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Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by pbourke on Friday October 08, 2021 @09:43PM (#28806264)
The Netherlands has the highest English proficiency in the world [0] (among non-native speaking countries) so I imagine it would be a compelling choice.

[0] https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by rtpg on Saturday October 09, 2021 @12:48AM (#28807140)
But I mean… Ireland has a higher English proficiency?

There are of course a lot of things doable fully in English. But when running a company not mastering the native language (even when all of the people you talk to speak English!) can be a big drawback.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by ssb1 on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:01AM (#28807188)
I'm willing to bet that an American would understand the English spoken in Amsterdam better than that spoken in pubs or on playgrounds in Ireland.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by curation on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:24AM (#28807269)
Having lived in the Netherlands (Eindhoven - not even Amsterdam) I can confirm that the English spoken there was superior to the English I was raised in in rural Ontario where my teachers said "warshing" instead of washing. The Dutch have an incredibly faculty for language and I admire it.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by consp on Saturday October 09, 2021 @02:41AM (#28807609)
I will have to mention that this varies all over, especially the bit older generation (not exclusively though) also has some weird quirks language wise. So while they might speak and understand the English language quite well the are some parts missing. As an example I like to mention the phrasing of Bolkenstein (a Dutch National/EU politician) of economic handouts to people as "Golden showers". So while proficiency might be high, it's not always ... perfect.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by ben_w on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:18AM (#28807985)
Even among native speakers, there are often inter-generational shifts: to my father’s generation (1939) “gay” meant “festive, joyous” rather than a sexual preference; my mother used the term “glory hole” to mean “a cupboard used for storage”[0]; and her mother used “Irish” as an insult, and lived just long enough for “wireless” to start to refer to WiFi instead of longwave radio.

[0] admittedly she was starting to develop signs of Alzheimer’s at the point she called it that around me, but that was a legitimate use of the phrase when she was young.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by Digit-Al on Saturday October 09, 2021 @03:46AM (#28807852)
To be fair, we in the UK often talk about the government giving us a golden shower as well. We do phrase it "slightly" differently though :-/
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by midasuni on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:01AM (#28807916)
America calls it “trickle down”, but the principles the same
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by repsilat on Saturday October 09, 2021 @10:22AM (#28810101)
I guess if you mean "money is a small amount of liquid" then the analogy is fair? Otherwise the terms are very different -- handouts are not called "trickle down" in the US. The principle is not the same, it is literally the opposite.

"Trickle down" in the US is a term used to disparage the idea that a strong economy benefits the poor even in the absence of explicit redistribution.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by radiator on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:10AM (#28807959)
I for one don't see the problem in this particular case. To say that giving everyone money is like a golden shower, is an apt simile in my opinion.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by ido on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:52AM (#28808156)
In the off chance this is not a joke: in colloquial English this means they are pissing on you (golden being the color of urine).
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by 123pie123 on Saturday October 09, 2021 @03:21AM (#28807748)
I'm from the UK and whilst working with a handful of dutch, I was blown away not only by their extremely good english but also their ability to understand and the subitle aspects of english - eg comedy/ sarcasium/ passive aggresstion etc..
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by ido on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:53AM (#28808164)
Dutch is probably the closest language to English that isn’t a dialect of English.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by dfawcus on Saturday October 09, 2021 @08:25AM (#28809259)
No, that would have to be Scots. Especially compared to the region versions of English spoken in Northern England.

It should not be too surprising, given that Scots in large part derived from Northumbrian Old English, with various admixtures including from Scandinavia.

The versions of English spoken in Northern England also had a large input from Norse due to the Dane Law period, and that is part of what drove the change to modern English.

That said, in viewing un-dubbed (but subtitled) Dutch, Belgium, and Swedish TV programs, I have been surprised by the amount I get the gist of directly from the speech. Generally from the core Germanic portion of the languages. Belgium was also interesting due to the occasional mix of stock French phrases and words.

There were a non trivial quantity of 'English' words used, and usually for identical meaning, or a similar gloss.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by ido on Saturday October 09, 2021 @10:01AM (#28809911)
Fair enough, but Dutch is a much more “major” language than Scots (which I believe even in Scotland only a small % of the population speak as their first/mother tongue rather than English).
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by dfawcus on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:03AM (#28826276)
https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glanc...

