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Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by jokethrowaway on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:17PM (#27044520)
I've seen it happen in a company which was doing just fine.

It happened randomly and completely out of the blue: one software engineer mentioned he didn't believe in the gender gap and he was promptly replied 1000 words essays by other leaders in the company shutting him down, to show that "we don't tolerate certain behaviour".

Guidelines were created to avoid future political discussions in the workplace. No-one left because of it (immediately) and we sadly didn't become famous. The engineer who brought that up quit a few months after.

After that, half of the employees hated thinking there were people thinking something different from them in the company, the other half was afraid to talk in public.

Again, I don't think there was a particular situation in the company: just a naive person who likes to talk frankly and people who get offended and are quick to attack in order to defend the "safe space" for the people who share their beliefs.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by Tainnor on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:28PM (#27044595)
Maybe. But this is (was) a 60-person company. That's about the size of the company I'm currently working at. In other words, you should know everyone and interact with a sizeable chunk of these people somewhat regularly. It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over there.

(Or maybe it also shows that being a fully-remote company can have downsides, such as coworkers not socialising enough and therefore not trusting each other? Who knows. DHH certainly has championed the "remote work for everyone" approach countless times.)

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by jdlshore on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:50PM (#27045976)
> (Or maybe it also shows that being a fully-remote company can have downsides, such as coworkers not socialising enough and therefore not trusting each other? Who knows. DHH certainly has championed the "remote work for everyone" approach countless times.)

I’d bet remote work was a strong contributor. People don’t form the same humanizing attachments remotely as they do in person, in my experience.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by wyclif on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:55AM (#27046345)
I agree. For the record, I am pro-remote work and was fully onboard long before COVID, but I also suspect that the erosion of social trust can be accelerated in a company by fully remote work. It's a tradeoff that a company can either handle badly or well.

Did you read that comment about Basecamp employees "crying and screaming at their screens" after the Zoom meeting? That just sounds so much like people who are both venting their spleens and at the same time have no connection to their workplace.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by jdlshore on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @04:23PM (#27055209)
Yep, that line in particular stood out to me. It sounds like there was a lot of assuming bad faith going on. For example, taking DHH’s refusal to take a stance as condoning bad behavior, when it looked to me like he was trying to listen rather than talk, and also blindsided.

At the risk of armchair quarterbacking, the whole thing looks like a broken culture, and I get the impression nobody knew just how broken it was until now. Nor do I think any one person or action is to blame. I’d bet that it’s been festering for years.

It’s a fascinating case study, though, and I’m glad we have a view into it.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by thrownaway564 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:46PM (#27044726)
The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company

edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by SquibblesRedux on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:25PM (#27045825)
When anyone tries to prescribe language, it's time to look for the exit. For anyone who has not read the book Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)[1], or seen the movie, I strongly recommend reading or watching. George Orwell understood the power of language when he wrote about Newspeak[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by FooBarBizBazz on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:24PM (#27045469)
> husband

Yup. Pro tip: If you're at a SV-influenced company and you find yourself talking about your personal life, don't say "husband," "wife," "boyfriend," or "girlfriend;" say "partner." That signals that you're an Ally rather than an Enemy.

You'll notice other weird speech patterns too. Pay attention to them; they're meaningful.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by wyclif on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:49AM (#27046302)
I often see that peculiar speech pattern here on HN! It's like they're afraid to say 'wife' out of fear of offending the woke mob. The same people who are OK with work being a constant struggle seminar.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by shagie on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:29PM (#27052903)
I use "sibling" rather than "brother" or "sister" and "parent" rather than "mother" or "father" to reduce information leakage. "Partner" could find the same use.

This isn't any woke thing - its just a "don't reveal information that isn't necessary."

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by t0mbstone on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @02:53PM (#27054095)
Ah, yes. Let's just obfuscate every humanizing aspect of our lives to ensure we are seen as a replaceable cogs in the money making machine instead of real people with feelings.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by jyounker on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @04:13PM (#27055069)
^^^ This. So much this. My boss isn't entitle to know the details of my life, nor is the company, nor are my co-workers.

You earn the details of my life by being my friend, not through a contractual relationship.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by thrownaway564 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:30PM (#27045498)
Truth. from the "guidance" page:

"More inclusive: Spouses/partners <> Less inclusive: Wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends"

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by t0mbstone on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @02:57PM (#27054137)
But isn't your restriction of my language and how I refer to the people I love pretty much the opposite of "inclusion"?

