News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by josephcsible on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:00PM (#29982028)
Is "acceptable ads" really a bad thing? I'm not opposed to seeing any ads; I just don't want badly behaved ones. And is there a less bad alternative to accomplish that?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by BiteCode_dev on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:14PM (#29985061)
Yes, it's a bad thing.

Because you can't choose what's acceptable, they do.

You won't decide the topic, format, quantity, density, duration, nature or interruption type. Which is different for you, me, or your children.

What's more, ads are not made for your benefit, ever, but to the benefit of the advertiser which may (but statistically more likely may not) align with yours.

And also because:

- the incentive gets twisted, which means you can't trust ublock on the long run.

- unkown unknowns means down the road, some ads will manage to track you or serve malicious content despite ublock filtering.

- ads paid content is a terrible business model which take a price people are not wired to assess nor realize they pay for something they disguise as free yet has an impact on the entire society. Not a great thing to encourage.

And I say all that as someone who gets revenue from ads.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by gorhill on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:23PM (#29986049)
> you can't trust ublock on the long run

Why is this? Would you also say this for other long running open source projects which have never breach the trust of their users?

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by tpxl on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:40PM (#29986326)
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't uBlock handed over (changed owners? don't quite know how to put it) and uBlock origin started later precisely because uBlock breached the trust of their users?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by gorhill on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:56PM (#29986557)
I am assuming the person was referring to "uBlock Origin" given that "uBlock" has already shown it can't be trusted, maybe I am wrong and he was indeed referring to "uBlock".

The repo was handed in good faith, not for the sake of financial gains. It turned out to be a mistake, from which I learned. That was now nearly seven years ago. If the take away from that event after years of never breaching user trust is that "uBlock Origin can't be trusted in the long run", that's pretty harsh.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by ajnin on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:53PM (#29988431)
He was replying to a comment about the "Acceptable Ads" policy so he was clearly talking about uBlock, not uBlock Origin.

I think the story of how uBlock was transfered and then managed in a way that was not what you wished is pretty well known, and I think most people know that you forked back the project to restore that trust, and they appreciate the work you're doing for the community. At least I know I do, so let me take this opportunity to say thank you.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by tpxl on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:52AM (#29990437)
There is a lot of confusion going around in this thread regarding the difference between "uBlock" and "uBlock origin" with many people not even realizing there is a difference.

As far as uBlock Origin goes, it's one of the extensions I trust the most.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by nopenopenopeno on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:05PM (#29989433)
uBlock Origin is an entirely volunteer-run project. There is very little reason to trust that it will be around for any particular amount of time.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Shared404 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:48PM (#29990076)
And the person you're talking to is the main dev.

Based on his past actions, I feel comfortable trusting and using uBO until he decides he's done.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by nopenopenopeno on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:59PM (#29990144)
I had no idea! But, my point is specifically about when “he decides he’s done.”
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by tpxl on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @12:58AM (#29990469)
IIRC the developer said when he's done he is not going to transfer ownership. It's open source so it can live on, but not under the same name.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by mundo03 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:47PM (#29985522)
Right, any idea on how to keep content accessible and people with paychecks maintaining it?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __saykou on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:52AM (#29990747)
> Because you can't choose what's acceptable, they do.

Not exactly the acceptable ads must conform to the standard that is defined by the acceptable ads Committee which consists of publishers users, and distribution. Something like that.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by diffeomorphism on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @10:48AM (#29995127)
> because you can't choose

That seems like just an implementation detail. If users are able to choose/vote what is "acceptable" that seems like a concept worth trying.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:28PM (#29985254)
As far as I'm concerned, all advertisers can go to hell. If a majority of advertisers had behaved themselves we would never have invented ad blockers[0] in the first place. This industry has proven time and time again that they are the scum of the fucking earth and cannot be trusted. I for one am tired of giving them any chances.

