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Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by jpgvm on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:05AM (#31895580)
I don't think the IE comparison is apt.

IE shipped on (almost) every machine, had a ton of lock in features like ActiveX, etc. MS actively abused their monopoly position to make it so preventing default installation of Netscape by OEMs, incentivising ISVs to ensure web based enterprise products shipped with "Works best in Internet Explorer" etc. Netscape lost market share to IE not because it lost users but because while the userbase was massively expanding they were buying Wintel boxes that shipped with IE on them so they never learnt that Netscape existed.

Chrome is something users install because it's their preferred choice. We can argue as to why it's their preferred choice but the point remains that users actively download and install Chrome - usually as one of the first things they do when they purchase a new computer.

That to me puts things on an entirely different level. To compete reasonably with Chrome you need to compete for users directly. You could argue that Google abuses it's monopoly position to market Chrome and that would probably be a valid argument but again, it doesn't change the active decision users are making.

If anything Safari (especially on iOS) is more like IE. In that it serves Apple more than it serves users. Apple wants PWAs to remain gimped, by simply dragging their feet or refusing to implement certain web standards/proposals they effectively gimp PWAs. This forces apps to be written for their platform which in turn is where they generate the vast majority of their scalable growth/profit.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by GrabbinD33ze69 on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:15PM (#31898451)
Pretending that just cause chrome doesn't come installed with the android open src project, means it isn't a "default" for android is silly; yes, google play services isn't required for android, but an overwhelming majority of android users will see chrome as the default for the OS. You claim they are making a choice, but for the average user it doesn't seem like much of a choice. It's easier for most android apps just to use chrome as an "in app browser", while the users have the option to use a different browser, most won't.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by Raymonf on Monday June 27, 2022 @07:11PM (#31902135)
What? The "majority of Android users" are Samsung users, where Samsung Internet is the default. Sure, it's Chromium-based, but not Chrome.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by cute_boi on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:14AM (#31895700)
Chrome is installed by default in android. The choice won't be preferred choice if website starts to put message like "Works best with Google Chrome".
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by googlryas on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:38PM (#31897925)
No it isn't - that is a choice made by phone vendors to include it, but they are perfectly free to ship their phones with firefox, or opera, or no browser at all.

The android OS has no knowledge of chrome and it doesn't get any special handling or abilities like iOS/Safari.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by pdpi on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:51PM (#31898120)
The Android OS has no knowledge of Chrome, but AIUI the licencing for Play Services basically forces you into installing it
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by lkramer on Monday June 27, 2022 @03:57PM (#31899927)
I am unable to uninstall Chrome from my Android phone. That seems pretty special.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by jcranberry on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:23PM (#31898563)
Samsung by default has their own chromium based browser as the default.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by smoldesu on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:17AM (#31895761)
Websites already have to do that, because Safari still lacks a number of web technologies that get picked up faster on Chrome and Firefox.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by jeromegv on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#31897016)
But they can’t on mobile. Which is now a bigger part of the web.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by smoldesu on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:26PM (#31898611)
Sure they can.

"The Reddit experience isn't complete in your browser. Please download the official app to continue:"

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by jensensbutton on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:22PM (#31897718)
They can on Android.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by freedomben on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:26AM (#31895909)
Indeed. can you imagine if Microsoft had made it so that IE was the only browser you were allowed to install on Windows so you couldn't install Netscape even if you wanted to?
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by AlexandrB on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:21PM (#31896787)
This would have been fine if Windows wasn't 95+% of desktop computer market share at the time. The regulatory argument was that Microsoft was abusing their desktop OS monopoly to give themselves an unfair advantage in another market (browsers).

By contrast iOS is ~50% of mobile OS market share (in the US, I think it's less elsewhere). Hardly a monopoly. If using a different mobile browser is important to you, there's a competing, popular mobile OS that can provide that.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by warning26 on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:54PM (#31897309)
People always say "oh you can just switch mobile OSes" as if that's as simple as walking into a Target instead of a Walmart.

Ecosystems exist. Throw away your phone and every piece of software you've ever bought for it just so you can install a particular app? Ridiculous.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by fauigerzigerk on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:23PM (#31897733)
This logic doesn't work with just two competitors globally. What if choosing my browser isn't the only thing important to me?

