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Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by enslavedrobot on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:33PM (#34875762)
This stuff is not competitive with electrochemical methods.

A big problem with these methods, besides abysmal efficiency is that the light that drives the photochemical processes has some probability of generating side reactions that destroy the artificial enzyme. Nature overcomes this with unbelievably complex protein repair structures that literally swap out defective proteins for new ones. We have zero chance of replicating this type of thing anytime soon.

Bio oil from algae is much closer to practical utility than this tech. And electrochemical CO2 reduction will be an even more scalable and practical solution in the near term in my opinion.

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by Choco31415 on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:50PM (#34875853)
> Nature overcomes this with unbelievably complex protein repair structures that literally swap out defective proteins for new ones.

Interesting. Mind if I get a link to read up more on the subject? c:

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by eats_indigo on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:29PM (#34876126)
Nick Lane covers this a little in the third chapter of his book Life Ascending: The Ten Great Inventions of Evolution. It might not be talking about the specific process OP was talking about but rather the Z Scheme of Photosynthesis
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by saulpw on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:09PM (#34875983)
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by jcims on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:52PM (#34876285)
Not directly related to photosynthesis, just the complexity of biology in general.

All of these original animations were done by Drew Berry, Veritasium just packaged a few of them in an easy to digest format

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_tYrnv_o6A

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by okoslaatoo on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:34PM (#34876637)
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by enslavedrobot on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:00PM (#34886223)
It's a very complex topic (especially if you aren't a chemist).

I can't find an accessible video on the topic, but you want to look up photosystem II repair. You need to search up D1 replacement in photosystem II.

To get a flavour of the nanomachine aspect of it all, check out this video on electron transport across membranes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmTKxI4Wn4).

Electron transport in proteins is crazy complex and actually amounts to molecular circuits where energy is guided to different spots inside proteins complexes in a unidirectional fashion. This guy is the grand daddy of the field (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7m9-PEiB8).

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by tooltower on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:39PM (#34876180)
When you say "electrochemical CO2 reduction", can you expand a bit more into what that method is?
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by namibj on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:17PM (#34876516)
Either a methane or carbon monoxide fuel cell run in reverse, or using hydrogen to water gas shift and then further reverse steam reforming into methane.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by colechristensen on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:21AM (#34878298)
When you add an initial water electrolysis to the sabatier process you can have

H2O + CO2 > O2 + CH4

That is water and carbon dioxide in, oxygen and methane out. Good for life support in space. If you had infinite free energy you can easily synthesize methane out of air and water.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by chii on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:52PM (#34876289)
> Nature overcomes this with unbelievably complex protein repair structures that literally swap out defective proteins for new ones.

it's almost as if nature evolved nano-machines that are far more complex than any we humans can envision today, even with our technology!

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by nvahalik on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:17PM (#34876515)
Or it's almost as if they were intelligently... designed...
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by tinco on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:24PM (#34876569)
By a watchmaker with terrible eyesight...
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by tomxor on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:48PM (#34876742)
Over billions of years... with trillions of failed watch "designs"...
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by fpoling on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:55AM (#34877642)
Was it a reference to “Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion” by David Hume? That book debunked the arguments by design 50 years before the watchmaker parabola was written:

“If we survey a ship, what an exalted idea must we form of the ingenuity of the carpenter who framed so complicated, useful, and beautiful a machine? And what surprise must we feel when we find him a stupid mechanic who imitated others, and copied an art which, through a long succession of ages, after multiplied trials, mistakes, corrections, deliberations, and controversies, had been gradually improving?“

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by wongarsu on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @08:16AM (#34880739)
Even God agrees that iterative design works better than the waterfall process
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by fpoling on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:53AM (#34877619)
It should be by a sculptor with a terrible eyesight! The sculptor analogy predates the watchmaker one by like 2200 years and for some reasons is much less known these days than watchmaker one.

