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Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by h2odragon on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:18AM (#30272256)
Not just journalists, but politicians, priests, etc. The filtered bubble of their society becomes the pole star of their existence, and the rest of the world gets devalued.

Used to be, near any event that generates news coverage, there would be a bar where the journalists hung out. Listening to the conversations there would tell you what the story was going to be, as well as how it differed from the facts. The audience that mattered was the rest of the media clique; the actual paying "audience" was the chum that everyone took for granted.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by ajsnigrutin on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:24AM (#30272320)
Yep, just look at the covid lockdowns and superstars posting crying videos, wanting sympathy from regular people, for being locked in ther multimillion dollar villas with tennis courts and swimming pools.

Bubbles are bad... but if you don't want to escape from one by yourself, you'll stay there forever, your bubble won't move by itself.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by mc32 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:22AM (#30272920)
What happened to the wealthy?

They used to keep these things amongst themselves rather than announce everything to the public.

They used to use hidden signals of wealth to show themselves to each other but not reveal themselves to the public —but now it’s a contest for crass popularity.

I guess Robin Leach opened the crack and Instagram et al opened the floodgates. It’s a bit pathetic.

What the hell happened to the “millionaire next door” types? Someone who had wealth but you’d never know it?

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:45AM (#30273179)
> They used to keep these things amongst themselves rather than announce everything to the public.

When did this happen? Do you mean the gilded age where the wealthy had giant, showy mansions built now used for various museums, or funded massive libraries and stuff in their name? Do you mean when the wealthy hung up painted portraits of themselves everywhere? Do you mean when the wealthy were building literal castles and starting literal wars on their name? Do you mean when royalty proclaimed to be a royal was to be divine??

I don’t think the wealthy have ever stfu’d about their money…

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by t-3 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:45AM (#30273169)
> What the hell happened to the “millionaire next door” types? Someone who had wealth but you’d never know it?

They're still around, and people still don't know it. Some of those older people you see working at the grocery store have been "retired" from executive positions and need something to do until they reach retirement age. Lots of diligent people working normal jobs and without vices manage to become quite wealthy while living unremarkable lives.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by belval on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:02AM (#30274233)
These people will always be interesting to me. They "won" the game, they accumulated wealth and made a comfortable life for themselves. Yet they usually live frugally and die with several millions just because they never actually spent the money.

Some of my relatives were like that. Lots of money in the banks, 70 years old, yet his wife would chastise him for buying a small $16k Mazda truck to replace his +10 years old $12k Ford truck.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by horsawlarway on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:08PM (#30275067)
The mindset that "wins" the game (as you put it) is the same mindset that carefully considers whether a 16k truck is really worth the expense.

If you start inflating expenses "because you have money", you don't become the old guy with lots of money in the bank.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Sebb767 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:38PM (#30282500)
The reason most people want to be rich is to have a good lifestyle. Sure, lifestyle inflation is a thing and you want to have money in the bank for emergency and retirement, but being the old guy with lots of money is no better than being the old guy with a solid retirement fund if you're just going to sit on the money.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by horsawlarway on Thursday February 10, 2022 @10:18AM (#30287306)
> but being the old guy with lots of money is no better than being the old guy with a solid retirement fund if you're just going to sit on the money.

I'm confused - those are the same person.

Most "millionaire next door" types are not people who suddenly had a million dropped into their account.

They're the people who routinely make good choices with their money. That includes putting it in a diversified investment portfolio and taking full advantage of all the legal ways to reduce expenses (of which - retirements accounts are a great option - the tax savings you get filling your 401k compound to quite a nice bit of cash over a 40 year timeline, not even mentioning the principle you contributed).

So in this case - I'm with the guys wife: He's 70 already, what's he really going to be using that truck for? It sure isn't going to be heavy labor (he's 70). Couldn't a smaller more efficient car have done the same job? And it's a 16k truck - so it's either incredibly low trim and lightly used, or nice but heavily used (because 16k is dirt fucking cheap for a decent truck unless it's 10+ years old).

So is she nagging because he spent 16k, or because he spent 16k on something that's not really practical for that point in their life? I'd bet money it's the later.

