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Re:The layoffs at Klarna by Areading314 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:48PM (#32460714)
Klarna generated $1.42 billion revenue in 2021, a 32 percent year-on-year increase. A majority of Klarna’s income comes from interchange, processing and merchant fees.

As Klarna has expanded its BNPL offering, its losses have increased. It reported a net loss of $730 million in 2021, a 337 percent increase on its 2020 loss.

I would say its surprising that this company is still in business at all with numbers like this.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hotpotamus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:58PM (#32460804)
I recently left an 8,000 person company that's been on a 2 decade loop of private money to publicly traded and back a couple times now. It occurred to me that in 25ish years (about 10 of which I worked there) that it might never have made any money - I can't remember a profitable year ever; we were always seeking growth above all else. I now work at a small SaaS company of around 50 people and it's only ever made money.

Every day I feel like I live the Homer Simpson quote, "I don't know how the economy works".

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by allenu on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:20PM (#32461019)
> I recently left an 8,000 person company that's been on a 2 decade loop of private money to publicly traded and back a couple times now. It occurred to me that in 25ish years (about 10 of which I worked there) that it might never have made any money

That is crazy if true. My fear is that there are a ton of tech companies like that, just chasing future profits or an acquisition, but not actually creating anything of value (at least in terms of profit).

I don't know. It just doesn't sit well with me knowing that a lot of products we build don't actually make any money. We're all just part of some weird system of money re-allocation and the software is just there as a signal that money should change hands.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hotpotamus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:36PM (#32461167)
I actually worked providing infrastructure to tech companies; from large enterprises to startups. I think I realized starting in the early to mid 10's that all the startups I was working with were just about taking VC money to provide the founders with hip, well paying jobs - the stated goal of the company was mostly immaterial and the "change the world" talk was virtue signaling to the rank and file so they don't feel so bad about their place in it. I wasn't all that thrilled but I've got to eat too and I'm not built for retail or labor, so what was I going to do?

Might be worth noting that I tend towards the depressed side already so my point of view might be a bit skewed. But when I watch Office Space or other works by Mike Judge, I realize I'm not exactly alone at least.

And keep in mind that this article is about a Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) type business - what about that is all that revolutionary? I'm sure the leadership wrapped it up as "empowering people to purchase goods they need today" or something else, but everyone knows they're selling people baubles like TVs with predatory lending, right?

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by ww520 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:50PM (#32461803)
Story time. I was looking to buy a 911 in the past. Found one at a dealership. The car was 3 years old, just off lease, in good condition, and with no accidents shown in Carfax.

I searched the VIN number in the state’s DMV car registration database. Well well. The car had an expired tag and had high thousands of dollars of unpaid taxes, fees and penalties against it. The owner had never bothered to pay any taxes and fees over the years. I would have to pay all those when doing the car transfer at DMV.

I was kind of pissed and disgusted. I then searched the VIN number on the web. Found the VIN in a post in a car forum for an attempt to sell the car. It had a phone number!

I searched the phone number. Got the name of the guy and his company. He was the founder and CEO of a startup.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by justsomehnguy on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:57PM (#32461856)
> I would have to pay all those when doing the car transfer at DMV.

...why are these are on the car and not on the person?

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by ww520 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:39PM (#32462734)
DMV doesn't care who pays it. They won't process the title transfer of the car as long as there're unpaid taxes or fines. Imagine I've already paid the money to make the purchase, and later going to DMV to transfer the car title but find out I couldn't due to unpaid fines. What could I do? Either paid the outstanding fines or sued the owner to revert the sale. Headaches all around. I didn't go through with the purchase at the end.

I talked to another car dealer and asked him about it. He said this kind of car was usually sold to people in another states, where their DMV won't enforce California's taxes and fines.

The lesson here is be sure to check for a clear title on the car, including DMV fees and fines, before making a purchase.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by justsomehnguy on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:12PM (#32464411)
> DMV doesn't care who pays it.

Well, thi is understandable but it doesn't explain why these fines are on the item and not on the person [who disn't paid the taxes]

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by geysersam on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:07PM (#32461964)
> what about that is all that revolutionary?

