Since I do consider myself her friend, I tried to take her off the ledge. You are just starting there. You do not want to brand yourself from get-go. You do not know what kind of backing the guy had. HR is not your friend.

I did not hear from her for a while so I hope she took the advice. I would not dare to offer this advice to someone I don't trust.

Maybe you should think about the “advice” you give and why you are so worried about getting “cancelled”.

Glad to hear it :). It's nice to know that things aren't that bad after all.

> Maybe you should think about the “advice” you give and why you are so worried about getting “cancelled”.

Fair enough. The advice given to the OP was "when closing sentences in presentations, you finish the sentence in a way that sounds like you're asking a question. Something to pay attention to going forward". [1]

The boss than later provided feedback when she improved that in her presentations by saying "you did great. I didn't hear you going up an octave at the end of your statements, came across as much more authoritative, it's super refreshing to provide feedback and then see you attempt to act upon it."

In general, I don't really see that as sexist at all. However, the person getting that advice said "This #tonepolicing is totally okay feedback to get from my #bigtech #male leaders and not #sexist".

At this point, considering that anything seems to be able to be taken as "sexist". Maybe it's better to keep your mouth shut when giving feedback to females. Again, Why risk your entire career for one person? That's my logic at least. I hope that doesn't mean I am sexist.

1. https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html

Here's your simple test: Do you feel the same way about working with men? If not...I think you get your answer. But you already knew that didn't you?

Not working, but giving feedback. You can work with someone without giving them feedback or trying to improve them.

However, touche.

I am not sure how that improves anything at all though. The entire point is that it seems like, in today's culture, it is better for men to not give feedback to women ala the case mentioned here (Ashley) and I've personally heard many other anecdotes as well. You can also see the case that the other person who replied to my comment talked about where a female coworker decided to file for discrimination just because the male was promoted.

I guess it is sexist (1). Although, isn't that what women want? After all, "#tonepolicing is totally okay from my #bigtech #male leaders" clearly indicates that males giving advice is not appreciated at least to one female. Mentioning their gender clearly indicates that being "men" is what is also an important factor in why the feedback was bad.

The addition of anecdotes, and the fact that anything taken even remotely badly is going to result in massive repercussions for the male who was giving advice only to benefit the female. Is providing benefit to another person really so important that one should take a risk? I am not sure.

It is sexist to give feedback, and it is sexist to not give feedback.

----

1. I guess this means I am a terrible human being, I mean I don't really consider myself as sexist or not liking/hating women. I am perfectly happy to work with women, and in general would like more women in tech since the testosterone gets way too high in rooms at times. In general, I never have thought of myself as a person who's sexist.

However, I clearly did indicate a view where based on gender, I would likely choose to make a different decision in certain situations i.e. if I was giving feedback to a female, I would likely be a lot more cautious of my words and frame things so that there was no way for it to be taken badly, or more often, likely not say it because I am socially awkward enough anyway. :P

Cause there is risk for people. There is a risk they are going to make a mistake, and/or find out that they are ignorant and that society has rapidly moved on from social mores they may be accustomed to.

But I'm a woman and I'd love that kind of candid feedback from my manager. If I'm doing something that limits my career I want to know, regardless of what it is or if it's "fair".

I absolutely think we should be having discussions about how women are treated and calling out bad behavior from companies, but from a selfish, personal perspective I worry that news reports like this are going to make managers less likely to give me useful feedback.

This speaking habit is present among men too. It's also a bad speaking habit when men do it.

This is someone crying "oppression" when given simple criticism. There is oppression for sure, but it is not of people who can't take criticism.

But the phenomenon, "unnecessary querying tone", is not a dialect and it is not exclusive to female English speakers.

It is not as widespread as the habit of injecting the phrase "Oh my god" or the word "like" into sentences in English. But consider these habits. They too are something that many English-speakers do, regardless of gender or orientation or social status.