What if my wife would prefer if I referred to her as my "wife" instead of as a generic, faceless "partner"? By insisting that I refer to her as a genderless "partner", you are failing to respect her chosen pronoun.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by joshuamorton on Thursday May 06, 2021 @01:42AM (#27059556)
This is almost certainly for product or marketing materials, and not for you talking about your personal relationships. That is Okta should not talk about building a security tool for you and your wife to use, but instead for you and your partner to use.

Because I have no clue who your partner is (or really if you have one) so I shouldn't assume until I have that information. Note that the words in the example are all plural, presumably referring to multiple other peoples' partners.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by t0mbstone on Thursday May 06, 2021 @12:32PM (#27065719)
Oh, I see what you are saying. I can definitely get behind the use of gender neutral language in product and marketing materials. That part makes sense anyways.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by evrydayhustling on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:59PM (#27046034)
Curious about the context here - is the guidance page suggesting how to refer to your own relationships, or when referring to an abstract group of relationships?
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by whywhywhywhy on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @06:59AM (#27048396)
What word do they suggest in place of 'hacker'?
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by listless on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @08:28AM (#27049027)
Do we have any examples of this D&I stuff working? All I hear about are campuses and companies literally imploding. I never hear any places that were bad, and then got better. Is there any data at all to suggest that these ideas work and result in a better world?
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by novalis78 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:48PM (#27045191)
Come to us. First of all it’s Florida and second of all you can say and think what you like. In fact unique points of view are deeply appreciated and widely supported - and engaging contrarian intellectual conversations most welcome.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by foobiekr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:10AM (#27046098)
The most crazy about this stuff in the stirring-stuff-up sense person that I know went to okta specifically because they sensed it would be a good place to engage in this behavior.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by JADev62096 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:08PM (#27045744)
It's bad where I work too. I'd call myself anti-woke. I just keep to myself. The sad thing is that I feel completely demoralized by it all. Like no one is on my side and I can't express myself at all anymore. I can't understand the people who say quit, because for every Basecamp or Coinbase there are 10,000 other companies who haven't banned it where it's taking over.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by thr0waway99x99 on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @09:15AM (#27049426)
Got a good chuckle reading the Twitter Bio of Okta's founder & CEO:

"Co-founder + CEO of @okta, proud husband + father, addicted to exercise."

Similar verbiage on their company site as well haha

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by gedy on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:34PM (#27045526)
"Husband" is banned? That's mental - I'd consider that a hostile work environment.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by prepend on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:50PM (#27044752)
Why hacker?
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by simondotau on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:21PM (#27045806)
If Paul Graham doesn't rename this site "Hackex News" tomorrow, the woke brigade must cancel it immediately!
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by prepend on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @08:14AM (#27048912)
It’s tomorrow and not renamed. Surely, his silence on this issue means that he endorses the patriarchal dominance of hackers.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by thrownaway564 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:53PM (#27044789)
their explanation: it's "gendered and not inclusive"
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by bryik on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:28PM (#27045046)
"hacker" isn't gendered.

> 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by willcipriano on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:04PM (#27045336)
My daughter will be a hacker if she wants to follow in her old mans footsteps. Please don't take that away from her.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by edoceo on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:31PM (#27045509)
mines only 6, shes defeated some child locks and found a "cheat" in one of her kid games on the iPad and presses every button on every machine she sees. Hack the planet kiddo!!
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by thrownaway564 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:16PM (#27045783)
Good! we'll need her in a few years once these kids' anxiety drives them out of the wokeforce
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by arp242 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:26PM (#27045030)
And what's wrong with husband? Or housekeeping?

How am I supposed to talk about my husband doing the housekeeping?

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by sithlord on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:00PM (#27045298)
you say

"My Man Spouse is doing the domestic science"

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by _-david-_ on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:01PM (#27045307)
Not sure about housekeeping but husband is gendered so I assume that is the "problem".
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by prepend on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:54PM (#27045246)
That seems like they don’t understand the word. I can’t think of many more communities more inclusive than hackers. It’s certainly not gendered either.

Are all gendered words banned?