[0] pop up blockers, originally

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by IcyClAyMptHe on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:05PM (#29987426)
Totally agree with this. Even if advertisers weren't tracking me everywhere (which is a whole other massive issues), advertising even at its least offensive is designed to generate a want or need I didn't have before. I don't need to be convinced to spend ever more money on the latest gadget, no matter how "cool" I might find it. It's all just advertisers revving that hedonistic treadmill.

If you live in the city, advertisers manipulate you every waking minute of your day, bombarding you from billboards, on tv, on the internet, and are constantly shoving their disgusting garbage in front of your eyes in new ways; at petrol pumps, on your tv menu, right in front of you on a taxi cab.

Worse still, the more you pay to avoid this trash, the more you become attractive to them as someone with money to spend. I can't remove the ads as a walk about the city, but for damn sure I'll remove them wherever I can in my home. Pi hole, ublock origin, sponsor block etc, all running to keep this crap out of my life. If people wont pay money for what creators are making, and they can't provide it for free, I'm fine with it going away. It probably wasn't worthwhile to begin with - only "addictive".

Ads are a scourge and make me sick. There are no "acceptable ads".

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by dheera on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @04:17PM (#29985964)
Yes this. I've had it with ads that pop up filling up the screen while I'm reading halfway through a sentence, spewing cookies all over the place, and loading megabytes of JavaScripts on a 2G connection.

They can all pay the consequences now of me blocking them.

If they had been well-behaved and stuck to inline ads with no cookies, I would have left them there.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Shacklz on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:59AM (#29991740)
Wholeheartedly agree. The world would be a better place without ads; less pointless consumerism and less money for companies that abuse basic human instincts to shove an ever-increasing amount of ads down our throats, without any care about societal effects so as long as it suits their bottom-line.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by motoxpro on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:49AM (#29991334)
I'm happy to watch ads so I don't have to pay for Instagram, Google Search & Docs, Gmail, Twitch, Youtube and most of my podcasts. I wouldn't be able to afford it if I couldn't pay with scrolling of my mouse past such ad (or my data, no worries)
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Shacklz on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @04:52AM (#29991710)
If it wasn't for free and if you wouldn't be able to afford it, your government might see the need to provide this as a public service, as in my opinion should be the case anyway. Or projects like peerTube would take off. Or... countless other options that currently aren't really options because some company already has a monopoly-grip on the entire market.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by motoxpro on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:20AM (#30020672)
I would still have to pay for it, it would just cost me more in taxes. People who work for the government don't work for free. Right now I am paying with my attention/data instead of with my money which I like.

I REALLY do not want to pay for a bunch of random services with my tax dollars. In your example, once I lose interest in youtube (or peertube in this case) I would still be paying for other people to use it and I get no benefit.

Right now, when I lose interest in Facebook (as I did) I just move on to the next service, it is unbelievably friction free. I just type a few letters in a URL.

Facebook dislodged Myspace, Tiktok is competing with Facebook, Discord is a brand new social media product. Anyone is totally free to create a subscription service or alternative (see DuckDuckGo). I don't understand the monopoly case.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by mcherm on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:10PM (#29982192)
> I'm not opposed to seeing any ads; I just don't want badly behaved ones.

While I support this sentiment, a definition of "badly behaved ads" which is based on whether or not the advertiser paid money to some third party is just not a definition I can live with.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by criddell on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:51PM (#29982880)
That's not the definition though, is it?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by roblabla on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:12PM (#29984192)
Depends on what you mean by "definition". They say[0] they only accept ads that do not disrupt the reading flow, can be distinguished from the rest of the content, and has a reasonable size (all clearly defined). (They also have more criterias, but those are the main ones).

But the problem is, that is very poorly enforced in practice. Whenever I use ABP, I see ads breaking the standard everywhere. To the point where I can only assume the Acceptable Ads definition is just a deflection.

And of course, there's the whole "you need to pay to get on the list" which creates some very awful incentives.