Not even mentioning - a 70 year old might easily live another 25 years. Blowing all your savings now is a terrible call if you need long term care later in life (you want to talk about expensive, long term care makes that 16k truck look like a match box car)

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Sebb767 on Thursday February 10, 2022 @11:16AM (#30288339)
Don't get me wrong - if you're perfectly happy with your lifestyle despite spending very little money, that's absolutely okay. My point is, you can not just overspend, you can also oversave - if you have the money to make your life better (really better, not wasting-money-better), you're on the wrong side of this.

That larger truck might be a waste of money, but it might also be easier to get into, save fuel and keep you safe in the case of a crash. Now, most people are clearly on the overspending side of things, but a large pile of cash won't make your corpse more comfortable either.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by horsawlarway on Thursday February 10, 2022 @12:42PM (#30289799)
Sure - and you can get hit by a bus tomorrow, making the whole discussion a moot point.

That doesn't change the fact that the people who end up in the situation the OP was referring to (decent amount of capital late in their lives) tend to be the same people who have decided that they can, in fact, live a comfortable life without having to spend a ton of money. They aren't always right, but my point is that folks without that mindset aren't the ones in that position later (at least not usually).

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by randomopining on Thursday February 10, 2022 @09:12PM (#30295965)
What's the point though. You just skimped your whole live to end up old and with a bunch of abstract "wealth".

Best way to do it is to buy exactly what will fulfill you, and not a cent more. Maybe that 3 week trip to ___ will, maybe the expensive dinner won't. Etc.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by horsawlarway on Sunday February 13, 2022 @10:59AM (#30322601)
I think you're implying a value judgement I'm not making.

Who's to say they think they're skimping?

Who's to say that they didn't buy exactly what fulfilled them, and it was only 20% of their take-home pay, so they just shoved the rest of it into investments?

Basically - money certainly matters, but only to a point. Once you're fairly comfortable satisfying your genuine needs (food, clothing, shelter, time) more money isn't really going to change how you feel.

It's a mental trap to assume that happiness can be bought, if only you had a bit more money. It leads to empty, hollow, soulless people.

---

> Best way to do it is to buy exactly what will fulfill you

My advice? Buying things will never fulfill you. Real fulfillment isn't about having the next shiny ____.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy that thing, but you should be doing it with intention - How does this fit into my life? What uses do I have for it? Who will I share it with?

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by randomopining on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @10:10AM (#30347432)
No I think we are on the same page. I'm just assuming these are "excessively frugal" type people. Agree 100% that money only matters to a point. I've traveled to many places, and had a few "luxury" type experiences and I'm certain that the juice isn't worth the squeeze for that type of stuff.

I would say the main two goals would be to: have enough money to work when/on what you want (this could be like 500k), and the long term goal is have enough money to make a bigger impact on a community or even the world (prob like 10 mil - 1 bil).

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by zozbot234 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:28AM (#30274570)
That's how "new money" turns into "old money". Low time preference on a generational scale is all it takes.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by oh_sigh on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @01:23PM (#30276177)
Only if you inculcated the same standards into your children, which is definitely not a given. If you were just a miser and your children didn't understand your reasoning, I would expect them to blow their entire inheritance and leave a pittance to their children.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by tejohnso on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @01:47PM (#30276640)
Couldn't this be addressed with some kind of legal entity like a generational trust where the children don't have direct access to the principle?
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by oh_sigh on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @02:03PM (#30276893)
Yes, absolutely, and it would be a great idea if you don't trust the financial competence of your beneficiaries, but you want them to have access to your assets. The problem is that those trusts may be viewed as overly restrictive or unnecessarily burdensome to the beneficiaries and so may not be created in the first place. IE beneficiary needs $X for a rational business investment, but can only get $X/4 out of the trust within the timeframe, even though 1000*$X in total is in the trust.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @02:46PM (#30277452)
> IE beneficiary needs $X for a rational business investment, but can only get $X/4 out of the trust within the timeframe, even though 1000*$X in total is in the trust.

I mean, the trust can (usually) invest money without it being considered a distribution. I suspect that happens a lot based on the trustifarians I see in capital-intensive businesses and crushing it (due to below-market cost of capital).

