News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by blibble on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:23AM (#29981460)
> developer of best-in-class ad-filtering technology found in millions of browsers and products around the world

I must admit, this is pretty funny... there is "ublock" which users are tricked into installing (instead of the real ublock origin), which uses their "acceptable ads"

and people have said that their business model is based on extorting ad companies to pay them to not block their ads

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by happybuy on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:29PM (#29989977)
Yes, Eyeo is a dodgy company that misrepresents their product and how they actually really make money from users & advertisers.

As one of the largest ad blockers around they also try and extinguish any potential competition before it has a chance to establish itself.

When I initially released my ad blocker for the iPhone and Mac – Magic Lasso Adblock (https://www.magiclasso.co/) they attempted to stop its distribution through the Apple App Stores.

They sent legal threats directly to myself and then to Apple claiming that they own the term 'adblock' and demanded that my product stop using that term in any marketing or App Store keywords. This went on for months with them constantly pushing less and less plausible evidence for their ownership of the term.

I eventually told their enforcement loonies to stop contacting me and provided evidence to Apple that their claims are baseless (which meant their claims directly to Apple could also be ignored). They eventually stopped but I can see how their tactics could discourage any new entrants in the space.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by haasted on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:26AM (#29991196)
That's ridiculous. They themselves adopted the Adblock term from the original open source project that they initially derived their product from (http://web.archive.org/web/20090222145638/http://adblockplus...). If any trademark exists for Adblock, it's probably not theirs.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by zxcvbn4038 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:07PM (#29982148)
Reminds me of https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/13/business/media-business-a... where a bunch of billboard owners in Times Square (New York City) tried to sue Sony over digitally replacing the advertisements in scenes in a Spiderman Movie. Luckily the judge in that case came to a similar conclusion.

I'm still dubious the city skylines can be copyrighted - NYC believes they own the copyright on the city's skyline. I'm also dubious that the NYC Subway can copyright the route indicators (letters in circles).

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/the-por...

http://www.fordhamiplj.org/2010/01/07/mta-symbols-intellectu...

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by wefarrell on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:35PM (#29986249)
Going after photographers who have the subway signs in the background is one thing, but going after businesses for copying their font seems entirely different to me.

They're a corporation who paid a lot of money for the rights to it, how is is different than Walmart or Netflix going after companies for using their fonts?

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by nybble41 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @05:11PM (#29986751)
The GP's linked article[0] doesn't say anything about fonts. It says that the MTA sued someone for using the letter 'N' in a circle on a T-shirt. Not even the same color scheme.

Judging from the examples on one of the MTA's branding pages[1], there doesn't seem to be anything particularly unique about the font they're using. They don't even mention it by name. Other sources claim the official signage is a mix of Helvetica and Akzidenz Grotesk. In any case, fontface designs are not copyrightable in the US. Fonts can be (as programs/data) but that isn't really relevant here.

[0] http://www.fordhamiplj.org/2010/01/07/mta-symbols-intellectu...

[1] http://web.mta.info/developers/resources/line_colors.htm

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by michaelmrose on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:47PM (#29988822)
Someone paying a lot of money for something doesn't appear to be a good argument for establishing a property interest for the people who paid such funds. I'm unclear what interest society has in protecting fonts. It seems like people will pay for the creation of more fonts than society can ever consume without the benefit of any such protection meaning society has no interest in extending any property interest despite any artistic merit or worth of such efforts.

At least movies cost millions of dollars and presumably we as a society will get more books if authors don't also have to make french fries. What protection do fonts need?

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by thinkloop on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:07AM (#29990192)
Books? What do we need books for? We've written more books than any person could consume.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:40AM (#29990384)
The vast bulk of authors don't make much of anything off of their books. Obviously, copyright protection only marginally increases the number of books written. The same goes for music.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by harikb on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:14PM (#29988589)
For the last few United or Delta flights I took, I had seen their ads that said they do this and that “contact less” - pretty standard in the covid world.

Right under the ad was a gigantic message that said “contact-less trademark owned by and used with permission of EMVCo, LLC”

I can imagine the airline’s surprise if they have originally printed ads without this.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:38AM (#29990373)
I've never understood all the hoopla about fonts, or why anyone would pay money for one. Heck, I made my own font when I blew a ROM for the character generator for a terminal I made. It never occurred to me it was copyrightable.