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by mc32 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:07PM (#27045742)
Oh boy! No having cash cows or taking bullshit, or taking a gander, or goosing the numbers, etc., etc.

What the hell happened to us?!

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by anon7725 on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:05AM (#27046399)
What’s wrong with husband?
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by paulddraper on Friday May 07, 2021 @07:13PM (#27081872)
> husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy

wtf

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by ubercore on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:18AM (#27046144)
Anyone work at Okta that can confirm this?
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by SvenMarquardt on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:46PM (#27045952)
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by Consultant32452 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:09PM (#27045368)
I work at a Fortune 500 company that has gone woke, complete with critical race theory training. I'm literally the only white person in my department. I'm the racial minority. Do you think any of the training even considered that a possibility? Before this change in the company I had never even noticed my race in relation to my coworkers and I absolutely hate them for bringing it to my attention and forcing me against my will to focus on the fact that I'm a racial minority. I've had employers destroy my retirement plan value (pension) and others try to avoid paying me. This feels much more depraved and personal because they are attacking me psychologically. I'm on my way out.
[dead]
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by ceras on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:27AM (#27046179)
As a URM in tech, that's not my own experience. There's rarely attention drawn to the fact that I'm a minority - and I like it that way. Heterogeneity is tough with this: some individuals like and benefit from initiatives that focus on their minority status, while others don't. No group is a monolith - individuals have different needs - not to mention that experiences can differ significantly, too.

I think there's a very fine balance to strike where you want programs to reach the people who benefit -- and certainly leaders and co-workers who need to be more inclusive -- without making those you're trying to help feel uncomfortable by having it so front and center that those who'd like to sit out can't. It's a tough balance, and I've seen companies both go too far and not far enough.

All this is to say I can imagine a situation where OP's environment really is making them more uncomfortable than what many (most?) URM's experience in the work place. Can't say for sure without knowing specifics, of course. It just isn't always a case of "more is better."

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by Consultant32452 on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @08:43AM (#27049155)
I was living MLK’s dream of living in perfect racial harmony despite the fact that I was a minority and they took that away from me.

It might be forgivable if the studies showed that this hyper focus on race at work actually reduced racism, but it doesn’t. It’s just pure evil.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by ny2ko on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:03AM (#27046384)
My understanding of the initial comment and why I +1 it was that I thought it was focused on the observation that this person has been in a situation in which they are a minority, are realizing they are one and are thinking about things that they wouldn't think about before and hoping that this experience helps build empathy and better understanding of the day to day life as a URM.

The situation the person is in isn't great and leaving sounds worth doing but I didn't think that was what the response was about though I can see how the implication to not run away could be interpreted in a different way

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:48AM (#27046296)
This is of course the worst take. When I was in 4th grade we had to read a short story about a society that enforced sameness, it wasn’t the giver where they did it genetically, rather if you were smart they’d fix headphones to your ears that played a loud obnoxious noise so you couldn’t think, if you were tall or athletic they crippled you, basically they brought everyone down to the same bad level...

That’s the society you’re trying to build.

ETA: people are logging their disagreement in downvotes but I haven’t seen a counter argument to this at any point in this thread, I’m ok with the dv, just interested in hearing the opposing view.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by paulddraper on Friday May 07, 2021 @07:16PM (#27081898)
2001: Most ridiculous thing I ever read.

2021: Uh...guys...?

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @10:39AM (#27050420)
Sounds about right.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by Huggernaut on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @05:24AM (#27047844)
I imagine the downvotes are mainly because the comparison seems pretty off base, regardless of whether one agrees with the good or bad of the original post.

Comparing "you are now in a situation where you may have an opportunity to empathise with difficulties others have had" to "you are trying to build a society where more fortunate people are harmed in the name of sameness" doesn't resonate at all.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by SantalBlush on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @11:51AM (#27051475)
You are exactly right. The funny thing is that the short story in question, Harrison Bergeron, was meant as a satire of right-wing fears of slippery slopes toward sameness. It's no coincidence that the comparison is made here; the comparison is exactly what Kurt Vonnegut was making fun of when he wrote the story.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:51PM (#27053214)
Most critiques of the story entirely disagree with your interpretation. I couldn’t find anything specific about how the author meant it to be understood but it appears that most understand it as I interpreted it when I was 9 years old.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @09:16AM (#27049439)
Ah, the comparison is coming from the fact that the GP is describing a bad situation he’s in and the response is essentially “you deserve it” and “think of the starving children in Africa”. My point is that sort of thinking creates a less humane society.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by Huggernaut on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @05:48PM (#27056248)
Right, I don't really agree with your interpretation, though I can understand how you might read it that way. As I wrote above, I read it as "take this as a learning opportunity to empathise with others", which I would think leads to a _more_ humane society.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @11:28PM (#27058853)
Telling someone how to "empathize" is probably the most condescending thing that "progressives" tell others to do.

