Seriously? Perhaps heed the warnings? Whenever Apple tightened the reigns, thousand of apologists came to their defense. I wouldn't even have minded if they kept their obedience to personal decisions. But they extended their enlightenment to others.
And then take what actions, exactly? “Guys this is trouble” is …fine, but without “and we should therefore do”, it’s just kind of spitting into the wind.
People: Ignore warning, buy iPhone
You: "Don't buy Apple products" isn't an action.
Google phone? This is not an alternative if you care about privacy.
The allegory presented sounds insane (growing your own food) but honestly if you're not rolling your own flashed ROM on a 'droid then your privacy is dead already;
I understand throwing all your eggs in one basket is a terrible idea but Apples walled garden and heavy sandboxing was at least somewhat protective.
While the Pinephone isn't perfect yet, I would argue it will be able to replace Android/iOS in a few months.
Yeah this is the mobile phone equivalent of growing your own vegetables.
I get it, I'm a techy, but until the day is here where rooted phones aren't treated like a special case: for most people if they buy a droid then it's actually significantly worse for their personal privacy than an Apple device.
I don't want that to be the case, but until the pine phone is here and starts being a reasonable alternative; that's how it is.
Someone will have to buy the pine phone when it is not a reasonable alternative to support the effort and keep the ball rolling.
Sadly...I know. The unfortunate thing is my recommendation for my family/friends for a phone is an iPhone, because it really is the best for security/privacy today, and they at least support their phones for much longer than an Android.
> I don't want that to be the case, but until the pine phone is here and starts being a reasonable alternative; that's how it is.
Fortunately, I think that time is coming sooner than later.
It's no surprise why we got to this point.
Because that's who I'm speaking for.
The issue is that "the masses" just "go with the flow" and act like if everybody else is jumping off a cliff then it's ok to jump off a cliff too, and it is these mobs that move the markets and determine which products and services become the most popular.
However, in relatively free countries it is still possible to live one's life on one's own terms and not be in the same herd with the sheeple. It is definitely possible to live life without an iPhone and to have an Android phone with F-Droid rather than the Google Play Store as one's primary phone.
What is the follow-on? Which products should we buy then? Any phone other than Apple's? None?
It doesn't even need to be an "action". You will have to be at least conscious of what is happening.
That is not what is happening, right now ( or before that ) many are defending Apple, and also an attitude of not "my problem". Writing off any warning as either pessimistic or conspiracy. Having some healthy dose of skepticism is somewhat an unpopular view in modern day society. Especially in Tech and America.
An action could and will be taken once enough people are conscious of what is happening. Right now the scale and critical mass just isn't there (yet).
BTW I think one of the roots of our problem is that we seem to end up in these really weird "winner take all" distributions with only 2-3 main winners and rarely any serious alternatives. It happens with operating systems, browsers, it also happens within programming language communities, like Javascript, etc. Everybody piles up into one of the 2-3 most popular framework options (React, etc). Same thing for Linux distributions. etc.
It would be nice if we could figure out some sort of nudge or hack that would reduce this tendency and encourage more distribution of mass.
Issues are also being found way faster simply due to a bigger user base.
Don’t buy or use their products.
The only progress for things like this comes at the political level, through pressure on politicians or corporations. That’s where you should be spending effort if this sort of thing matters to you.
A few Linux nerds buying some fantasy spook-free glibertarian phone will not make a dent in the problem.
Still good to keep up the pressure on public officials. That any interior minister is very happy about that doesn't have to be excused. Anyone else should be more like French people.
However I do think there’s value in gentle, consistent evangelism of privacy in ways that don’t make people feel bad. Most folks actually don’t want their deeply private stuff to be accessible. I’ve found that there are good analogies and ways to think about it that folks can get on board with and start caring to some extent.
I absolutely agree that political progress is the ultimate solution. I think the only way that will happen is if enough people demand it.
Also, that spirit existed only in an adversary free environment. You may as well say the solution is for everyone to be nice to each other.
The solution is to build new technologies that are privacy preserving, transparent, don’t place trust in a central authority but are resistant to attack.
This is possible but nobody has built it yet.
Problem is you end up with a vastly inferior hardware device that costs nearly as much as an iPhone.
I’m still waiting for my Librem 5 preorder.
Would love to hear if anyone is actually using a Linux phone and enjoying it.
