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Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:17PM (#34192234)
The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips.

There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more), consumers hate it because the menu prices increase, and you end up with McD's level customer service where drinks are never refilled, and service overall degrades.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by tbalsam on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:27PM (#34192350)
I've heard these as talking points, often in a political context, but the opposite has been true in my experience. The places that have removed tips seem to be much happier on the whole.

I think as well something that would be concerning regarding the quality of service of the places that you're talking about that the quality of service depends upon how much money is being given, and less things that oftentimes help people perform on the job better (non-toxic environment, healthy egoless leadership, good colleagues, good company ethos and ethics, etc).

Obviously pay is important, it's a job after all, but people can't magic the willpower to perform well for money out of nowhere. I think that's up to the company to protect and foster that kind of a productive workplace where people can achieve their potential.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by woodruffw on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:21PM (#34192286)
> The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips.

One sensible metric is that you should be able to support yourself while living in the area you work (or an area nearby such that it isn't a significant financial hardship or timesink to commute to work). Service jobs largely fail on that metric, effectively using government money and family support structures to cover the gap.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:33PM (#34192416)
I am not sure how that is a "sensible metric", how would you even begin to create a wage around that? What is "supporting yourself" even mean? Does a teenager need to make the same wage as a mother of 3? if there are 2 20yo waitstaff one is a single mother living alone, and the other is guy living in his parents basement should one be paid differently due to their life situation?

This is problem with basing wages on an individual needs, in reality the wage you are paid should have, and does have nothing to do with the amount of money you "need" to support yourself.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by standardUser on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:56PM (#34192614)
The concept of a living wage is not new and it is calculated and used by many governments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:06PM (#34192688)
the problem here is none of that is actually connected to what a person needs. "Living Wage" Laws are just a different way to implement minimum wages, none of the laws shown on that page are connected to any kind of structure or process by which things needed to "live" like food, housing etc are tabulated where by a wage is set.

it is just a arbitrary wage picked by legislatures exactly like a "minimum wage" law only the "living wage" seems to apply to older people, where "minimum wage" laws apply to everyone. For example a 20yo in the UK can make "minimum wage" but a 24yo will need to make "living wage" both of which are just numbers pulled out of thin air, not connected to "the amount of money you need to support yourself. "

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by tomalpha on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:35PM (#34192905)
> both of which are just numbers pulled out of thin air

The living wage is not in the UK. Dispute the method all you want of course, but there is a method:

https://www.livingwage.org.uk/calculation

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by standardUser on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:14PM (#34192752)
The numbers are in fact calculated, not pulled out of thin air. You seem to be cynically assuming they are not with no proof and no interest in proof one way or the other.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by ceejayoz on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:07PM (#34192695)
All of those examples should be able to afford the basics off their wage. An apartment that isn’t three hours from work or requiring hot beds, transportation, food, healthcare, etc.

Yes, it gets complicated, but “$7.25/hr isn’t enough” is not complicated.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:16PM (#34192763)
Amazing the market already figured that out. I would love to know what jobs out there are paying $7.25

Not everything needs a government mandate. Every drive thru, and service job I see is has $13, $15, $16 per hour wages, and this is in the midwest where the median income is hovering around 50-55K

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by CamperBob2 on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:24PM (#34192328)
So, nice areas shouldn't have restaurants? Paying waiters and busboys enough money to live in downtown SF while their counterparts in the suburbs are paid what they're getting now will distort the labor market in ways that break the whole thing.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by Spooky23 on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:37PM (#34192451)
That’s a distortion that is what the property owners in California want. Y’all get your million dollar studio apartments with $1000 property taxes and tent cities on the curb outside.

San Francisco can be a playground for the rich until they get sick of paying for $30 lattes or whatever and flee to low cost locales like Manhattan that have affordable housing and transit.

It won’t be “fixed” until we’re backed into an economic corner where it becomes politically acceptable for the property owners to lose bazillions of dollars.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by woodruffw on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:27PM (#34192347)
> So, nice areas shouldn't have restaurants?

I don't know how you got to that, other than by assuming that nice areas have to be expensive. The fact that SF is unable to achieve both is an indicator of broken local markets and politics, not an ironclad rule for every other locality.

Edit: Another framing is that "nice" and "fancy" are different things, as much as extremely unequal markets like SF distort the distinction.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by jen20 on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:44PM (#34192521)
> other than by assuming that nice areas have to be expensive

This is generally the case. I can’t think of a single counter example.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by woodruffw on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:58PM (#34192628)
What's your qualification for "nice"? For me, it's decent public infrastructure, convenient access to both basic goods (groceries) and "light" luxuries (restaurants, bars), and a broad lack of concern that I'm going to be victimized by a crime.

