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Re:Office 2000 is good to go by spaetzleesser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @09:53AM (#29241166)
I believe some around 2000 Office and Windows reached their peaks of usability. They seemed to designed to get stuff done.

Since then it seems they crammed more and more "intelligent" functions into the software that made them less predictable. I still don't know under what circumstances Windows Search finds things sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. Lately Outlook search feels random. Teams search is a complete mess. When I write stuff in Word, Word seems very opinionated and messes up formatting all the time. Saving things to our disk is also an ordeal because they are pushing OneDrive.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by abraxas on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:45AM (#29241811)
> When I write stuff in Word, Word seems very opinionated and messes up formatting all the time

This has been an issue with Word from its inception. This is because Word is broken at its core. The formatting is neither style based nor paragraph based. It's a weird mix. You can apply a style and then override it ad hoc creating a mess of a structure under the covers no doubt. I also heard horror stories about the native Word file format (at least in the days of Word6/Word97).

The Office won out purely on the sheer marketing muscle of Microsoft and their ceaseless effort to make competing software feel inferior on their operating systems. Without that I doubt they'd be where they are now in terms of market penetration.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by phaedrus on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @05:38PM (#29247186)
I was explaining to one of my coworkers how back in the day with WordPerfect you could click "Show Codes" (or whatever the menu option was called) and view all the embedded formatting tags as text rather than WYSIWYG. This made it incredibly easy to fix formatting issues and see what was wrong with an unintended interaction of styles. As people who had only ever used (read: fought with) Microsoft Word, they were mind-blown that such a thing once existed.

We maintain technical documentation and have to manually track page changes, which ultimately results in physical pages being printed and replaced in physical binders in many facilities. Use of Microsoft Word for this purpose is sketchy as f--- because when Word decides to "go nuts" and slightly reformat the next 100 pages (or worse, even previous pages) because of a minor edit, it turns a single page change into a hundreds-of-pages change apocalypse.

Of course we don't really let that outcome stand; what actually happens is an engineer (with occasional consultation of a documentation specialist) spends half a day tentatively prodding and undoing changes in an increasingly broken document trying to find a way through the maze that doesn't trigger either a formatting booby trap or Word's over-helpful malevolent AI.

The key point here is without the ability to "show codes" and edit the real underlying structure of the document not the WYSIWYG view, the entropy just increases over time.

We all agree that Word is not the appropriate software for what we're doing. Unfortunately the people with the power to fix this situation are the furthest removed from understanding our pain, and we have decades' worth of Word docs. And since Microsoft Office is the default, even when Word breaks compatibility we don't take advantage of that opportunity to move to a real document management system, they just keep buying the next version of Office.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by CamperBob2 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:34PM (#29248098)
You can show codes in Word. They've just buried it about 12 layers deep.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:08PM (#29248317)
Really? Where?
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by CamperBob2 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:31PM (#29248439)
In my version (2010) it's File -> Options -> Display -> Show all formatting marks, and/or File -> Options -> Advanced -> Show field codes instead of their values. I've heard it's even harder to find in newer versions.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:42PM (#29248496)
Thanks! At work we're on 365 sadly but now that I know what the options are called I'll Google them!
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by Someone1234 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:55AM (#29241968)
I agree with you, playing devil's advocate though I would argue that Office largely won because it targeted casual usages even if it meant hurting professional ones. Then give it away to schools for $0 (in the 1990s) so they'd get a mass of beginner/casual users that brought it with them into professional settings.

Word is awful at professional typesetting, but it is really easy to use casually for making resumes/letters/etc. Excel is excellent for making lists of things and basic accounting/graphing.

Aside; the original Microsoft Office formats (e.g. doc) were formulated in C header files (i.e. a serialized array of C data types). They were garbage. Current Microsoft Office formats (ending in "x" e.g. docx) are night-and-day better (they're standard zip files with boring XML files within). People should go unzip a docx file and check it out, very not-intiminating.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by btilly on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:28PM (#29246553)
Sorry, I have to give bonus points for, "their ceaseless effort to make competing software feel inferior on their operating systems."

The point where Microsoft Word overtook WordPerfect was when Microsoft released Windows 95, which somehow broke WordPerfect, and refused to give Corel any access to it in advance of the release. By the time Corel had figured out how to make WordPerfect run 6 months later, it was too late, Microsoft Word was more widely used.