Exactly. I've seen a lot of media coverage on Klarna (I'm Swedish), often with the angle "wow, innovation". The question I've too often wished journalist had asked is "Why?", what's the benefit of what you do? Except being more shiny.

Lot of waste in the tech sector. Sad how many skilled people work endlessly on more effective ways of pushing ads and loans, to make us desire and buy things we don't need with money we don't have.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by apurtbapurt on Sunday August 14, 2022 @05:36PM (#32463177)
Revolutionary is of course an extreme stretch, but they do add unique convenience to the checkout process.

No user account creation, no entering of address and credit card number. Just click purchase and confirm with BankID. I also like that they retain neatly organized purchase history across all vendors, including permanent storage of the product images.

I prefer klarna so much, that I occassionally simply go to another etailer if there is no Klarna checkout option in the first place I try to buy something.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by geysersam on Monday August 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#32469760)
> add unique convenience to the checkout process.

Why not just use something like Swish?

The transaction is finished immediately. No need to de-select any "Pay later" options etc. No need to install their app on your phone.

No need to share your purchase history with some third party with an yet unknown (undetermined) monetization model. Swish is owned by your bank, and you already trust them with your transaction history.

Seems more convenient to me.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by erenyeager on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:33PM (#32462684)
Buy Now Pay Later actually has a really good use case, it’s for people who may be wary of credit cards, interest, and or low credit scores. For example, many people who wouldn’t take out credit cards will use BNPL. Also, usury is prohibited in the major Abrahamic religions, so BNPL can also work for client avoiding interest loans.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hotpotamus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:07PM (#32463451)
So before I worked at the last job, I worked for a camera store back in the last days where those were still generally a thing (2004-2010 - it wasn't too bad of a job for a kid in school). We offered by now, pay later back then, and I don't think we invented it either. Of course it was basically just a credit card application, and there was no requirement to pay it off within a set amount of time, but if you didn't, then they'd hit you with all the interest that had quietly been accruing during their "introductory period" or whatever they called it. Which is to say that it was scummy and deceptive, but not much more so than other American business practices and certainly less than others, and hey they had to make money and eat too.

Perhaps Klarna really is better, but then again maybe that's why they're hemorrhaging money at such an impressive rate.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by erenyeager on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:53PM (#32464649)
I know PayPal "Buy-in-4" has no interest or late fees in its terms. So in that regard, it really is a 0-interest loan, paid in 4 installments. I haven't looked into Klarna, but there's an NPR Planet Money podcast about these types of schemes. The profits are made up by the fact that demand increases compared to credit cards (many are ineligible for credit cards, or don't use them for whichever reason), and that the merchant is charged a higher rate by the BNPL company.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by bufferoverflow on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:30PM (#32464510)
It's not crazy. If you grow the company, and if you have had stock compensation at any point in the past, it's in your interest to scale the company as much as possible. Profits don't go into your pockets, but the growth does.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hef19898 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:10PM (#32461471)
That is the Amazon way, baby! Not.

If a company doesn't make money, cash flow and / or profits (preferably both), it is just under cutting the competition (if smart) or on its way into bancrupcy (if not so smart) or both.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by allenu on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:43PM (#32461743)
I agree that many are just trying to undercut the competition. My pet theory is this is having an effect on consumers' expectations for tech-based products. Specifically, nobody thinks anything is worth paying for, or at least only want to pay a small price. That leads to only big companies being able to compete in markets since they can subsidize products for a long time.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by BeFlatXIII on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:35PM (#32461157)
Software as the chips in the stock market casino.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by blantonl on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:56PM (#32462376)
Rackspace?
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hotpotamus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:08PM (#32463459)
Well spotted ;)
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by blantonl on Monday August 15, 2022 @11:25AM (#32470894)
I live in SA, also one of my neighbors was brought into the c-suite when they first went PE, so this story looked pretty familiar :)
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by djmips on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:52PM (#32461310)
Sounds like the old old SNL skit about banking.

Wikipedia- "First CityWide Change Bank – Two ads promote a financial institution whose only service is providing change (e.g. "you come to us with 16 quarters, 8 dimes, and 4 nickels, we can give you a 5 dollar bill"). How does First CityWide make money doing this? As one service rep says it, "The answer is simple: Volume"."