I feel bad for their competitors having to prove themselves to a bank or other arms-length financier.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by hackerfromthefu on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:04PM (#30281955)
Often happens over three generations not two
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by retrac on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:44AM (#30273164)
I certainly agree society has gotten a lot more ostentatious, to the negative. But there's still a bit of a "kids these days" vibe to this comment; people (by which I mean the long-established aristocrats) have been decrying the tasteless, crass vulgarity of the nouveau riche since at least the late Roman Republic.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by saltminer on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:33PM (#30275394)
Anyone who read The Great Gatsby in high school should be familiar with the disdain for the nouveau rich amongst old money. The movie Caddyshack also does a good job at depicting this.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by tsunamifury on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:39AM (#30273891)
While mostly being angry they can’t display the crassness of the new even richer class.

The Guilded Age on HBO right now is a great show about this.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by dionidium on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:58AM (#30273338)
> What the hell happened to the “millionaire next door” types? Someone who had wealth but you’d never know it?

Remember your audience here. You're surrounded by them.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Frost1x on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:35PM (#30275427)
I think you have a valid point, although I think it should probably be the "decimillionaire next door" to keep up with inflation and retain its original meaning. This is a case where the floor dropped out and the ceiling is falling, when a "millionaire" doesn't really mean what it meant many years ago.

In 1904, $1M inflation adjusted is $31M now. In 1956, it's $9.9M. Seems to have peeked at 2007/8. The uptick to "billionaire" started around 1982 which is about $2.79M. Words are very discrete bins and usage lag.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Millionaire%2C...

While there is a very valid point that many who frequent this site may be considered millionaires and by some, considered wealthy relative to the median in current times, that isn't to say the median hasn't been falling in terms of the sheer scale of wealth these days.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by pragmatic on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:57PM (#30275769)
I’d rather have a million now than 31 million in 1904.

The quality of life difference isn’t measurable in money.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by munch117 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @02:30PM (#30277264)
You mean deca, not deci.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by wikibob on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:24AM (#30273661)
> What happened to the wealthy? They used to keep these things amongst themselves rather than announce everything to the public.

Still happens.

See this $600 hat which is sold out, used as a wealth signaling mechanism. And also as an aspirational luxury good now that the masses are aware.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/succession-morning-show-luxury-...

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by groby_b on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:51AM (#30274088)
If we even accept the premise (and it's a doubtful one, obscene wealth was always visible), it's worth pointing out that a lot of wealth is generated simply by being in the public eye. Cynically put, the not-wealthy like having a look at the things they'll never have enough to hand over money for it.

As for "millionaire next door", they're still around. The US has 20 million of them. But most of the "next door" wealth is achieved through doing a "normal" job. (I.e. jobs that most other people can relate to, and could possibly achieve working in)

Ostentatious wealth is requiring arbitrage of some form, at scale. Celebrities arbitrage fame. And it's a smart business, because part of their payment is more fame. Hence the "crass popularity" contests. People pay them for that popularity and make them more popular.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by saltminer on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:19PM (#30275211)
There have always been rich people who flaunt their wealth and crave attention, just as there are those who are, as you say, the "millionaires next door". The difference is now, I can easily check in on the lives of the ones who crave attention anywhere in the world. We no longer have "local celebrities" like we used to, as their fame is rarely only covered by the local papers.

People always seem intrigued by the lives of the rich and famous, and tabloids have been milking that for generations. Before the internet, that was the best way to keep up to date on celebrity gossip, and it was a lucrative market (see also: MTV Cribs).

It just seems like the rich are so much worse these days because it's so easy for them to get attention. Some have even turned it into an art form, knowing how effective ragebait is at getting clicks. (Remember Logan Paul's Japanese forest video?) Combine that with the reduction in our media landscape and increase in outlets which just report on drama, many of which get reposted with only minor rewording on more general outlets, and it's much more difficult to escape this stuff today.

All this said, I would agree that the rich generally are worse today, but that's a byproduct of capital coalescing in new forms to lobby for awful laws spurring greater inequality, and it would have happened without the internet. They were also bad in the past, but unless you went out of your way, it was difficult to get a grasp on how wealth multiplies and the horrendous practices of many large corporations. The popularity contest becoming inescapable, on the other hand, is a direct result of our hyper-connected world.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Kye on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:33AM (#30273042)
How would you know they aren't still majority? There were always conspicuously wealthy people, but now there are more wealthy people in general. It's inevitable both the quiet and noisy segments would grow even without other changes.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by DocTomoe on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:32AM (#30273032)
The real wealthy folks still are hush about their capital. The folks you see flinging cash and status around are - and always have been - the nouveau riche.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by mc32 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:40AM (#30273110)
Perhaps but Bezos, Branson, Ma, Musk, etc, aren’t the quietest bunch regarding their monies. We even have those who are wealthy but need to tell us how unwealthylike they live such as Dorsey.

