It's like free image hosting or free file hosting. A "better", "cleaner" hoster appears and then they either go bankrupt or they sell out.
Some stuff is just predictable at this point.
Social media should be an utility, we just haven't leveled up our civilization enough to know how to manage social media utilities. It took decades for us to do it for electricity & co.
"I wonder what makes TikTok different from other social networks regarding divisiveness" is an interesting question that adds value to the discussion. It's an invitation to ponder, research, and share perspectives.
It differs from the ones before it:
"You like it now, but give it time, it will be bad just like the rest" is not a statement of the same kind. It's little more than dull cynicism.
> See, you just made a constructive comment!
Came off as very patronizing, and even infantilizing. GP is not even part of the disagreement above. They just made a good comment. It seems like you are lumping them together with the others that you are bothered by. If you just removed the quoted section then you're reply is otherwise great.
What value does the following claim bring into the discussion: "The <new thing that you like> is going to be just as bad as <other things>, just give it time"?
It's just needless negativity.
There are so many interesting things about TikTok that one can discuss, and choosing to just be a Debbie Downer about it ("You like it, but it's bad for you!") feel like an extremely boring way to think about anything.
I mean do it, if you want. But I also have the opinion that I do not want to base my happiness and wellbeing in something that has shown to have a short timed luck - followed by darkness. And I do not see society benefitting. When I watch my young nephews as mindless TikTok zombies - I do not see them happy really. They are occupied. But happy?
I see them happy, when they do real kids stuff - running around, jumping, fighting, doing stupid things. Also gaming together. And if they watch some videos - why not. But they seem just addicted to me already. It is all about a healthy balance - and those "social media apps" have the goal to maximize engagement - that means addiction and not a healthy balance.
That doesn't mean that it's like that for everyone.
Drug analogy: people use Adderall as a party drug too, but some really benefit from having it in their day-to-day life.
Nobody said anything about "basing happiness and wellbeing" on TikTok, btw. It's a strawman claim.
What TikTok does is it connects people who wouldn't otherwise know of each other, lets many people interact with videos, and just be themselves. It's a good place to be at today.
What it already has done is it normalized people just sharing their slices of life and thoughts instead of creating highly polished content (which also exists). And the interactions are peer-to-peer.
It has the most Wen 1.0 vibe of yore out of all platforms. Except instead of ugly HTML with <blink> tags, it's your messy bedroom and untamed hair. But it's yours.
It is not. You do not own or controll the data on it. You do not know, own or control the algorithm that makes TikTok such an amazing experience for you - at the moment.
An proprietary algorithm that can change any minute, out of whatever reasons - may them be just "profit" motives, or political reasons (China is a bit famous for that).
"Nobody said anything about "basing happiness and wellbeing" on TikTok, btw. It's a strawman claim."
And sure nobody say he is doing it consciously. But this is what I observe is happening to quite some, especially young people. They get very angry, if the do not get their mobiles to get their dose of TikTok.
So yeah, drugs can be beneficial, too. Dosis facit venenum. This is my point: to me from the outside - TikTok seems to be just the same. A new addictive drug. That can be beneficial if used moderately, but mostly is not.
I am also giving you a perspective as one of those "vulnerable" populations ostensibly harmed by TikTok, which is what the comment I responded to claimed.
I am saying, as one of them, that TikTok gave these "vulnerable" something that other platforms don't.
I won't go into ”addiction” issues (if you were to take my books away when I was a kid, I'd get no less angry), I'll just accept that it's an issue for large groups of people.
My point was that TikTok is more than that (addictive entertainment). It saves lives too.
Again, I am giving you a perspective as a "vulnerable" user of the platform. This is a perspective that you do not have (as a non-user at the very least). I don't doubt that other people will have a different experience. After all, that's the entire point of having that algorithm.
What I am saying is that TikTok is #1 not only because it's an addictive fun machine for some. There's a lot more. A sense of community for "vulnerable" groups and the ability to have reach is one of those positives that the parent comment was clearly not aware of.
