Like people fleeing the Northern Triangle are absolutely someone that US has a moral obligation to help.
Arguably helping people in Cuba, Venezuela or Taiwan - is less of a moral imperative. Because those issues aren't American responsibility anymore.
Oh?
Its just that we would like for those with very little knowledge of their own governments war crimes to pipe down a little with the...
targeting of civilian infrastructure, the torture, rape, and murder of civilians that Russian government is pursuing RIGHT NOW and has pursued... Narrative.
It comes across as dishonest at best.
Who do you mean by western nations? Which western nation has been at war in the last 50 years? I have a premonition that whatever "western nation" you are talking about is probably not part of the ICC because they do not want to be charged with war crimes...just a wild guess.
So please save your feigned indignation.
Why do they always do diminish struggle of people and nations outside of West?
It's like they're always saying "nah everybody hurts, you're not going through anything special, let's talk about us instead".
For me personally, this has nothing to do with whataboutism. I just want my country’s actions to reflect its stated principles. Partly because I don’t want my taxes supporting oppression and genocide, and partly because I want us to be seen as credible by the rest of the world when we condemn abuses by Russia, China, or any other country.
The military is widely unquestionably supported in US. Public is not even remotely trying to keep the covert and intelligence agencies in check... Remember how ATF sold AK47 to Mexican cartels?
The issue is willful ignorance on behalf of many americans. To the point that most aren't even aware that US intelligence is spying on allied leaders(Merkel's phone was tapped by US)
You could get closer to an answer by counting the corpses.
However - it did cripple German production capacity, because people go to factories.
As far as blaming - we blamed a subset of people and put the responsibility of reparations on all German citizens(born and unborn). We made sure that they knew why the war happened and how horrible it was. We went so far, that only last month did Germany get over the pacification.
The military didn’t give the press inside access to the process of returning bodies, unless they agreed not to photograph.
The fact that the military wasn’t allowing members of the press access to events that members of the general public were forbidden from is not censorship.
Heck, the press actually were allowed special access, but only on the condition they not photograph.
Freedom of the press is not the same as privileged access for the press.
And the policy began in the first gulf war, but the second.
>>U.S. lifts photo ban on military coffins
>>In a reversal of an 18-year-old military policy that critics said was hiding the ultimate cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,
https://web.archive.org/web/20220302035710/https://www.nytim...
> During the 2nd gulf war against Iraq, when the death toll began to rise, the US government forbade the reporting of military personnel coffins returning from the war zone
This is demonstrably false:
https://la.indymedia.org/news/2008/01/212729.php
You then provided an article that said the US had reversed its policy of “not allowing photographs” of military coffins.
Which is a very different thing from not reporting on them.
The rule against photographs only applied military bases, which already have very strict rules about photography.
Your initial claim was that there reporters were forbidden to report on bodies returning home. You made this claim to draw a parallel with Russian censorship.
The Russians arent merely making access to military bases conditional on not taking photographs - they’re engaging in political censorship.
Again, it’s very, very, very common to restrict photography on military bases, even by members of the press.
No it's not, read the article.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220302035710/https://www.nytim...
>>the news media will now be allowed to photograph the flag-draped coffins of America's war dead as their bodies are returned to the United States
And please stop with your cheap "indymedia"
>Which is a very different thing from not reporting on them.
Yes different but not far away from hiding...you know a picture say's more then thousand word's, the pentagon knows that too.
The difference is seeing 30 coffins on the way home, compared to one coffin returning to he's home village.
1 Coffin = Bad, but it is like it is.
30 Coffins on one Flight/Picture...terrible.
> 1 Coffin = Bad, but it is like it is.
> 30 Coffins on one Flight/Picture...terrible.
Is that what the Russian government is doing?
Restricting photographs on government facilities to prevent bad optics (while allowing reporters to write, say, publish, and broadcast whatever they want)?
Reporters in Russia are free to publish what they want?
Remember, you brought this up to draw a parallel with what the Russian government is doing.
No that's what the canceled US policy was for...did you still not read the article?
In Russia you can't talk about it because it's a state secret now, means you are not allowed to talk about deaths in the "special" operation.
No sure why you are so blind on one eye but not on the other?
>Remember, you brought this up to draw a parallel with what the Russian government is doing.
I did never said it's the same. But it has the same goal, try to hide the results of war on your own soldiers.
As you can read:
>>Yes different but not far away from hiding...you know a picture say's more then thousand word's, the pentagon knows that too.
And "Russian people that could be either lied and manipulated" is very condescending.
Basically it's not hard to sell Nazis in Ukraine and "brotherly nation, that needs our help" narrative in Russia. The foundations are there, you just have to tap into them.
I literally was brought up on the idea that Ukraine is just the "border", not a real place. Kyiv is just another Russian city... and Ukrainians are just "polonized Russians". At 14 I was literally going to forums and argued against anyone claiming Ukrainian identity being separate.
Thankfully I grew out of that imperialist crap.
