TikTok's algorithm has introduced me to my (now) favorite neurodivergent and LGBTQ+ content makers. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of followers, some a few hundred.
I've learned more about these subjects (and myself!) than from most other sources.
The value of TikTok for me was that it linked up a bunch of neurodivergent/lgbtq+ people into a vibrant, supportive community.
Honestly, if they decide to keep it a clique... I don't mind at all. All the people I interact with there get me. I've never felt this anywhere else.
If my content is seen only by a small subset of people who are on the same page with me — awesome! That's who I'm making content in the first place.
I don't care about the ominous fear mongering. TikTok has made my life better already. It brings a lot of people together now in ways that other places don't.
More importantly, it inspires people not just to make content, but simply being themselves. And it takes away so many barriers for creating, it's insane.
Anyway, we are talking about specific things we like about TikTok as a platform that make it unique (so far), and you are talking in abstract. Anything can be potentially bad in the future. But currently, TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet.
I can give my long list of reasons why if anyone is interested.
"The thing y'all enjoy now will be crap in a few years, get off my lawn?"
I didn't come here for fortune-telling.
It's like free image hosting or free file hosting. A "better", "cleaner" hoster appears and then they either go bankrupt or they sell out.
Some stuff is just predictable at this point.
Social media should be an utility, we just haven't leveled up our civilization enough to know how to manage social media utilities. It took decades for us to do it for electricity & co.
"I wonder what makes TikTok different from other social networks regarding divisiveness" is an interesting question that adds value to the discussion. It's an invitation to ponder, research, and share perspectives.
It differs from the ones before it:
"You like it now, but give it time, it will be bad just like the rest" is not a statement of the same kind. It's little more than dull cynicism.
> See, you just made a constructive comment!
Came off as very patronizing, and even infantilizing. GP is not even part of the disagreement above. They just made a good comment. It seems like you are lumping them together with the others that you are bothered by. If you just removed the quoted section then you're reply is otherwise great.
What value does the following claim bring into the discussion: "The <new thing that you like> is going to be just as bad as <other things>, just give it time"?
It's just needless negativity.
There are so many interesting things about TikTok that one can discuss, and choosing to just be a Debbie Downer about it ("You like it, but it's bad for you!") feel like an extremely boring way to think about anything.
I mean do it, if you want. But I also have the opinion that I do not want to base my happiness and wellbeing in something that has shown to have a short timed luck - followed by darkness. And I do not see society benefitting. When I watch my young nephews as mindless TikTok zombies - I do not see them happy really. They are occupied. But happy?
I see them happy, when they do real kids stuff - running around, jumping, fighting, doing stupid things. Also gaming together. And if they watch some videos - why not. But they seem just addicted to me already. It is all about a healthy balance - and those "social media apps" have the goal to maximize engagement - that means addiction and not a healthy balance.
That doesn't mean that it's like that for everyone.
Drug analogy: people use Adderall as a party drug too, but some really benefit from having it in their day-to-day life.
Nobody said anything about "basing happiness and wellbeing" on TikTok, btw. It's a strawman claim.
What TikTok does is it connects people who wouldn't otherwise know of each other, lets many people interact with videos, and just be themselves. It's a good place to be at today.
What it already has done is it normalized people just sharing their slices of life and thoughts instead of creating highly polished content (which also exists). And the interactions are peer-to-peer.
It has the most Wen 1.0 vibe of yore out of all platforms. Except instead of ugly HTML with <blink> tags, it's your messy bedroom and untamed hair. But it's yours.
It is not. You do not own or controll the data on it. You do not know, own or control the algorithm that makes TikTok such an amazing experience for you - at the moment.
An proprietary algorithm that can change any minute, out of whatever reasons - may them be just "profit" motives, or political reasons (China is a bit famous for that).
"Nobody said anything about "basing happiness and wellbeing" on TikTok, btw. It's a strawman claim."
And sure nobody say he is doing it consciously. But this is what I observe is happening to quite some, especially young people. They get very angry, if the do not get their mobiles to get their dose of TikTok.
So yeah, drugs can be beneficial, too. Dosis facit venenum. This is my point: to me from the outside - TikTok seems to be just the same. A new addictive drug. That can be beneficial if used moderately, but mostly is not.
I am also giving you a perspective as one of those "vulnerable" populations ostensibly harmed by TikTok, which is what the comment I responded to claimed.
I am saying, as one of them, that TikTok gave these "vulnerable" something that other platforms don't.
I won't go into ”addiction” issues (if you were to take my books away when I was a kid, I'd get no less angry), I'll just accept that it's an issue for large groups of people.
My point was that TikTok is more than that (addictive entertainment). It saves lives too.
Again, I am giving you a perspective as a "vulnerable" user of the platform. This is a perspective that you do not have (as a non-user at the very least). I don't doubt that other people will have a different experience. After all, that's the entire point of having that algorithm.
What I am saying is that TikTok is #1 not only because it's an addictive fun machine for some. There's a lot more. A sense of community for "vulnerable" groups and the ability to have reach is one of those positives that the parent comment was clearly not aware of.
I have been incredibly disappointed by the queer presence on TikTok. Most of the people who I watched seemed misinformed, or were trying to sell me something. The shorter length of the medium encourages sensationalized media rather than longer, more reasoned takes. Furthermore, there's not a single worse place for vulnerable communities to exist than a Chinese app. China has demonstrated, at length, that they intend to oppress their queer population, Uighur population, Taiwanese population, student population and anyone who opposes them politically. As a queer person myself, I couldn't imagine a less comfortable platform if I tried. TikTok feels like a clinical exposure to queer identity, stripped of passion and packaged as a shiny toy. It's demeaning and degrading.
> My point was that TikTok is more than that (addictive entertainment). It saves lives too.
I think every social media platform of a certain size has "saved a life" before. I remember hanging out in an IRC chat with people who I used to drink with, and we had to call 911 for someone who had alcohol poisoning. There was only like 30-40 members, so "life saving" can really happen on any platform.
Communities can happen anywhere, too: you just need passionate people to drive them. I hope in the future there will be less corrupt/centralized alternatives, if you feel that this medium is particularly helpful for you.
That's why I am talking about the good sides of TikTok here: so that people understand them (which, currently, a lot of the people don't - including me two months ago) - and build something better.