I have been incredibly disappointed by the queer presence on TikTok. Most of the people who I watched seemed misinformed, or were trying to sell me something. The shorter length of the medium encourages sensationalized media rather than longer, more reasoned takes. Furthermore, there's not a single worse place for vulnerable communities to exist than a Chinese app. China has demonstrated, at length, that they intend to oppress their queer population, Uighur population, Taiwanese population, student population and anyone who opposes them politically. As a queer person myself, I couldn't imagine a less comfortable platform if I tried. TikTok feels like a clinical exposure to queer identity, stripped of passion and packaged as a shiny toy. It's demeaning and degrading.
> My point was that TikTok is more than that (addictive entertainment). It saves lives too.
I think every social media platform of a certain size has "saved a life" before. I remember hanging out in an IRC chat with people who I used to drink with, and we had to call 911 for someone who had alcohol poisoning. There was only like 30-40 members, so "life saving" can really happen on any platform.
Communities can happen anywhere, too: you just need passionate people to drive them. I hope in the future there will be less corrupt/centralized alternatives, if you feel that this medium is particularly helpful for you.
That's why I am talking about the good sides of TikTok here: so that people understand them (which, currently, a lot of the people don't - including me two months ago) - and build something better.
Currently, both Instagram and Youtube have TikTok-like feeds... and miss the mark by a mile. So clearly they don't get it. There really is space for an upstart in that field.
I like the IRC comparison, because TikTok, somehow, is the closest thing in terms of giving the feel of IRC to me today.
An open-source TikTok alternative that communities can sprout it would be awesome. And for that to happen, we need to talk about what makes TikTok good.
Because creating a clone with all of the downsides is easy. Figuring out what made it the #1 app, I believe, is the most important part if you want TikTok to go away.
>The shorter length of the medium encourages sensationalized media rather than longer, more reasoned takes.
This is changing. Most videos I see are 1 minute long, many of them sped up 2x (perfect format for me). And you can upload videos up to 3 minutes long now - which is good enough for a lightning talk.
And the time limitation is what has forced people to state their points very coherently, be laconic, speak fast (or speed up videos), add subtitles and text overlays - all the things that I want (and that some successful YouTubers, like Vi Hart, already do, but most don't).
I believe there is a place for a platform with the creative limitation of short time length.
>I have been incredibly disappointed by the queer presence on TikTok. Most of the people who I watched seemed misinformed, or were trying to sell me something.
That wasn't my experience, but it's hard to say which one is representative. FWIW, the neurodivergent community there is great and well-connected.
Is TikTok good for everyone else? I don't know, but that's one subset of people for whom it seems to work really well now.
As you said, I hope the future brings us a less-centralized TikTok not controlled by an oppressive regime. But who would want to build something that (if you read the comments here!) is only seen with scorn?
Yes, using TikTok is selling your soul to the devil kind of deal. Let's figure out what people get from the devil that made TikTok the #1 app globally.
> An open-source TikTok alternative that communities can sprout it would be awesome. And for that to happen, we need to talk about what makes TikTok good. Because creating a clone with all of the downsides is easy. Figuring out what made it the #1 app, I believe, is the most important part if you want TikTok to go away.
I mean, it's already been built. Platforms like Mastodon and Matrix already exist, allowing you to build your own infinite-scroller app, along with a community to fill it. Those platforms don't lack some "magic substance" that we're missing, they just have ~20 billion dollars less ad revenue, and aren't backed by an entire nation with high-profile interest in processing terabytes of global footage. TikTok is #1 because they paid to get there (and, of course, watermarked viciously)
Is that the answer you wanted? I suspect not, so I'll save the trouble of asking. The issue starts with using the app, which is your endorsement of it's functionality. Remember, the creators you watch don't see a dime of the money made from the platform: your usage is explicitly supporting Bytedance's exploitation. Do whatever you want to do, but I'd have a hard time advocating for neurodivergence and queer visibility while simultaneously supporting their oppression.