From THE MEMORABILIA by By Xenophon, https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1177/1177-h/1177-h.htm

“Socrates. But now if you had two sorts of things, the one of which presents no clue as to what it is for, and the other is obviously for some useful purpose—which would you judge to be the result of chance, which of design? Ar. Clearly that which is produced for some useful end is the work of design. Soc. Does it not strike you then that he who made man from the beginning (5) did for some useful end furnish him with his several senses—giving him eyes to behold the visible word, and ears to catch the intonations of sound? Or again, what good would there be in odours if nostrils had not been bestowed upon us? what perception of sweet things and pungent, and of all the pleasures of the palate, had not a tongue been fashioned in us as an interpreter of the same? And besides all this, do you not think this looks like a matter of foresight, this closing of the delicate orbs of sight with eyelids as with folding doors, which, when there is need to use them for any purpose, can be thrown wide open and firmly closed again in sleep? and, that even the winds of heaven may not visit them too roughly, this planting of the eyelashes as a protecting screen? (6) this coping of the region above the eyes with cornice-work of eyebrow so that no drop of sweat fall from the head and injure them? again this readiness of the ear to catch all sounds and yet not to be surcharged? this capacity of the front teeth of all animals to cut and of the "grinders" to receive the food and reduce it to pulp? the position of the mouth again, close to the eyes and nostrils as a portal of ingress for all the creature's supplies? and lastly, seeing that matter passing out (7) of the body is unpleasant, this hindward direction of the passages, and their removal to a distance from the avenues of sense? I ask you, when you see all these things constructed with such show of foresight can you doubt whether they are products of chance or intelligence?”

Then in «Against Physicists” by Sextus Empiricus this was cited as:

“Tell me, Aristodemus, are there some people you have admired for their wisdom? Yes, there are, he said. Who are they, then? Well, I have admired Homer for his poetry, Polyclitus for his sculpture, and Zeuxis of course for his painting. [93] And is it not because of the exceptional craftsmanship of their works that you approve of them? Yes, it is, he said. If Polyclitus’ statue, then, also took on life, would you not approve of the artist much more? Definitely. Well, given that when you saw a statue you said that it had been crafted by some skilled person, when you see a human being whose soul’s activity and whose body’s design are good, do you not think that he was crafted by some exceptional mind?”

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by tinco on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:46AM (#34878050)
If you don't know why we prefer the analogy of the blind watchmaker over the idle chats of some ancient Greeks then maybe it would be good to give the good book another read.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by fpoling on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @05:13AM (#34879168)
It will be better if the modern debunking of the design arguments refered to Socrates as the originator of the arguments, not rewording of the same arguments by a random guy from 200 years ago. And even as a debunking original Hume's one from 250 years ago about stupid mechanic that I sighted in another thread was more to the point than the modern talk about a blind watchmaker.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by tinco on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @05:48AM (#34879450)
No, because Socrates was just a philosopher with no tools to justify his theories. And even is Humes' story is more elegant, it is also just a thought experiment. The blind watchmaker is a reference to an argument that is based in the knowledge of things that have been discovered, based purely in reality. The philosophers might come up with an argument that is sound, but they could not tell you if that argument is actually true.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by fpoling on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:23PM (#34885674)
Hume’s point was there was no intelligent design in things made by a skillful craftsman even with a good eyesight. It was not a thought experiment but simple observation of how things were made. It was all tinkering for a long time until something that worked appeared. That it is, it was not a design but evolution.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by ouid on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @11:30AM (#34883047)
evolution is not exactly intelligent. It's close, but doen't quite make it. It doesnt take an intelligence to guess at an intelligent solution if it doesnt require intelligence to test that solution. Intelligence, in such a problem domain, is basically a measure of how many wrong guesses occur between correct ones.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by MikeDelta on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:49AM (#34878068)
Today indeed, but let's see what we can do in the year 2525 (if human is still alive).
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by gcanyon on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:56AM (#34878562)
> in the year 2525 (if human is still alive)

Hello, fellow old!

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by malfist on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @11:00AM (#34882600)
Hey, I'm 33 and I love that song
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by stewarts on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:10PM (#34883628)
I played it for my 7 year old, it went into her requested song rotation for a good 6 months. Its just a classic!
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by gcanyon on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @02:53PM (#34901653)
I'm not saying it's not a good song, or only appeals to older people, just that the probability distribution for a person's age adjusts upward (a lot) given the prior of liking that song :-)
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by __d on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:20PM (#34889173)
Heh. I have it on original vinyl.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by gcanyon on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @02:52PM (#34901627)
Daaaaaamn!
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by wiz21c on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @04:52AM (#34879023)
Don't ask the question, just give the answer: we will be alive (I mean there's no other way, is it ?)
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by MikeDelta on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @05:51AM (#34879469)
Definitely, I have no doubts we will be alive.