Incidentally the original formats were literally a dump of in memory data structures. Which means that compatibility became a huge headache every time Microsoft tried to change its internal data structures. That's WHY they migrated to the docx format.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by spaetzleesser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @01:59PM (#29244890)
"(they're standard zip files with boring XML files within)"

that's the container format. But the actual document data is still a big mess. Although that's probably unavoidable if you keep a file format for a long time. PDF and Photoshop files are also a mess.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by thereddaikon on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:01PM (#29246298)
Targeting casual use was the key. Even in the "professional" world almost nobody uses the Office applications to their full extent. The people who can are using more appropriate software. Accountants have Intuit and Peachtree, Anyone working in graphics, design or typesetting will use the appropriate Adobe app or competitor. Power Point is probably the only member of the suite that doesn't have a more "professional" equivalent. But there are definitely people who are more adept with it in the business world.

Office was probably feature complete in its second or third iteration. The only substantive changes 99% of users notice are in interface overhauls.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by baud147258 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:14PM (#29247956)
> Targeting casual use was the key.

I feel like that's what Google does with chromebooks and their editor suite

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by staticautomatic on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @01:21AM (#29249775)
Have you ever read the documentation for that XML? It’s basically written in Zodiac cypher.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by int_19h on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:02PM (#29247360)
The native Word file format is so complicated because it was basically a filesystem in a file, designed for extensibility scenarios such as embedding documents into other documents via OLE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COM_Structured_Storage

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by mananaysiempre on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:55PM (#29247820)
The structured storage part isn’t the problem, because Word doesn’t actually use it much except when you use OLE (the seemingly builtin things that use OLE are images, the abominable Equation, and maybe WordArt). IIRC the Word 97 format is essentially the previous Word format (whatever it was called) changed to use UCS-2 throughout, packed into a single stream in OLE storage, plus a bit of frills such as \005SummaryInformation.

(This is to be compared with e.g. OOXML spreadsheets, which go as far as to store the sheets of cells and the strings inside those cells in two completely different entries of the ZIP container.)

Everything that a Word document is maps 1:1 to a relatively straightforward string-of-bytes RTF. (With, again, the exception of OLE, which is why WordPad can write stuff that it assigns a .DOC suffix but is in fact an RTF stuffed into structured storage.) In fact, there was a piece of Microsoft software called the WinWord Converter SDK (Q111716) that used RTF as an intermediate format and had a bunch of DLLs that could read and write other formats; a compatible set of DLLs shipped with Windows and supported WordPad, and a larger one shipped with Word proper and contained all of its foreign format support.

However, if you look at that perfectly innocent, easily parseable RTF, you’ll find that it is still a nightmare. Not only because Word generated horrible unoptimized RTFs and only used Unicode text if it couldn’t avoid it, but also exactly because it can represent everything that a Word document is, and that is an unfathomable amount of stuff to be able to represent, even for Word 97. (None of which the alleged RTF spec tells you how to render or lay out.)

My personal answer to the question “why can’t one replace Word?”, or rather “why are all replacements for Word either failures or not particularly better?” is that Word can do (and thus supporting its format requires you to implement) so much that being compatible with Word is effectively equivalent to just being Word. To be fair, OpenOffice Writer is a pretty decent Word and I do use it when I need one, but it’s very uninteresting as a contribution to the field of handling formatted text on computers.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by perlancar3 on Friday November 19, 2021 @10:52PM (#29285406)
OpenOffice Writer and LibreOffice Writer have their proper bugs of their own, to the point that it's very frustrating to work with a non-trivial document. Many of these include some aspects of formatting not being saved to file and not restored when re-loading the file. And this is saving to .odt and not .doc or .docx. The Calcs have many bugs too. I have reported some but have since given up. For serious work I return to Word.

The other alternatives are not better. A couple of weeks ago I needed to create a catalog of products that is just a few pages long. Calligra couldn't even show the image I added; there was bounding box which could be moved around but no images were shown. Abiword got glacially slow when adding a ~4MB image.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by dhosek on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:32PM (#29248449)
Once upon a time I worked for a company that did document viewer software (in the year and a half I was there it went through three names none of which I can remember). One of my first tasks was—no, seriously—debugging an issue where an animated gif in an Excel spreadsheet embedded in a Word document wasn't being animated.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:04PM (#29248290)
> You can apply a style and then override it ad hoc creating a mess of a structure under the covers no doubt. I also heard horror stories about the native Word file format (at least in the days of Word6/Word97).

Yeah I really miss the source screen of WordPerfect. That was an amazing feature and if they added that to Word it would actually be worth it to upgrade for once.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by artificialLimbs on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:10PM (#29248944)
WordPerfect (12 or 14 I believe) still runs on Windows 10. May have to run in compatibility mode. We have an employee that uses it today because of Show Codes.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by wombatpm on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @09:06PM (#29248626)
People don’t know how or why to use styles. I actually read the entire word manual that came with version 5 for the Mac. Best thing I ever did in grad school
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by causality0 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:43AM (#29241772)
Saving things to our disk is also an ordeal because they are pushing OneDrive.