If governments give corporations with such overwhelming market dominance completely free rein then developers are nothing more than sharecroppers and consumers are going to pay the price either financially, in terms of privacy or through limited choice.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by stale2002 on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:05PM (#31897461)
> Hardly a monopoly

The specific term here would be duopoly.

And a duopoly still has a large ability to engage in anti-competitive practices that harm the market.

50% of a market is with the realm where you can cause significant harm to competition.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by Nullabillity on Monday June 27, 2022 @05:50PM (#31901323)
Apple makes 100% of the OS options available to iDevices, and 100% of all devices that run iOS.

They also control 100% of the OSes that run iOS applications, and allow iOS purchases to be redeemed.

That sounds a lot like a monopoly to me.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by yladiz on Monday June 27, 2022 @08:50PM (#31902836)
Yeah, if you've chosen a contrived and extremely narrowly defined market as the one you base whether something is a monopoly, of course it's going to sound like a monopoly.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by ImPostingOnHN on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @04:34PM (#31912676)
Your response fails to meaningfully address any of the points in the post it is responding to

you could have saved time and just said "I disagree but refuse to explain my disagreement"

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by silvestrov on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:31PM (#31896953)
Also: It was bad for Microsoft if browsers became too good as the Windows OS then could too easily be replaced by cheaper platforms. So Microsoft wanted to keep browsers back as much as possible.

It's good for Google when Chrome is good. So Google has a great incitament to improve Chrome. The only drawbacks would be proprietary functionality others can't use.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by AlexandrB on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:45PM (#31897179)
The other drawback is that Google is an advertising company that has an incentive to track users across the web. In a Chrome monopoly how easy would it be to avoid being tracked? Especially by Google. Recently, Chrome was the only major browser to adopt Google's FLoC[1]. If Chrome was even more dominant would it have mattered if Edge/Safari/Firefox didn't adopt this tracking technology?

[1] https://www.howtogeek.com/724441/what-is-googles-floc-and-ho...

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by IX-103 on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:13PM (#31898426)
Google is an advertising company, but that's not the main reason for their privacy sandbox and it's ad-friendly features. Google needs the open web to survive as a search provider. If everything turns into a paywall or cookie/privacy wall then Google can't index that content. They already can't see the content on Facebook and Twitter.

Google makes most of their money from search ads -- I've heard upwards of 80% -- and search ads supposedly don't even use targeting information.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by Mikeb85 on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:40PM (#31898806)
> The only drawbacks would be proprietary functionality others can't use.

And what proprietary functionality is that? Chromium exists and does all the same things.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by dmitriid on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @12:30AM (#31904086)
> Chrome is something users install because it's their preferred choice.

Ah yes.

The preferred choice advertised by dominant web search.

The preferred choice that is forced by Google apps when clicking on links that actually conveniently forget about said choice.

The preferred choice when Google sabotages competition across its dominant platforms https://twitter.com/johnath/status/1116871231792455686

And so on

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by kennywinker on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:07PM (#31898333)
If you use firefox or safari, you routinely encounter sites that don't work without chrome.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by depressedpanda on Monday June 27, 2022 @04:11PM (#31900127)
I keep hearing people say this, but it's not my experience at all. I have no idea what kind of web sites they're visiting.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by artdigital on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @03:07AM (#31904993)
> Chrome is something users install because it's their preferred choice. We can argue as to why it's their preferred choice but the point remains that users actively download and install Chrome - usually as one of the first things they do when they purchase a new computer.

Chrome is getting bundled with a buttload of software. So many software that comes with an ‘installer’ has a hidden checkbox somewhere that if you don’t uncheck it, it will install Chrome on your windows machine.

Also Edge is now the default on Windows which is also Chromium. So a Chromium-only future doesn’t sound so distant anymore.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by jpgvm on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @03:40AM (#31905180)
I think there is a big difference between engine monopoly vs browser monopoly, however that does depend on how well governance works for the Chromium project (I really don't know enough to assert anything concrete).

Namely an engine isn't a product and most value-add is in the porcelain of the browser, implementation of web standards -shouldn't- be a competitive advantage because doing leads the the sort of fragmentation that we don't want.