Currently, both Instagram and Youtube have TikTok-like feeds... and miss the mark by a mile. So clearly they don't get it. There really is space for an upstart in that field.
I like the IRC comparison, because TikTok, somehow, is the closest thing in terms of giving the feel of IRC to me today.
An open-source TikTok alternative that communities can sprout it would be awesome. And for that to happen, we need to talk about what makes TikTok good.
Because creating a clone with all of the downsides is easy. Figuring out what made it the #1 app, I believe, is the most important part if you want TikTok to go away.
>The shorter length of the medium encourages sensationalized media rather than longer, more reasoned takes.
This is changing. Most videos I see are 1 minute long, many of them sped up 2x (perfect format for me). And you can upload videos up to 3 minutes long now - which is good enough for a lightning talk.
And the time limitation is what has forced people to state their points very coherently, be laconic, speak fast (or speed up videos), add subtitles and text overlays - all the things that I want (and that some successful YouTubers, like Vi Hart, already do, but most don't).
I believe there is a place for a platform with the creative limitation of short time length.
>I have been incredibly disappointed by the queer presence on TikTok. Most of the people who I watched seemed misinformed, or were trying to sell me something.
That wasn't my experience, but it's hard to say which one is representative. FWIW, the neurodivergent community there is great and well-connected.
Is TikTok good for everyone else? I don't know, but that's one subset of people for whom it seems to work really well now.
As you said, I hope the future brings us a less-centralized TikTok not controlled by an oppressive regime. But who would want to build something that (if you read the comments here!) is only seen with scorn?
Yes, using TikTok is selling your soul to the devil kind of deal. Let's figure out what people get from the devil that made TikTok the #1 app globally.
> An open-source TikTok alternative that communities can sprout it would be awesome. And for that to happen, we need to talk about what makes TikTok good. Because creating a clone with all of the downsides is easy. Figuring out what made it the #1 app, I believe, is the most important part if you want TikTok to go away.
I mean, it's already been built. Platforms like Mastodon and Matrix already exist, allowing you to build your own infinite-scroller app, along with a community to fill it. Those platforms don't lack some "magic substance" that we're missing, they just have ~20 billion dollars less ad revenue, and aren't backed by an entire nation with high-profile interest in processing terabytes of global footage. TikTok is #1 because they paid to get there (and, of course, watermarked viciously)
Is that the answer you wanted? I suspect not, so I'll save the trouble of asking. The issue starts with using the app, which is your endorsement of it's functionality. Remember, the creators you watch don't see a dime of the money made from the platform: your usage is explicitly supporting Bytedance's exploitation. Do whatever you want to do, but I'd have a hard time advocating for neurodivergence and queer visibility while simultaneously supporting their oppression.
You're trying to speak on my behalf here, so maybe listen to what I'm trying to yell you?
And it's that yes, TikTok does have plenty of "magic dust" that no other platform has.
I know of Matrix/Mastodon, and sorry, but that tech stack is waaaaay too far off the mark. They barely cut it as Slack/Facebook replacements.
Google and Facebook also have money. What they don't have is a #1 app, in spite of benefiting from the existing network effect.
Did it not occur to you that TikTok must have brought something new to the table to get to that spot?
What you're missing is that it's not the creator/follower dynamic you see on Instagram. TikTok enables and encouraged everyone to be a creator in a way that no other platform currently does.
If you want to argue about this, for God's/sanity's sake please at least use that app for a week to get some firsthand knowledge if you haven't already done so, and post a video or two.
I'm a queer creator, I'm speaking for nobody but myself here. In fact, you're the only one that's trying to get me to change your opinion so far. I frankly don't care how much you love TikTok (since I could find a school bus full of people who share the same opinion any day of the working week), but I do want you to understand why myself (as well as many other queer privacy/security advocates) are recommending that people avoid it like the plague.
> TikTok enables and encouraged everyone to be a creator in a way that no other platform currently does.
Sure. Their growth is dependent on your devotion to their app, so I don't doubt that they do their best to reduce 'inner circle' friction.
> Did it not occur to you that TikTok must have brought something new to the table to get to that spot?
To my knowledge, TikTok actually became popular because it did nothing new. Once Musical.ly went away, there needed to be a competitor that could also pay the insane license fees for the popular songs you see all over those apps. Since nobody else had that kind of money, the only viable competitor standing was the CCP, who could afford to piss money away ad-infinitum if it was going towards the oppression of marginalized groups
> please at least use that app for a week to get some firsthand knowledge
Hell no! I'm not going to use Facebook for a week to confirm that I dislike it, or reinstall MacOS for a week just to re-discover that everything I love broke after Mojave.
I'm done arguing about this (just got back from a 3 day power outage), but TikTok doesn't make me any less depressed to see proliferate. I hope you enjoy yourself, regardless.
Oddly enough, I find comments like "I don't care to talk about any negativity because this product/service is the best thing since slice bread" boring as well. What's your point?
You seem to be getting unnecessarily upset that people are raining on your parade. No one is raining on your parade, they're simply providing a counterpoint - no need to take that any farther than what it is.
Logic dictates that TikTok must be doing something differently, and doing it right.
I am trying to explain what that something is.
I am upset because as long as people here don't get what makes TikTok unique and successful, there will be no US-made alternative to TikTok. Which sucks, because it is a Chinese spying/influence machine too.
Exhibit 1: Instagram, which is now imitating TikTok, poorly, with it's video feed. Literally all content I see there is TikTok reposts.
Exhibit 2: YouTube's... whatever. Dead in the water.
Facebook and Google don't get it. HackerNews doesn't get it. And as long as that goes on, y'all are just handing our youth off to the PRC's influence.
Did I make my point clear?
I hope I made my comment negative enough for your preference, but I'll be glad to elaborate.
Anecdata?
> YouTube's... whatever. Dead in the water.
Lol what? YT is still growing and has 2.3B users...
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/youtube-statistics/
> Did I make my point clear?
You did.
> Facebook and Google don't get it. HackerNews doesn't get it.
We do. You're just not understanding OUR point. People are not disagreeing that there is somehow a better/unique experience on TikTok - in fact the opposite, most people here believe that to be true. We're saying that there is a very CLEAR trend when it comes to social media apps. In fact you said it yourself "YouTube and Instagram are crap now". The parent's original premise was that we are in a honeymoon phase with TikTok and all of the ills associated with the other social media platforms will very likely plague TikTok eventually. Worse, TikTok is heavily influenced by a regime well known for abuse that pales in comparison to civil liberties to that of the US/Facebook. In essence, this is a recipe for disaster.