[0]: https://acceptableads.com/standard/

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by SahAssar on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:10PM (#29983213)
You have to pay a fee to get on to the acceptable ads list, right?
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by criddell on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:40PM (#29983713)
You have to pay tuition to attend MIT but that's not all you have to do to leave there with a degree.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by cowpig on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:53PM (#29983911)
And did you know that you need to add or remove hydrogen ions to change the pH of a solution? Anyway, back to the conversation we were having
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by JadeNB on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:33PM (#29984519)
You can explain why you think it's a bad analogy, but this kind of dismissive snark helps no one.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by cowpig on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:57PM (#29984828)
I agree in principle but I also feel like there needs to be a minimum threshold of effort or topical relevance in a comment or the discussion becomes a kind of Gish Gallop[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Kye on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:54PM (#29985637)
How about a Gish Trot? Use flowery language to further confuse and it's Gish Dressage.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by vrc on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @08:34AM (#29993405)
I always have heard the “gallop” in this context pronounced “guh-LOP” with the stress on the second syllable.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Kye on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:07AM (#29995477)
I've never heard it spoken in this context, but I'm also not clear on what pronunciation or enunciation has to do with it. Horses trot, gallop, and go to dressage competitions regardless of how you pronounce or stress the syllables.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by motohagiography on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @03:41PM (#29999788)
A Gish Gallop is a way of logically nesting nonsense so as to defy response and has nothing to do with horses. It's a rhetorical tactic for cranks. Person hearing gal-LUP has only heard it from the polling company, and not the equine context.

The word I think you're looking for is "canter," as in three main gaits of a horse being walk, trot, and canter, with some other ones like gallop, tolt, and more obscure ones. They are defined by the number of beats in the gait. The walk has 4, trot 2, canter 3, and gallop is also 4.

But to extend the dressage metaphors, a Gish Piaffe would be extravagent and showy movement that goes nowhere and stays in one spot, a Gish Passage would be where the extravagent movement is independent of the direction, etc.

Dressage means "to straighten," or "to educate," so one works on the dressage of the horse, and dressage riding is riding with that intent. What people do in the olympics is ride, and it is the overall dressage of the horse that is what is judged. It's one of the few remaining sports in the olympics that is not merely a game. Source: am dressage bro. :)

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by Kye on Thursday January 20, 2022 @12:02AM (#30004879)
This is all cool, but I suspect people got the joke. English is a distressingly flexible language.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by mundo03 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:48PM (#29985544)
check acceptableads.com In summary, high revenue/traffic sites do pay, small sites don't.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by diffeomorphism on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @11:02AM (#29995384)
Not really, no. You have to actually have acceptable ads (with a pretty reasonable list of requirements) and then may or may not pay some amount to have that verified.

Seems pretty much in line with food labeled as "organic" or "fair trade". You can say you meet the requirements, but if you want to advertise it somebody else certifies it.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by hungryfoolish on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @01:45AM (#29990704)
Only if you're a multi-million dollar corp. Not for the small guy, for e.g, https://blog.readthedocs.com/ad-blocker-update/
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by pgrote on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:11PM (#29982207)
I think that is a legitimate question. The issue becomes there is no standard or method to ensure acceptable ads. A static ad without javascript is acceptable to me. Maybe not to someone else.

But ... the ad industry would never accept a static ad more akin to a billboard than a tracking device. Many times in the past malware has found its way into networks run by the more highly regarded ad systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvertising

If a content publisher refuses to let people read articles without a subscription or with an ad blocker, I am ok with that. It is their choice.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by josefx on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:01PM (#29983052)
> a static ad more akin to a billboard than a tracking device

The sad part is that you assume that modern day billboards aren't tracking you. All you need is a camera, a tiny computer and some AI. Once walked by a fully electronic billboard where the slideshow crashed, the log it displayed listed everything it could identify about people passing by, age, gender, height, hair color, emotional state, ... .

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by whimsicalism on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#29982441)
> the ad industry would never accept a static ad more akin to a billboard than a tracking device.