If we were to tell a speaker that injecting "Oh my god" and "like" into sentences is distracting and reduces the effectiveness of a presentation, we would be right.

Presenting is an important skill. The healthy response to constructive criticism is to reflect and improve.

With that disclaimer out of the way, I would have serious concerns about a male employee with 'valley girl' rising terminals in meetings. According to Wikipedia [1] while there are differences between the way men and women 'valleyspeak' it does in fact apply to both. I would address both the same way, seeking to understand - in open dialogue - whether there was a basis in (lack of) confidence and trying to find ways to support them further in their career development. Maybe suggest public speaking classes, especially if available through work.

[edit] further to [2] I found the way the feedback was communicated around the rising intonation friendly, positive and when addressed, the progress was kindly affirmed and remarked on. I saw no negativity in this. I did see someone who was indignant about receiving criticism, however, and took it to a level rarely seen in a professional setting. To call this the 'nuclear option' would be a bit of an understatement.

Reading the back and forth documented in [2] is an absolute train wreck. Once I got a few pages in, I started to empathize deeply with Apple ER. That's not an easy job some days.

One tweet the author posted said:

> "... when #Apple just tried I said 'No thx, Mr Suicide Nets.' If you're going to create a nervous breakdown you get to watch it unfold in real time & now I'm on Twitter again."

Referring to Tim Cook as 'Mr Suicide Nets' on Twitter seems like an insta-fire.

That's one spicy meatball of a tweet.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_girl

[2] https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html

I'm not saying there aren't some legitimate potential instances of concern documented here, or at least grey areas (director inviting Ashley to drinks alone, 'looking sad' when she brought a friend and talking about his ex-wife) - but they are glossed over, and instead the focus is on sensationalizing some things I would consider trivial. The things I would consider particularly concerning are deemphasized in Ashley's narrative [2].

I suspect some of her 2015 concerns amounted to her manager and team really just not liking her very much. I suspect the behavior Ashley is pointing to wasn't sexism (from her female manager) but rather that she went over her manager's head to the director and shit-talked her. Naturally this was filed under a "Quid-pro-quo" complaint to HR.

It appears she had an open conversation with HR for almost six years complaining about many of the folks she'd ever worked with.

Then when the seed is planted everything the gossip target says it does gets put under a microscope to confirm the suspicion that they hate you or are discriminatory or are retaliating over something or other.

I don’t really know what the fix is. I think the basecamp furore recently might be the way. Just discourage this sort of clique formation around airing grievances. But then that has the effect of not giving space for valid grievances.

Some people think they are hated because they are in $OpressedGroup, when in reality they are just insufferable.

Update: from reading through some of this, as well as her "I thought I was dying" article (https://sfbayview.com/2021/03/i-thought-i-was-dying-my-apart...) I honestly think she's having some kind of mental health crisis. Some of the logical leaps she makes are bizarre and she seems extremely paranoid.

I don't particularly think that the original complaint has much merit, (ie, being coached is not sexist) but that said I also find this sort of attitude wholly unhealthy. Is room full of paid professionals unable to distinguish the content of someone's speech from the quality of their delivery? Particularly in a case where we're just talking about tone of voice, and not difficulty with word choice or articulation? I believe it says more about the audience if they are unable to analyze an idea on its merits rather than using body language to evaluate the value of an idea.

Also, plenty of communication works better via text. For example, a book has a very different format than a speech, precisely because of the strengths of the two formats. The same is true of something like a small talk vs. a technical document. And people, with their reliance on body language of course benefit from books and technical papers quite often.

Anyhow, this is a sore point of mine, and I seldom see much agreement on my position. So, thank you very much for your polite discourse on the topic.

It's not humanly possible to do this, which is why it's such a false narrative. No one ever really knows what the "best quality idea" is, and expecting regular people to have mystical powers isn't helpful.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/media-gets-its-facts-wrong-wor...

If you had two employees, one man and one woman, and they both spoke like a “Valley Girl” which would you judge more harshly? I suspect the man, for fairly to conform to expected gender norms/stereotypes.