So 1.5m out of 5.1m, which works out as 29%. I'd suggest these being folk who learnt it as their 'mother' tongue, since Scots is not taught as such in the school system.

I'm not sure how that and the 1.1% figure for use at home can be reconciled.

So if we take that 29% figure, despite being a minority, it is still in a better overall position than Gaelic.

One would expect that Scots could be fairly easily saved from extinction if it got official support, but there seems little political will within the Scottish establishment (Parliament and Government) to do so.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by sumedh on Saturday October 09, 2021 @07:33AM (#28808959)
> Dutch is probably the closest language to English that isn’t a dialect of English.

I still remember hearing two Dutch guys speak in Dutch, I thought there were speaking in English but then I realised I dont understand what they are saying.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by Y_Y on Saturday October 09, 2021 @06:29AM (#28808574)
That's an important point. Note that depending on definitions you might say (West) Frisian of Lowlands Scots claims this title.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by tremon on Saturday October 09, 2021 @08:48AM (#28809394)
Part of that is probably because we have (grandfathered) access to BBC1 and BBC2 here, so ample opportunity to learn British mannerisms and expressions.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by Kaius on Monday October 11, 2021 @07:47AM (#28827262)
Would that American be from inner city Baltimore? Or from a fishing boat off the coast of Louisiana? Or from the Ozarks perhaps?
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by WaxProlix on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:19AM (#28807251)
What about in office spaces?
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by nixass on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:29AM (#28807292)
But the US company in Europe would have far more (big majority) of non-US employees. Those employees have far better understanding of Dutch English than Irish English in every day and in corporate life
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by ithkuil on Saturday October 09, 2021 @03:15AM (#28807728)
There are some workers that would relocate with the whole family.

This means the significant other has to find a job and fit it, kids have to go to school.

While many countries have a very decent proficiency in English, you're whole family must fully invest in learning the local language. And that in addition to using English in the office of at least one of the adults (since many big companies use English officially)

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by danieldk on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:50AM (#28808137)
There are some workers that would relocate with the whole family. This means the significant other has to find a job and fit it, kids have to go to school.

Like e.g. Berlin, the large Dutch cities are very much internationally-oriented and usually it's not problem to get a job and integrate if you don't speak Dutch. Sometimes the issue is quite the opposite -- my wife wanted to learn Dutch, but people would just switch to English or German and she would have to ask them explicitly to speak Dutch.

This means the significant other has to find a job and fit it, kids have to go to school.

Kids pick up other languages in no time. A lot of friends/colleagues moved between countries (academia) and the kids would usually pick up a language in 2-3 months. I have lived in Australia for six months when I was four. When we returned, I spoke English with an aussie accent (though that's gone now ;)).

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by jan_Inkepa on Saturday October 09, 2021 @06:34AM (#28808602)
Living in Berlin if you don't speak German you are limited in employment, in healthcare, and possibly socially depending on your bubbles. Short time you may not notice it but long term you are probably best learning German. A friend of mine is struggling to find a job right now and lack of German is a big problem for them. Another friend started dating someone who's not herself in the anglophone tech bubble and can't hang out with her friends. Have translated for a friend in hospital for a operation.

Some people can deal with this, even long term, but it's definitely not for me.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by lrem on Saturday October 09, 2021 @09:44AM (#28809779)
Maybe? A Polish colleague happened to spend some time with, IIRC, a Scott and an Aussie. The two native speakers would resort occasionally to use him as an interpreter, because the native English tends to diverge out of bounds of their tolerances.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by te_chris on Saturday October 09, 2021 @02:15AM (#28807484)
All this chat about spoken and nothing about legal systems.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by aspaviento on Saturday October 09, 2021 @02:54AM (#28807661)
It doesn't matter how well they speak English if the paperwork needs to be done in a different language.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by tomp on Saturday October 09, 2021 @05:46AM (#28808354)
As someone who recently moved from the UK to Switzerland, I can attest that "English proficiency" isn't the main issue - it probably helps (it would be even harder to move to Japan where I couldn't talk to pretty much anyone, nor read anything), but the main issue is bureaucracy - everything is in German - forms, contracts, etc. - and some foreign documents have to be translated (they sometimes accept English documents, at least).
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by bojangleslover on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:06AM (#28807198)
I'm Far more comfortable as a native English speaker in Amsterdam or Copenhagen than London or NYC.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by blocked_again on Saturday October 09, 2021 @03:32AM (#28807801)
Pretty sure London or NYC has more non native English speakers than Amsterdam and Copenhagen combined. So I don't get your logic.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by Sebguer on Saturday October 09, 2021 @01:11AM (#28807220)
Why?
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by lordnacho on Saturday October 09, 2021 @02:17AM (#28807495)
There's a lot of weird accents here in the UK. Even cockney sounds odd, and that's local to London. In the same place you'll meet people from Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham, Scotland and so on, all with distinctive accents that are not so easy for your ordinary American or second language speaker.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by dfawcus on Saturday October 09, 2021 @05:14AM (#28808238)
Weird? Nah, but there is a lot of variation, and some of them can be difficult even for locals to understand.