The Pinephone is $150/$200.
> Would love to hear if anyone is actually using a Linux phone and enjoying it.
I have one, and I throughly enjoy it! One of the neatest things about it, and I still have to wrap my head around it, is that it can do anything you can do on a desktop. SSH? No problem? Dev environment? "apt install build-essentials". Want to install XFCE? Knock yourself out!
It is still missing MMS, which is why I don't use it daily, but that should be changing much sooner than later.
In comparison my Galaxy Tab S6 is just so much more black box and some stuff just does not work with no apparent way to debug! Like, I tried to setup a samba or SSH server on it for easy data transfer, with zero success after trying all the related apps in frdoid and elsewhere. It just does not work at all! Most likely some brain dead "security" option one can't override 2without rooting the device that is impossible to track down in the mess that is Android.
Running root used to be very simple and semi-sanctioned. Now you have to essentially rootkit your phone (Magisk) for it.
Most of the AOSP programs are abandoned (thankfully ROM maintainers update them!), and you have to deal with a lot of things not working with Google Play.
You can do all these things with a $10 raspberry pi-w. It’s not obvious why it helps with having security and privacy.
The person asked: "Would love to hear if anyone is actually using a Linux phone and enjoying it."
...so I responded about what I enjoy about using a "Linux Phone". A "$10 raspberry pi-w" is not a Linux Phone.
The question didn't address "security and privacy", so I didn't add it. Though, since you brought it up, I will answer how the Pinephone "helps with having security and privacy".
- I have hardware (cut physical power) switches to kill the Microphone, cameras (independent for front and back), and Wifi/Bluetooth.
- I am running a full GNU/Linux distro that I have a lot more confidence in their want to protect users security/privacy.
- I can run software of my choosing on it (the Pinephone actually defaults to booting on an SD card! so it encourages you to experiement with OSes).
- There is serious effort to run the mainline Linux kernel on it, so it will not be artifically obsolete in 3-5 years (or be sutck on running some ancient swiss cheese kernel in 5 years like my old Pixel/Nexus devices).
- I don't have to install/link to some opaque binaries to even boot the system.
I'm sure I can think of more, but that's all I have for now.
What I have encountered is the requirements for it being a daily driver are user specific. I have seen a fair amount of users say "I need $FOO app to work", where $FOO is some an app only developed for Android/iOS (a common one is a banking app, there is almost no way that company will support a Linux phone). So I guess I would ask what your requirements are before I can say if it is daily driver ready or not.
My threshold for it being a "daily driver" is if I can fully replace the "phone" features of my Android phone, which for me, is: Calling, SMS, MMS, Voicemails. MMS is not yet UI functional, but will be sooner than later.
The good news is I am seeing the Linux Phone movement be a positive feedback loop: the more features add, the more users, and the more folks helping to add features.
So far though, they do nothing to solve the problems we are talking about. The software is not anywhere near audited, and even if it were, you are still interacting with people and services who are using unaudited software.
Many of the projects leverage a well known OS as their base (e.g. pmOS uses Alpine Linux, Mobian uses Debian), and actively ensure that anything that can be upstreamed is upstreamed. So it's not like you're downloading some random ROM off of XDA.
It’s not even close.
I actually completely agree with this.
> This is possible but nobody has built it yet.
Doesn't mean we should stop trying. Here's my $0.02 - I've been building an email solution based on Self-Sovereign Identity ideas, still in progress, but check it out: https://ubikom.cc or https://github.com/regnull/ubikom
Who is suggesting ‘stopping trying’?
To me the only thing that sounds like ‘stopping trying’ is boycotting Apple, as though that has anything whatsoever to do with the problem.
It doesn’t matter what vendor you use. The only thing you can do to help is to identify parts of the solution, explain them, and build them.
I don’t have time to check out your email solution but I hope it is part of the solution.
It became, "Sorry, AT&T carrier, AT&T rules."
I think people have a hard time seeing the ethics in the technology they choose to use. Maybe the next wave of net-natives will be able to rediscover that common thread of rebellion and resist. It's insidious, I'll give you that. It's not obvious what is being surrendered with every participation on these platforms but it doesn't take a genius to see clearly.
A strong step forward that gets nullified when Facebook buys the alternative app you're using, or when the app you're using does things as Facebook does.