That’s exactly why it’s sexist.

Even if the person who got the feedback doesn't want to change, at least take the opportunity to educate the person that gave you the feedback, rather than reporting them.

Reporting it to HR doesn't address anything, and only sets things back.

I used to receive the same feedback, though I don't have what commenters or the person in the complaint describes.

My voice deviates in tone a lot, sometimes for no reason at all. The deviations sound like inflections. Additionally, I also have body language that is quite off from what people might expect. On top of that, I have a perma-scowl. I attribute it to time in the military. I've had someone in authority (two levels above me) give me this feedback fairly bluntly. I don't know if there's ever a good way to give this feedback but I would not describe that meeting as pleasant much less positive. I subsequently was not awarded a raise I was promised despite delivering on numerous advancements technologically (and monetarily), the program I was involved with was dissolved, and there was talk of reassigning me. I quit within the month and did not regret it.

A couple notes I have, some dissonance included:

- Critiquing tone and body language is straight up junk. Society has an expectation of what various things look or sound like, however, in a neuro-divergent field you should expect deviation from these things. Maybe even celebrate it.

- I did follow that directors advice. I wear thick frame glasses to cover up my scowl instead of wearing contacts. I don't cross my arms. I don't look up at the ceiling when I'm drawing on information. When I'm excited or engaged I don't let the pitch of my voice change. Does it work? Sure, but work also gets a very shallow clone of me in front of people I won't have a beer with.

Edit: if it's not clear, I'm a man.

This is all fine and good, until you have to communicate with people who are not engineers. Not being able to communicate effectively with non-tech people, whatever the reason is, is certainly going to be a career-limiting factor. You can celebrate it all you want, but you also need to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

Conversely I've also been told stuff that boiled down to fitting a mold, working customer service or delivery and being told that tattoos weren't professional while consistently seeing doctors or other 'real' professionals with tattoos.

I feel like the dividing line kind of comes down to the difference between "this is how I personally interpret and feel about your actions/communication" and "this is what I suspect an imaginary other desires".

At the same time, though, it looks like you've already experienced some consequences because of these things:

> I subsequently was not awarded a raise I was promised despite delivering on numerous advancements technologically (and monetarily), the program I was involved with was dissolved, and there was talk of reassigning me.

This is what I was talking about regarding it being a career-limiting factor, and acknowledging the situation. You can say it's bullshit all you want (and, for the record, I agree with you on that), but, in this case, you've seen first hand what can happen when you don't fit that imaginary mold. And, I would claim that, at least in this instance, it was constructively communicated to you, since you mentioned making changes and subsequently getting better results.

Whether we like it or not, people pick up on things like body language and vocal intonations. If you're lucky, not conforming to peoples' expectations there will make you seem "odd," or maybe "eccentric." If you're not, then, further down the scale of reactions you may receive could include thinking your manner of personal interaction is "weird," "unsettling," or, even "creepy." And, these are all serious problems if you ever want to hope to communicate with and be taken seriously by the majority of people.

Again, I want to reiterate that I agree with you, and this is all basically bullshit. But, like it or not, that's the game you have to play if you want to get your ideas across to people.

While the things this director rattled off were taken of note, "consequences" would've been good to stop at a conversation. They became non-constructive when they went too far, especially for something far out of my control. The biggest change I made was not interviewing at product or traditional businesses. Engineering firms tend to not have these problems. I once regarded Apple as an engineering firm, but it could be argued they've grown to such a size that they lost homogeneity that would otherwise benefit them in these scenarios.

Thanks for the thoughts regardless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal

EDIT: from the wiki article

> Because HRT has been popularized as "Valley Girl Speak", it has acquired an almost exclusively feminine gender connotation. Studies confirm that more women use HRT than men.[18] Linguist Thomas J. Linneman contends, "The more successful a man is, the less likely he is to use HRT; the more successful a woman is, the more likely she is to use uptalk".

https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-founder-elizabeth-h...