You're trying to speak on my behalf here, so maybe listen to what I'm trying to yell you?
And it's that yes, TikTok does have plenty of "magic dust" that no other platform has.
I know of Matrix/Mastodon, and sorry, but that tech stack is waaaaay too far off the mark. They barely cut it as Slack/Facebook replacements.
Google and Facebook also have money. What they don't have is a #1 app, in spite of benefiting from the existing network effect.
Did it not occur to you that TikTok must have brought something new to the table to get to that spot?
What you're missing is that it's not the creator/follower dynamic you see on Instagram. TikTok enables and encouraged everyone to be a creator in a way that no other platform currently does.
If you want to argue about this, for God's/sanity's sake please at least use that app for a week to get some firsthand knowledge if you haven't already done so, and post a video or two.
I'm a queer creator, I'm speaking for nobody but myself here. In fact, you're the only one that's trying to get me to change your opinion so far. I frankly don't care how much you love TikTok (since I could find a school bus full of people who share the same opinion any day of the working week), but I do want you to understand why myself (as well as many other queer privacy/security advocates) are recommending that people avoid it like the plague.
> TikTok enables and encouraged everyone to be a creator in a way that no other platform currently does.
Sure. Their growth is dependent on your devotion to their app, so I don't doubt that they do their best to reduce 'inner circle' friction.
> Did it not occur to you that TikTok must have brought something new to the table to get to that spot?
To my knowledge, TikTok actually became popular because it did nothing new. Once Musical.ly went away, there needed to be a competitor that could also pay the insane license fees for the popular songs you see all over those apps. Since nobody else had that kind of money, the only viable competitor standing was the CCP, who could afford to piss money away ad-infinitum if it was going towards the oppression of marginalized groups
> please at least use that app for a week to get some firsthand knowledge
Hell no! I'm not going to use Facebook for a week to confirm that I dislike it, or reinstall MacOS for a week just to re-discover that everything I love broke after Mojave.
I'm done arguing about this (just got back from a 3 day power outage), but TikTok doesn't make me any less depressed to see proliferate. I hope you enjoy yourself, regardless.
Oddly enough, I find comments like "I don't care to talk about any negativity because this product/service is the best thing since slice bread" boring as well. What's your point?
You seem to be getting unnecessarily upset that people are raining on your parade. No one is raining on your parade, they're simply providing a counterpoint - no need to take that any farther than what it is.
Logic dictates that TikTok must be doing something differently, and doing it right.
I am trying to explain what that something is.
I am upset because as long as people here don't get what makes TikTok unique and successful, there will be no US-made alternative to TikTok. Which sucks, because it is a Chinese spying/influence machine too.
Exhibit 1: Instagram, which is now imitating TikTok, poorly, with it's video feed. Literally all content I see there is TikTok reposts.
Exhibit 2: YouTube's... whatever. Dead in the water.
Facebook and Google don't get it. HackerNews doesn't get it. And as long as that goes on, y'all are just handing our youth off to the PRC's influence.
Did I make my point clear?
I hope I made my comment negative enough for your preference, but I'll be glad to elaborate.
Anecdata?
> YouTube's... whatever. Dead in the water.
Lol what? YT is still growing and has 2.3B users...
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/youtube-statistics/
> Did I make my point clear?
You did.
> Facebook and Google don't get it. HackerNews doesn't get it.
We do. You're just not understanding OUR point. People are not disagreeing that there is somehow a better/unique experience on TikTok - in fact the opposite, most people here believe that to be true. We're saying that there is a very CLEAR trend when it comes to social media apps. In fact you said it yourself "YouTube and Instagram are crap now". The parent's original premise was that we are in a honeymoon phase with TikTok and all of the ills associated with the other social media platforms will very likely plague TikTok eventually. Worse, TikTok is heavily influenced by a regime well known for abuse that pales in comparison to civil liberties to that of the US/Facebook. In essence, this is a recipe for disaster.