I've read several articles bloviating about this or that font, describing it like a wine taster would write about a wine, and would just come away rolling my eyes.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by vurpo on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:46AM (#29991006)
You'll appreciate a good font after having to read text printed in a bad one.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:21AM (#29991167)
Good fonts should be a dime a dozen.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @07:49AM (#29992918)
They’re actually incredibly labor-intensive to create!
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:34PM (#29997951)
How so? And people have been creating fonts for 500 years. What's the need to create more? It's just a font.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Wowfunhappy on Thursday January 20, 2022 @10:08AM (#30009785)
> How so?

You need to draw every letter in uppercase and lowercase, and every number and symbol. You need to make sure each character is visually consistent with and works well alongside every other character.

Then you need to repeat the above for every weight your font supports. (Bold, semibold, light, heavy, etc.)

Then you need to repeat all of the above for italics.

Then you need to kern the font. This means determining how much space to leave between every possible combination of two characters in your font.

---

> And people have been creating fonts for 500 years. What's the need to create more?

That's a bit like saying "People have been writing books for 500 years. What's the need to create more?"

We've only been displaying fonts on LCD screens for ~30 years, and fonts that were designed for print don't look as good on screen (and vise versa). Even fonts that were designed for low-res LCD screens often don't look as good on newer high-resolution ones.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by wefarrell on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @05:36PM (#30001400)
Branding. When a company puts their name on an advertisement/product/building they want it to be instantly recognizable and they want to convey a specific image that's more than just the written word.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @07:44PM (#30002690)
That's a trademark, not a font or a copyright. Trademark IP law is distinct.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by detritus on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:58PM (#29984846)
I've helped on a few jobs that required representing the skyline of London (in advertising, for example) and my clients have always been very careful to ensure that modern landmarks aren't entirely accurate, to avoid this kind of complication.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by josephcsible on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:00PM (#29982028)
Is "acceptable ads" really a bad thing? I'm not opposed to seeing any ads; I just don't want badly behaved ones. And is there a less bad alternative to accomplish that?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by BiteCode_dev on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:14PM (#29985061)
Yes, it's a bad thing.

Because you can't choose what's acceptable, they do.

You won't decide the topic, format, quantity, density, duration, nature or interruption type. Which is different for you, me, or your children.

What's more, ads are not made for your benefit, ever, but to the benefit of the advertiser which may (but statistically more likely may not) align with yours.

And also because:

- the incentive gets twisted, which means you can't trust ublock on the long run.

- unkown unknowns means down the road, some ads will manage to track you or serve malicious content despite ublock filtering.

- ads paid content is a terrible business model which take a price people are not wired to assess nor realize they pay for something they disguise as free yet has an impact on the entire society. Not a great thing to encourage.

And I say all that as someone who gets revenue from ads.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by gorhill on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:23PM (#29986049)
> you can't trust ublock on the long run

Why is this? Would you also say this for other long running open source projects which have never breach the trust of their users?

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by tpxl on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:40PM (#29986326)
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't uBlock handed over (changed owners? don't quite know how to put it) and uBlock origin started later precisely because uBlock breached the trust of their users?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by gorhill on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:56PM (#29986557)
I am assuming the person was referring to "uBlock Origin" given that "uBlock" has already shown it can't be trusted, maybe I am wrong and he was indeed referring to "uBlock".

The repo was handed in good faith, not for the sake of financial gains. It turned out to be a mistake, from which I learned. That was now nearly seven years ago. If the take away from that event after years of never breaching user trust is that "uBlock Origin can't be trusted in the long run", that's pretty harsh.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by ajnin on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:53PM (#29988431)
He was replying to a comment about the "Acceptable Ads" policy so he was clearly talking about uBlock, not uBlock Origin.

I think the story of how uBlock was transfered and then managed in a way that was not what you wished is pretty well known, and I think most people know that you forked back the project to restore that trust, and they appreciate the work you're doing for the community. At least I know I do, so let me take this opportunity to say thank you.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by tpxl on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:52AM (#29990437)
There is a lot of confusion going around in this thread regarding the difference between "uBlock" and "uBlock origin" with many people not even realizing there is a difference.