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by nr2x on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:12PM (#32462009)
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by Animats on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:16PM (#32462049)
That's Coinstar's business model.

They charge a commission now, but originally, they didn't. They pitched the system to stores as a way of freeing up cashier time wasted counting coins.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by drc500free on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:43PM (#32461240)
> Every day I feel like I live the Homer Simpson quote, "I don't know how the economy works".

This was my attempt to explain this phenomenon. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32453161

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by qbasic_forever on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:54PM (#32460765)
For the past decade money has been effectively free to borrow with interest rates at zero. All the companies that immediately went bankrupt, into layoffs, etc. when interest rates were raised this year were coasting on these financial fumes.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by killSp4m on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:12PM (#32461489)
Powell wants to keep wages tethered to his preferred reality of 2% inflation versus the actual reality people live on. The real issue with inflation is it devalues the public hallucination; fiat money: https://www.wsj.com/articles/transcript-fed-chief-powells-po...

Fear mongering over employment security is a favorite tactic: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o...

The reality is “people need to eat”, will trade as they must to do so. We don’t actually rely on government officials to do the work; we placate the die hards by speaking in the traditions. They’re yanking on the leash they have.

Big tech looking to axe senior talent and big pay days for cheaper Gen Z grads; a quiet wealth redistribution plan. Some of the rich senior tech people would move on to cheaper locales and perhaps build businesses.

We’re in the ML era and a lot of senior folks are from the “manually program a machine” era; that’s a way over valued skill set now; it’s everywhere.

Cheaper talent with the latest collegiate training not the old ways baked in, could offset the expense of moonshots, hoping to boost an ML-backed cloud economy post generic server backed cloud.

Google’s Eric Schmidt has been in DC lobbying for AI investment: https://www.vox.com/recode/2022/6/9/23160588/eric-schmidt-am...

Picking the winners right away to avoid the last decades shotgun approach.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by treis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:22PM (#32461047)
In a lot of ways internet businesses are like buying bonds. You pay some cost to acquire a customer and will get revenue from them over time. You can calculate a present value for that customer based on that future revenue. As long as that value is more than what you paid to acquire the customer you're making money.

And if your numbers are right then you, more or less, want to spend as much money as you can buying customers. So that's how companies with numbers like this continue to operate.

To put it simply, Klarna is spending a billion dollars to buy customers that will generate more than a billion dollars in revenue. The catch is that you have to pay now for later revenue. So your numbers look like crap until your existing customers far outnumber your new ones.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by disgruntledphd2 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:29PM (#32461628)
This is a very, very dangerous business to be in unless your numbers are rock solid and you make sure your models reflect reality.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by deltree7 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:42PM (#32461731)
all businesses are risky. that's why we have capitalism and there are bunch of people who are willing to take the risk and rewarded for taking that risk
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by geysersam on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:15PM (#32462036)
Rewarded for luring people into consumption loan debt? Great system.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by deltree7 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:48PM (#32462307)
debt is a fantastic instrument that solves a production / consumption mismatch of both individuals and humanity.

A 55 year old is the most productive member of a society, but that is also the age where you start to consume very little.

Imagine if you had to 'save' to get your college education, your home, a laptop, or starting a business. There is a reason we don't ask babies to 'pay up' for milk or shelter.

Imagine if Larry Page or Sergey Brin had to work and save to start Google.

Imagine if government had to save trillions of dollars before investing in Carbon Capture and renewable energy generations.

Yes, all good things can be abused. But you can't prevent good things for 95% society because a 5% of the society abuses it

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by geysersam on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:14PM (#32462526)
Never said debt is intrinsically harmful.

I do however think consumption debt, for goods such as clothes or the next iphone, is harmful.

They're not investments, like an education or a car.

It's a tax on people who don't have money in the bank to buy such things up front.

Usually such loan "services" are marketed in a way that hides the effective cost of the loan to the customer. Especially problematic for young people less experienced handling money.

> But you can't prevent good things for 95% society because a 5% of the society abuses it

Sounds like you thought I suggested prohibiting debt in general. That's a misunderstanding. It's definitely possible to prohibit predatory lending strategies.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by deltree7 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:24PM (#32462605)
I would challenge that notion too.