> I hope I made my comment negative enough for your preference, but I'll be glad to elaborate.
Your insistent deflection and "poor me" attitude doesn't help your argument...worse, it makes me think you're a shill.
You need to understand what makes it better/unique to build better alternatives that at least won't be heavily influenced by an abusive regime.
Like, sure, let's take it as a given that TikTok will become undeniably evil in 4 years. What are we doing now to prevent a grim future?
I say, look at what makes this honeymoon phase so attractive, because as long as TikTok is the only place offering these benefits, people will go there.
Simple - not use it. It's entertainment. There are more suitable alternatives (reading books, watching movies, etc.) that have far less evil externalities.
> You need to understand what makes it better/unique to build better alternatives that at least won't be heavily influenced by an abusive regime.
I think the point there is that until a new biz model comes up for social media there is always an incentive to abuse privacy (Facebook/IG) or be abused for surveillance by a gov't.
Glad you calmed down there a bit, makes for better discourse ;)
>> What are we doing now to prevent a grim future? > Simple - not use it.
You are not using it already. Didn't stop TikTok from getting to the #1 spot. Saying "it's bad, don't use it" works about as well as abstinence-only sex-ed.
>I think the point there is that until a new biz model comes up for social media there is always an incentive to abuse privacy (Facebook/IG) or be abused for surveillance by a gov't.
OK? We aren't talking about that.
What I am saying is that people don't use a social network because of its business model and privacy stance. You might, and you are not representative (again, #1 app!).
If a non-evil, different-business-model social network springs up, it would need to have the good sides of TikTok for users to switch. Otherwise it will fail.
Do you understand that if you want TikTok to fail, you need to understand why people are flocking to it in droves? Queer/disabled/neurodivergent people in particular?
>It's entertainment.
If you only see TikTok as entertainment at this point, after I went to more than extensive detail about the value it brings beyond that, I perceive it as staying willfully ignorant by choice.
>There are more suitable alternatives (reading books, watching movies, etc.)
Suitable for whom? Again, you can only speak for yourself here. My point is that there are no suitable alternatives for large groups of people, particularly neurodivergent/disabled people and folks with mental health issues.
I have written a lot specifically to convey the point that both the value they get on TikTok (beyond entertainment) and the barriers they face elsewhere are not well understood here, and spent quite some time writing about both.
If you could do me a favor and re-read the entire thread before arguing further, I'd feel like my efforts to explain both the value and the barriers were not in vain.
>that have far less evil externalities.
FYI, shifting the burden of responsibility for the externalites onto the shoulders of consumers has not worked once. We have seen this with environmental damage, transportation, smoking, and so on. (If you want to argue about that, let's do it in a different thread, and please look up some examples before trying to reason about what "should" and "should not" work).
Summarizing, "you, switch, already, whom, should, should not". Did I miss anything?
If you know that and continue to use it, thats fine. I still used Facebook long after all the malarky about that came out (and as is this case, a lot of people, myself included, were already seeing the signs of it way before it came out). You need to pick your battles, in a world where everyone has their no #1 important issue you MUST act on, you need to decide where you can spare the mental energy.
But denying it because you want to have your cake and eat it too probably isn't healthy
The claim I specifically disagree with is that TikTok currently actively deplatforms LGBTQ+ and disabled people.
It simply was the opposite of my experience, as my suggested videos are at least 90% LGBTQ or disabled people.
I can't even compare it to other social networks, as it gives these "vulnerable" demographics an incredibly large reach today — even with the alleged censorship — and nothing else comes even close!
—Your car is bad, it has no seatbelts and airbags
—But the other cars I can get don't even run! —Why don't you agree that it's a bad car? –Because it can get me places the other cars don't —So you think that no airbags is good? —No, I thinking that a driveable car without airbags is better for me than the stationary car that has them. It's good for me to have this car, my life improved after I got it. I use it to get to my friends that live far away. —But what about those kids that took a car for a joy ride and crashed it? —Perhaps they should not have been driving —But it's a Chinese car, it spies on you! —I have to use it to reach my friends because there's no other way —So you're denying that your car will be junk in a few years? It's not healthy! —Neither is worrying about potentially grim future —But it'll be worth nothing soon! —And by that time, I'll get its worth by other means
The car analogy doesn't really work, because you don't seem to be saying "TikTok is terrible but its the best we've got". In fact, you seem to be being quite combative with others when they say something along the lines of "TikTok is terrible", which oddly enough, is kind of negative itself. But maybe I'm just misreading things, emotion can be harder to decipher through text, so I suppose only you can know.
Privacy-wise... OK, I'm an ex-FAANG, and that ship has sailed long ago. My cynical view is that TikTok is far down the line of entities that collect all the same data.
As for the car analogy, yes, this was exactly what I was trying to say; apologies for lack of clarity.
I was arguing with others who were saying "TikTok is juts as bad as all the others, and if it's not, it will be", which is an empty statement.
I'd switch to a privacy-conscious alternative in a heartbeat, and my point is that there is none, by a long shot.
And that's the thing. If you care about the downsides of TikTok, you better understand why the users go there instead of other platforms that are ostensibly "just the same".
Facebook didn't grow because it was "same" as MySpace; and everyone missing the difference is why Facebook is the giant it is today.
I'm trying to explain the value users derive from TikTok that other platforms don't provide.
Specifically as a member of the "vulnerable" groups on TikTok. I am bringing here a perspective that the person speaking on my behalf clearly doesn't have, being neither a TikTok user, nor, it seems, a member of any of these groups.
The discourse here reached a point of gaslighting where people are convincing me that I'm being "exploited" when I point out that out.
As for data privacy, you make a fair point. As I said in an earlier comment, despite my misgivings about their "take everything that isnt bolted down" approach, I continued to use Facebook even after the big hoo-ha because, like TikTok does for you, it brought me value. The only thing I would take issue with is if someone who did get value from one of those platforms and wanted to keep their privacy high ground by denying any issues, but as you've made clear, your not that person, so we can safely dismiss that now.