As far as uBlock Origin goes, it's one of the extensions I trust the most.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by nopenopenopeno on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:05PM (#29989433)
uBlock Origin is an entirely volunteer-run project. There is very little reason to trust that it will be around for any particular amount of time.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Shared404 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:48PM (#29990076)
And the person you're talking to is the main dev.

Based on his past actions, I feel comfortable trusting and using uBO until he decides he's done.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by nopenopenopeno on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:59PM (#29990144)
I had no idea! But, my point is specifically about when “he decides he’s done.”
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by tpxl on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:58AM (#29990469)
IIRC the developer said when he's done he is not going to transfer ownership. It's open source so it can live on, but not under the same name.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by mundo03 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:47PM (#29985522)
Right, any idea on how to keep content accessible and people with paychecks maintaining it?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __saykou on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:52AM (#29990747)
> Because you can't choose what's acceptable, they do.

Not exactly the acceptable ads must conform to the standard that is defined by the acceptable ads Committee which consists of publishers users, and distribution. Something like that.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by diffeomorphism on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:48AM (#29995127)
> because you can't choose

That seems like just an implementation detail. If users are able to choose/vote what is "acceptable" that seems like a concept worth trying.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:28PM (#29985254)
As far as I'm concerned, all advertisers can go to hell. If a majority of advertisers had behaved themselves we would never have invented ad blockers[0] in the first place. This industry has proven time and time again that they are the scum of the fucking earth and cannot be trusted. I for one am tired of giving them any chances.

[0] pop up blockers, originally

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by IcyClAyMptHe on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:05PM (#29987426)
Totally agree with this. Even if advertisers weren't tracking me everywhere (which is a whole other massive issues), advertising even at its least offensive is designed to generate a want or need I didn't have before. I don't need to be convinced to spend ever more money on the latest gadget, no matter how "cool" I might find it. It's all just advertisers revving that hedonistic treadmill.

If you live in the city, advertisers manipulate you every waking minute of your day, bombarding you from billboards, on tv, on the internet, and are constantly shoving their disgusting garbage in front of your eyes in new ways; at petrol pumps, on your tv menu, right in front of you on a taxi cab.

Worse still, the more you pay to avoid this trash, the more you become attractive to them as someone with money to spend. I can't remove the ads as a walk about the city, but for damn sure I'll remove them wherever I can in my home. Pi hole, ublock origin, sponsor block etc, all running to keep this crap out of my life. If people wont pay money for what creators are making, and they can't provide it for free, I'm fine with it going away. It probably wasn't worthwhile to begin with - only "addictive".

Ads are a scourge and make me sick. There are no "acceptable ads".

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by dheera on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:17PM (#29985964)
Yes this. I've had it with ads that pop up filling up the screen while I'm reading halfway through a sentence, spewing cookies all over the place, and loading megabytes of JavaScripts on a 2G connection.

They can all pay the consequences now of me blocking them.

If they had been well-behaved and stuck to inline ads with no cookies, I would have left them there.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Shacklz on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:59AM (#29991740)
Wholeheartedly agree. The world would be a better place without ads; less pointless consumerism and less money for companies that abuse basic human instincts to shove an ever-increasing amount of ads down our throats, without any care about societal effects so as long as it suits their bottom-line.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by motoxpro on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:49AM (#29991334)
I'm happy to watch ads so I don't have to pay for Instagram, Google Search & Docs, Gmail, Twitch, Youtube and most of my podcasts. I wouldn't be able to afford it if I couldn't pay with scrolling of my mouse past such ad (or my data, no worries)
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Shacklz on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:52AM (#29991710)
If it wasn't for free and if you wouldn't be able to afford it, your government might see the need to provide this as a public service, as in my opinion should be the case anyway. Or projects like peerTube would take off. Or... countless other options that currently aren't really options because some company already has a monopoly-grip on the entire market.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by motoxpro on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:20AM (#30020672)
I would still have to pay for it, it would just cost me more in taxes. People who work for the government don't work for free. Right now I am paying with my attention/data instead of with my money which I like.

I REALLY do not want to pay for a bunch of random services with my tax dollars. In your example, once I lose interest in youtube (or peertube in this case) I would still be paying for other people to use it and I get no benefit.

Right now, when I lose interest in Facebook (as I did) I just move on to the next service, it is unbelievably friction free. I just type a few letters in a URL.