> I hope I made my comment negative enough for your preference, but I'll be glad to elaborate.
Your insistent deflection and "poor me" attitude doesn't help your argument...worse, it makes me think you're a shill.
You need to understand what makes it better/unique to build better alternatives that at least won't be heavily influenced by an abusive regime.
Like, sure, let's take it as a given that TikTok will become undeniably evil in 4 years. What are we doing now to prevent a grim future?
I say, look at what makes this honeymoon phase so attractive, because as long as TikTok is the only place offering these benefits, people will go there.
Simple - not use it. It's entertainment. There are more suitable alternatives (reading books, watching movies, etc.) that have far less evil externalities.
> You need to understand what makes it better/unique to build better alternatives that at least won't be heavily influenced by an abusive regime.
I think the point there is that until a new biz model comes up for social media there is always an incentive to abuse privacy (Facebook/IG) or be abused for surveillance by a gov't.
Glad you calmed down there a bit, makes for better discourse ;)
>> What are we doing now to prevent a grim future? > Simple - not use it.
You are not using it already. Didn't stop TikTok from getting to the #1 spot. Saying "it's bad, don't use it" works about as well as abstinence-only sex-ed.
>I think the point there is that until a new biz model comes up for social media there is always an incentive to abuse privacy (Facebook/IG) or be abused for surveillance by a gov't.
OK? We aren't talking about that.
What I am saying is that people don't use a social network because of its business model and privacy stance. You might, and you are not representative (again, #1 app!).
If a non-evil, different-business-model social network springs up, it would need to have the good sides of TikTok for users to switch. Otherwise it will fail.
Do you understand that if you want TikTok to fail, you need to understand why people are flocking to it in droves? Queer/disabled/neurodivergent people in particular?
>It's entertainment.
If you only see TikTok as entertainment at this point, after I went to more than extensive detail about the value it brings beyond that, I perceive it as staying willfully ignorant by choice.
>There are more suitable alternatives (reading books, watching movies, etc.)
Suitable for whom? Again, you can only speak for yourself here. My point is that there are no suitable alternatives for large groups of people, particularly neurodivergent/disabled people and folks with mental health issues.
I have written a lot specifically to convey the point that both the value they get on TikTok (beyond entertainment) and the barriers they face elsewhere are not well understood here, and spent quite some time writing about both.
If you could do me a favor and re-read the entire thread before arguing further, I'd feel like my efforts to explain both the value and the barriers were not in vain.
>that have far less evil externalities.
FYI, shifting the burden of responsibility for the externalites onto the shoulders of consumers has not worked once. We have seen this with environmental damage, transportation, smoking, and so on. (If you want to argue about that, let's do it in a different thread, and please look up some examples before trying to reason about what "should" and "should not" work).
Summarizing, "you, switch, already, whom, should, should not". Did I miss anything?
If you know that and continue to use it, thats fine. I still used Facebook long after all the malarky about that came out (and as is this case, a lot of people, myself included, were already seeing the signs of it way before it came out). You need to pick your battles, in a world where everyone has their no #1 important issue you MUST act on, you need to decide where you can spare the mental energy.
But denying it because you want to have your cake and eat it too probably isn't healthy
The claim I specifically disagree with is that TikTok currently actively deplatforms LGBTQ+ and disabled people.
It simply was the opposite of my experience, as my suggested videos are at least 90% LGBTQ or disabled people.
I can't even compare it to other social networks, as it gives these "vulnerable" demographics an incredibly large reach today — even with the alleged censorship — and nothing else comes even close!