> And that's the thing. If you care about the downsides of TikTok, you better understand why the users go there
To be fair, this is an excellent point, and not just in the context of social media. Too often in politics for example you see peoples explanation for why the people they disagree with do and say the things they do and say is "that group are idiots/ignorant/evil, my group is intelligent/enlightened/kind". So you'll get no argument from me there.
Overall, I think this was just a bit of a miscommunication and we're actually coming from roughly the same place. I can't say I'm a big fan of TikTok, but you would probably think the same thing about Facebook or Google (I don't use facebook anymore but google still have their claws around me), so it'd be hypocritical for either of us to try to take the highground.
It's this kind of discussion that keeps bringing me back to HN!
And I am a very active Facebook user, too (the use case of keeping in touch with many friends scattered across the nation/world is covered pretty darn well there).
The value I derive from these platforms is orthogonal; there's a place for both.
I am not a fan of Google because they keep changing things and killing off the projects that I like. Believe it or not, I was completely sold on the Circles premise of Google+, and nothing has come close to that ever since. The most important downside of G+, of course, isn't privacy — it's that it no longer exists.
So I'm just waiting for someone to finally figure search out. That's the only thing keeping me there (I use an IMAP mail client, so can switch easily; Maps aren't a unique proposition; Docs aren't something I use).
I tend to write a lot in enthusiastic agreement, so I'll just say yes, if people were more willing to think about why people like Trump in 2016, we probably would not have had Trump (..nor Clinton running against him, for that matter).
The feeling of belonging, acceptance, and power drove disenfranchised poor male white rural Americans to Trump like a magnet, and the Dem party decided that they don't need to care about that because Trump is so obviously bad. It's very frustrating to think about like 100 different ways that scenario could have played out differently.
I feel like that's what I see now with this TikTok discussion. I literally had to defend against accusations of being a parasocial relationship addict for stating my point. Because, apparently, one must be a lifeless addict to be enthusiastic about that platform sigh.
My doomsday prediction is that TikTok will continue to dominate social media, with PRC being intelligent enough to wield influence softly enough for it not to be noticeable (unlike FB literally enabling genocide). Where that will land us in 10 years is an interesting question to consider.
Who knows, maybe we'll get our government to spend less on rockets, and give us healthcare and education instead. Isn't that a win for Chinese geopolitics? I would hope it is! :) Somehow.
(Off-topic, but in the same way, the Bolshevik revolution of 1917 happened with quite a lot of help from the Germans, who figured it's going to kick Russians out of the war - which it did. Whether it was good for the Russians is to debate to this day.)
To be honest when I wrote the argument that people should listen to the other sideI didn't even have Trump in mind, but it is a great point and kind of shows it is a universal issue (both politically and otherwise), though Im optimistic that things are slowly starting to change, if for no other reason than for seeing these kinds of comments :)
And you're absolutely right, it applies to TikTok too, so I apologise for being so quick to jump the gun and forget to practice what I preach, and thank you for the great discussion. It is always nice to have something which starts as an argument end so nicely, whether we agree with everything or not. Have a lovely day :)
See, at no point did I ever make claim about what other people here are, or claim to know how they feel or think.
But the implication just made regarding me and caring about the future is the kind of unprovoked hostility that I feel safe from on TikTok, but not here.
Whether I care about future, or cats, or fancy tea is not up for discussion.
And yes, pretty please, can you please get off my lawn? I didn't come here to witness mental derangement.
> If that was the point, what's the point of stating that point? "The thing y'all enjoy now will be crap in a few years, get off my lawn?"
> I didn't come here for fortune-telling.
>And yes, pretty please, can you please get off my lawn? I didn't come here to witness mental derangement
I can't love this enough. Thank you.
>Stop trying to police other people's thoughts, responses, beliefs and predictions about Tiktok.
I didn't know it could get better, but it did!
If you like doom prophecies so much, I have one for you!
Looks like the effects of climate change will take us all out before TikTok goes down the drain, so enjoy it while it (and the humanity) lasts.
Sorry but that assertion makes no sense at all. Caring about the future does not mean naive wishful thinking.
Caring about the future means analysing the likely outcomes and act so that the best ones are the most likely outcomes and the worst ones are least likely.
TikTok has a very clear and obvious attack surface. This attack surface has been known to be exploited in a certain way. Intentionally turning a blind eye to the clear and real threat it poses is the exact opposite of caring about the future because you are thus actively engaged in enabling the worst possible outcome to become a reality.
You do not make problems go away by pretending they don't exist.
Things always can go bad, and, often, do go bad. That's almost vacuously true.
What would one expect to come out of saying that, other than the feeling of smug satisfaction at some point in the future?
> What would one expect to come out of saying that, other than the feeling of smug satisfaction at some point in the future?
Why, take action to ensure things won't go bad?
Is that concept hard to understand? That preparation is the key?
I mean, why do people waste their time going out of their way to go to a crosswalk and wait for the light to go green to cross a street? They can simply jaywalk their way through life without bothering with hypothetical traffic accidents. But what value is there in doing that? People can get run over and often do get run over. That's almost vacuously true. What would one expect to come out of saying that people should cross the street in crosswalks other than the feeling of smug satisfaction at some point in the future when a jaywalking fool gets ran over but they don't as a result of thinking things through and avoiding obvious problems?
Not all of us think along the same lines.
Some might like to believe that things are perfectly fine and there is no harm in participating.
Some might realize the potential for harm, but simply not care about the outcome.
Others have a different opinion, one of caution and not participating in case things do go bad.
It has nothing to do with feelings of 'smug satisfaction'.
I do truly hope that you aren't surrounded by people for whom it would for these kinds of discussions.
Saying "TikTok bad, don't use it" is the opposite of having a discussion.
I've seen this comment echoed with Tumblr, Instagram, Musical.ly and about every other social media platform. The issue with them? Corporate interests superseded user control, and the whole thing went sideways. Nobody's telling you that you can't like TikTok, and I don't doubt you have an extensive list of all the things you like about it. Undeniably though, TikTok is stepping on the exact same banana peel that every other network did, even if they do a damn good job of controlling their western narrative.
Keep using TikTok if it makes you happy, but remember that happiness doesn't come from apps, it's a state of mind. There are healthier, less destructive ways to surround yourself with the content you love, trust me.
Repeat after me: digital friends are friends.