This is wildly misleading. It was during the first gulf war, and it wasn't a ban on the reporting of returning coffins, it was a ban on photographers entering the grounds of Dover Air Force Base where the coffins were received.
Inaccurate. If they obtained images by some other way, such as leaked from an airman who was there or taken with a long range lens there was nothing barring them from publishing them.
However I'm pretty sure it was during the 2nd gulf war, not the 1st.
Bro you're in front of a computer. If you doubted me it would take you ten seconds to verify that the photographer ban was imposed in 1991.
Em... We know, actually.
Simply because the current management is assigned to manage Yandex by Kremlin. It's the same case with VKontakte and MailRu. We have Telegram, because Kremlin pushed Durov out of the company.
So before you deflect - maybe ask Russian people that know what was happening in Russia for the last 20 years.
VKontakte is a great example because was literally a hostile takeover from Durov to Kremlin's oligarch Usmanov. They even accused Durov of "running over a policeman" as a threat to his arrest.
Other Russian media were consolidated as well mainly around Gazprom structures and holdings controlled by Sergey Chemezov, Putin's long time friend from his East Germany work and an ex-KGB general.
Please don't portray Yandex as a victim of strict martial laws (although oficially there is no war, only a "special operation". Calling it a war is an offence).
Let’s go beyond that. Let’s say that Yandex has been spreading propaganda on purpose for multiple years. That’s every other search engine too. Especially Google! If Russia or China wins a conflict, or begins one economically, do the employees of Google deserve to be punished for their work during this time? When you use logic and apply the same logic to the situation in reverse, it’s quite apparent that you have a bias, and that bias isn’t serving you well.
Please leave your "look at the West" whataboutism out of it. In the end it's your problem how you solve it.
We in Russia had our media crushed, filtered by Yandex and most journalists fled the country or were murdered.
Your whataboutism is just trying to diminish our struggle.
Nothing you have said in your post is unique to the geography, at all. If that makes you feel less special, good; there is nothing special about being from one geographical location or another, and nothing special about a murder in Africa vs. a murder in South America.
Murder is murder, you don’t have a worse kind. If there is something to discuss, it’s not from an angle of ideological context-macht.
In my experience, there's a higher percentage of, say, Navalny supporters among Russian programmers than among the general population. Russia's most popular engineering blog, Habr (kind of like Reddit for engineers), is generally distrusting of the government, comments that openly support the government are usually downvoted. One of the trending topics there is relocation outside of Russia. Hate against Russian programmers, in my opinion, is completely misdirected. The project is open source, using it does not sponsor Putin's war machine. I think collaboration is a better strategy in the long term as opposed to isolation and bullying which can turn the last sane Russians away from the West, playing into Putin's hands. We should judge people by their actions, not by their association with a particular ethnic group.
I have followed this entire debacle since the US did its coup in Ukraine in 2014 and actually understand things like the broken Minsk agreement and the 14k Donbas civilians that have been slaughtered by Azov battalion since 2014. The assertion that Russia is doing this to capture land to enrich itself is pure fiction. This is the Russian cuban missle crisis. I don’t agree with Russia invading Ukraine but on the other I understand it. The fault on this lies with the US and NATO and their creeping desire to place nukes closer and closer to Russia. The US’s illegal bio weapons labs in the country are also a big problem.
It seems you didn't read the datas very well, it's ~14k in total in Donbas from both sides, not only civilians. And surely not by Azov.
You should also clarify what is "ceasefire violation against the separatist-controlled area", because that doesn't sound like OSCE SMM terminology.
If you read SMM reports, they classify location of violations, and type. So if violation is in non government controlled territory, it can be anything from training, outgoing explosions, impact explosions, ...
So you can have a ceasefire violation in NGCA that is a shell impact there, or fire from there, or just training. Most violations are undeteremined.
https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-20-21%20Daily%20Report_EN...
The UN has reported that 81.4% of civilian casualties occurred in territory controlled by the Donbas republics:
https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-...
Is the reasonable conclusion that these deaths resulted from training and outgoing explosions?
Where do you draw the line of association?
This isn't "guilt by association". Yandex is part of the Russian government structure.
I'm sorry that you don't know that.
Arkady Volozh is a rare case of a (very) rich man in Russia who actually created his wealth by creating a company from scratch. None of the upper management are loyalists which is exhibited by amount of people who left the company since the start of the war, including from top ranks.
Quite a few in top management stay. Not because it's all rosy, but because they have obligations for supporting people working for them and people and business who rely on them. This won't stop the war but will make more lives miserable.
You might say, that supporting Russian people and Russian companies is unethical. As a Russian I disagree. I totally condemn what Russian government is doing but I don't think you understand how Russian society is structured currently if you think that killing non-government business will change anything in governments course. (This saddens me a lot)
Disclaimer: I worked at Yandex till 2018 when I moved to another country. And I still maintain contact with a lot of wonderful people working there.
Which excludes him from being a pocket oligarch... how exactly?
I don't know if Arkady is a good or bad person, but I know that he's one of the people dependent on the Putin's government to protect them.