I rather travel the world, eat great food, take tennis lessons, dance into the night when I'm in 20's and 30's where I get the most enjoyment rather than in my 60s where my body is not in good physical shape to do any of those things.

The fact that I travelled the world in my 20s may also enhance my own future productivity.

I would even further claim that not enough people go into debt. There are plenty of young people (70% or more) in developing countries who can get into travel, education, iPhone/Samsung, great food debt and their country (and the rest of the world) will benefit immensely from it in the long run.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by geysersam on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:47PM (#32462800)
This is delusional and besides the point.

You can't loan for consumption in your 20-30s, planning to pay it back in your 40s and 50s. Klarna does not even offer loans beyond 36 months, and month 1 to 36 you have 20% interest rate! If you skip a payment there are steep fees.

Klarna is for short term loans. Like, half a month.

Klarna is definitely not offering their service to poor people in developing nations. Even if they did, how would a 20% interest loan for an Iphone help anyone escape poverty?

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by deltree7 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @05:49PM (#32463285)
I never mentioned anything about Klarna. I merely commented on capitalism and debt
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by yuliyp on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:54PM (#32462359)
They're much riskier bonds. The market can change, or competitors can try to win customers over, or anything else to throw out those lifetime value calculations.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by logifail on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:51PM (#32460740)
> As Klarna has expanded its BNPL offering, its losses have increased. It reported a net loss of $730 million in 2021, a 337 percent increase on its 2020 loss

Yet the tone from the acticle is that employees appeared to think the company was successful?

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by PheonixPharts on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:02PM (#32460851)
At least in tech there are people who have had decade+ long careers where it was very feasible to never work for a company that actually made more money than it spent. I've been at multiple startups that had VCs pressure leadership not to make profit because that would hurt growth of some other KPI of interest (users, revenue etc).

In the last few year many of these people have seen these companies go public, and their imaginary Options/RSUs suddenly turn to liquid assets. Company hasn't started making profits, P/E is negative, but TC has gone up by 50%-200%. That certainly feels like success.

Looking back at my own career the companies that made the least profit (including negative) are the ones that have paid me the most.

I'm old enough to remember the pre-dotcom bust chats of "new economy" and "things are different now", and how all of the stuffy old finance people who thought businesses should make more than they spend where ultimately proven correct.

For many people, even in their late 30s, the ability for a company to actually make more than it spends has been an academic curiosity, hardly relevant to the success of a company.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by orzig on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:15PM (#32460964)
Agreed, and the opposite is true: I started at a small public company which had stopped growing and become profitable. It was targeted for a hostile takeover by PE who thought it could grow more.

To their credit it did, and (to the extent your willing to believe unaudited financials) again became profitable.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by toomuchtodo on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:18PM (#32461003)
The stock and exuberance are the product.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by logifail on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:43PM (#32461246)
> The stock and exuberance are the product.

I've worked at places where the slide decks were always full of exuberance. At one of them they were exuberant right up until the moment the staff found themselves locked out of the offices after being told that a liquidator was in charge.

It's not pretty.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by toomuchtodo on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:09PM (#32461468)
Same!
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by cosmodisk on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:08PM (#32460911)
The company I used to work for got acquired by a listed company. At the same time, I was doing finance module at the university. One assignment was to analyse a company's financial reports and come up with a conclusion. So I analysed the company I worked for and the outcome was that I need to get out. At the same time the company was sending communication as it's about to discover time travel and unicorn milk.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by logifail on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:40PM (#32461214)
> At the same time, I was doing finance module at the university. One assignment was to analyse a company's financial reports and come up with a conclusion. So I analysed the company I worked for and the outcome was that I need to get out.

That's interesting. My OH is almost half way through her MBA and for one recent module, she chose to analyse her current employer's financial reports and come up with a conclusion. Her conclusion is also that she needs to get out.

I wonder how many tech employees can actually read a financial report, though?

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by sys_64738 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:31PM (#32461646)
> Her conclusion is also that she needs to get out.

It depends. I haven't been RIF'd before but would take a package if they were layoffs if I had the opportunity. I'd also use as much of unemployment as I could for as long as I could. Basically I'd be looking to maximize the amount of time I can go before I'd need another job.