Personally, TikTok takes a very small fraction of my life (I go there when I don't feel I can do anything else), and I have many "real world" friends to interact with offline.
And I met some of them through social networks.
Question to consider for you: during the pandemic, when one probably couldn't see most of their friends and had to interact with them remotely, did they cease being friends?
Also, just an FYI, your comment comes off as patronizing, missing my point, and making a lot of assumptions about me.
And remember, there are healthier, less destructive ways to surround yourself with the content you love than writing such comments on HackerNew, trust me.
>TikTok is stepping on the exact same banana peel
I wouldn't count on TikTok being great in a few years too.
But what I've seen with many products, platforms, and ideas is that something good comes along, perishes, and then the uniquely good parts are gone for good because people didn't get what was good specifically, and so nobody took the torch to carry it forward.
When Facebook started, the novel idea was creating a social network that connected people who already had something in common: namely, going to the same school. That's why it blew up. Because it facilitated bonding within those communities.
It was exclusive by design (no .edu email = no Facebook, not same school = no seeing info), and that's what made it great for the initial wave of users that made it big.
TikTok blew up for a similar reason. It connects people who are already related in some way really well: either by a common interest, or - as in the case I am highlighting - by sharing the experiences of being adults with ADHD / ASD / OCD / BPD / depression / anxiety / burnout / trauma / abuse etc -- a demographic for which it's hard to connect (and be open!) with people in general, people who can't relate doubly so (and unless you know someone really well, it's not something that you can openly discuss in this society).
This is the idea I want to highlight. I want that on other platforms. I want someone to make it when TikTok goes down the drain. And so far, few seem to understand what it is that TikTok gave us -- so we might be left without a platform again in a few years.
Which would suck.
>Nobody's telling you that you can't like TikTok
Many people in the thread shamed me for liking TikTok. If you scroll up, I've been accused of (quote):
* being an addict to parasocial relationships with content creators (with many implying that I only consume that content)
* enabling oppression and exploitation of underprivileged content creators
* etc
So yes, people here are literally telling me that it's bad to like using TikTok, equating it to a moral transgression.
>There are healthier, less destructive ways to surround yourself with the content you love, trust me.
It's not about content. It's about people.
And what basis do you have for telling me to trust you here? Do you have credentials in mental health to back that up, or are you just being patronizing? Relatable experience? Genuinely curious.
Note that I am not telling anyone here what they should do, I only give my perspective as a user of the platform.
But if you do know of "less destructive" ways, pray, do tell, how would one go about connecting to a couple of dozen people who would be willing to openly talk (with voice! while showing their faces!) about how they experienced the symptoms of surviving narcissistic abuse, how they spotted it within themselves, and what helps them personally?
Without paying a dime, I must add?
I'll be checking this comment for responses, because either I'll learn something new (great!), or I see no response, and conclude that you learned something new (even better!).
Tiktok (arguably) doesn't do this, but keeps people exposed to happy bubbles. If you click away quickly from LGBTQ+ you'll see less of it? Maybe?
I'm not LGBTQ myself but I get plenty of that content. I can imagine tiktok also paying attention to this country by country (ie, Saudi Arabia probably not getting as much?).
I read these types of things as the outrage / offense response, and at least from what I can see plenty of interesting (and diverse) folks are on tiktok. My feed feels MORE diverse their then facebook for example (including more unusual things relative to my FB feed including viewpoints) Comments seem more positive as a result.
The TL;DR is that TikTok connects people who are facing the same struggles, which really helps with dealing with them.
Of course Google, Facebook, and a million other companies do the same thing, all completely disregarding user privacy in favor of selling your information for a quick buck, thereby making the internet a more hostile environment for taking advantage of the technologically uninitiated than ever before. TikTok is just the latest in a line of the worst thing to happen to the internet.
That's like saying that providing people with groceries is the secondary purpose of grocery stores, the first being collecting money in exchange for them.
Duh! How horrible! Everyone would be better off if they just grew their own food on their own farm, like in the good old days
Saying TikTok is the "worst" thing is absurd given the article we're discussing. The people clearly see value for them in TikTok that hasn't been provided by other services, and adding that to the Internet is unambiguously great.
So the value to the users TikTok brings is unique and novel, whereas any potential harm to the users doesn't really change (as everyone and their grandma are collecting all the data already).
Yesterday, an average user had, say, 11 data-collecting apps — and today, it's 12. It's not great, but very little changes for the user. Hardly the worst thing IMO.
No, not really. Like Facebook or Google, TikTok's revenue comes from selling ads. The advertisement business quite literally is based on how much personal info they can gather on yourself, and how they can leverage it to allow themselves and third parties to exploit that info to make you more vulnerable to their goals.
As far as I care, letting random people know random facts about me so that they're more likely to peddle me stuff that I actually like is not "exploitation", but that's merely an opinion.
No, not really. No one uses a platform like TikTok because they are eager to share their personal data to marketers, and most are entirely oblivious even to which personal data is the service gathering on them.
Just because a platform or service or system is free to access that does not mean that we are allowing mysterious third parties to spy on us.
When you lose privacy willingly saying "but I have nothing to hide" you also lose the ability to hide from bad actors.
You may come up with the hyperboles you wish, but the truth of the matter is that a) these companies spy on their user base, b) they don't divulge or inform you about how they spy on you, c) they obviously do not defend you or have your best interests in mind, d) they don't even clarify what they do or intend to do with the data they gather on you nor ask for your informed consent about anything.
I recall reading a case study over a decade ago about how a dad learned his daughter was pregnant because Target was sending her ads to register for a baby because she was buying things people buy early in their pregnancy like pre-natal vitamins.
The news here is reassuring to investors and the users like the parent comment are once again the prime product addicted under a para-social relationship with other addicted influencers working for the 'legendary recommendation algorithm'.
They will continue to deny how social networks like TikTok keep screwing over their users repeatedly, even when they pretend that they are 'supporting the users' when in fact the investors are waiting for their giant exit for ByteDance's IPO. After that, we will see who ByteDance (TikTok) really listens to.
To the GP comment:
> Anyway, we are talking about specific things we like about TikTok as a platform that make it unique (so far), and you are talking in abstract.
It is not 'abstract' and the comment [0] (and this related comment [1]) you replied to, has evidence of their claims and is factual. It is your 'anecdotes' which are in denial of these facts.