Supporting Russian residents, that are "apolitical" has forever been a bad thing. As someone whose entire family is from Russia and most are still there - it would be weird of me to say that supporting Russia is unethical.
Condemning Yandex, however, is completely ethical... it also has nothing to do with people still working there... though now I will gladly condemn anyone still working for Yandex.
And I stand by my words - management is loyalists. Loyalists can stop being loyalists. They can be pro-Putin pre Feb 24, and I have a few of those in my own family.
Would you give examples of this protection? Or the source of your knowledge.
There is a clear definition of "oligarch" in Russia (which does not match the actual meaning of the word in English. See wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_oligarchs). In no way Volozh matches it.
> Condemning Yandex, however, is completely ethical... it also has nothing to do with people still working there... though now I will gladly condemn anyone still working for Yandex.
I see your point. And I disagree with it. I don't think I will be able to convince you that you are wrong in this thread though. But at least I can point out where your facts (about Volozh) are wrong.
Yandex has created a news aggregation service that worked flawlessly and has been most internet users news site go to in 2011, but after massive protests yandex was "forced" to turn that service into a blatant propaganda machine. And yet Yandex decided to fully support Russian government and keep being russian, focus their attention on different kinds of russian market, and almost didn't try to expand on foreign markets(that would free them from government grip)
Now, of course, being a democracy and not being run aby a single party, we don't send people off to "work camps", but people losing their jobs for off-handed comments is not unusual. Oh, you made a joke that was acceptable 10 years ago and now it's not seen as okay? Go repent, sinner!
Also, because there is an active war, in your case, the repercussions are amplified, but we'd likely see similar things if we were in an active war instead and only received opinions would be allowed. Even as it is, if someone inexplicably swallows Russian propaganda and critiques the other side, these people get sent to their online purgatory.
You are just rich Westerners who love to downplay our struggle just to make yourselves victims.
I'm not equivocating them --what is happening there is monstrous, as is what's happening to a lesser degree in China and other places, and we are no way there. But the setting of narrative is the same. They are using narrative to achieve different goals. However, the tool is propaganda exerted by undemocratic institutions.
I think we agree it's a dangerous tool that can be leveraged to do bad things. They are being used for bad things in Russia, we're not leveraging this tool for this purpose --but that does not prevent it from being used in the future for a bad purpose.
Along with crackdown on media it created a narrative where you have a strata that must have their rights removed and be hated by society. First it were "terrorists" and then to a different degree "opposition", "journalists", "LGBT", foreigners and Ukrainians.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
Think about western oil companies and several wars in the middle east. Those companies actually lobbied for conflict in some cases.
> the US government forbade the reporting of military personnel coffins returning from the war zone, and news sources complied
And there a democracy died. (again)
> What doesn't happen everywhere and every time is a rogue nation attacking their neighbors and killing civilians using laughable pretexts while the real goal is to take control of a very resourceful and industrialized area (Donbas) to be used to help the already poor Russian economy.
This is one side of the story. The Ukrainian side. There is another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part of the Ukrainian population was silenced. Before Maidan 2014 the biggest party was pro-Russian (30%) and after Maidan they were forbidden to exist. The people of the Donbas have been terrorized by Ukrainian military. Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).
> The enemy is the Russian government and the rich oligarchy behind it
Same with the Iraq wars, Libya, Vietnam, Afganistan and the US. Let call out all oppressors.
But then the Kiev government since 2014 also needs to be called out for the atrocities on the Donbas.
Fiction. Silenced how? They are in parliament, and until recently Russia-sponsored TV propaganda outlets were on the air throughtout Ukraine.
>Before Maidan 2014 the biggest party was pro-Russian (30%) and after Maidan they were forbidden to exist.
More fiction. Party of Regions existed after Yanukovych fled and merged into another pro-Russia outfit in 2016.
>The people of the Donbas have been terrorized by Ukrainian military.
16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people were living in peace.
But goodie goodie, Russia has come to liberate them, and is now murdering thousands with indiscriminate bombings, to say nothing of the mass executions, rapes and so on.
>Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).
This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps.
And how many were bombed by their own government 2014-2019? I get the impression they are still pissed about that.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-kills-11-dem...
Everyone with an interest in this conflict should be searching on DuckDuckGo with their date range set to 2021 at the latest. Western persectives on Zelensky (-2021), perspectives on the conflict in the east (2014-2016), or the really good stuff is Western experts warning about the risks of NATO expansion (set your date range 2000-2010).
The statement above with civilian deaths being in low double digits in 2021 is correct as the conflict has reached the status quo which had a good chance of being resolved politically.
Whatever our stance on the reason behind the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is, we seem to agree that it was pretty bad in 2014-2019 and it has been relatively low-key in 2019(Zelenskiy got elected) and on. Any civilian deaths are terrible, but to put things in perspective: more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the conflict.
So any reasoning of Russia attacking Ukraine, flattening cities, destroying civilian buildings as being caused by a conflict in DNR/LNR is pure Russian propaganda.
Traffic related deaths should not be underestimated, they are more common than people think. In fact, so far more civilians have died in car accidents in Ukraine (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...) than in the conflict (using statistics by the UN https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042).
