News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by zitsarethecure on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:09AM (#32970956)
Once a year I select about 100 of my favourite pictures from my phone and have them printed and bound to a book. I suspect this is likely to be the only way my descendants will be able to see them.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by londons_explore on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:01AM (#32971408)
> printed and bound to a book. I suspect this is likely to be the only way my descendants will be able to see them.

My experience is that when someone dies, all their paperwork gets left in a drawer for years until the next house move and then it's all thrown out.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by flakeoil on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:06AM (#32972030)
But at least people will notice the photo book and at least have one look through. And it might even be a great moment when family members together can look at it and discuss memories. And quite likely it will be kept by a descendant. And it can be found one day by their descendants.

The digital archive or cloud storage will likely in many cases not even be discovered. And if it is discovered, it will probably be such a load of images, good and bad, that no-one will have the time to really look it through and appreciate it.

But for sure, both options combined is probably best.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by debaserab2 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:48PM (#32973913)
My gmail account has a deadman’s switch to grant full access to my next of kin.

If I had a gigabytes of photos of my grandparents or great grandparents I would spend hours pouring over them looking at what their life was like before I knew them. That would be such a neat keepsake.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by hezralig on Sunday September 25, 2022 @03:08PM (#32974861)
I hate to tell you this but many people have been locked out of their Google Accounts despite knowing the correct username/password combination. Their security policies and ML algo locks accounts and requires 2FA to be used from time to time. How confident are you that in your passing, your next of kin will be able to get into that account if 2FA or backup codes are inaccessible?

Given their is no real customer service team that handles their free tier accounts, I am personally reluctant to assume my Gdrive data will be salvageable.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by debaserab2 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @03:39PM (#32975183)
According to the Google Inactive Account support page, they aren't actually assuming the account, they're just getting access to the data. So, presumably, they'd just download the data and that would be it.

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3036546?hl=en

(That's not to say there aren't other concerning reasons why that data may not be accessible.)

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by hezralig on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:31AM (#32992459)
That is lovely to know about. I was only aware of the dead mans switch feature which deletes data after a period of time.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by vineyardmike on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:42PM (#32974530)
I imagine someone may one day do the same for me, but sadly most of my photos are clogged with mundane screenshots and repeint pictures and other junk.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by brokenmachine on Sunday September 25, 2022 @07:21PM (#32977497)
>gmail account has a deadman’s switch

How do you do this?

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by mrec on Sunday September 25, 2022 @08:14PM (#32977890)
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by dazzawazza on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:12AM (#32972079)
Don't worry, the images will be used to train an AI which will feed derivations of them into a replicant to keep them sane.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by reaperducer on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:20AM (#32972170)
My experience is that when someone dies, all their paperwork gets left in a drawer for years until the next house move and then it's all thrown out.

My experience has been the opposite, with relatives eagerly snatching up the old photographs.

My boss is young and one of those people for whom digital is the only way. Then one day she got a box of old photographs and was absolutely amazed that she could turn them over and read where they were taken, on what occasion, and who was in the photos.

She now prints out all of her photos and writes notes on the back of them and keeps them in a box, just like people have done for the last century.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by jvm___ on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:23PM (#32972917)
I was on the subway in Toronto in 2017, two college age girls had an inch thick stack of 4x6's that they were going through. It was a strange throwback to the pre-digital era.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by josefx on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:08AM (#32971487)
My family has/had a handful of generations worth of records. The problem is finding out who last had what. Some of it has been backed up digitally, but finding a thumb drive is a lot harder than spotting a man sized pile of boxes.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by unity1001 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:21PM (#32978308)
Nope. It will be passed to the children. But likely not the grandchildren. Even if they do, the knowledge behind the pictures will be lost and grandchildren wont know who's who in most of the pictures. (grand uncles aunts etc). And grand-grandchildren may not even know grand-grandfathers anymore...
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by rasz on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:45PM (#32973154)
Sometimes a good friend will dig into the garbage and rescue them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwu1427MUIE
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by renewiltord on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:40PM (#32973095)
The point is for someone to discover them years later and post them on Reddit.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by hef19898 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:16AM (#32971010)
That's why I, and every other enthusiast photographer I know, keep my archive locally, meaning on my laptops hardrive and an external one as backup. You cannot trust any cloud provider to properly maintain your data, and external storage is becoming cheaper every year.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by newZWhoDis on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:29AM (#32971136)
> You cannot trust any cloud provider to properly maintain your data, and external storage is becoming cheaper every year.