Facebook dislodged Myspace, Tiktok is competing with Facebook, Discord is a brand new social media product. Anyone is totally free to create a subscription service or alternative (see DuckDuckGo). I don't understand the monopoly case.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by mcherm on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:10PM (#29982192)
> I'm not opposed to seeing any ads; I just don't want badly behaved ones.

While I support this sentiment, a definition of "badly behaved ads" which is based on whether or not the advertiser paid money to some third party is just not a definition I can live with.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by criddell on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:51PM (#29982880)
That's not the definition though, is it?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by roblabla on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:12PM (#29984192)
Depends on what you mean by "definition". They say[0] they only accept ads that do not disrupt the reading flow, can be distinguished from the rest of the content, and has a reasonable size (all clearly defined). (They also have more criterias, but those are the main ones).

But the problem is, that is very poorly enforced in practice. Whenever I use ABP, I see ads breaking the standard everywhere. To the point where I can only assume the Acceptable Ads definition is just a deflection.

And of course, there's the whole "you need to pay to get on the list" which creates some very awful incentives.

[0]: https://acceptableads.com/standard/

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by SahAssar on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:10PM (#29983213)
You have to pay a fee to get on to the acceptable ads list, right?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by criddell on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:40PM (#29983713)
You have to pay tuition to attend MIT but that's not all you have to do to leave there with a degree.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by cowpig on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:53PM (#29983911)
And did you know that you need to add or remove hydrogen ions to change the pH of a solution? Anyway, back to the conversation we were having
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by JadeNB on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:33PM (#29984519)
You can explain why you think it's a bad analogy, but this kind of dismissive snark helps no one.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by cowpig on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:57PM (#29984828)
I agree in principle but I also feel like there needs to be a minimum threshold of effort or topical relevance in a comment or the discussion becomes a kind of Gish Gallop[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Kye on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:54PM (#29985637)
How about a Gish Trot? Use flowery language to further confuse and it's Gish Dressage.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by vrc on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @08:34AM (#29993405)
I always have heard the “gallop” in this context pronounced “guh-LOP” with the stress on the second syllable.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Kye on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:07AM (#29995477)
I've never heard it spoken in this context, but I'm also not clear on what pronunciation or enunciation has to do with it. Horses trot, gallop, and go to dressage competitions regardless of how you pronounce or stress the syllables.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by motohagiography on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:41PM (#29999788)
A Gish Gallop is a way of logically nesting nonsense so as to defy response and has nothing to do with horses. It's a rhetorical tactic for cranks. Person hearing gal-LUP has only heard it from the polling company, and not the equine context.

The word I think you're looking for is "canter," as in three main gaits of a horse being walk, trot, and canter, with some other ones like gallop, tolt, and more obscure ones. They are defined by the number of beats in the gait. The walk has 4, trot 2, canter 3, and gallop is also 4.

But to extend the dressage metaphors, a Gish Piaffe would be extravagent and showy movement that goes nowhere and stays in one spot, a Gish Passage would be where the extravagent movement is independent of the direction, etc.

Dressage means "to straighten," or "to educate," so one works on the dressage of the horse, and dressage riding is riding with that intent. What people do in the olympics is ride, and it is the overall dressage of the horse that is what is judged. It's one of the few remaining sports in the olympics that is not merely a game. Source: am dressage bro. :)

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Kye on Thursday January 20, 2022 @12:02AM (#30004879)
This is all cool, but I suspect people got the joke. English is a distressingly flexible language.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by mundo03 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:48PM (#29985544)
check acceptableads.com In summary, high revenue/traffic sites do pay, small sites don't.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by diffeomorphism on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:02AM (#29995384)
Not really, no. You have to actually have acceptable ads (with a pretty reasonable list of requirements) and then may or may not pay some amount to have that verified.

Seems pretty much in line with food labeled as "organic" or "fair trade". You can say you meet the requirements, but if you want to advertise it somebody else certifies it.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by hungryfoolish on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:45AM (#29990704)
Only if you're a multi-million dollar corp. Not for the small guy, for e.g, https://blog.readthedocs.com/ad-blocker-update/
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by pgrote on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:11PM (#29982207)
I think that is a legitimate question. The issue becomes there is no standard or method to ensure acceptable ads. A static ad without javascript is acceptable to me. Maybe not to someone else.