Christ don't remind me. The galaxy-brains at my work decided every file on every PC needs to go into OneDrive on a constant-update basis. Between the fact we're still stuck using HDDs instead of SSDs and our network hitting 16 megabits per second on a good day, most people have managed to get an impressive amount of reading done while waiting for their PCs to do anything at all.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by Arrath on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @03:05PM (#29245737)
We were recently notified that external USB storage will soon be banned, and to use OneDrive to transfer files.

My question to IT of "Hey we have clients that explicitly only allow the use of their own (incredibly terrible) file transfer platform, and block OneDrive. We've been burning stuff to CD with a usb drive and hand delivering it, if you ban those wat do?"

Got the form "this is how you use OneDrive" response back. Love it.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by miohtama on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:30PM (#29246571)
Sounds like an organizational issue in your work place. Usually these are the best dealt by changing the employer. They rarely get fixed from within the organization itself.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:59PM (#29248264)
Making it impossible to work with clients also tends to lead to the loss of those clients and as a result changing one's employer due to the employer no longer existing :)

This includes the VPs in question so usually these things get fixed before it gets that far though. But not before everyone else in the org has had a chance to practice their facepalm skills though.

In other words I feel your pain :)

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by spaetzleesser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:03PM (#29247368)
Throwing a fit while the VP is around often helps :). It always amazes me how quickly things get done when the guy who controls the budget wants something.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by dehrmann on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @12:29AM (#29249562)
> We were recently notified that external USB storage will soon be banned

With how often USB drives with PII get lost, this is probably a good idea. I'd prefer Dropbox over OneDrive, though.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by jonhohle on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:31AM (#29241619)
Completely agree. Office 2000 and Windows 2000 are probably my favorite Microsoft software of all time. They performed well on mid-range hardware (I ran them on Pentium II and III), were the best they’ve looked (imho), and let you get things done. For a long time I installed Windows 2000 in VMs for running older games and software, even into the Vista days.

I would accept arguments that Office peaked between Word 6 and ‘98, but everything after Windows and Office 2000 were worse. XP’s Luna was an ugly reaction to OS X’s Aqua. Things kept getting slower and larger for no obvious addition of functionality.

I’ve long since left Windows behind, but still have found memories of Microsoft circa 2000.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by moolcool on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:34AM (#29241661)
XP's luna didn't run very deep though. XP was very similar in appearance to 2000 with a couple of minor settings tweaks
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by xattt on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:45AM (#29241810)
Classic mode was easy to turn on.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by jankotek on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:41AM (#29241751)
Win95 had very strict and consistent UI style. Office2k and Win2k were peak of this consistency. After that came WinXP and mismatch of inconsistent UI styles.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by Someone1234 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:04AM (#29242108)
I've had to teach people to use PCs many times, it used to be so much easier for this reason. You'd teach someone that "this icon mean THIS" and that would be that, but today that is impossible because there are five different graphics/ideas for each thing (plus of course iconography used to use analogies from real-life, like a pen for Word, bin for throwing stuff away, folders, etc).

Windows 10 never really reached self-consistency in six years, and it seems like Microsoft just doesn't care at this point with Windows 11 now just layering more contradictory concepts on the unfinished Windows 10 ones.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by SubiculumCode on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:52PM (#29246782)
Its to the point where I'd rather have text than icons in the various menus.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by endgame on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @05:19PM (#29247023)
Look at old pictures of (say) Netscape Navigator. Despite having far fewer pixels we somehow had enough to label our icons. What went wrong?
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by vb6sp6 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @05:47PM (#29247265)
Globalization happened

English "250 views" = 8 chars wide German "250 mal angesehen" = 17 chars wide

English "FAQ" = 3 chars wide Portuguese "Perguntas freqüentes" = 20 characters wide

It isn't uncommon for english words to expand 200-300% when translated to other languages.

I'd love to see a german, italian, or portuguese version of netscape to see how they fit those labels

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by CmdrKrool on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:50PM (#29248205)
> I'd love to see a german, italian, or portuguese version of netscape to see how they fit those labels

https://aware7.de/wp-content/uploads/Netscape_4.png

Doesn't look like a showstopper, at least for the specific toolbar icons that Netscape had.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:17PM (#29248356)
"Verwandte Objek" seems cut off, it should be "Objekte" but other than that it aligns pretty well.

Ps my German is basic so perhaps I'm wrong

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by vb6sp6 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:00PM (#29249170)
nice find! There are a few English bits on there: guide, stop, shop. Wonder why
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by vurpo on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @12:43AM (#29249617)
"Guide" and "stop" are not only English words, but present in lots of European languages. "Shop" is a common loanword from English in lots of these European languages.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by SubiculumCode on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @05:50PM (#29247282)
I imagine that abbreviations are common in these languages?
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by vb6sp6 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:05PM (#29247383)
It really depends on the phrase. FAQ was just used as an extreme example.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by faqfaq on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @12:14AM (#29249506)
The French made up a translation to fit the acronym.