Although I personally don't understand the point of this argument. If "only" 40 people die then it's somehow ok but if 1000 die then military action is suddenly justifiable?
Well, that makes not a lick of sense. A war took place 8 years ago, mostly died down, people lived in relative peace, and now Russia starts a war of aggression on a whole new scale, rains death from the air, unleashes its troops to commit mass murder, takes thousands of civilian lives because "they are still pissed about that"?
And pissed about what? Its own actions? Russia instigated a war in 2014 by creating a proxy army out of thin air (and funding, arming and manning it with its own soldiers), then just straight up invaded in August of 2014 with its own regular forces. They routinely bombed civilian areas without any regard for the civilians still in them, used civilians as human shields, positioned MRLS launchers inside apartment blocks, etc.
I don't know what happened in the airstrike you brought up, except to say that by July 2014 Ukrainian air force wasn't used much due to Russians bringing in their SAM systems, such as the Buk that shot down MH-17 just two days after this article. Especially in 2014, Ukrainian army was a rag-tag outfit using Soviet-era tactics, and they did occasionally hit civilian areas in situations when a more modern army would be able to avoid it. There were instances where you can say they tactics did not sufficiently account for civilians. There were many more instances where Russia proxies used civilians as shields with success, however, and the Ukrainian military showed restraint.
Either way, at the end of the day the blame for wars of aggression has to lie with the aggressor, not the victim that's defending itself. This was true in 2014, and it's sure as fuck true in 2022.
Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion" clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should have veto powers over which defensive alliances its democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's not much there left to discuss.
Russia now a "fascist dictatorship"? Hmm...
What about a western democracy (US) that claims "veto powers over which defensive alliances its" neighour (Cuba) has? But than it is different, right, when it is Nato, and it has scared it's population shitless for "the communists". Then it is allowed to invade... Yeah right.
To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba: you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad agressor's "security needs".
>To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba: you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad agressor's "security needs".
Except the US did not invade Cuba, did not bomb thousands of civilians into ashes, did not murder every male citizen of a small town before retreating from it, etc.
Hey, come to think of it, you know who did that last part in Cuba? The Cuban dictatorship. Thousands of political prisoners have been murdered since 1959. I wonder if anyone polled them on which defensive alliance Cuba ought to join before putting a bullet into their head.
I really liked your comment:
>This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover' far-right camps.
I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians)
It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).
No. It's fiction, because it's not true and completely fabricated. I mean... for years I was told by Russian TV that I am persecuted and discriminated in Lithuania - I'm ethnically Russian from Lithuania. Which is complete BS. They told me that Lithuanians were Nazi collaborators and all resistance to Soviet occupation was just Nazis. Which is a blatant lie.
So when I say that nothing that Russian propaganda says is true - I actually mean that not a single word is to be een remotely trusted.
> I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians)
In Lithuania we had a whole scandal, of a Russian school sending kids to a summer camp in Russia. Where they were trained to use guns and taught that Soviet Union was great and Lithuanians are Nazis.
Also - Москаляку на гиляку - doesn't translate "hang", it's Send the Russian(singular) to the guillotine.
>It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).
The attitude in Ukraine towards Nazism is bad. I mean... Nationalists didn't even get 2% in the last elections, not to mention complete lack of Nazis.
That is, of course, incorrect, but very telling. Willing victims of Russian propaganda use this line all the time. In fact, very often there is no other side, because facts exist.
>I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children were taught to kill Russians and yell "Москаляку на гиляку" (hang up the Russians)
You're (pretend-) surprised that a country suffering from an invasion teaches its children to hate and wish to harm the invaders? If you think that's bad, I got news for you, champ. It is now officially quite legal to put an invading moskalyaka onto that tree branch right now, or take them out in more modern ways. Ukrainians are allowed to fight against the occupying force using any means necessary, and they do. Not only is there nothing wrong with killing an invader who attacks your home and murders your neighbours, it is a noble and just thing to do.
>It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't happen everywhere).
Nazi Germany and Zigist Russia indeed doesn't happen everywhere, only in places where the ruling despot becomes a deluded fascist, drunk on his own power and trying to pass his own ignorant mis-understanding of history as reality.
I can't imagine the level of your ignorance about how receptive children are and what monsters will ultimately grow as a result of such training.
what about "Москаляку на гиляку", i'm sorry, but I'm very far from a clear understanding of this kind of statements, while you seem to demonstrate a high level of awareness.
>I can't imagine the level of your ignorance about how receptive children are and what monsters will ultimately grow as a result of such training.
These children will grow up as people who understand that being willing to kill invaders and aggressors is a prerequisite for freedom.
>what about "Москаляку на гиляку", i'm sorry, but I'm very far from a clear understanding of this kind of statements, while you seem to demonstrate a high level of awareness.
It's an archaic phrase that simply means invaders from Russia ought to be strung up. No one really uses it these days, a much more relevant 21st century equivalent is "пали русню в танчиках". They're rather heavy and burn well, so why strain your back, you know?