But ... the ad industry would never accept a static ad more akin to a billboard than a tracking device. Many times in the past malware has found its way into networks run by the more highly regarded ad systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvertising

If a content publisher refuses to let people read articles without a subscription or with an ad blocker, I am ok with that. It is their choice.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by josefx on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:01PM (#29983052)
> a static ad more akin to a billboard than a tracking device

The sad part is that you assume that modern day billboards aren't tracking you. All you need is a camera, a tiny computer and some AI. Once walked by a fully electronic billboard where the slideshow crashed, the log it displayed listed everything it could identify about people passing by, age, gender, height, hair color, emotional state, ... .

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by whimsicalism on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#29982441)
> the ad industry would never accept a static ad more akin to a billboard than a tracking device.

Is JS synonymous with tracking? Why can't you just track server side? I don't see how removing JS from ads would prevent FB from targeting me on my FB feed.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by IX-103 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:52PM (#29987894)
Depends on the "ad product" being sold. For "I'll pay you to put this image on the page" ads you might not need JavaScript. For "I'll pay you if someone clicks on the ad" it might also be possible. For "I'll pay if the visitor sees the ad on the page" (which requires the ad to know if it is in the viewport), then JavaScript is 100% necessary. Likewise for "I'll pay you if you show the ad and then the person you showed it to buys the advertised item within the next 30 days". L

The ads market is a very complex and competitive industry. This means that practically every display side provider has their own special "ad product" to differentiate themselves. Almost all of these require JavaScript to implement their key features.

In addition there could be 4 or even more parties involved in showing an ad (publisher, publisher's supply side provider, advertiser's display side provider, advertiser, plus miscellaneous middlemen). These different parties may not trust each other, so they currently use JavaScript to send (via `fetch`) themselves information about the auction to check up on each other.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:04PM (#29984915)
Without JS phoning home everywhere there's a 'share on Facebook' button, Facebook can only track your activity on their site.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by atoav on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:38PM (#29983686)
Static non javascript file, hosted by the site owner.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by blibble on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:55PM (#29982943)
I wonder how many users install an product that claims to be an "ad blocker" so they can see different ads
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by grey_earthling on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:43PM (#29984636)
Privacy Badger may be useful to you. It blocks trackers, which just so happens to prevent some ads from loading.

I've seen websites ask me to disable my ad blocker when I only have Privacy Badger enabled (on top of Firefox's built-in behaviour).

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by celticninja on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:36PM (#29987739)
Banksy said this in relation to billboard type ads but it applies to online advertising too. Is there an acceptable rock you would allow someone to throw at your head?

>Fuck that. Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It’s yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by bee_rider on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:49PM (#29990083)
It seems complicated and pointless to keep an acceptable ads list, if I'm going to block some, why not block them all? While I only really care about blocking badly behaved ads, the easiest way to do so is to block all of them.

Also, the fact that they are taking money to get on the 'acceptable ads' list looks a little shady. It could be (let's be generous) misinterpreted as a third party just elbowing in to get a cut of the transaction, like some kind of protection racket. I'd worry this sort of thing might draw unwanted attention in some jurisdictions, even if it really isn't warranted.

Why bother going with the solution that is both technically and ethically more complicated? Just do the dumb thing and block everything.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by karaterobot on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:05PM (#29982118)
For you, this might be a great solution. I think most people who install an adblocker do it because they don't want to see any ads, so it defeats the purpose.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by heisenbit on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:01AM (#29990783)
Not a bad thing as the word acceptable notes.

BUT as the definition of acceptable is not in the hands of the accepting receiver but in the hands of the sender the word acceptable is used in a twisted manner. You are told it is acceptable but their behavior will be driven by forces yielding anything but acceptable.

Ignore what they say - their behavior matters and incentives are stacked against your interests with no effective limits.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by notreallyserio on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:33PM (#29987711)
The only ads I find acceptable are those served by the site itself. As soon as they load in a third party like Google, I'm out.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:56PM (#29984815)
I think so. You ask a server for something and it bundles that thing with other bits crafted to make you do something other than what you originally contacted the server for.

It might exploit a buffer overflow or it might exploit a distractable human, but it's malware just the same.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by radley on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:43PM (#29983756)
"Acceptable" for whom? After AdBlock made their acceptable ads deal with Google, they whitelisted stuff like sexy girls and misinfo videos in the Recommended Videos side-list on YouTube. Fake Ublock is probably the same way.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by qoi24u5xnlqeuq on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:46PM (#29983809)
previous employer had a hush-hush-don't-talk-about-it deal with ABP. $1mi per month to allow a subset of our ads all over the internet. ...which all the tracking cookies included.