However most of us naturally switch to some variation of RP (or as heard on the BBC) while interacting with non locals. It has often been said that there is more variation in the way that English is spoken within the UK, than there is in the rest of the world.

I once had an experience in the USA while sitting at a Restaurant bar and conversing with the barman. He eventually asked where I was from, presumably due to my manner of speech (in English).

I then went through the rigmarole of asking him if he believed I was a native speaker, or knew it as a second language. He picked native, but was unable to enumerate the short list of countries where I was possibly from, and could not guess the answer.

At no point did he try England. He was surprised when I eventually told him I was British, and from England.

It seems too many folk in the US expect that all of us sound like Hugh Grant.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by blocked_again on Saturday October 09, 2021 @03:33AM (#28807804)
Sure. But is it harder to understand than Dutch and Danish. No. Right. I also thought the same.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by pjmlp on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:14AM (#28807969)
But that happens with all languages, second language speakers only learn the high level standard, whereas natives use lots of variations.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by eru on Friday October 08, 2021 @11:34PM (#28806815)
Yes, though still not quite as compelling, because you still have to speak Dutch eg at the playground.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by GekkePrutser on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:03AM (#28807927)
It's worth mentioning that I'm Ireland most schools teach in Irish, not English.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by papower on Saturday October 09, 2021 @05:08AM (#28808222)
Another Irish resident confirming that this statement is not true.

Most schools teach in English and teach Irish as a second language. Irish is rarely used in normal day to day interactions and never at work unless you work in an Irish language related area or government department that supports Irish as an official language.

There are some niche exceptions:

- "All Irish" schools where you optionally learn through Irish

- "Gaeltachts" which are pockets of Ireland where Irish is promoted and spoken. Even here the locals will happily switch to English if you prefer.

I like Irish and wish it was more widely spoken as an everyday language but in reality you have to make an explicit effort to experience it.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by GekkePrutser on Saturday October 09, 2021 @09:17AM (#28809593)
Indeed I was living in the Gaeltacht (West of Galway). I didn't realise the number of Irish-spoken schools was so low in the rest of the country.

My colleagues all said that all the good schools were Irish spoken (as in everything taught through Irish). I extrapolated this to the rest of the country which is clearly incorrect. Sorry. But I wasn't too much into this as I don't have any kids myself.

If I did have kids I would have left Ireland anyway... At least in the area where I lived most schools were Catholic and I would never accept my child being raised with religious values. I wouldn't want to constantly have to deprogram them.

In fact one of my colleagues had a child who was giving a presentation about the dinosaurs. His parents were called to the school and told off because this was a subject that could not be discussed because evolution was "unscientific" and they shouldn't spread this kind of "nonsense" to the other pupils. Another colleague was shunned for being a "lone parent".

And this was actually a colleague who was living in Athlone, not in the Gaeltacht at all. So forgive me if I hold the Irish education system in low esteem :) Perhaps in Dublin it's better but I've only lived in the more remote areas.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by IrishTeacher on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:54AM (#28808170)
You must be thinking of an area with an unusually high number of Gaelscoils!

Speaking as a former Irish language teacher in a English speaking school in Ireland (now a software engineer in a tech multinational), I don't think most schools teach in Irish, not English. Perhaps you meant it the other way round?

2019 Irish Times: "Number of primary school pupils taught through Irish at record level". Article notes that Irish as primary language of education has risen from 6.4% in 2000 to 8.1% in 2018/19. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/number-of-primary-...