Теперь же благодаря таким, как ты, я отлично понимаю, что всё сделано правильно, и дальше откладывать было просто нельзя. С вами мир построишь, с мыслями о том, как вы будете москалей вешать и сжигать в танках, ага. Соседей, как ты пишешь, на деревьях вешать, это что в голове надо иметь?
Было, было уже такое, великая германия, арии, очистить землю! Гнали до Берлина.
It shouldn't have to be spelled out, but of course the best way to ensure "neighbours" don't get burnt inside tanks or strung up on Ukrainian trees is for them to stay the fuck away from Ukrainian trees, and to keep their tanks well clear of Ukraine.
not back then, but they banned them in March during the war.
> Kiev government since 2014 also needs to be called out for the atrocities on the Donbas
1. Donbas separatists (backed by Russia + actual Russian forces) started the conflict. 2. Why didn't Russia just clear out Donbas/Luhansk republics instead of the whole of Ukraine?
I hope you live in Russia, it's perfect for you.
Before or after the pro-Russian political party was forbidden? Let's assume people in Donbas voted that a lot, would seperatism be such a weird thing for them?
2. Why didn't Russia just clear out Donbas/Luhansk republics instead of the whole of Ukraine?
I dont know the Russian military's strategy decisions. But I think we can all agree the focus of this war is on the Donbas. The approach to Kiev seems to have been a diversion. Some expect a major push to Kiev in the coming weeks; some expect the peace deal (the Russian demands been pretty clear from the start) to be signed right before Kiev gets taken.
Do you think having a potential traitor party during war is good?
Where there many pro German parties during WW2 in countries that it attacked?
Please tell me how was Czeczen separatists treated in Russia? If Russia is so for separations of other nations let their own republics do the same.
If the biggest party before Maidan (30%) is forbidden as a "traitor party", can it be really called as such? Or was Ukraine before Maidan openly pro-Russian, and was the Kiev regime the traitors?
> Please tell me how was Czeczen separatists treated in Russia?
I cannot agree more. Not always separatists are allowed to separate. Even Spain had a episode of that recently.
Though, the pro-Russian crowd in Ukraine feels somewhat Russian, and Russia is sympathetic to them. If the Czeczens were entically chinese, their faith may also've been different.
BTW. If your president runs to another country and that country comes back with and army, what do you do? Oh, and before that that same president begs that other country to invade and bring peace. (and prime minister also fleds to that invading country, just before the invasion). Even Party of Regions removed Yanukovych from his members.
For westerners: in Ukraine one could have a special "note" that allowed voting in any "voting office" - this should be used only in special cases when you are not sure where you will be during the voting (normally you are assigned to vote in your home region). As one might guess it was used to do some shenanigans, like a bunch of miners from eastern parts where being driven to many votes with those special notes. No one checked if given person voted once, or ten times. And there were many buses with such people.
And Russia really cares about Russophiles, they made two regions separate from Georgia in 2008, and they did the same in Ukraine in 2014. Coincidentally it was at the time both of those countries started taking a Western turn (speaking about EU and NATO membership).
-> Russian - speaking Ukrainians want to join RF
-> Symmetry in action between Ukraine and Russia (we do bad things, but they do them too)
-> Ukrainians are nazis
These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.
>>These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-...
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms...
https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov... Here's a choice quote from this article: “Ukraine should be for Ukrainians,” Lemko said. “We don’t need the European idea of multicultural extremism here. Ukraine must protect its cultural and ethnic integrity.”
I'm sure Mr Lemko from Canada was actually a double agent planted by Putin... /sarc
A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true than when its spewed by Russian propaganda machine
Read Bellingcat's coverage of the problem from 2019: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/11/ukr...
Azov members have close access to major Ukrainian politicians, including Arsen Avakov, the (now-former) Interior Minister.
That does not negate the fact that these right-wing organizations, including "Right Sector" had negligible popular support and won exactly 0 seats in Verhovna Rada.
Again a very poor reason to invade a neighboring country
It is like complaining that a general has access to any Ministry.
But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending weapons. And so on.
Sure, but there is a big gulf between "Ukrainian Nazis are Kremlin misinformation" and "We recognize some of your people are morally questionable but still desire to arm/equip you in the justified defense of your homeland."
We used to be much more honest with ourselves when we were getting in bed with useful bastards (Werner von Braun running our space program and Eric von Manstein "advising" the post-war Bundeswehr are two of my favorites). Messaging has devolved into a very simplistic good/bad binary model when reality is much more grey.
They also enjoy widespread financial support by companies associated with Kremlin all over the world especially if they are viable candidates on European elections.
This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If they don't they are Nazi.
Very true. The leader of Wagner, Russia's infamous private military contractor, has SS lightning bolts tatooed on his neck. If it weren't for innocent civilians dying, it would easily be a war where we shouldn't care which variety of asshole loses.
https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst...
You're trying to derail this, by providing links that aren't in direct contradiction to the statements.