It was a great deal for everyone, but people who installed ABP.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by whimsicalism on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:54AM (#29981921)
> and people have said that their business model is based on extorting ad companies to pay them to not block their ads

i mean, it is. ABP is basically modern day protection racket

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by brezelgoring on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:57AM (#29981979)
If it is, I like this protection racket.

Inflamatory statements aside, and whether or not online advertising is acceptable in its current form, there is a need they are fulfilling. If people don't find ads to be hospitable to their user experience then people don't find ads to be hospitable to their user experience, period. You can argue why all you want, in the meantime, ABP is there to get rid of them for you.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by simonbw on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:36PM (#29982640)
But ABP isn't there to get rid of them for you, they're there to get paid for allowing you to see them. Not only that, they're trying to weaken the other adblockers that are there to get rid of ads for you.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Taywee on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:54PM (#29982932)
> Not only that, they're trying to weaken the other adblockers that are there to get rid of ads for you.

I'm going to need a citation for that. I don't use ABP for obvious reasons, but I don't really see them as a problem; they're effectively extorting money from advertising companies, which are absolute scum and deserve to lose any and all profits that they have made (not only for scummy business practices and an entire business model built around the worst kind of psychological manipulation and data mining, but actually convincing people that they are good for supporting a "free web" as if they are some charitable benefactors giving free money out of the good of their hearts). The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I haven't been able to suss out any way that they do any real harm to the end users, but if they do actually do harm to other ad blockers, that would be some actual harm, but I am having trouble finding any evidence of this anywhere.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by simonbw on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:22PM (#29998663)
>> Not only that, they're trying to weaken the other adblockers that are there to get rid of ads for you.

> I'm going to need a citation for that.

I was mostly referring to the fact that they bought uBlock and made it use their “acceptable ads” program, which seems mainly like a move intended to weaken uBlock Origin, or at least leech off its reputation.

Honestly I don’t really know much about them, I just know that I’d much rather support uBlock Origin than this company.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by salawat on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:56PM (#29983970)
So... Why not support the ones that just remove it? Because you're implicitly legitimizing advertising practices (albeit at a hgher cost) by supporting these yokels.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:39PM (#29984586)
> you're implicitly legitimizing advertising practices

There is a middle ground of people okay with advertising, but pissed off about the nightmare that is the present state of internet ads. I use uBlock. But I’d be okay with e.g. text ads that don’t track me.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Taywee on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:34PM (#29985340)
I use uBlock Origin. I'm just saying that I see blocking ads and strong arming disgusting companies into losing some of their ill-gotten profits as not much of a bad thing. I don't see any way that ABP existing is worse for the end user than it not existing, especially if you don't even use it anyway.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by salawat on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:09PM (#29988559)
It's a mindshare thing. Ultimately, courts take into account any information of an ecosystem experts bring to them.

By having ABP widely used a lawyer could make the argument, or a judge could infer that advertising is an acceptable behavior, but the use of ABP is just the users signaling to advertisers that ABP content is rather preferred method.

If everyone used uBlock Origin on the other hand, a compelling argument against the legitimacy of intrusive advertising becomes much more likely to be accepted in court, which is where it matters.

It's sad it's come to this, but with advertising and marketing as huge active lobbying groups, the courts are one of the more even battlefields we stand to even be able to win on.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by SomeBoolshit on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:24PM (#29984373)
It's crazy that this fundamental misunderstanding still gets repeated ever since they introduced acceptable ads.

Companies pay to get their ads categorized as acceptable if they meet the criteria for that. You can't just pay to get your ads to show up.

And within the browser extension, the user still has the option to block them anyway.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by simonbw on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:17PM (#29998588)
I don’t think I misunderstood anything. ABP still makes their money by getting people to see ads, and they still send businesses emails saying “give us money or we’ll block your ads”.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by whimsicalism on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:17PM (#29982303)
No, they are there to get companies to pay them hundreds of thousands of $ in order to get them to unblock their advertising.