I hope that the uncertainty, lack of authority, and amateurism that I ascribe to up-speaking is rightly placed. I hope that it's just a matter of cultural norms that young women are the most likely to speak this way.

But what if there's nothing intrinsically grating about up-speaking, and instead it only reminds us of young women?

I've convinced myself that it's the former, but it wouldn't blow my mind if I were wrong.

I appreciate your counter anecdata, and I recognize that it offers a counter argument to my assertions.

I don't think that means we should take my post down. Do you truly believe that? Do you believe in such limiting of speech? Have I committed a thought crime by thinking that using up speak during a presentation is a defense mechanism? Is it possible I am sometimes right?

I hold that it's possible that I am sometimes wrong. Do you allow that perhaps I am sometimes right?

Do you think this post should be taken down too?

Are you able to introspect on your social groups usage of upspeak and ponder a reason as to it's origin? Perhaps it's advertising a set of values?

I don't want to dump on your idea too much. It's very possible there's a kernel of truth to it—I know I have noticed sometimes that people use higher voices (as a whole, rather than a cadence) when they don't want to offend. But I think we would all be better served if we learned to start with questions and calls for discussion, than trying to claim universal truth and quickly being refuted.

No beginner speaker is in complete conscious control over every detail. Nor are they expected to be, really.

> It is a subconscious defense mechanism.

Clearly they mean the "choice" is subconscious. Perhaps poor wording but only if you ignore the rest of the comment is it unclear what they mean.

Both of our ideas are speculative at best, and to attempt to discredit the GP's point via speculative refutes does nothing but polarize the conversation further.

One of my autistic-traits is that some vocal sounds, tics, and things like that are incredibly irritating to me - it's nothing to do with any mental-associations like that, it's just something my brain/body does.

...but if I were in the same position I'd probably just grin-and-bear it: it's not something worth raising a (potential) fuss over, especially the optics of being seen as being sexist or "man-splaining" to a woman how they should speak (a huge obvious no-no right there).

Whyso? At work you're expected to function as a team, and part of being a team necessarily means needing to make personal compromises for the team's sake.

In this situation, non-native English speakers are going through the monumental effort of both learning English and having to put their skills to the test every day instead of them working and communicating in their fluent language. While people with accents such that they're harder for non-native speakers to understand are being asked to have clearer enunciation - for the sake of the team.

You're not being asked to change your accent, just to have clearer enunciation (if your org's DEI team said "accent" instead of "enunciation" then their wording is unhelpfully vague or demonstrably open to misinterpretation) - and not for the benefit of people who aren't themselves doing anything for their own situation (it's not like the non-native English speakers in your workplace are insisting everyone speak their language, after all). Everyone is making a compromise for everyone's sake. There's nothing ironic about it at all - just unfortunate messaging from the DEI people.

The irony is the reduction in diversity of speaking is requested to improve the equity and inclusivity of comprehension.

I am more inclined to charitably view it as a minor inconsiderate overstep, an internal matter not for public consumption. Perhaps if it was phrased as 'enunciation' it would not have garnered any reaction.

There is no way to do what you suggest without risking a mob.

You should risk the mob. It's not ok for a DEI team to ask people to tailor their regional accents for foreigners who don't speak english well. You can also release this anonymously (it's hard for people to deny written exchanges because the results are in many inboxes).

Also on a point of misunderstanding it's not an Americans vs. Foreigners situation.

I'm not saying to take advantage of mob justice, just shine a larger light on the facts.

> Lindsay is a critic of woke culture

Riiiight.

> Lindsay announced his intention to vote for Trump in the 2020 election, citing illiberalism on the left as the reason

I'm not interested in polemics from people who voted for Trump because they feel the opposition is "illiberal".

"Hey khazhoux, maybe you /are/ sexist for thinking that a vocal trait sometimes associated with young women is a sign of amateurism."