Facebook being a more traditional social media has people dropping info and stuff about their plain personal life whilst tiktok is more of a content platform like youtube.
Also unlike facebook and google tiktok has a thougher time following people all around the internet which is probably by far the biggest invasion of privacy.
That's quite a leap from what I said, not to mention a personal attack.
Comment [0] doesn't make any factual claims about TikTok (please, go and read it).
Comment [1] is outdated, as the policy they has changed since then. "That wall was black two years ago" is a factual claim, but the wall has been repainted since, and anyone with a pair of eyes can go take a look.
Also, as a member of the several demographics mentioned in that comment - and, ostensibly, oppressed by TikTok -, me saying that my experience was the opposite and extremely valuable should make you reconsider your words.
Have you been affected by TikTok's policy towards vulnerable people? If not, please do not speak on our behalf.
Isn't this what you just said? This is you:
> TikTok's algorithm has introduced me to my (now) favorite neurodivergent and LGBTQ+ content makers. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of followers, some a few hundred.
> All the people I interact with there get me. I've never felt this anywhere else.
From [0] 'Viewers or listeners come to consider media personalities as friends, despite having no or limited interactions with them.' [0]
Do they know you personally as if they are your close friends? If not, they will just see you essentially as a fan in a para-social relationship on a platform like TikTok. That is not a personal attack, that is the definition of what you are describing.
> Comment [0] doesn't make any factual claims about TikTok (please, go and read it).
So you are saying that there weren't any leaks happening about TikTok then, which suggests that they can suppress any content they want to or shadow-ban tags? So you trust them that they won't do it again then, since you think in your opinion that 'TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet.'
10 years ago, another social network had the same accolade.
As for my question(s) you are yet to answer, I'll make the first one more clearer for you:
>> Do they (the people you are following on TikTok) know you personally as if they are your close friends?
>> So you are saying that there weren't any leaks happening about TikTok then, which suggests that they can suppress any content they want to or shadow-ban tags? So you trust them that they won't do it again then, since you think in your opinion that 'TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet.'?
What I value on TikTok is lack of unprovoked hostility of this kind in the communities that I have discovered there.
Enjoy your day, my friend, and try to find another person to argue about.
I hope both parties in this discussion can disconnect the message from the person.
Having discussions with people we disagree with about topics we see differently is in my honest opinion the way we get out of the "us vs them" tendency to think.
All I wanted was evidence for their claims and that was it. Instead I got anecdotes, false equivalences in their arguments which is not substantiative.
I also just asked a simple question, they couldn't even answer it. For the second question they did not provide any counter evidence to my question. All my questions were left ignored.
>Right but how was that 'unprovoked hostility'?
Hostility was saying that people "like me" are addicts to parasocial relationships.
Don't see how that's hostility? Exercise:
"People like rvz are <insert something unpleasant>"
>How was disagreeing with someone with a reason being 'hostile'?
You don't get to disagree about what I am (e.g. an addict), nor the kind of relationships I'm in. It's not up for discussion by you.
So I humbly ask you to cease.
You tried to argue with a false equivalence earlier and then continue to ignore a basic question about the definition of having a 'para-social relationship' with the people you follow on TikTok which you have just described all by yourself in that long post [0] which everyone can see for themselves.
Before you try to ignore the question again, isn't what you have just described here [0] a 'para-social relationship' and fits the definition described here? [1][2]
> Hostility was saying that people "like me" are addicts to parasocial relationships.
So these creators know you personally then and don't treat you like a follower, or a fan then?, and somehow you are not 'addicted' to TikTok then?
On top of that you haven't given an answer to these questions:
>> So you are saying that there weren't any leaks happening about TikTok then, which suggests that they can suppress any content they want to or shadow-ban tags? So you trust them that they won't do it again then, since you think in your opinion that 'TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet.'?
> So I humbly ask you to cease.
So far you have given zero evidence in all of your own comments and you are actively ignoring my questions right here. Substantiate your comments by answering these questions with evidence and sources, as I'll just continue to assume.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasocial_interaction
[2] https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20...
I think it's sad that unprovoked hostility isn't recognized.
>I hope both parties in this discussion can disconnect the message from the person
The message rvz makes is about a person, namely, me. They said: "users like the parent comment are once again the prime product addicted under a para-social relationship with other addicted influencers".
That message makes a claim about me, and this is not acceptable.
>Having discussions with people we disagree with about topics we see differently is in my honest opinion the way we get out of the "us vs them" tendency to think.
You don't get to have opinions or disagreements on what goes on inside other people.
Someone calling me an addict to parasocial relationships is not an opinion we should be agreeing or disagreeing about. Unless specifically asked, by me, you don't get to opine on that.
> That message makes a claim about me, and this is not acceptable.
Some of the commenters here already have also suggested that TikTok is even more addictive than the other social networks; perhaps designed to be this way. How is it 'unacceptable' to suggest that users like yourself and influencers are also addicted as well since TikTok's recommendation algorithm is getting something right on its users over the rest of the other social networks?
So you are not addicted to TikTok then? (Despite you actively creating content on the platform and admitting it has '...made me life better already' and saying '...TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet.' and describing to have a parasocial interaction with creators with hundreds of thousands of other followers)
> Someone calling me an addict to parasocial relationships is not an opinion we should be agreeing or disagreeing about. Unless specifically asked, by me, you don't get to opine on that.
Well you put what you do on TikTok for other people right here to comment and you yourself admitted what is described by definition as a parasocial interaction. If that doesn't fit the definition, I don't know what does.
You won't answer my first question because you know that you are engaging in a para-social relationship with the people you are following on TikTok. Not even remotely a 'personal attack' a simple 'fact' that you already admitted earlier.
Given that you continue to avoid the first question, I can assume that the creators you follow don't know you and to them, you are simply a 'fan' or 'follower' of them in a para-social relationship as described in. [1]
Now for my other questions that you still haven't answered:
>> So you are saying that there weren't any leaks happening about TikTok then, which suggests that they can suppress any content they want to or shadow-ban tags? So you trust them that they won't do it again then, since you think in your opinion that 'TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet.'?
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasocial_interaction
[2] https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20...
But when did that start? Possibly earlier before the “people who attract trouble” filters were added in to the algorithms or tweaked. Now you've shown engagement with those families of content other parts of the recommendation system will be taking precedence over the negative filters. A newer user than yourself may have quite a different experience, only finding those groups through external recommendation.