They'll also mistakenly introduce bugs to destroy your on-site metrics if you don't pay up.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:54PM (#29984783)
In a protection racket, you're paying for protection from the protectors, no third party involved.

In this case they're a middle man between the abusers and the abused, so I think it's more like prostitution.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by ballenf on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:28AM (#29981534)
Feels like a bad time to bite the hand that was willing to defend a precedent that serves everyone (if publishers were successful there, they'd have a much easier time arguing in other countries for "harmonization" legislation).
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Aperocky on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:57PM (#29982982)
Precedent or not, they have no ability to enforce any of such ridiculous claim had it gone the other way, it's like certain governments trying to 'ban' encryption.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by gowld on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:51AM (#29981867)
It's a good time to think about how to fund legal defense for free / open source software, and not rely on alliances with scammy companies.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by 1f60c on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:30AM (#29981557)
Let's hope their lawyers don't read HN. :-)
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by WA on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:25AM (#29991187)
If you can read German, the blogger Sascha Pallenberg wrote an in-depth piece in 2013 about the scammy nature of eyeo:

https://www.mobilegeeks.de/adblock-plus-undercover-einblicke...

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by detaro on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:28AM (#29981528)
Huh? What does eyeo have to do with uBlock? Adblock plus is their thing.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by ajayyy on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:31AM (#29981570)
It is officially one "team" now https://eyeo.com/teaming-up-for-new-products-the-teams-behin...

Historically, it always seemed like it was one company though as Adblock codebase has been based on Adblock plus codebase for years, and they both use Acceptable ads.

Edit to avoid confusion: Fake "uBlock" (not to be confused with uBlock Origin) is owned by AdBlock https://www.ublock.org/blog/an-update-on-ublock/

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by detaro on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:39AM (#29981695)
... and what does that have to do with uBlock? (EDIT: and if you edit in answers to questions into your original comment, please mark that as an edit)
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by erk__ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:41AM (#29981726)
uBlock (Not origin) was acquired by AdBlock (not plus), look under the uBlock header here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UBlock_Origin#uBlock
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by detaro on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:35PM (#29983632)
thanks, that was the piece that I was missing
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by efdee on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:36AM (#29981647)
That article is about the team(s) behind Adblock and Adblock Plus. It has nothing to do with uBlock Origin.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by ajayyy on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:40AM (#29981714)
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by whimsicalism on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:54AM (#29981910)
lol ublock origin blocks that second link
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by xxpor on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:36AM (#29981650)
Adblock/ABP != uBlock Origin
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by GuB-42 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:51PM (#29985582)
AdBlock Plus and uBlock are owned by the same company, uBlock is not uBlock Origin, and the history is confusing.

µBlock/uBlock was the original, released in 2014 by Gorhill. In 2015, fed up with support request, he transferred the project to Chris Aljoudi. He then forked his own project, most likely due to a disagreement over donations, it became uBlock Origin. Eventually most people moved from uBlock to the better maintained uBlock Origin. Eyeo eventually bought uBlock and added their "acceptable ads" option.

So you can't say that uBlock is a fake, it is actually the original project. But the one made by the original author is uBlock Origin.

Yes it is confusing, but whatever, get uBlock Origin.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by gorhill on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:44PM (#29986385)
The current "uBlock" is not the original project, "uBlock Origin" is the original project.

The essence of a project is not the location of its repo on GitHub, it's who worked on it since it was first created, i.e. the commit history. If you look at the commit history of "uBlock Origin", it goes back without interruption to June 23rd, 2014, back to when I created the repo.[1]

The claim that the current "uBlock" is the "official", "original" project is a marketing pitch by the people behind it, who I call out as purposefully deceitful.[2]

* * *

[1] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/graphs/contributors

[2] https://twitter.com/gorhill/status/1477665332156420096

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by jnurmine on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:59PM (#29984850)
For some reason I wasn't aware that ABP supported "Acceptable Ads".

How does Eyeo make money?

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by vrc on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @08:39AM (#29993481)
They allow certain search engines’ search-ads to pass through for a nominal fee. Those search engines happily support Eyeo because it’s easier to have a single, friendly, and known enemy that dominates the market.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by happybuy on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:32PM (#29989996)
> How does Eyeo make money?

They charge advertisers to be part of their 'acceptable ads' scheme that then allows these ads to be shown to users of their ad blocking products (ADP, Adblock Plus, Ublock).