Just be.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by coldtea on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @01:44PM (#30276575)
>Perhaps but Bezos, Branson, Ma, Musk, etc, aren’t the quietest bunch regarding their monies.

Well, those are also crude nouveaux riches. Heck, they even had to somehow work for their money (even those of them that got some hefty support from their parents).

As opposed to several generations of old money.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:01PM (#30274977)
>the nouveau riche

I'm not even sure that many are really rich. I recently read that the average net worth of a Ferrari owner is less than one million pounds and that most Ferraris are financed.

Real wealth is what you don't spend.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by astrange on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @03:23PM (#30277955)
Net worth isn’t a good measure of being rich; high negative net worth means you’re rich too. All the average people are in the middle.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by tonyedgecombe on Thursday February 10, 2022 @10:50AM (#30287865)
Not really, wealth is usually a measure of assets rather than income.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wealth.asp

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by lukas099 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:41PM (#30280429)
Can you explain what you mean by this?
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by astrange on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @06:47PM (#30280502)
Low net worth includes people with $0, but also people worth negative millions because they have a lot of debt. The only way to get that much debt is if you’re rich.

It’s better to look at assets excluding debt. This also shows the problem with student loan relief, which is it mostly benefits dentists.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by coldtea on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @01:44PM (#30276590)
Real wealth is what you get to enjoy.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by newsclues on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:34AM (#30273051)
My theory is that too many of the “wrong” people got rich, so the luxury industry and media worked together to increase consumption and funnel the nouveau rich money to the “right” wealthy people.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by rayiner on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @02:55PM (#30277580)
> What happened to the wealthy?

I wonder the same thing, especially with respect to the lower rung of wealth. I'm shocked at how much of the top 1% views themselves as victims of higher rungs of the top 1% instead of having attitudes commensurate with their wealth, privilege, and social status.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by bitwize on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:33AM (#30273794)
They've been replaced with nouveaux riches who want to show off to their poor friends (and enemies) that they've "made it".

The "millionaire next door" also has low time preference, which is how they made their money. They don't spend extravagantly but reinvest that money into their business, stocks, real estate, etc. That's also why they're stealth rich.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by moffkalast on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:18AM (#30272866)
Bubbles eventually burst, just ask an economist.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by throwaway2037 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:30AM (#30274599)
Australian housing? Not yet. It's been... forever. Never burst in modern times. They even managed to ride the Global Financial Crisis tsunami in 2008. The income-to-sale-price multiplier is simply mind blowing. I do not understand it!

Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-...

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by xxpor on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:49PM (#30279024)
Supply constraints are powerful things
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by ajsnigrutin on Thursday February 10, 2022 @08:26AM (#30285654)
Also hoarding something, that has limited quantity.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by analog31 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:21AM (#30272906)
Computer programmers too. My irony meter went off scale when this article hit HN.

"You tell me where a man gits his corn pone, and I'll tell you what his 'pinions is" -- Mark Twain

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:51PM (#30275652)
Computer programming is a high status, low wage job? I'm not sure about the "high status" part, and I'm even less sure about the "low wage" part. It pays pretty well, even if you're not at a FAANG.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by xxpor on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:51PM (#30279058)
It's somewhat the opposite in fact (not exactly low status, but not on the forefront of a cool job either). It's the wordcel vs shape rotater meme/discourse.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by randomopining on Thursday February 10, 2022 @09:16PM (#30295999)
It's def a low-mid status but high paying job. Nobody cares, they just say "wow you must be smart" and that's it.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by tartoran on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:06PM (#30281165)
What is that meme about?
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by xxpor on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:32PM (#30282472)
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by jseliger on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:44AM (#30273983)
Not just journalists, but politicians, priests, etc

Yes: https://jakeseliger.com/2019/11/19/have-journalists-and-acad.... Journalists, and academics in the humanities, have become more cleric-like.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by tomjakubowski on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @02:49PM (#30277482)
Economists are even more priestlike than humanities professors.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by paulcole on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:03AM (#30272705)
> Used to be, near any event that generates news coverage, there would be a bar where the journalists hung out

Just curious, how old are you and what year do you believe this “used to be” ended?