FAQ = “Foire aux questions”, where “foire” is the French word for a fair, a place where you go to see many things (in this case, questions).

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by abakker on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:02PM (#29248906)
I think when I was in 4th grade, using Netscape, I spoke english but didn't know what FAQ meant. I think I probably searched it on Altavista.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:14PM (#29248342)
Yeah what doesn't help is that dialog windows from that era are still in Windows 11 today... Especially around the settings.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by bluedino on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @10:36AM (#29241680)
A big part of this is mentioned in the article:

> The biggest competition for Office 2000 was . . . Office 97.

> We were so heads down finishing Office 2000 that we didn’t realize how well received, and how good, Office 97 was.

They had to keep introducing new shit to get people to upgrade. If your feature was the hot new feature, you got promoted. So everyone wanted to get their pet feature in, and the users lost.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:06PM (#29246346)
I'd say 2003 is the last best version. It's the last version without ribbon and it is able to support OOXML with an addon. The UI experiments like partially hidden menus are all disableable if you don't want them.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by akoster on Wednesday November 17, 2021 @12:24AM (#29249535)
I concur except conveniently the Office 2007 compatibility pack is fully compatible with Office 2000. Microsoft took their page down but here is a mirror at download.com [1] and from this Stack Exchangw thread [2]

[1] https://download.cnet.com/Microsoft-Office-Compatibility-Pac...

[2] https://superuser.com/questions/404902/microsoft-office-comp...

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by vikingerik on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @05:05PM (#29246904)
Yeah, Office 2003 is the sweet spot. It's also the last version that installs entirely offline, without any attempts to sign in or phone home for verification.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by frosted-flakes on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:40PM (#29247679)
Office 2003 has usage telemetry, and was apparently quite useful when they were making Office 2007, because they knew what people actually used and how often.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by thrower123 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:02AM (#29242076)
I used a portable version of Word 2003 for many many years. It would run off an old 128MB flash drive.

The extra clicks every time you try to save anything in newer versions of Office before you can get to a file picker dialog is truly maddening.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by ropeladder on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:34PM (#29248097)
F12 is your friend here. (It brings up the old file save as menu in most office software, wish it was more standard, actually)
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by baud147258 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @07:10PM (#29247926)
What I find the worst about Teams' search is how it can find individual messages, but not the context surrounding them! So you can find the question you asked 6 months ago, but not the answers! And no way to go back to a precise date in the past (or I haven't found it) and scrolling too quickly is buggy.

Between my two work computers, I have different versions of outlook and between the two, Microsoft seriously screwed up the search.

Though I don't have issues with the windows search, maybe because I don't search inside the files (I don't use windows search to do that)?

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by userbinator on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:32PM (#29248445)
and scrolling too quickly is buggy.

Blame the "designers" who thought infinite scrolling was a good idea. Combine that with a disappearing scrollbar and it's a usability nightmare.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by abakker on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @09:59PM (#29248896)
I wish so bad I could just dump teams chats to a .txt file. I must have 100s of pages of chat with some people. And, the people I chat the most with are the chats I need to search the most, and it also the place where search works the worst!
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:11PM (#29248330)
This... It is so annoying. Especially as we use teams for longer now and looking back manually is really unfeasible now.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by bwat48 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:18PM (#29248365)
Yeah the teams search drives me crazy, I can find the comment I'm looking for, but it's impossible to find the thread with all of the important context if it's too old

reminds me of this:

https://xkcd.com/979/

Only denvercoder9 is myself!

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by fomine3 on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @09:22PM (#29248700)
This. I can't believe this garbage is considered to serious option.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by makecheck on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:34AM (#29242528)
Yeah, and I’m terrified by the “new” UI Outlook keeps prompting me to “try”, knowing that one day the old one will probably just go away.

The new UI takes up way more space and completely messes up my preferred split-screen approach (e.g. instead of working in a 50/50 layout, the new UI basically forces the split to be more like 70/30 with less useful stuff on screen).

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by chris_wot on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @11:52AM (#29242842)
I just can’t work out how to turn off “focused” inbox. I want me mail, and all of it!
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by GekkePrutser on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @08:12PM (#29248338)
It's there fortunately. I also turn off threaded and focused modes because they make it too likely I miss something.
Re:Office 2000 is good to go by udev on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @04:12PM (#29246413)
I am a Windows user since 3.11 (so 25+ years).

I am yet to see a single instance when a troubleshooting wizard was not a complete waste of time.

Re:Office 2000 is good to go by silvershell on Tuesday November 16, 2021 @06:39PM (#29247673)
No kidding... So true.