That basically sums up Russia in 2022. Pure unadulterated fascism borne out of delusions of grandeur and rewriting of history, its own and that of its neighbours.
> Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).
I think it would behoove you to actually link to this. It's hard to tell from context whether you're claiming that the Ukrainian government is engaging in neo-Nazi education (this would be extraordinary) or whether some neo-Nazis in Ukraine are doing so (this would be upsetting, but not particularly surprising for Eastern Europe in general).
The paramilitary group which organized the camp was officially integrated into the Ukrainian National Guard. One of its members recently joined Zelensky in addressing the Greek parliament: https://greekreporter.com/2022/04/07/greek-azov-fighter-zele...
The west is so quick to condemn Russia, where the west has been warring all over the place with less good reasons to invaded that Russia. Keep in mind that: there are many Russians is Ukra, Russians were marginalized in Ukra especially since 2014, Russia is next to Ukra (unlike the middle east to say the US) so they have reasons to protect their safety, Ukra got Crimea during USSR times from Russia, and Putin made clear demands of what is needed for the war to be over (not part of any block, accept Crimea is Russia, Donbas gains autonomy).
This is a much more understandable invasion to me than Iraq 1+2, Libya, Syria, Afganistan and Vietnam.
> I think it would behoove you to actually link to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw
> It's hard to tell from context whether you're claiming that the Ukrainian government is engaging in neo-Nazi education (this would be extraordinary) or whether some neo-Nazis in Ukraine are doing so (this would be upsetting, but not particularly surprising for Eastern Europe in general).
The second. But no crackdown from the central gov't (while it breaks international law) and you see links with the openly nazi Azov battalion everywhere in the training camp.
These so-called safety reasons are Russian propaganda lies as there was 0 reasons for a nuclear-armed Russia to be afraid of Ukrainian military attacking its territories.
Remember, Ukrainian politics have a lifespan of 4 years, so they have to fight to stay in the office. For Russian, their czar is forever, so his illusions of grandeur are lifelong.
Of course that's more "understandable" to you, because the rest of your history is equally misinformed and backwards.
The first step to fixing a problem is naming it. And Russians can't even do that.
2. Ukrainian forces in 2014-2015 attacked armed forces of separatists and Russian troops, civilians never were the target. More than a million people left separatist republics for Ukraine, why would they do that if they were terrorized?
3. There are training camps for youth in Ukraine, which are funded by political organizations. They are not “Nazi”, similar things exist in Russia as well - like Yunarmiya for example.
BTW today is day 55 of the war in Ukraine. 55 days it's not about "sides of the story" it is about Russians bombing and killing Ukrainians. And then denying that.
Stop the war. Then we can talk.
Full stop.
How is this less true from US companies forced to comply with the US govt?
> everything from Russia is a poison pill including open source software.
based on what?
You mention oligarchs - how can it be ruled out that Yandex is directly or indirectly, fully or partly owned, and even directed, by them?
Since 2019 Yandex and the FSB (Federal Security Bureau of Russia, ex-KGB) had reached an agreement where the company would provide the required data without handing over the encryption keys.[0]
Learn more about Russian war crimes & ongoing invasion of Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukrai...
N.B. I'm Ukrainian living in Ukraine. Here is my statement for HN:[1]
+ Verified Ways to Help Ukraine: https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/02/27/verified-ways-to-help...
+ My Patreon: https://patreon.com/app4soft [ Please, DONATE me just right now ]
[0] https://yandex.com/company/press_center/press_releases/2022/...
Edit: This report appears to bear out that the sanctions forced him to resign pretty-much-directly, as the company does business in Europe, and the sanctions prevent him from doing business in Europe: https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/yandex-deputy-ceo...
essentially they’re being held hostage, either they comply or the government will “nationalize” them and appoint managers who will
I’m shocked at the level of callousness some are displaying.
I can think of one very powerful country doing exactly that for over half a century. Hope we're all collectively raging against anything coming from that country.
My comment does not imply in pro russianism in any way. They are the aggressors. I hate that I have to write this disclaimer.
The war is an unjustified aggression. It is great that Ukraine has been getting international sympathy and support. It would be great if we all had a similar response in the many other comparable cases that unfortunately happened in the past.
I think we're all getting real tired of this line. This is, what, the 3rd time that place has collapsed in the last 100 years? This is a pattern. And I think it's time to start holding the Russian people accountable for it.
Similar thinking was part of WW2 propaganda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2YenLG_rQ (Fun fact: script written by Dr. Seuss.)
I really would like a citation here.
The burden of the proof is on yours, I've never ever stated the Russian economy was "A-OK". I'm equally surprised by your first comment, and the fact you pull this out of nowhere with that much of a confidence.
Even middle class people safely return from abroad (Istanbul, Dubai, Yerevan) where they expected to stay while economy crashed but it didn't.
Groceries cost pretty much the same, restaurants work, people don't get fired, you can even fly on a vacation to Turkey.
This is very sad because it seems that nobody will learn a lesson and Russians will watch war they allowed to happen like a thrilling TV show where they are the good guys.