> Honestly, if they decide to keep it a clique... I don't mind at all.
So now you are in the clique, you are fine with it being a clique (not just that: a clique born of external pressure to keep it quiet, not through the cliques choice) and other like you but not there yet can fend for themselves?
[I'm deliberately pulling your words towards an extreme a little here to make a point: being happy with your position in the status quo does not mean it is a good status quo, just that you exist near a local maxima]
As the userbase continues to grow, these artificial cliques will become increasingly more minority and the whole system will become a more unpleasant place for people who don't fit the supported pattern (and as they are filtering the bullied not the bullies, the supported pattern, the future majority if it isn't already, implicitly includes the bullies).
> All the people I interact with there get me. I've never felt this anywhere else.
While the filtering described above (stop bullying by hiding the people who might be bullied because it is easier than actually dealing with the bullies) can be seen to have a positive effect of keeping the knuckle-dragging numbskulls away from your communities, it also hides your communities from others like you who might need their support or could otherwise benefit from being part of them.
> but simply being themselves
As long as you don't mind being yourselves to a limited audience, where the limits are set by external pressures not your needs/desires. If you'll forgive another appeal to the extreme: tiktok filtering differences that might attract bullying seems to me not dissimilar to allowing you to be yourselves but only if you wouldn't mind terribly, being who you are in just those specific seats at the back of the bus, thanks.
---
Not that I have an axe to grind for myself here (straight, white, middle class, middle-aged, native English speaker, approaching financially comfortable, ..., about as divergent as an entirely undivergent thing) other than a bit of bullied-for-being-different as a kid (being a geek/nerd type wasn't fashionable back then) but I have friends & other contacts all over the various spectra and from what I know of their experiences and how tiktok is run and how similar things have played out over the decades, what you describe sounds to be a very short term good thing that is (and will continue to be if unchecked) an increasingly closed off part of the system, a walled garden built not to keep you safe but to keep you out of sight. Allowing yourself to be kept out of sight is not how to encourage society to move forward and be more accepting.
I joined last month.
Specifically, over a year after the article cited by the parent comment was written.
That's my point here: I don't know if their algorithms were bad in the past, they are not bad now in the way the parent comment claimed then to be.
As for the rest of your comment, you seem to miss that we're already out of sight away from TikTok, so your doomsday scenario is my yesterday. And we are so isolated that a walled garden is a huge improvement over solitude.
There's tremendous value in creating safe spaces for people to connect with people who understand each other better. HackerNews is such space for tech.
The incredible thing about TikTok is the the algorithm can connect you to the right people even if you're not consciously aware of belonging to the group.
As in "Wait, I didn't know that I'd be into programming so much until I found out what it actually is after watching all these videos, and now that I know, I enjoy interacting with software developers tremendously".
And, as I pointed out, we already have other platforms to speak out to the world (which, consistently, chooses not to listen).
What TikTok does is an unparalleled reach to speak to each other.
It's peer-to-peer way more than you'd think looking from the outside in.
But it sucks precisely because there's no other platform that gives the neurodivergent crowd a voice the way TikTok does.
This is why I'm talking about it! If the engineers in the West don't understand the value of TikTok, we'll never get a homegrown alternative.
Think about TikTok as an apartment complex with an awful landlord that sometimes kicks disabled people out...
...while still remaining the only accessible housing for disabled people in town.
Everyone here is saying that obviously it's going to turn into a slum, look how it mistreats disabled people!
And I say, please come and see for yourself how this place is different from others if you want us to move, because this goddamn slum at least has wheelchair ramps, and wherever y'all are living does not.
— and that's just off the top of my head on the content creation side. Off the top of my head.
Most importantly, it's that algorithm does a good job at bringing you the right audience, having one-click promotion tools, having detailed analytics, etc.
If you don't see this as accessibility features, well, that's my entire point.
The net result is that a TikTok post can start a conversation, with videos. And someone just talking - or just acting to audio - is first-class content. As is just showing a slice of your life and slapping some text on it.
Even if you make such content on other platforms, it'll have zero reach there. You have to do much more work to have people watch a video on IG or FB (people would just scroll past your video without playing it), or YouTube (whose UX strongly favors long videos, otherwise it's too many clicks).
The effort required to make a video for other platforms that people would see is a barrier that TikTok creators don't face.
This applies to everyone, but neurodivergent people benefit from it especially.
It isn't that the algorithms have been changed for the better. It is that they don't affect your use case. People expressing the things you want to see expressed are they and can be found if searched for, the recommendation algorithms don't have a significant effect there.
> The incredible thing about TikTok is the the algorithm can connect you to the right people even if you're not consciously aware of belonging to the group.
While the algorithm is serving you more content from those groups now you have been identified it isn't the algorithm that got you there in the first place, and once it has put you in your clique it is perfectly happy to give you more content from within that clique and serve any content you share within that clique.
If that is good for you then that is fine, but you have been digitally segregated. The algorithm doesn't mark individual items of content as being targets for bullying and so hides them from the larger population, it marks the user who posted that content (and possibly those that interacted with it too). What about people within the clique that the algorithm's filters are is assigning them to who have other interests too, and they want to express those widely? To make up a realistic example: my friend who happens to be trans puts out a great little clip based on one of Fiore's dagger plays, as does someone else who isn't (or hasn't been identified as by the TikTok) in any minority group, me for example. My clip has a greater chance of being presented by the recommendation algorithms to the whole global HEMA community, hers will likely only ever be presented to other users within the assigned clique. Nothing stops either bit of content being published, found by direct link, found by people that know us so might check our stuff specifically, and so forth, but because of the “hide users who bullies might pile on, instead of actually dealing with the bullies” filter the spread of her content will probably be more curtailed than mine because she is trans despite the content not being related to that part of her identity in any way shape or form.
> What TikTok does is an unparalleled reach to speak to each other.
Which is fine if you don't want to use the platform for anything else. You might be happy[†] being segregated into a clique by these filters, or at least otherwise unaffected by the fact because you don't want to use TikTok for anything else, but other people are inconvenienced by it, potentially significantly so.