I’m 40 and my guess is that this time is 25+ years gone by?

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by h2odragon on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:09AM (#30272762)
I'm 49; and i dunno about "ended". Its no longer required to attend a physical place to "cover a story," but I'm sure that bar is still there at every big event.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:30AM (#30274585)
You're confusing (as so many people do, alas) the jobs of "reporter" and "journalist".

The former is a job where you are required to attend a physical place to cover a story, required to talk to people, required to gather facts. Of course, you might do all of these badly, you might even lie about having done them, but that's the structure of the job.

The latter is a job whose name comes from the practice of writing "journals", and has little, if anything to do with reporting. Journalists do not "cover stories", they write about things that are happening, informed by the work of reporters, but also other folk: researchers, essayists (an even less-connected-to-the-story form or journalism), lobbyists, politicians, and yes, their neighbors. They've been around for at least 350 years in European-linked cultures, and probably a lot longer than that if you take a broader view.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:17AM (#30272854)
My understanding (based on some podcasts I’ve heard on) is that journalism has developed journalists not being by in a physical place except at very big events is due to newspapers closing/lack of money. There simply isn’t enough funding to have a well-considered reporter report on a specific subject or region where they then are in a place and regional education to then comment when something major happens. Now national newspapers ship reporters out to major events who simply don’t have the know-how of on the ground context and therefore can come away with drastically different conclusions than the people who actually live there.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by pjc50 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:27AM (#30272985)
It's been replaced with various private whatsapp groups. A surprisingly large amount of UK politics coverage is Laura K and Robert Peston reading out messages they have been sent by various leakers.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Archelaos on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:35AM (#30273057)
I am living near a medium sized city in Germany; here journalists from the local newspaper are very present at events, may they be cultural or political. A few days ago an incident made international headlines. After a few hours the place where the incident happend was full of journalists.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by paulcole on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:40AM (#30273112)
> but I'm sure that bar is still there at every big event.

Why are you sure of this?

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by h2odragon on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:18AM (#30273590)
I believe that where journalists gather, there will be drinking (and other intoxicant consumption). Usually as a herd.

Perhaps the profession changed; my observations are dated.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by curiousllama on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:23AM (#30272311)
Can often see the same thing on Twitter now - it’s cool to see in real time
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by r-zip on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:20AM (#30272896)
I don't know about journalists, but given the idiotic replies to the posts of the computer scientists I follow on Twitter, I'm not sure I blame them for producing content for other top computer scientists.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by curiousllama on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:13AM (#30273527)
One day some rando really will solve P=NP and they'll show you! (Divide by P and N=0 obviously)
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by achenet on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:47AM (#30274031)
Uh... you mean N=1, unless P=0... :p
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by curiousllama on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:12AM (#30274347)
I said what I said
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by hguant on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:54AM (#30272611)
I went to high school with a guy who is big in the self described Left-wing journalist Twitter.

I remember very distinctly watching an article - well, the ideas core to that article - he'd written percolate from New Republic to The Atlantic to The New York Times over a period of about a month. What was interesting was that in his original article, the concepts he presented were presented as radical, and as a thought experiment. By the time it made its way down to the NYT a month later, those same concepts were presented as obvious solutions that "both sides" should agree on as a matter of course, and any disagreement was just intellectual folly.

The conversation about these ideas had already happened on Twitter; NYT was just reporting the score.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by pessimizer on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:24AM (#30272938)
People don't present themselves as extreme. I think what happened is that a lot of people ran this "thought experiment" and it made a lot of sense to them.

edit: The New Republic was passed from a famous racist to a founder of facebook to a Democratic party bagman and banking heir. Characterizing it as an extreme left outlet is bizarre, because at times it wouldn't even count as center-left.

From the first paragraph of wikipedia: "Through the 1980s and 1990s, the magazine incorporated elements of the Third Way and conservatism."