Exactly, and setting up a NAS has never been easier.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by reaperducer on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:22AM (#32972200)
For 99% of people, a NAS is overkill. Plug-and-play USB drives get the job done at a fraction of the complexity.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by newZWhoDis on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:09PM (#32972751)
I love having a NAS that replaces Time Machine, Dropbox, iCloud, Netflix, Spotify, Disney plus, Hulu, runs home automation, has my security system on it, etc etc.

People use so many cloud services and having it all private and self-hosted is absolutely amazing. It’s really not that hard to set up either, and there’s little to maintenance outside replacing a failed drive.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by criddell on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:16PM (#32973528)
People here likely know how to do all that safely, but lots of less technically inclined people end up with their data encrypted and have to choose between starting over or paying a ransom. I have a QNAP device so I follow their subreddit and there's a steady stream of people who have lost everything to ransomware because their NAS was visible from the internet. I follow the standard advice from that subreddit - keep it behind a firewall with UPnP turned off and no ports forwarded to the NAS and never enable MyQNAPCloud (or whatever it's called).
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by newZWhoDis on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:30PM (#32973708)
Seems like more of a QNAP problem than anything
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by fomine3 on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:59AM (#32980265)
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by sockaddr on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:35PM (#32975896)
Yup. QNAP software quality (and hardware) is complete garbage. I’ve off and on tried to incorporate them into my “system” and they always let me down. You’re putting everything at risk using one of their boxes.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by type-r on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:10PM (#32973457)
I vastly prefer content be cloud based. Ever since Spotify came out, I've never downloaded music illegally again -- it's just so much better and more convenient. Can't imagine going back to what.cd days and having to download and maintain a music collection manually.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by newZWhoDis on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:32PM (#32973736)
Sure, but then Netflix removed stargate on a whim and one of my favorite shows went poof.

That started me down the path to owning all my own media.

It also didn’t help that iCloud Photos is a privacy nightmare.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by haidev on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:31PM (#32974419)
Mind sharing your setup, I’d love to replicate it. Thanks
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by newZWhoDis on Monday September 26, 2022 @11:35PM (#32991307)
8 bay synology with 60TB usable, multiple docker containers running for tools as part of my setup.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by pronoiac on Sunday September 25, 2022 @03:43PM (#32975241)
One benefit of a NAS: my data's robust against any single drive dying, which is something that's happened to me, friends, and family.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by nobodyandproud on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:50PM (#32973213)
A toaster box NAS with hotswap drives, RAID, and support for Android and iOS is a reality.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by iLoveOncall on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:14AM (#32971538)
> You cannot trust any cloud provider to properly maintain your data

I trust any cloud provider a lot more than my lazy self.

> and external storage is becoming cheaper every year

Sure, but electricity isn't. At the current price in the UK it seems like running a small NAS would be 10 GBP per month, more than most online storage solutions.

That is without counting the initial investment of buying the NAS, the cost of maintaining it (if I have to spend an hour a month on maintenance, that's $1000+ a year of time wasted), the footprint of the NAS, the noise, the heat, etc.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by pixl97 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:19AM (#32971589)
Why not both.

A backup in one place isn't a backup. The 3, 2, 1 rule and all.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by iLoveOncall on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:23AM (#32971616)
Of course, but then my solution will be an external drive, not a NAS.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by ghaff on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:49AM (#32972493)
Yeah. I have a NAS for other purposes but redundant external USB drives is the easiest solution. You can even periodically make a clone and store it somewhere else.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by ocdtrekkie on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:25AM (#32971628)
It sounds like you know... very little on the topic. My NAS requires no maintenance, it makes no sound while running, and costs maybe pennies to run.

Meanwhile, there hasn't been a cloud provider without massive reliability or data loss issues. My NAS has better uptime than Amazon, Microsoft, or Google.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by iLoveOncall on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:54AM (#32971901)
> My NAS requires no maintenance

So you took it out of the shipping box, plugged it to power, and pressed the power button, and everything was up and running?

And since then you haven't had to update any software on it, reboot it, unplug and replug an ethernet cable, shut it down and opened it to add storage, etc.?

> it makes no sound while running

Looking at a basic NAS on Synology shows that it's around 20 dB, which is admittedly very little, but is not 0.

> and costs maybe pennies to run

Again, looking at the same NAS and using my actual price per kWH, it's around $10 a month.