Most of the US satisfies these constraints, especially if you own and don't mind driving a car.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by kova12 on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:45PM (#34192530)
In many places low wage workers commute into HCOL areas. Being able to live in Manhattan on waiter's earnings is wishful thinking. Waiters are dime a dozen, and it's ridiculous to suggest they could possibly be making enough to live with mega high earners
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by woodruffw on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:48PM (#34192545)
Read the statement more closely: you can either tackle this problem by raising wages, or by reducing the financial and logistical burden of commuting (or both!). Manhattan isn't a good example for your case: millions of people (like myself) commute cheaply and easily into the borough each day to work.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by standardUser on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:58PM (#34192626)
> Being able to live in Manhattan on waiter's earnings is wishful thinking.

That's factually untrue and kind of an absurd statement. Of course people live in Manhattan working as servers.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by kova12 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:53AM (#34194004)
Solely on the salary of a server?
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by standardUser on Saturday December 31, 2022 @11:01AM (#34197599)
A server can make $100-$500 per shift in tips, 4-5 shifts per week. On the low end, that's probably not enough even for a roommate situation. But in the medium-to-high end, that can easily cover a studio apartment.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by troupe on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:47PM (#34192541)
Support yourself living in a large house with a nice car and a family? Or support yourself as a single person living in a 2 bedroom apartment with 3 other roommates? Or support yourself with enough money to have some spending cash as you work your way through high-school and live with your parents?

The idea that a job shouldn't exist if it is only something that would interest a high-school student or uneducated young adult who is willing to live with lots of roommates creates fewer opportunities at the low end--not more.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by stemlord on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:36PM (#34192448)
>There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models,

You mean like most restaurants in europe? Yes the service there is on average worse than in American restaurants because of tips, but in my opinion not by enough of a margin to cost me 20% every time. The times that you would tip at a eu restaurant, its something reasonable well below the ridiculous 20% average that American businesses have swindled into existence

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:42PM (#34192497)
Europe has a completely different cultural model. One of the most important services the waitstaff provides (for me anyway) is ensuring my beverages are refilled. This concept does not exist really where as they pay for every refill. This also changes the business dynamics as the Restaurant wants the waitstaff to "always be selling" to increase ticket revenue.

The US has a less hard sell model and free refills. That changes alot of the dynamics

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by anigbrowl on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:13PM (#34192739)
This is only true for people who don't drink alcohol with their meal.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:22PM (#34192810)
Given I stopped drinking over 20 years ago it is true for me.

Also if you are drinking alcohol (and only Alcohol) with EVERY meal, well you may have a problem

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by anigbrowl on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:51PM (#34210104)
Most people don't have every meal in a restaurant.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by ikr678 on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:48PM (#34192550)
The definition of 'good' and 'bad' table service is also very cultural. I am from a non-tipping country and I find American style table waiting very overbearing, bottomless refills are not a thing here (except table water). I dont want to make small talk with the waiter, I'm there to eat with my party.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by stemlord on Friday December 30, 2022 @11:38PM (#34193626)
Yeah the only way waiting is better when staff is incentivised by tips is checking-in/getting their attention (for a refill or whatever)
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by jmugan on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:20PM (#34192266)
I don't know, I've had pretty bad service recently at places where you tip. I still top 20% out of guilt, but it might be that service in general is poorer now.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:35PM (#34192440)
>>I still top 20% out of guilt

hmmmm

>>but it might be that service in general is poorer now.

I wonder why that might be? You have allowed emotion to screw the system. the entire purpose off a tip is pay for the service. no serivce no tip. People work of incentives, if they know they will get 20% no matter what why would or should they give you good service?

you set the expectation, and now complain that people have given you exactly what you expected of them

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by gearsandbeers on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:25PM (#34192335)
When did tipping 20% become standard in the US? I was talking to a colleague about this recently and they mentioned it but I could’ve sworn it used to be 15%
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by jcranmer on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:41PM (#34192489)
I want to say around-ish a decade ago? It definitely used to be 15% when I was growing up.