Just because a company appears to be running out of cash doesn't necessarily mean you need to leave immediately if they do downsizing.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hef19898 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:34PM (#32461671)
To my surprise hardly anybody outside, and even some inside, of finance can. Not that I'm an expert, but I understand a balance sheet, can interpret the expebse lines, understand a cash flow sheet and can read (after having been to a couole of audits) the SOX relevant audit statements of public US companies. And yes, those tell you an aweful lot about your employer. And yes, part of me came to the same conclusion as your OH and the OP.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by dthul on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:28PM (#32461620)
Any good resources for a tech employee to learn about these things without having studied it?
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by cosmodisk on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:58PM (#32462395)
The Economist Guide To Analysing Companies is a good start. Others would be corporate finance books or intro books to accounting.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by bombcar on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:56PM (#32460785)
Employees base company success on internal metrics and how they're being paid, few employees bother looking at publicly available numbers lest they "jinx" it.

(Or the ones that do see the writing on the wall and bail, or decide to ride it out as long as they can).

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by hef19898 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:30PM (#32461632)
It truely shocking how little employees can care about their employers finacials.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by foepys on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:59PM (#32460820)
Since Uber seems to be a benchmark for VC start-ups (Uber for X) and Uber is still losing money in the tens or hundreds of millions per year, I am not surprised that employees think that Klarna is a success.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by throwaway859383 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:01PM (#32461387)
Up until a massive expansion push some years ago, Klarna used to be a profitable company. It expanded from 3200 employees in 2019 to the 7000 that are there now. They also started spending money on experiments that had not much to do with the core business.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by indymike on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:25PM (#32461596)
Employee count may be the worst business metric of all time.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by ImPostingOnHN on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:16PM (#32462051)
depends, for what?

it is a good metric for number of employees you employ :)

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by throwaway98797 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:20PM (#32462082)
money raised is better (worse)
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by lumost on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:29PM (#32461104)
For transaction processing, wouldn't a 1-3% margin be about the maximum achievable? That would translate to about 15 million dollars in potential profit against a 730 million loss.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by treis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:44PM (#32461250)
1-3% of the transaction volume. That percentage is the 1.4 billion Klarna takes as revenue. The margins of that can be very high.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by yobbo on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:22PM (#32462104)
> That percentage is the 1.4 billion Klarna takes as revenue.

Implying that transaction volume is on the order of $200 billion? No.

For perspective, Amazon's 2018 revenue is $230 billion.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by lumost on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:01PM (#32461909)
Are we sure that that's true? As a private company klarna can choose any metric they so desire as revenue...
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by christophilus on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:51PM (#32462332)
What? Isn’t revenue kind of … revenue? What else can it be?
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by lumost on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:56PM (#32462865)
To my knowledge, there isn't any reason klarna can't describe their transaction volume as revenue. Then declare their margin 3%.

As a private tech company I would assume that they are using the broadest possible definition of revenue.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by Montaque on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:54AM (#32466034)
No. GAAP and IFRS have very strict definitions of Revenue. Transaction volume falls under the agency principle. Its not the Co's revenue.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by yobbo on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:55AM (#32466629)
That's not what a klarna transaction is.

Klarna pays the vendor immediately (with its credit line), and the user enters into a sort of debt contract with klarna.

Klarna's revenue is what it receives from the user.

It's a great business model when the interest rate is 0%.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by peyton on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:56PM (#32464332)
Dunno about Sweden but lots of compensation stuff triggers financial reporting requirements for obvious reasons.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by naturalauction on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:48PM (#32461280)
I think Klarna can charge slightly higher fees to merchants (it looks like they charge up to 6%) as sales increase with buy now pay later. Also they probably think they can make money off of servicing the debt (late fees, interest on balances).
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by dilyevsky on Sunday August 14, 2022 @05:35PM (#32463166)
Per https://www.klarna.com/international/regulatory-news/klarna-... their volume was $80B last year, 1.4B was their cut (1-3%) aka revenue, and the profit would depend on bunch of things such as their marketing/sales spend, wages, debt servicing, etc and most likely has been negative.