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by hguant on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:12AM (#30273514)
So first of all you're responding to what you want to read, not the actual content of my comment. I said that the friend of mine in question was a self described hard Leftist, and that he was big in leftist oriented Twitter. I made no statement about New Republic...which is in fact a hard left publication. When you were looking at Wikipedia, did you skip the part where they were owned by that guy in the 1980s because it came out that the editors and owner were spies for the USSR, EDIT and they were trying to revamp their image /ENDEDIT? Or the bit about their return to their leftist roots since their sale in 2016?

Furthermore looking at who owned an institution 30-40 years ago doesn't really add any value to the conversation about what they are today.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by groby_b on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:02AM (#30274241)
Dude.

The New Republic isn't a GOP outlet, sure. It might even occasionally slightly hurt centrist sensibilities, which would put it left of the NYT. But if you think that's "hard left", you haven't seen hard left, or even moderate left.

Try something like wsws.org, or The Jacobin. The New Republic isn't remotely that.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:25AM (#30274534)
> I made no statement about New Republic...which is in fact a hard left publication.

What are the actual ends of the spectrum on which you identify the NR's position as "hard left" ?

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by gunfighthacksaw on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @04:16PM (#30278593)
I’ve seen Breitbart comments accusing the AP of being communists.

They’re about as milquetoast neoliberal as you can get, but they typically skew towards diversity and democracy which is probably enough to make you a steenkin pinko to some people.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by ChrisKnott on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:19AM (#30272884)
Can you link these articles? I'd be interested to see this evolution you describe.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by long_time_gone on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @11:43AM (#30274765)
It's the same on both sides. The Hunter Biden "laptop saga" moved from NY Post -> Fox News -> Wall Street Journal.

This was after Fox and WSJ passed on the story initially. Once it got traction from NY Post, they ran with it. Sean Hannity even claimed to have the laptop in his possession. Then he said it was stolen. Then he got it back, but couldn't share any of the juicy details cause his "lawyers wouldn't let him" [1]. They wouldn't even let other news organizations look at the incriminating emails [2].

[1] https://news.yahoo.com/sean-hannity-says-lawyers-wont-020500...

[2] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/here-s-what-h...

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by MisterBastahrd on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @12:30PM (#30275368)
I had a LOL moment when Rudy Giuliani posed with one of the computers on TV, because apparently the Mac guy wasn't smart enough to know the difference between an OSX based Macbook Pro and a Windows based LG.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by codechad on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:56AM (#30272635)
It is interesting to see the overton window slide in real time.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by password4321 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:11AM (#30272780)
I've heard rumors a lot of the grouthink happens as Twitter users share lists of accounts to block and coordinate in private Google Docs.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:12AM (#30272799)
Wouldn’t not witnessing this yourself or similar be a similar kind of groupthink behavior? In an us vs them mentality.
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by password4321 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:24AM (#30272947)
> Wouldn’t not witnessing this yourself or similar be a similar kind of groupthink behavior? In an us vs them mentality.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying... not doing these things is just groupthink in the opposite direction?

Edit: Maybe there's a better word for it: bubble building.

Edit 2: I do believe Twitter fosters the 'us vs them' mentality you mention; I tried to point out only the tip of the iceberg is visible publicly.

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by SamoyedFurFluff on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:39AM (#30273103)
I’m saying that “I heard rumors of X” is the same bubble-type behavior that’s being criticized in the conversation flow just towards an out-group (aka a group on a different social media platform).
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by password4321 on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @09:56AM (#30273303)
Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

How would you recommend initiating a conversation to discuss when 'the actual paying "audience" was the chum that everyone took for granted' but one actually can't 'see the same thing on Twitter' except due to intermittent OPSEC/OSINT failures?

Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by Ekaros on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @10:48AM (#30274037)
I still remember the gamergate... The secret discussions and the amazing width of pushing the same narrative by publishing same story on multiple platforms... Still probably going on in many cliques...
Re:The dangers of high status, low wage jobs by syshum on Wednesday February 09, 2022 @08:33AM (#30272406)
That bar has now been replaced with Twitter, and other social media, but it is hard to listen to the conversations because of the number of voices all speaking at once...... the truth is out there, just hard to find.

"Authoritative Sources" are not the solution either, which is what most social media companies seem to be banking on as the solution to "fake news" but their chosen authority are just as prone to reporting non-sense as some random guy with a blog