You can propose all individual options you want, this is a collective issue that won't get fixed just by calls to individual action.
Chose open standards, use and contribute to FOSS, avoid social networks, get involved in your local community, etc.
No need to go to extreems or complicated plans, corporations follow the customers.
But nobody did listen. Quite the opposite. I never had a facebook account, and now today people are boasting when they leave FB. But 10 years ago ? Oh we were the paranoid extremists .
Even today my friends regularly pressure me to get whatsapp.
IANAL but we (via our elected representatives) can push a law that prohibit restrictions on execution of users' code on their own devices. Or we can split app stores from vendors and obligate them to provide access to third-party stores, like we do with IE and windows.
Also, it's completely doable to stop NSA/Prism totalitarian nonsense.
What we can do as tech people?
- raise awareness
- help people to switch from big tech vendor locks
- help people harming BT by installing adblockers, pihole etc
- participate in opensource (with donations or work)
- probably something else
The most pressing things that should be supported, to have the world I think we want:
1. Mandate open app stores. Your device, your choice. *
2. Mandate open browsers. Your device, your choice. The internet is fundamentally an extension of the OS at this point, so an free (as in speech) connection choice is a requirement for an open OS. *
3. Mandate open apps. Your device, your choice. Installing unsigned apps can be warned, but not prohibited (outside of enterprise devices).
4. Mandate configurable tracking. Your device, your choice. There must be a clear option to disable all tracking, along with an API / payment ecosystem for apps to detect this and request alternative payment. I.e. "free if advertising on + $5.99 if advertising off".
5. Mandate right to repair. The manufacturer must provide necessary technical specifications (hard or soft) for a base level of modification and repair. If the manufacturer no longer supports the device, everything must be released to the public.
* Selection must be offered at time of device setup. Installing alternatives can be warned, but not prohibited (outside of enterprise devices).
Buy a feature phone or a phone from a vendor who doesn't have this power.
Switch to Linux.
Stop buying from companies that abuse you.
Elect politicians who care about your rights.
You know what's not helpful? Attacking the messenger, regardless of how sanctimonious you think he is.
I'd argue: avoid using proprietary networks, avoid vendor lock-in with software and hardware, and use hardware that one is allowed to use their own software on. Champion using open and federated protocols for social tools.
I think solutions exist, but honestly, it isn't easy.
> Making holier than thou comments about everyone else being sheep isn't helpful
I would offer the GP comment isn't necessarily a holier than thou comment, it's a comment of frustration. Frankly, I feel the same frustration.
It's tiring to hear snide remarks of "ohh yeah, we can include you for something because you don't have an iPhone". Hell, I have openly heard, even on this forum, that people don't include folks on social conversations with EVEN THEIR OWN FAMILY because of the dreaded "green bubble". (FYI, MMS is entirely done over HTTP and SMS! How is Apple's MMS client so bad that it can't handle HTTP and SMS?).
Or there is the "why don't you have WhatsApp/Facebook/Instagram/etc." and people think your some sort of weirdo because you don't want to use those networks.
So to be honest, when I see something like that, I think "Well I'm not surprised, this is what happens when you are locked out of your own hardware".
> What are you doing to fix it?
While GP may not be doing anything, others are helping and actively working for alternatives. For example, I have been working to get the Pinephone to have MMS and Visual Voicemail support so I can use it daily. I an very fortunate to work with a lot of very talented and motivated folks who want to see it succeed.
I'm dependent, just as you say, and have no illusions about that.
Getting into this situation wasn't my decision (it was a collective "decision" of our society), and getting out of this won't be due to anything I'll personally do either.
The only difference between me and the average joe is having understood that we have a problem earlier than most.
Pretty cheap, too.
Nothing, because my phone is rooted Android.
Making holier than thou comments about everyone else being sheep isn't helpful or thought provoking. Offer an alternative if it is a bad one (looking at you Mastodon). So here's mine: we need to change the power of digital advertising. Most of the most rent seeking companies generate revenue primarily selling ads to get more people to buy more crap. I want a VAT on all revenue passing through the digital advertising pipeline. My hope is that if these things are less profitable, it will reduce the over-sized impact these companies (social, infotainment [there is no news anymore], search, etc.) have on our economy and life. People are addicted to to fomo and outrage (faux?), I don't that that will ever change but we can try to make it less profitable.