Edit: not "most likely" - apparently they lost to the tune of $700M

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by yobbo on Monday August 15, 2022 @03:18AM (#32466769)
$80B is a number much higher than I thought, but Klarna correctly calls their $1.4B net operating income.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by peyton on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:01PM (#32461393)
Visa’s margins are like 50–60%.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by RandomLensman on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:05PM (#32460881)
From the outside, I find it difficult to judge as management might have been focused on top line growth (given investors preferences in recent years). A (possibly) changed focus could now mean a very different profit profile will develop.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by Traubenfuchs on Sunday August 14, 2022 @12:53PM (#32460756)
That's insane -what's the magic event people believe will turn those losses around?
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by VLM on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:10PM (#32461474)
A classic argument is future sales are equivalent enough to be an asset. So as long as your balance sheet including future sales is growing faster than your income sheet is shrinking, its "OK".

There's a lot of assuming spherical cows going on. If the bean counters like the result when the average customer is milked for six years until having to replace them, that's great, unless customer service is so awful the average customer is gone in six months, or a competitor comes along in two years and wipes you out, market changes evaporate the revenue stream in five years, etc.

BTW this is the housing bubble in a nutshell. Lets say you buy a shack for half a mil at 6% for 30 years which from memory is almost exactly $3K/month. Not because you would, but because these are engineering estimates with very round numbers that are easy to memorize. Anyway, you'll spend 30 years in a row with a negative income statement of losing $36K per year on that shack. Actually you'll lose a ton more money due to maint, taxes, insurance, PMI, remodeling, appliances, whatever else. But who cares about the income statement, because if the total losses over 30 years are a bit over a million, if on the balance sheet the asset goes up to five million because interest rates only go down and real estate only goes up (until it doesn't, LOL) over the same time frame you can cash out for four million net gain? Of course if the shack only goes up to a million because its not in a bubble area like Arizona or whatever, you've not quite broken even, or god forbid if it only goes up to 3/4 of a mil you've lost quite a large life changing sum of money.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by mrweasel on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:10PM (#32460930)
It's kinda fascinating really. We had a client that had only ever lost money. Their idea was pretty good, they had what I'd call a working prototype and paying customers. Our CEO happened to know one of the investors, and chatted with him about the investment and the numbers we did on a whiteboard. Even if they grew their business with 10 times the number of customers, and each customer ramped up their usage 10 times it would take 10 - 12 years to make back the money that had already been spend. That was assuming no new investments and zero cost in those 10 to 12 years. The idea that this may not have been the best investment in history was more or less brushed, as the stock price would surely rise.

VC funding is weird.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by runnerup on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:18PM (#32461000)
Even if the already-invested money can’t be recouped, marginal additional investment could theoretically be with favorable (LIFO) terms offered typically offered to later investment.

So sure, acknowledge a bad $300 million bet, but then throw your next $50 million at the same bet if it looks like the best place to put a marginal $50 million.

I don’t always think investors are doing this rationally - sunk cost fallacy / gamblers paradox / greater fool theory / FOMO all play a part, but also recognize that lots of these super large investments are led by a small team using lots of other peoples money so there are ways for the decision-makers to come out closer to breakeven if much of the pot is lost.

Also with potential IPO’s and sky high rate of valuation growth over the past decade, the “greater fool theory” isn’t necessarily an irrational motivation to invest.

Not all smart investments are value-based.

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by lumost on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:36PM (#32461175)
A company built to operate as a 100 billion dollar behemoth can rarely transition to a 1 billion dollar success without lots of pain.

To make this transition, your going to need to crush a lot of dreams and projects. Why would the result not be a hollowed out hulk of a company?

Re:The layoffs at Klarna by sys_64738 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @02:33PM (#32461665)
It depends on the exit strategy. The technology will sometimes be scooped up by a big fish and take the key employees with it. When folk invest VC cash then they are sprinkling it amongst many projects that will have most typically fail. A Couple making it will give them the VC investment reward.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by vadym909 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:14PM (#32460959)
Most point to Amazon as the example of it will turn around once they start to dominate their space
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by kzrdude on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:12PM (#32460945)
Monopolizing it's market? It looked they were nearly there for payment processing in swedish online shopping.
Re:The layoffs at Klarna by tibbydudeza on Sunday August 14, 2022 @01:11PM (#32460938)
Uber