> there hasn't been a cloud provider without massive reliability or data loss issues

My searches haven't turned up any article about a data loss from any of the 3 big cloud providers. Even the story here, while scary, is just about compressed files, not originals.

---

I'm not denying that a NAS has advantages (the fact that it's a lot more than just a data backup), but in the context of backing up files, it's not at all convenient compared to using online solutions.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by tagawa on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:51PM (#32973231)
It’s not big three but Canon announced cloud image/video loss a couple of years ago: https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-updates-on-the-status-of-i...
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by SECProto on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:53AM (#32971894)
Their estimate of £10/month seems reasonable to me – that's basically 1 or 2 kWh of electricity per day (can't find current UK electricity rates). Is your NAS under 40W power draw?

> costs maybe pennies to run.

Pennies per hour, per day, or per month?

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by tpxl on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:50PM (#32974640)
My RPi 4b runs on a 18W power supply, which would put it at 432Wh per day if running at max load (It doesn't, it idles at <3W most of the time). Any arm NAS is going to have a similar power draw, and you really should pay attention to the power draw when choosing a NAS.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by SECProto on Sunday September 25, 2022 @07:22PM (#32977503)
What about the storage devices (the S in NAS)? My external HDD (just for reference) has an AC adaptor that outputs 12V at 1.5A, so that's another 18W. And most people who care enough about storage to have a NAS have multiple disks...

I'm not saying it isn't under 40W - as you note, if it's idling properly, it's pretty easy to have a NAS including disks under 10W idle. But the electricity cost is not negligible when you are running something 24/7. Even 10W24hr30day is 7.2kWh per month, and most places cant count on 8c/kWh electricity anymore.

> My RPi 4b runs on a 18W power supply, which would put it at 432Wh per day

Which would be 13 kWh per month. If we're comparing to monthly fees for cloud storage, it's important to look at the same time frame.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by tpxl on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:05AM (#32981225)
> What about the storage devices (the S in NAS)?

I have two SSDs on it that are powered by the RPi itself, so the whole package is < 18W. Also, SSDs use way less power than HDDs.

> Which would be 13 kWh per month. If we're comparing to monthly fees for cloud storage, it's important to look at the same time frame.

Yes, running at max load. A more realistic load will be 3W/hr -> 72W/day -> 2kWh/month. That would put it at ~0.3€/month at a realistic load and ~1€/month at max load (0.15€/kWh where I live).

You also have to take into account there's other stuff running on such "NASes", like the PiHole, a git server, a plex server, which are going to cost you separately if you need them. On the other hand, my setup cost me ~300€ (RPi, charger, drives, USB-SATA adapters), which buys a whole lot of VPS and a whole lot of online storage.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by SECProto on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:50PM (#32990130)
Yes, SSDs would certainly help cut your power load down significantly! My system has 3 HDDs and it's a fairly small NAS compared to many - SSDs are prohibitively expensive once your storage needs get above a couple TBs.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by madiator on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:30AM (#32971147)
What will you do if there is a fire and you lose your laptop and the external hard disk?
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by brycewray on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:14AM (#32971534)
That’s why to use the 3-2-1 method[0].

[0]: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/the-3-2-1-backup-strategy/

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by hef19898 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:32AM (#32971160)
Law of propability: I had zero dataloses due to fire, some data loss due to loosing a thumb drive backup and some data losses due to cloud storage shennenigans.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by madiator on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:18AM (#32971579)
Hmm. I highly recommend a three way redundancy as others have mentioned. Put a copy in the cloud or store your harddisks somewhere else.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by hef19898 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @05:07PM (#32976243)
You are right, a cloud storage would make things a tad saver. Personally, I made a point in not putting anything in the cloud, especially none of the big providers, since I value my privacy and just don't trust any o those companies.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by capableweb on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:33AM (#32971163)
Create a new backup from the cloud provider one. Vice-versa if the cloud provider backup gets lost. Chances of loosing both at the same are minuscule.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by retrac on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:49PM (#32973199)
For the really important digital stuff (almost 30 years of family digital photography and video and some paperwork) I have a rotating backup schedule. Two of the drives in the rotation stay at my mother's place. Nothing fancy and it's mostly when I can bother to remember. About once a year or so. Still, some peace of mind.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Pxtl on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:55AM (#32971365)
I do both, personally. Have everything on my HD and on the Google cloud. That seems like an appropriate level of redundancy.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by iforgotpassword on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:49AM (#32971303)
A photo book doesn't sound much better for that either.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by shaky-carrousel on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:00AM (#32971403)
Have a backup somewhere else, of course.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by flatiron on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:45PM (#32973150)
As an enthusiast photographer with a lot of inner circle friends: we encrypt and backup to cloud. 0 degradation.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by dv35z on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:12PM (#32975570)
Can you share some specifics on the setup? Trying to do something similar. Haven’t tried it yet, but MacOS can create encrypted “sparse images”, which can be mounted and contain files. I’d like find to a better way, especially something that could stand the test of some time (10 years seems reasonable).
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by flatiron on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @07:31AM (#32993960)
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by emkoemko on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:01PM (#32975436)
what happens when your house floods, burns down etc? you need to keep another backup off site somewhere, i keep it at my parents house just in case.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Finnucane on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:48PM (#32974622)
Now imagine you are old like me and got your first camera in 1972, and still have all the film.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by tlavoie on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:45PM (#32979169)
There are services that will take your film, and get you a pile of images back. I did that some years ago, as my folks had hundreds of slides.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by noneeeed on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:59PM (#32974757)
My wife does a photo book every year, combining the best of both our photos. It’s a bit of a chore, but I’m so glad she does it, they are so much nicer to browse through. The kids love looking at them all from time to time.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Forge36 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:12AM (#32970977)
I've started picking my favorites and printing on metal/canvas.