If all the major browsers shared and worked on a single engine collaboratively (similar to PostgreSQL and Linux) I think the web would be a -much- better place as a result for a number of reasons.

1. Aforementioned standards could be relied on by developers.

2. Browser vendors could spend less time duplicating efforts on low level standards implementation that aren't product differentiation.

3. Platform specific performance optimisation could be shared across browsers instead, i.e Safari like energy performance for everyone.

4. Plugin architecture could potentially be shared across all available browsers which would help plugin authors out significantly.

5. The engine could be linked as a dynamic library so that multiple browsers could be installed without duplicating the engine binaries if they are using the same version (probably only viable on Linux distributions but would be nice)

6. Fuzzing and security efforts wouldn't need to be duplicated across engines. This is important because of just how gnarly the sorts of code you see in browsers. Namely XML/SGML parsers, JS runtimes/isolation, etc. Also with every vendor chipping in this infrastructure could likely be greatly expanded.

This is a utopian view and most of this probably wouldn't come to pass because the world sucks at doing the "right" thing but the potential is there.

On the other hand the downsides mostly amount to Chromium governance could be bad and Google could abuse their position to make it hard to create new browsers based on Chromium/Blink. However they would be incentivised not to in order to prevent a return to the current fragmented situation.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by dmitriid on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:31AM (#31906396)
Current theoretical way of web standards is: a standard can only become a standard if there are two independent implementations of it.

This somewhat prevents browsers from implementing fully proprietary tech that canät be replicated by anyone else. It does lead to problems like WebSQL being scrapped (the idea was to basically run sqlite in the browser, Mozilla said they donät want to reverse-engineer sqlite behaviour for an independent implementation, the idea was scrapped).

However, with Google dominance we see more and more things appearing in Chrome only and based on Chrome's own goals, and then advertised as standards.

There's an ideal state somewhere, but I don't know how we could reach it.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by jpgvm on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:21AM (#31906740)
Yeah I think it's a difference in philosophy somewhat. PostgreSQL and Linux aren't standards, they are just shared infrastructure.

If Chromium was to become the same thing we could have just had WebSQL assuming maintainers agreed it was worth landing and maintaining.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by Melatonic on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:06PM (#31897475)
Lets face it - IE always just sucked. A lot. Whereas Chrome does not. Here on HN we might rail on it mainly for ideological reasons but the user experience is pretty solid. This is coming from a Firefox user.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by toast0 on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:14PM (#31897590)
IE 4 and 6 were decent to good compared to competitors when released (although, IIRC, neither had ftp support?). What sucked was that they stagnated at that point in time while also becoming dominant. IE 5 for mac was well regarded, but I don't have personal memories.

None of the future IEs were very good though, IMHO.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by MBCook on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:29PM (#31898642)
That’s my memory. I remember IE being a great browser.

It’s only what MS let happen later that turned IE into the pariah it is today.

Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by saratogacx on Monday June 27, 2022 @05:39PM (#31901208)
At the time you didn't need to ship ftp with IE. You could load up an FTP site by opening up an FTP address in explorer. You didn't get the familiar html-netscape-like interface but you could navigate an FTP site like it was just a network folder.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by icedchai on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:11PM (#31898401)
Do you remember the early 2000's? IE was your only choice for a decent browser. Netscape was bordering obsolescence (bad CSS support, generally unstable, slow rendering.) Even Apple was shipping it on the Mac! It wasn't until the 2.0 release of Firefox in 2006 that there was finally a decent alternative.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by larusso on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:35PM (#31898737)
I started using Firefox in the 0. versions mainly because someone wrote an extension to have tabs with websites in one window. That was it for me and I use Firefox ever since. I managed to survive the memory bloat phase. I was super happy when the quantum version was released and Firefox was suddenly on par again with chrome. At least for a short moment. I‘m an iOS user because I try to keep google out of my live (need to get rid of YouTube though). I also use the Firefox app but only since iOS supports the feature to set a different default browser app. Before that it was useless to use a different browser app when any link from other apps always open Safari.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by sitkack on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:33PM (#31897857)
This is a pedantic and uncharitable take.
Re:Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security by dang on Monday June 27, 2022 @06:44PM (#31901887)
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive (or name-calling) comments to HN. If you want to say specifically what you think is correct or incorrect, that would of course be great.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html