Repeated surveys have shown that secondary students taught through Irish have higher Irish language exam results, but not significantly lower English (or French, German, or Spanish) results. The vast majority of adults in Ireland cannot speak Irish fluently, or at all except for some school-learned phrases. It is not the common language of commerce.

For anyone thinking of relocating to Ireland and confused by my comment or the school system, there is a difference between 'Irish is a subject everyone does in primary/secondary school' to 'Every subject is taught through Irish in schools'. In over 90% of schools, Irish is just one subject across 7 curriculum areas in primary: https://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum/ and one of 3 mandatory subjects at secondary (with English and Maths).

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by GekkePrutser on Saturday October 09, 2021 @09:06AM (#28809521)
Oh ok, all my friends with kids had them in Irish-spoken schools. There were some English-spoken schools in the area I lived (Galway) but according to my friends all the good schools were in Irish.

But indeed Galway is exceptionally focused on Irish. I didn't know the rest of the country was different. Sorry for that.

I did notice that most Irish people have almost no grasp of the Irish language at all, which I found very weird because everyone is forced to learn it for many years (12 even according to one colleague)

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by derekmcloughlin on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:15AM (#28807976)
That’s not true. The vast majority of schools (90%+) teach in English.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by lrem on Saturday October 09, 2021 @09:50AM (#28809818)
Irish being the native language of Ireland is just barely more impactful than the native language of New York being Lenapese.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by disgruntledphd2 on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:15AM (#28807973)
That is 100% not true, the vast majority of schools in Ireland teach through English.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by jbergens on Saturday October 09, 2021 @10:50AM (#28810370)
I think Sweden and Denmark has the same level. They seem to take turn on which is the highest with 0 1% or so difference. Of course, they are further to the north end of Europe and may as such be a less suitable choice.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by fartingflamingo on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:34AM (#28808072)
If language fluency would be the most important criterium - which it isn't-, the Dutch speaking 60% of Belgium are an even more logical choice. They're buried in that ranking below the less stellar English in the French speaking part of Belgium.

Flemish people might be an even more logical choice for the EU. Similar English, Dutch and basic German fluency, plus with most uni educated people there, pretty decent French.

And if you recruit me, you'll get fluent Latvian on top :-)

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by cpursley on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:45AM (#28808108)
Are Latvians still learning Russian these days as well? In Georgia I noticed a big difference between the older (Russian) and younger (English) in their second language skills.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by fartingflamingo on Saturday October 09, 2021 @05:26AM (#28808282)
This is getting fairly off topic, but since you ask... My impressions about people born in Latvia post-1991 are numerous, but obviously anecdotal:

- Most native Latvian language speakers born in Latvia post-1991 will have low or non-existent Russian language skills, especially in the west (Kurzeme) or north. Very few native Russian speakers there. The situation in and around Riga is a little bit different. Try getting a customer-facing job in the private sector around Riga if you don't speak any Russian...

My significant other is young and speaks Russian fluently by accident. Native Latvian language, but raised in a "Khrushchevka" (Soviet apartment block) full of native Russian speaking families. Playing with the other kids meant learning Russian...

- Very very large differences amongst native Russian speaking youths in Latvia's three largest cities. A significant number hardly speak any Latvian. I've asked kids for directions that had trouble finding the words for "left" or "right". Which is somewhat surprising, given that officially, they're taking a significant part of their school in Latvian. Another group speaks both languages fluently. I've had chats over lunch with people I could hardly detect their native Russian background.

- Surprisingly, _a lot_ of young people in both groups speak abysmally bad English too.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by marvel_boy on Saturday October 09, 2021 @04:50AM (#28808138)
India in the 50th place? My company has Indian workers and they speak English very well.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by nightcracker on Saturday October 09, 2021 @05:21AM (#28808266)
I would guess that India is too large to meaningfully include in such a statistic. On average in the country English literacy could be quite poor while in the relevant tech hubs it is quite good. But that's just a hypothesis.
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by rbanffy on Saturday October 09, 2021 @08:51AM (#28809416)
In what language are the laws written?

That’s a non-trivial issue.

Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by rosywoozlechan on Friday October 08, 2021 @11:52PM (#28806903)
Do you think that this is widely known?
Re:Ireland joins OECD International Tax agreement by aserafini on Saturday October 09, 2021 @12:07AM (#28806969)
It is, yes. And would be for anyone seriously researching where to base an international office.