Edit: Can’t reply, but every country takes steps to manage its currency’s value. That’s the status quo.
I've got family and friends in Russia, most of them highly educated and with access to international news and all. War support is pretty strong through all social strata. (also backed by independent pollsters like levada, if you want to look at data).
Also, people are scared they will get fired from their government jobs or worse if they voice opposition.
About half the Russians don't support the war. I hope the conflict ends soon.
I don't think your comparison really says anything interesting, apart from your bias against rural Americans.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/03/26...
All "polls and statistics" you see are basically fabricated by the government, either directly, or by induced fear.
While Putin might have high rating in the polls, his party United Russia could win only 50% of seats in Moscow Parliament in 2019 (after most popular independent candidates were not allowed to be in the ballot). Furthermore, members of United Russia nominated as independent candidates to hide their party affiliation. If you believe that only ten thousands people are against the government then how can you explain this?
Another example is that Navalny was denied to register a political party for many years. If he has only 1% or 2% of supporters, as propaganda claims, why deny registering a party? Let him take part in election and get his deserved 1% with a disgrace (by the way, in 2013 Moscow Mayor election he got 27% of votes and obviously that was the last election he was allowed to take part in).
So from the above facts I can conclude that Putin's support is not absolute. There are reasons why he doesn't allow to hold fair elections, why protests are not allowed, why all major mass media are controlled by the government and Internet is censored. You don't need this with true 80% voter support.
Well, when Levada's polls showed overwhelming support for the annexation among Crimeans (and even growing support from Crimean Tatars) everybody was telling that Russian polls are rigged by Russian government and Crimeans were afraid to voice their true opinions. Now you are ready to believe all Russian polls if they help you demonize ordinary Russians.
A poll using so called 'differential privacy' approach gives about 55% support for the war [0] and that's something considering that all tv channels and lots of government-sponsored internet news sites are spewing government propaganda and all independent media are terminated and blocked on the internet. That's about as much as the share of Americans supporting the second Iraq war while having access to the free media. [1]
Personally, I immediately decline to participate in polls despite being approached twice in the last week. Before the war I was happy to tell them that I don't trust Putin, the government, the parliament and everyone else.
Among young or middle-aged educated Russians the support for the war is much lower. Among all my acquaintances only two supported the war when it started.
[0] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/04/06/do-russians-te...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_S...
So mostly people who did not live the USSR…
I think you read intent into my post that isn't there. I don't demonize Russians now, didn't demonize them in 2014 and I very much did believe polls in 2014 because if you had any idea about Russia or Crimea you knew that the annexation would be celebrated and rally support and an intense amount of national pride.
55% and comparisons to Iraq seem about right, but that war had authentic support for many years, had entire schools of foreign policy backing it, and hawks exist along the entire spectrum, from coastal intellectuals to flyover country.
you actually did have the same discussions back then. "It's the deep state and MI-complex running everything, all Americans hate war!". Like, no lol. liberal twenty-something college students did, many others were on board.
Do they publish how many of respondents refused to talk? I saw information that majority of people refuse to answer questions about war. So it might be that the results are based mostly on opinions of people who agree to talk.
I believe an ordinary person against the war yet unwilling to get jailed for this opinion won't just refuse to talk, they would say they totally support their government although they actually totally hate it and wish it to collapse ASAP and the top officials to die in torment.
Imagine you traveled to China or DPRK and some weird local emerged to ask how do you like the policies of their "great leader"? Would you take the risk of being sincere? I bet most people would say "fantastic!" and hurry away.
Nobody risks a chance of being "tested" by FSB or "anti-extremist" operative. The risk is huge from being put on control to personal harrassment by unmarked men spray painting "Z" and "traitor" on your door.
The only people who actually take a chance are those who say "we support special operation" anyway.
https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/sites/default/files/2022-0...
Now anti-Putin people are more likely to refuse to participate in a poll out of fear while pro-Putin people are mobilized by mass media and eager to voice their support.
Genuinely interested. For the record, I'm vehemently against, so I'd like to understand how on earth another conclusion can be arrived at.
Thanks,
There are no war supporters among people I know though, everyone has their own bubble.
2. Because they think that Ukrainian government relies on nazis and supports nazis. I understand that west does not really care about nazis, but for Russians it's a particularly hard topic, because almost every family in Russia lost one or more men in WW2.
3. They think that Ukrainian population is brain washed to foster hate against Russia and Russians. It's dangerous to have such a country on your border.
4. They don't really think that most Ukrainians are separate nation. They consider them generally Russians which were separated by historical accidents. And they want to unite with them.
1) Right Sector - Ukrainian nationalist neo-nazi political party in Ukrainian parliamentary
2) Azov Detachment - neo-Nazi unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, who participated in wars in Donbass
3) Lots of streets are named after Stepan Bandera, for example Stepan Bandera Avenue in Kyiv, who was a leader of Ukrainian ultranationalists and cooperated with Nazi Germany in 1941 against USSR
2) Azov battalion - indeed had been formed with a few neo-Nazis, when Ukraine was literally is complete disarray. However it's very much an overblown issue. The irony is that the people they were fighting against were Russian neo-Nazis - Rusich battalion is neo-Nazi.