The tricky thing about unconscious bias is of course that it's hard to know when you're carrying it. Nonetheless, I'm fairly confident that that speaking style would be considered un-authoritative by most people, and as a manager I see my job as how to help the individual whose career could be impacted by cultural norms both fair and unfair.

I like how you describe it below, as just another nervous habit in public speaking. A very annoying one.

I hear a lot of bullshit from people who focus on how they sound. Can't authority be established through work history? TBH, the more polished and confident a presenter sounds, the more likely they are to be actively bullshitting, and it's really annoying to see people fall for it "because he sounded so confident."

If you are ignoring someone's point because of the sound of voice, rather than quality of content... Yikes. I guess certain silicon valley-isms (e.g. Theranos) start to make sense if people really do that in a corporate setting.

The vocal uptilt --at least in common native-English dialects-- turns statements into questions, and/or indicates that the speaker seeks agreement or approval from the listener. Do it here and there and it's no problem. Do it for every sentence and it's very off-putting, and distracts from the content itself.

It's not radically different advice from not saying Umm every two words, not mumbling/eating half your sentence, not talking to a room in a whisper, etc.

No. We're still (relatively primitive) animals: we have plenty of well-documented "vulns" and internal biases that affect our decision-making and opinion-forming abilities - and these come from both actual-instinctive habits (like how we're generally predisposed to be biased towards selecting tall people as leaders or for promotion) and learned biases from our cultural upbringing (e.g. racism in the southern US).

Encouraging a junior team member to have more self-assurance in their presentation style is one thing but routinely asking women to behave more like men is another. This same scenario could be seen either way depending on your perspective.

To address sexism in the industry we need to be able to have a reasonable conversation about these kinds of subtle and subjective differences. There are grey areas and we won't all agree but resenting the challenge to think this through is probably not a response that's going to affect change.

This is about a single-sided, openly made accusation of sexism. Not an attempt at having a "reasonable conversation".

What does the second half of your statement mean? If who assimilated, and into what? Sorry, I feel like I'm missing some context you're relying on here.

Meaning women do not know what it is they're getting into. The ones that are successful rarely if at all cite sexism until well after their career has been established.

Before you take this as me being some moron that thinks all women are stupid, they're not. I've had plenty of women managers that knew their shit and ran their part of the company really well. It's the naive women (who aren't driven by money) that tend to fall into the trap of anything remotely corrective of their action by a man is interpreted as sexism or an affront.

Am not talking about places with an approach like Coinbase, I'm talking about favouring exchange of ideas within people but not as a way to PR the company itself

Do note, the trait being discussed has absolutely nothing to do with women having a higher voice.

Instead, it has to do with any person raising the pitch of their voice at the very end of a sentence.

In English, this 100% means "a question".

So instead of saying:

* meeting over.

upspeak means

* meeting over?

When employed with every sentence, it sounds as if one is always asking for input, or unsure of their last statement, for they are perpetually asking questions.

This is not sexist, as for at least hundreds of years, English spoken by virtually every English speaker has been this way.

This upspeak phenomenon started about 20 years ago, generally agreed upon as starting in California.

When it first started, many people discussed this in newspapers, journals, etc.

It isn't a new thing, men have also erroneously learned to do it too, and it is simply the same as many other things "one tries not to do when speaking".

The sad part is, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, male managers now feel threatened trying to help female colleagues, due to incidents like this.

They will still try to help male colleagues, which has the horrible side effect of leaving women out. Of putting women on inequal footing, when male managers who want to help, fear for their careers and safety if they try to mentor.

If I was female, I'd literally blast another woman which used something such as this, as a false sexism flag.

Women have it tough enough as it is. The growing perception, thanks to twitter and isolated events like this is, don't get involved with helping women, misery will be the outcome.

That's just sad.

I was just pointing out that "how vocal sounds are made" has some known physical differences, unlike "what colour do you prefer".

Not everyone in the meetings will be so understanding, either consciously or subconsciously.