Although based on some recent news articles I found when I tried searching for a more definitive source, tip amounts have gone down in the past year or so.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by mattnewton on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:32PM (#34192402)
I don’t think it is just you- ten years ago I remember distinctly working somewhere where the brand new POS tip screens used to have 10, 15 and 20 percent tip buttons; now I frequently see 15 20 25 or 20 25 30 as defaults on those screens.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by rx_bandit on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:34PM (#34192430)
It's true! I remember before we use to just double the tax and that was the tip. (When it used to be 7.25% in California) Nowadays we're taking a second and thinking before eating out.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by jghn on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:43PM (#34192512)
In more cosmopolitan areas it's been normal for a while now. I remember 18 & even 20% being discussed over 10 years ago. And these days starting to see 25% pop up in conversations.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by barbariangrunge on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:46PM (#34192535)
It actually used to be 10%. It’s crept upwards for years
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by gearsandbeers on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:01PM (#34192651)
I do wonder why it’s creeping upward though given it’s proportional and would increase as prices increase - perhaps it’s a symptom of employers paying even less after controlling for inflation etc. when comparing then vs now
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by dpkirchner on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:13PM (#34192743)
The minimum wage (roughly what tipped workers earn) has been falling for decades, so I think at least some of the upward creep can be attributed to the knowledge that the workers are getting screwed, hard.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by lotsofpulp on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:11PM (#34192722)
I assume it is at least partly a status symbol thing when going out as a group to eat, especially amongst young people.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by anigbrowl on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:15PM (#34192755)
During the pandemic. 15% used to be the norm, then people (including me) started paying a bit more to help out restaurant workers who were dealing with a sudden precipitous drop in business. I'm about over it though.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by insane_dreamer on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:53PM (#34192583)
Strong disagree. You can still tip at restaurants where the service is already added to the bill automatically (so you go in knowing the meal will cost 20% more than what the listed prices are, just like you know that when something says $199 it's actually $210 once you add sales tax). You can always also tip in appreciation for the service (so high performers can get more) but you're not feeling like you're forced to tip just to bring workers' wages up to the minimum level.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:30PM (#34192866)
>>you can still tip at restaurants where the service is already added to the bill automatically (so you go in knowing the meal will cost 20% more than what the listed prices are

They better just raise the menu price, any place that has a 20% service charge added automatically (outside the standard large party ) will never get my patronage again

>> once you add sales tax

that is nothing like Sales Tax. Sales tax is a fee the government is charging ME that the business is mandated by the government to collect on my behalf, I owe the tax not the business. People often do not understand that context. Just like when your employer taxes out of your paycheck, you owe the income tax but the employer is mandated to collect it because the government do not trust you with your own money.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by lp4vn on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:55PM (#34192596)
The tipping the way it's done in America only exists in America, in the rest of the world it's not like that and consumers and staff are ok with that. Also your idea that tip creates a micro free market where highly effective staff makes a lot of money and poor performers are penalized is politically motivated, someone had to tell you this.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by bluedino on Friday December 30, 2022 @08:56PM (#34192599)
> There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more)

Similar to the argument against unions.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by dboreham on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:02PM (#34192664)
There are whole countries that don't have tipping yet somehow seem to manage to serve food.
Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by anigbrowl on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:11PM (#34192723)
consumers hate it because the menu prices increase, and you end up with McD's level customer service where drinks are never refilled, and service overall degrades

I have one such restaurant near me and I neither hate it nor experience bad service. It's been like this a few years and they're doing fine.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by bamboozled on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:12PM (#34192731)
I hate tipping and the idea of it and now it’s automated with all these payment apps, ie it suggests a figure, is even more stupid. Like the worst service ever and they suggest you pay 15%” so you feel obliged because the poor kid gets paid nothing anyway.

I’ve travelled all over the world and I don’t find the service in America to be that much better honestly.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by phpisthebest on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:24PM (#34192827)
>>so you feel obliged

I have no problems looking them in the eye and pressing 0% -- No Tip.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by caconym_ on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:16PM (#34192770)
> There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it.

Citation needed. My experiences at no-tipping restaurants have been the absolute opposite of your claims: great food, great service, and no fucking around with tipping afterwards.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by askvictor on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:25PM (#34192829)
Australia doesn't have a tipping culture (though it's slowly creeping in). Customer service is usually pretty good. Sometimes great (in which case I usually do leave a tip). If the service is really bad, then you can always tell the management; they're usually pretty obliging.

If I'm at a restaurant, I really don't want to have much interaction with most of the staff; I'm there to talk to my dining party and to eat and drink. _Really_ good wait staff know this and are attentive (e.g. to your drinks, or can notice when you need them), personable when they're there, but otherwise you don't notice them. I think tipping culture discourages this, as being invisible isn't an obvious way to get a tip.

Re:SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Co... by fipar on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:32PM (#34192883)
> First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more)

I just wanted to share the fact that there are places where tips are shared by the whole staff, and that system works well (I can't say if it works worse or better than the one you're describing as I don't have much experience with it). It also has the advantage that non-public-facing staff (e.g., cooks) get their share of tips too.