2a) Ukraine actually held accountable another neo-nazi battalion for their war crimes. And Russian propaganda is calling anyone "Azov battalion".
3) Yes, there's a few anti-soviet activists that are branded as Nazis. But to point to Bandera, that spent most of the war in a concentration camp(1941-43?), is a little ignorant. There's a however - these memorials to Bandera have not had any affect on Nazi support in today's Ukraine.
All other information I took from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector "Right Sector's political ideology has been described as right-wing, hardline right-wing nationalist, neo-fascist, or neo-Nazi..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion The Azov Battalion has been described as a far-right militia, with connections to neo-Nazism and members wearing neo-Nazi and SS symbols and regalia, and expressing neo-Nazi views. The group's insignia features the Wolfsangel, a German heraldic charge inspired by historic wolf traps adopted by the Nazi Party and by WW2 German military units.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera Stepan Andriyovych Bandera was a Ukrainian politician, Nazi collaborator and theorist of the militant wing of the far-right Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and a leader and ideologist of Ukrainian ultranationalists known for his involvement in terrorist activities.
Azov has 900 members. Seven years ago, it was estimated 10 - 20 % are "Nazi's". If true, this is 90 - 180 "Nazi's" in a population of about 40 million. I thank you for pointing this out, and showing everyone that the justification of rape, murder, and execution of Ukrainian women and children is based on Kremlin propaganda.
The current actions of the Russians in Ukraine show and prove that Russia has a much bigger problem with Nazi-esque behaviours.
In glorious Soviet times Russians ruled 16 countries (including Ukraine) that were parts of USSR, had puppet governments in Eastern Europe and friendly governments in Middle Asia and Africa (and by the way Russian Empire was even larger and included territories of modern Poland and Finland). Traitor Gorbachev surrended Eastern Germany and East European countries to America, and traitor Yeltsin (first President of Russia) helped to disintegrate USSR. Many ex-USSR countries were lured into NATO and turned against Russia. Due to Yeltsin following malignant American advices, Russian economy has collapsed, crime rate has raised, and oligarchs have stolen valuable assets, leaving people in poverty.
America also defeated many former Russian allies, like Yugoslavia. Then America refused to stop NATO expansion to the East.
So some people might want a revanche. They want Russia to be strong, victorous and glorious and not a third-world country surrounded by American bases preparing to make a final blow. And if that is not possible, at least they want to stop NATO from expanding to the East.
Also, in Ukraine there are Russian people and some believe that they are treated there unfairly. For example, they are not taught Russian language at school, there is no Russian television and so on. Obviously, Russia must protect them.
Also, propaganda doesn't call it a "war". It is actually illegal to call it a war. It is a "special military operation" for liberation of Ukranian people from Nazis and American influence. As Putin stated, Russia doesn't plan to occupy Ukranian territories.
Russia had no choice and no other means to prevent a big war planned by the West, propaganda says.
So there might be people who believe propaganda. If they have no other sources of information, what should they think?
Also, here are some quotes from a pro-government news agency TASS. Hope they give an idea how propaganda portrays the situation around Ukraine:
> the majority of Russian respondents - 88% - agreed that there are nazist organizations in Ukraine that are a threat to Russia ... 70% of respondents stated that Unkrainian government supports such nazist organizations ... According to the results of the poll, most respondents expect that special military operation will end with a trial of Ukranian nazis for commited crimes. [1]
> Medinsky (presidential aide) : The crimes commited by Ukranian government against Russian people in Ukraine became a challenge for Russia ... Russia has to protect peaceful civilians, its compatriots, who were assaulted, killed, threatened... [2]
> Russian senator Ekaterina Altabaeva: one cannot exclude Russia from world politics, and current special operation for denazification of thе country and protection of Russian-speaking citizens affirms a fateful role that Russia has always played in the world history ... at the end of 18th century not a single gun in Europe was allowed to fire without Russia's permission... [3]
And here is quote from other news agency:
> Military operation in Donbass is not a beginning of a war, but an attempt to prevent a global war, said spokeswoman of Ministry of Foreign Affairs ... also, it is an ending of the war that has been continuing for 8 years. [4]
So if someone wants to understand what an average Russian sees in the news or in social networks or on the Yandex frontpage, try reading sites like TASS or Interfax Russia, or 1tv.
[1] https://tass.ru/obschestvo/14412735
[2] https://tass.ru/politika/14414033
There is no "mainstream media" left in Russia after they closed Echo Moscow and TVRain (Doschd).
Propaganda actually works, that's why dictatorships keep using that playbook.
The point is that it's pointless to try to quantify how many fell victim to propaganda. There is no meaningful way to assess it, since all metrics you'll try to use are under control of a totalitarian state that controls every single statistic.
Mainstream doesn't mean a particular political affiliation or even objectivity. It just means the most widely referred to.
Dozhd and Echo Moskvy were never "mainstream", quite the opposite.