I was hinting a bit to the lyrics of the song 'In the year 2525'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Year_2525

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by usrusr on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:39AM (#34879862)
Definitely no other way, because if woman cannot survive nobody will be around to painstakingly increment a counter each time the planet falls around its central star.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by hammock on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:04PM (#34876396)
>This stuff is not competitive with electrochemical methods.

Which is why we need tax credits for this

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by robocat on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:18PM (#34876520)
Tax credits is often another way of saying environmental pollution.

They are appropriate in the short term IF they cause sufficient innovation or economies of scale to kick in.

Often they cause more waste, because tax credits often benefit less efficient and more polluting solutions. Without a very deep and very careful analysis, your best proxy for measuring environmental harm is simply the amount spent.

For example: corn subsidies for ethanol production are significantly harmful for carbon dioxide pollution (via indirect effects like fertilizer production).

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by alwayslikethis on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:11PM (#34876457)
What? If we have money to spend on subsidizing stuff, we should subsidize the most efficient methods, which as parent implies, are the electrochemical methods.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by hammock on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:20AM (#34877006)
The most efficient way to create methane is actually to drill a well, isnt it?

I’m being downvoted for suggesting we incentivize something that will help us get off fossil fuels

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by adrianN on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:04AM (#34878167)
I think you're being downvoted because you suggest allocating a limited resource to a method that has better alternatives.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by hammock on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:55AM (#34880016)
So the tax credits should go to well drilling? And how is a tax credit a limited resource, when the US ran a deficit of over $1 trillion last year?
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by adrianN on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @02:40AM (#34892803)
No, the tax credits should go to more efficient measures for atmospheric carbon capture. Tax credits are a limited resource because money's only use is to buy limited resources. If you increase the money supply to infinity, money loses its meaning.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by colechristensen on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:23AM (#34878312)
No you’re being downvoted because you’re suggesting the worse methane synthesis method should get subsidized when a better alternative exists.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by petesergeant on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:17AM (#34876979)
> besides abysmal efficiency

How much does abysmal efficiency matter when there are places in the world with virtually unlimited sunlight? Serious question.

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by sudhirj on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:41AM (#34877162)
Good point. I've had discussions with friends about things like the Einstein-Slizard refrigeration and efficiency keeps coming up, and it's always a struggle to point out that we're trying to do things in an environment where there's tons of tropical and equatorial sunlight, and little or no access to electricity. Efficiency is not the primary factor when the energy source is free and unlimited.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by regularfry on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:58AM (#34881883)
Free yes, but not unlimited. It's not very dense, so you get area-limited depressingly quickly. That might not be a problem, depending on how much power you need.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by smolder on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:40AM (#34877155)
That depends on how abysmal. It may be more effective to just build solar and wind farms to replace the power generated from existing natural gas.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by djmips on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:47AM (#34877580)
The figure that stands out for me is according to this one fossil fuel animation on YouTube they calculate we are using 100 times the amount of carbon that exists in all living creatures on the face of the earth every year.

That's food for thought... Even if we used all the forests and all the sea life we still wouldn't have enough energy. So we really need to be eat more efficient than natural systems.

https://youtu.be/SD9yVca6hHI

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by MagnumOpus on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @05:34AM (#34879330)
> they calculate we are using 100 times the amount of carbon that exists in all living creatures on the face of the earth every year

This doesn't seem right. Estimates put total biomass at 500-600 billion tons of carbon, and annual biomass production at 100 billion tons of carbon. Meanwhile global carbon emissions from fossil fuels/industry are 35-40 billion tons per year.

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by colechristensen on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:13AM (#34878234)
There’s initial capital and maintenance, if a thing isn’t space or energy efficient it might be more expensive than existing methods.
Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by schiffern on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:03PM (#34885382)
>How much does abysmal efficiency matter...? Serious question.

Serious answer: Supplying sunlight isn't what's driving cost here.

The problem is that inefficient systems need to be large, and enlarging systems (even 'simple' ponds, etc) makes them more expensive.

Re:'artificial photosynthesis' claimed 10x more efficient by elif on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:12AM (#34882042)
"We have zero chance of replicating this type of thing anytime soon."

gardeners replicate this type of thing daily.

my hunch is that the next big breakthrough will be when they can implement this machinery in a seed.