Somehow it only comes out when the person preaching it feels extreme pity for the person in need of "empathy" and most importantly the preacher is the only one who really understands how to give that empathy, no one else is able to reach their level of enlightenment. Of course this creates a problem when two such preachers are in the same room...

Additionally, most of the time the pitied person doesn't want your pity or empathy they just want to live their life and are usually pretty happy until you come along and start telling them they need empathy and how bad their life really is.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by SantalBlush on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @09:29AM (#27049557)
I am on the other side of this debate, and I have plenty of downvotes from my comments in this thread without counter arguments. That's HN in a nutshell. My advice to you is to get over it.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @10:36AM (#27050391)
I’m not complaining about the downvotes, but I’d like to understand what the disagreement is. I’m sorry that people do that. I generally will respond if I disagree instead of downvoting. I’ll take a look at your comment history and see if I have time to address it.

ETA: I’ve looked over your comments, aside from one that appears to be sarcastic everything you say has a response to it. I added my own comment to one of them as well. I think resigning ourselves to Twitter-like flame wars without actually talking things out isn’t very hn like at all.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by SantalBlush on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @10:43AM (#27050470)
It's not your fault, and besides, I received a more recent reply to one. These are heated topics that likely won't be resolved on HN comments sections.

Edit: I read your edit. It appears that in your mind, comments that disagree with you resemble a Twitter flame war, and comments agreeing with you are well articulated and thoughtful. In reality, your comments are just as negative and one-sided as the others you disparage.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @02:04PM (#27053414)
> Edit: I read your edit. It appears that in your mind, comments that disagree with you resemble a Twitter flame war, and comments agreeing with you are well articulated and thoughtful. In reality, your comments are just as negative and one-sided as the others you disparage.

Just the opposite, I welcome disagreement. I just don’t like being attacked without knowing why.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by SantalBlush on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @02:46PM (#27054010)
Not sure who downvoted you, but the fact that you characterize a downvote as an "attack" gets to the core of the problem. Namely, you seem to think even the most minor form of disagreement (a downvote) makes you some sort of victim.
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vxNsr on Thursday May 06, 2021 @10:55AM (#27064165)
Maybe we could call it a “small attack” or even a “micro-attack”... hey how about.... a micro-aggression.

I kid but obviously a downvote is a negative response to something I wrote, but without the responsibility of actually backing up why they’re having that negative response. I’m kinda lost as to why we’re even having this discussion, you appear upset that I wanted to hear why people were downvoting me. Why does that upset you?

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by ny2ko on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:01AM (#27046040)
+1. Couldn't have put this any better
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by vcavallo on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:42PM (#27044694)
> It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over there.

Yes, it absolutely is the climate here. it’s awful. tribalism, division, distrust and eagerness to demonize anyone who doesn’t tow your line.

we’re doomed

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by moduspol on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:46PM (#27044724)
We also may be reading a lot into how large this committee was.

If I were at a company of ~58 people, and ~20 of them were forming a DE&I committee to evaluate the company's vendor relationships, speakers, etc., I'd be tempted to join just to get the potential target off of my back. They're not going to fire 1/3 of the workforce, after all.

Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by thrownaway564 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:49PM (#27044744)
Our group has hours of meetings every week. One coworker was PIPd and he immediately joined the group. Less work and off pip now!
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by edoceo on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:33PM (#27045522)
a true hacker :)
Re:How Basecamp Blew Up by paulddraper on Friday May 07, 2021 @04:38PM (#27080606)
> I've seen it happen in a company which was doing just fine. It happened randomly and completely out of the blue: one software engineer mentioned he didn't believe in the gender gap

You don't have to leave it anonymous; I think most people know what Google is.

/s