There may be workarounds of course. Perhaps having multiple accounts. But that is asking people to make an effort to not be inconvenienced which is itself inconvenient, and the multiple accounts thing might not even work reliably as accounts could end up linked to each other in the back-end by various means either deliberate or as an emergent behaviour of tracking and classification functions.
For the avoidance of doubt: I think it is a very good thing that you have been able to “find your people”, to find an environment in which you feel safe to be you, in which you feel both understood and supported. Just be careful that this safe environment doesn't slide into becoming more of a prison, keeping you in rather than keeping negatives out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TikTok#Controversies
https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news...
It looks like you know enough to hate it without using it.
What's up with the sense of superiority here?
The "masses" do care, but if you were an active user of the platform, you'd know that nothing comes even close to what TikTok brings to the table.
E.g.: do I care that TikTok censors LGBTQ+ crowd? Absolutely.
But guess which platform allows me to connect with that demographic the most. Yup, that's still TikTok. And what I learned on that platform changed my life for the better like a magic wand.
What you say is a prime example of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Focusing only on the obvious and known downsides means being blind as to why it is the most downloaded app, which is what I try to illuminate by my comments.
And it's the #1 app not because "the masses" are stupid.
Can you elaborate further? This seems quite intense praise. What do you mean by "changed my life like a magic wand"? It's just hyperactive short videos, isn't it?
It's not.
There is a fledgling neurodivergent community (people with ADHD, ASD, etc) who openly talk about what the symptoms look like from the perspective of people who experience them, how to cope with them, and how all of this fits into the larger picture of our existence in this world.
A lot of people have never been diagnosed because their symptoms don't manifest themselves in a "typical" way. DSM is written from the perspective of "describe how your teenage son makes life inconvenient for you" when it comes to ADHD/ASD, not "which everyday experience are awfully hard for you".
Due to the abysmal state of healthcare access in the US, including mental healthcare, and persistent stigmatization of mental healthcare, self-diagnosis is now effectively the first (and the most important) step towards getting an official diagnosis and care (or simply taking advantage of all the available resources).
On top of that, normalizing the discourse surrounding mental health disorders and neurotypes, and showing how ADHD, ASD, OCD, BPD, anxiety, depression, etc. feel to the person who experiences it has an enormous impact on adults who have been struggling all their lives without ever realizing why.
Realizing both that most people don't face the same challenges (i.e. that it's easy for them to do things that are challenging to you!), and finding that you are not alone, and finding out how to deal with it, and finding a supportive community - all of that is life-changing.
In fewer words, imagine having a shrimp allergy, but living in a society that does not recognize allergies and shames people who don't eat shrimp as "weak".
So you eat shrimp every day, feel awful because your body can't handle it, and then feel guilty for not being "strong" enough. "You are just not trying hard enough!", the society tells you.
Imagine discovering a community of people who have shrimp allergies. Learning that it's a thing. Learning that you don't have to eat the same things most people do, that there's a better way to experience food. Learning that if you can't avoid it, antihistamines exist that you can take to make the experience far more bearable. Learning that really, a shrimp allergy doesn't make you worthless as a person.
That's what the neurodivergent TikTok is currently doing.
My guess is that it just shows hyperactive short meaningless videos to you because either it doesn't have enough input from you to train the algorithm - or maybe that's what you like watching on of the platform. Perhaps your community isn't on TikTok yet.
But as one of the people ostensibly "harmed" by TikTok, I find it offensive that someone would so boldly speak on my behalf when my experience has been the exact opposite.
Hope this helps.
> Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills.
1 - https://alphastar.academy/us-team-wins-1st-place-at-internat...
There was a crackdown on fraudulent H1B applications, with more RFEs being issued. That freed a lot of spots for legitimate applicants that were hogged by questionable bodyshops. It also incentivized attorneys to start looking at O-1 (and they are easier than people think for real engineers to get).
Academically, a lot was written (by foreign universities) about how the US was going to lose it's edge have a drop in applicants but the rankings didn't change during the last 4 years. I wouldn't be surprised if more people applied simply because they (erroneously) believed that admission would be a little less competitive with less applicants.
Not hard to find.
Also how does a higher rejection rate lead to brain gain? I'd imagine it discourages a would be immigrant.
I would love a system as good as FB actually is (except their site is quite heavy on a decent Laptop) which doesn't eat my data.
I wonder how many employees at these corporations previously worked at Tesla, Apple, Cisco and Vines...
In Huawei's case, the binaries shipped with the products still had the Cisco copyright strings in them!
> back in 2008 when Facebook was tiny on a global scale, there was a German €100m company called StudiVZ that dominated the social networking in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland with about 10m active users.
What happened?
With GDPR Europe is actually moving toward a tax on tech by requiring local data-centers be used. If you can't innovate, time to regulate!
German here, the problem was different. Facebook was the more attractive portal - they offered stuff like third party apps. Farmville was the death penalty for Lokalisten and xVZ, who were very vocal about not having open APIs for a long time. People naturally flocked to Facebook just to play Farmville.
That's what pretty much happened all around the world with FB/IG or in one word standardization.
Status updates, text, photos, videos etc.
I don't think this has ever been true, but perhaps it's just my social circles.
"Much smaller" will still be about 3x the US one. If that's your best bet, it's not a good one :-D
> The China thing is touchy but I want the west to beat them by being better, not by being dismissive and protectionist.
You got used to the idea that the US has the ability to be better at anything we set our mind to. For our sake, I really hope that truism to continue to be true for a long time. But unless you believe in American Exceptionalism, there are no reasons why that should be guaranteed - or even likely. China is more supportive of growth-at-all-costs, their population is willing to work harder, and the idea that Americans are more innovative hasn't been true for quite a while - look at Nio, Xiaomi, Huawei, ByteDance, and countless other examples. A lot of cutting edge stuff is coming out of China these days, with the trend only accelerating.
We might even start longing for days when we used to have a strong domestic competitor in the social media space. The same thing happened in Germany - back in 2008 when Facebook was tiny on a global scale, there was a German €100m company called StudiVZ that dominated the social networking in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland with about 10m active users. I don't have to tell you how that story ended - the company is no more and all those users are on FB/IG now. Germany and Austria also happen to now be the ground zero of the global Facebook hatred [1], and I bet you they wish they had shown their domestic company a bit more love back when this would have made a difference.
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/86d1ce50-3799-11e8-8eee-e06bde01c...