Is JS synonymous with tracking? Why can't you just track server side? I don't see how removing JS from ads would prevent FB from targeting me on my FB feed.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by IX-103 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:52PM (#29987894)
Depends on the "ad product" being sold. For "I'll pay you to put this image on the page" ads you might not need JavaScript. For "I'll pay you if someone clicks on the ad" it might also be possible. For "I'll pay if the visitor sees the ad on the page" (which requires the ad to know if it is in the viewport), then JavaScript is 100% necessary. Likewise for "I'll pay you if you show the ad and then the person you showed it to buys the advertised item within the next 30 days". L

The ads market is a very complex and competitive industry. This means that practically every display side provider has their own special "ad product" to differentiate themselves. Almost all of these require JavaScript to implement their key features.

In addition there could be 4 or even more parties involved in showing an ad (publisher, publisher's supply side provider, advertiser's display side provider, advertiser, plus miscellaneous middlemen). These different parties may not trust each other, so they currently use JavaScript to send (via `fetch`) themselves information about the auction to check up on each other.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:04PM (#29984915)
Without JS phoning home everywhere there's a 'share on Facebook' button, Facebook can only track your activity on their site.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by atoav on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:38PM (#29983686)
Static non javascript file, hosted by the site owner.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by blibble on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:55PM (#29982943)
I wonder how many users install an product that claims to be an "ad blocker" so they can see different ads
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by grey_earthling on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:43PM (#29984636)
Privacy Badger may be useful to you. It blocks trackers, which just so happens to prevent some ads from loading.

I've seen websites ask me to disable my ad blocker when I only have Privacy Badger enabled (on top of Firefox's built-in behaviour).

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by celticninja on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:36PM (#29987739)
Banksy said this in relation to billboard type ads but it applies to online advertising too. Is there an acceptable rock you would allow someone to throw at your head?

>Fuck that. Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It’s yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by bee_rider on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:49PM (#29990083)
It seems complicated and pointless to keep an acceptable ads list, if I'm going to block some, why not block them all? While I only really care about blocking badly behaved ads, the easiest way to do so is to block all of them.

Also, the fact that they are taking money to get on the 'acceptable ads' list looks a little shady. It could be (let's be generous) misinterpreted as a third party just elbowing in to get a cut of the transaction, like some kind of protection racket. I'd worry this sort of thing might draw unwanted attention in some jurisdictions, even if it really isn't warranted.

Why bother going with the solution that is both technically and ethically more complicated? Just do the dumb thing and block everything.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by karaterobot on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:05PM (#29982118)
For you, this might be a great solution. I think most people who install an adblocker do it because they don't want to see any ads, so it defeats the purpose.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by heisenbit on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @02:01AM (#29990783)
Not a bad thing as the word acceptable notes.

BUT as the definition of acceptable is not in the hands of the accepting receiver but in the hands of the sender the word acceptable is used in a twisted manner. You are told it is acceptable but their behavior will be driven by forces yielding anything but acceptable.

Ignore what they say - their behavior matters and incentives are stacked against your interests with no effective limits.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by notreallyserio on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @06:33PM (#29987711)
The only ads I find acceptable are those served by the site itself. As soon as they load in a third party like Google, I'm out.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:56PM (#29984815)
I think so. You ask a server for something and it bundles that thing with other bits crafted to make you do something other than what you originally contacted the server for.

It might exploit a buffer overflow or it might exploit a distractable human, but it's malware just the same.

Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by radley on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:43PM (#29983756)
"Acceptable" for whom? After AdBlock made their acceptable ads deal with Google, they whitelisted stuff like sexy girls and misinfo videos in the Recommended Videos side-list on YouTube. Fake Ublock is probably the same way.
Re:Eyeo wins German copyright decision, sets legal precedent... by qoi24u5xnlqeuq on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:46PM (#29983809)
previous employer had a hush-hush-don't-talk-about-it deal with ABP. $1mi per month to allow a subset of our ads all over the internet. ...which all the tracking cookies included.

It was a great deal for everyone, but people who installed ABP.