—Your car is bad, it has no seatbelts and airbags
—But the other cars I can get don't even run! —Why don't you agree that it's a bad car? –Because it can get me places the other cars don't —So you think that no airbags is good? —No, I thinking that a driveable car without airbags is better for me than the stationary car that has them. It's good for me to have this car, my life improved after I got it. I use it to get to my friends that live far away. —But what about those kids that took a car for a joy ride and crashed it? —Perhaps they should not have been driving —But it's a Chinese car, it spies on you! —I have to use it to reach my friends because there's no other way —So you're denying that your car will be junk in a few years? It's not healthy! —Neither is worrying about potentially grim future —But it'll be worth nothing soon! —And by that time, I'll get its worth by other means
The car analogy doesn't really work, because you don't seem to be saying "TikTok is terrible but its the best we've got". In fact, you seem to be being quite combative with others when they say something along the lines of "TikTok is terrible", which oddly enough, is kind of negative itself. But maybe I'm just misreading things, emotion can be harder to decipher through text, so I suppose only you can know.
Privacy-wise... OK, I'm an ex-FAANG, and that ship has sailed long ago. My cynical view is that TikTok is far down the line of entities that collect all the same data.
As for the car analogy, yes, this was exactly what I was trying to say; apologies for lack of clarity.
I was arguing with others who were saying "TikTok is juts as bad as all the others, and if it's not, it will be", which is an empty statement.
I'd switch to a privacy-conscious alternative in a heartbeat, and my point is that there is none, by a long shot.
And that's the thing. If you care about the downsides of TikTok, you better understand why the users go there instead of other platforms that are ostensibly "just the same".
Facebook didn't grow because it was "same" as MySpace; and everyone missing the difference is why Facebook is the giant it is today.
I'm trying to explain the value users derive from TikTok that other platforms don't provide.
Specifically as a member of the "vulnerable" groups on TikTok. I am bringing here a perspective that the person speaking on my behalf clearly doesn't have, being neither a TikTok user, nor, it seems, a member of any of these groups.
The discourse here reached a point of gaslighting where people are convincing me that I'm being "exploited" when I point out that out.
As for data privacy, you make a fair point. As I said in an earlier comment, despite my misgivings about their "take everything that isnt bolted down" approach, I continued to use Facebook even after the big hoo-ha because, like TikTok does for you, it brought me value. The only thing I would take issue with is if someone who did get value from one of those platforms and wanted to keep their privacy high ground by denying any issues, but as you've made clear, your not that person, so we can safely dismiss that now.
> And that's the thing. If you care about the downsides of TikTok, you better understand why the users go there
To be fair, this is an excellent point, and not just in the context of social media. Too often in politics for example you see peoples explanation for why the people they disagree with do and say the things they do and say is "that group are idiots/ignorant/evil, my group is intelligent/enlightened/kind". So you'll get no argument from me there.
Overall, I think this was just a bit of a miscommunication and we're actually coming from roughly the same place. I can't say I'm a big fan of TikTok, but you would probably think the same thing about Facebook or Google (I don't use facebook anymore but google still have their claws around me), so it'd be hypocritical for either of us to try to take the highground.
It's this kind of discussion that keeps bringing me back to HN!
And I am a very active Facebook user, too (the use case of keeping in touch with many friends scattered across the nation/world is covered pretty darn well there).
The value I derive from these platforms is orthogonal; there's a place for both.
I am not a fan of Google because they keep changing things and killing off the projects that I like. Believe it or not, I was completely sold on the Circles premise of Google+, and nothing has come close to that ever since. The most important downside of G+, of course, isn't privacy — it's that it no longer exists.
So I'm just waiting for someone to finally figure search out. That's the only thing keeping me there (I use an IMAP mail client, so can switch easily; Maps aren't a unique proposition; Docs aren't something I use).
I tend to write a lot in enthusiastic agreement, so I'll just say yes, if people were more willing to think about why people like Trump in 2016, we probably would not have had Trump (..nor Clinton running against him, for that matter).
The feeling of belonging, acceptance, and power drove disenfranchised poor male white rural Americans to Trump like a magnet, and the Dem party decided that they don't need to care about that because Trump is so obviously bad. It's very frustrating to think about like 100 different ways that scenario could have played out differently.
I feel like that's what I see now with this TikTok discussion. I literally had to defend against accusations of being a parasocial relationship addict for stating my point. Because, apparently, one must be a lifeless addict to be enthusiastic about that platform sigh.
