of stuff using postal orders, which aren't far from cash.

Hell, people would buy things from me and just post cash in an envelope.

cdnow.com or Amazon used to accept money orders. You'd place your order and they would give you a slip to print and send with your money order. Once the payment made it there, they would ship your item.

The website could hold it in escrow while they wait for your cash? It isn't hard actually, just a couple more steps. I mean not everyone needs 2 day Amazon shipping.

Here in Spain it is still relatively common to make a bank transfer and show the receipt. Especially for anything government related. Stand in queue, talk to person. You need to pay 12 euros. Go to bank, pay, get receipt. Go back and stand in the queue again.

We don't need to be giving our governments any more control over the way that we spend our own money. And we certainly don't want to give them the power to shut people out of the system.