My home backup is going to be it's own problem after my death.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by ilaksh on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:54AM (#32971356)
After a few hundred years, most of your descendants may live in a computer.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by bavell on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:06AM (#32971465)
Even after a few millennia, I doubt it. The human experience is inseparable from the human body.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Sharlin on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:14AM (#32971537)
That’s a pretty bold statement. The null hypothesis is that there’s nothing in the body that cannot in principle be emulated in silico to whatever precision necessary.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by jodrellblank on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:05PM (#32975484)
Why is that the null hypothesis? For one thing, the only experience we have is existing as bodies in a real world, so that should be the default with any other claims being supported by evidence. For another thing, simulating a bridge falling down is not a bridge falling down, and it's not proven that simulated thinking is thinking (or even, possible).
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by KronisLV on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:57PM (#32973302)
> The human experience is inseparable from the human body.

I'd say that the human body is just one very sophisticated I/O device.

The fact that we can't replicate it now doesn't mean that it wouldn't be possible after a millenia of engineering, even though this replacement device might as well be a partially organic one in the end.

That said, there are no guarantees that we don't fall into a sort of "dark age" of no more growth/research into any new directions, or don't wipe ourselves out altogether.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by implements on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:38AM (#32971740)
Sad news for people hoping for a life after death, though! (ie nearly everyone)

I think it’ll be possible to create inorganic ‘brains’ that have human-like subjective experience, because to think otherwise reduces to some form of vitalism, but I doubt we’ll be able to move specific individual consciousness across technologies.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Semaphor on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:50PM (#32973215)
> (ie nearly everyone)

Are you sure about that? That does not sound right to me.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by implements on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:12PM (#32973479)
Well, I’m assuming the majority of people currently alive (and even more of those who have ever lived) are religious, and the majority of religions followed hold with the Heaven & Hell / Cycle of Reincarnation until Enlightenment model - and that experience in the afterlife was still recognisably ’human’.

Though, saying that, OP’s point about needing a human body to have human experiences may be correct if souls get a new human body in the afterlife - I’d just assumed liberated souls, like ghosts, had no physical form.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Semaphor on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:50PM (#32974638)
There’s a vast 49% gulf between nearly everyone and the majority.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Traubenfuchs on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:00PM (#32972632)
What makes you say that? You could literally be a brain in a jar or be hooked up to god knows what "deep diving" / "full VR" experience humanity will come up with.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by Shorel on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:53PM (#32973256)
After a few hundred thousand years, sure.

Nowadays it's only available inside the world of Black Mirror and similar fiction.

Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by LightG on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:27PM (#32974374)
They're going to be p!ssed at degradation issues like this one.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by TigeriusKirk on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:35AM (#32972339)
I'd like to do this myself. What service do you use for it?
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by djbusby on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:44AM (#32972443)
rsync.net is my off-site/cloud of choice. And they keep your bits on ZFS.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by ThrowawayTestr on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:47PM (#32973174)
Check your local independent print shop. They're not expensive.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:49AM (#32971309)
I like that. Convenience of phone camera + curation, quality, and resiliency of physical media.
Re:Users reporting artifacts appearing in old images stored ... by ipaddr on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:00PM (#32972631)
What service do you use?