My doomsday prediction is that TikTok will continue to dominate social media, with PRC being intelligent enough to wield influence softly enough for it not to be noticeable (unlike FB literally enabling genocide). Where that will land us in 10 years is an interesting question to consider.
Who knows, maybe we'll get our government to spend less on rockets, and give us healthcare and education instead. Isn't that a win for Chinese geopolitics? I would hope it is! :) Somehow.
(Off-topic, but in the same way, the Bolshevik revolution of 1917 happened with quite a lot of help from the Germans, who figured it's going to kick Russians out of the war - which it did. Whether it was good for the Russians is to debate to this day.)
To be honest when I wrote the argument that people should listen to the other sideI didn't even have Trump in mind, but it is a great point and kind of shows it is a universal issue (both politically and otherwise), though Im optimistic that things are slowly starting to change, if for no other reason than for seeing these kinds of comments :)
And you're absolutely right, it applies to TikTok too, so I apologise for being so quick to jump the gun and forget to practice what I preach, and thank you for the great discussion. It is always nice to have something which starts as an argument end so nicely, whether we agree with everything or not. Have a lovely day :)
See, at no point did I ever make claim about what other people here are, or claim to know how they feel or think.
But the implication just made regarding me and caring about the future is the kind of unprovoked hostility that I feel safe from on TikTok, but not here.
Whether I care about future, or cats, or fancy tea is not up for discussion.
And yes, pretty please, can you please get off my lawn? I didn't come here to witness mental derangement.
> If that was the point, what's the point of stating that point? "The thing y'all enjoy now will be crap in a few years, get off my lawn?"
> I didn't come here for fortune-telling.
>And yes, pretty please, can you please get off my lawn? I didn't come here to witness mental derangement
I can't love this enough. Thank you.
>Stop trying to police other people's thoughts, responses, beliefs and predictions about Tiktok.
I didn't know it could get better, but it did!
If you like doom prophecies so much, I have one for you!
Looks like the effects of climate change will take us all out before TikTok goes down the drain, so enjoy it while it (and the humanity) lasts.
Sorry but that assertion makes no sense at all. Caring about the future does not mean naive wishful thinking.
Caring about the future means analysing the likely outcomes and act so that the best ones are the most likely outcomes and the worst ones are least likely.
TikTok has a very clear and obvious attack surface. This attack surface has been known to be exploited in a certain way. Intentionally turning a blind eye to the clear and real threat it poses is the exact opposite of caring about the future because you are thus actively engaged in enabling the worst possible outcome to become a reality.
You do not make problems go away by pretending they don't exist.
Things always can go bad, and, often, do go bad. That's almost vacuously true.
What would one expect to come out of saying that, other than the feeling of smug satisfaction at some point in the future?
> What would one expect to come out of saying that, other than the feeling of smug satisfaction at some point in the future?
Why, take action to ensure things won't go bad?
Is that concept hard to understand? That preparation is the key?
I mean, why do people waste their time going out of their way to go to a crosswalk and wait for the light to go green to cross a street? They can simply jaywalk their way through life without bothering with hypothetical traffic accidents. But what value is there in doing that? People can get run over and often do get run over. That's almost vacuously true. What would one expect to come out of saying that people should cross the street in crosswalks other than the feeling of smug satisfaction at some point in the future when a jaywalking fool gets ran over but they don't as a result of thinking things through and avoiding obvious problems?
Not all of us think along the same lines.
Some might like to believe that things are perfectly fine and there is no harm in participating.
Some might realize the potential for harm, but simply not care about the outcome.
Others have a different opinion, one of caution and not participating in case things do go bad.
It has nothing to do with feelings of 'smug satisfaction'.
I do truly hope that you aren't surrounded by people for whom it would for these kinds of discussions.
Saying "TikTok bad, don't use it" is the opposite of having a discussion.
"The thing y'all enjoy now will be crap in a few years, get off my lawn?"
I didn't come here for fortune-telling.