That's a bad idea. His presidency is basically over. The only thing it would accomplish is to convince his diehard supporters that a coup is in fact taking place and they should respond in kind.

I am so sick of people cowering to idiots with assault rifles strapped to their chest threatening violence. If you hold the above attitude, it is working. This country cannot be held hostage because following the law will cause people to get pissed off and break shit.

25 or die!

This attitude seems like a way for the republic to die with a whimper.

His diehards are already convinced of that.

What he means is it would tip them over the edge and declare war against the government. Just like the way Ruby Ridge/Waco pushed McVeigh, only this time it would be much greater numbers willing to fight.

A couple thousand of them using bombs/weapons could cause massive amounts of continuous long-term damage. Guerilla warfare, as we've come to find out over the past 50 years, is nearly unwinnable. It would manifest as The Troubles American Edition.

McVeigh, John Brown, Bin Laden, Eric Rudolph, Kaczynski, are all the classic extremist that's willing to do whatever it takes to right what they perceive as an injustice.

Honestly, I disagree.

The strategy of not provoking the bear didn't work. The bear is provoked and attacked. Now is not the time to play dead and hope it gets bored. This bear will not get bored. This bear will happily feast, satisfied that the prey didn't put up a fight.

I don't think so. Watch, my prediction is that Trump will be gone on schedule and things will return to some semblance of normal.

What more damage will be have done, by the time he's gone on schedule?

I think that's part of what's at stake.

Trump is a grifter and a narcissist. He will not go away after the election. He will do everything he can to stay in the public eye and milk more money out of his supporters. Expect him to try to assert control over the Republican Party after the election.

Imo, the only way to deal with someone like him is to go scorched earth.

> What he means is it would tip them over the edge and declare war against the government.

Where would storming the Capitol slot in on the spectrum?

Not as bad as blowing up occupied federal buildings

There were reports that pipe bombs were found at both the RNC and DNC headquarters today.

It can get a lot worse than that. They were being "civilized" today.

To the downvoter, surely you don't think this is as bad as it can get.

> To the downvoter, surely you don't think this is as bad as it can get.

That's the argument for removing him.

We can pretty easily imagine what riots getting larger might look like. You very obviously are not thinking about what a sociopathic president coming more and more unwrapped might look like.

> What he means is it would tip them over the edge and declare war against the government.

What edge haven't they gone over already? From my reading of TD [dot] win they are 100% already there. What is being suggested is akin to negotiating with terrorists.

From these people's perspective, they are already on the losing side of a successful and massive coup, where even Mike Pence could be involved. So how does one recover from that narrative?

Guerilla warfare only works if the guerillas can hide among a sympathetic populace or in a remote area. The former seems unlikely (how many Americans are really willing to risk life or freedom for Trump) and the latter is largely ineffective because of geographic separation from targets.

Hasn't it become clear that appeasement won't work with these people?

No. Weigh the risk and reward. If you take harsh action now, you risk provoking the situation for what? He's gone in two weeks.

Just maintain order and wait it out.

It seems to me that teaching potential demagogues that they will go unpunished if it's sufficiently inconvenient is a bad lesson to teach if you want to keep a republic.

You can't impeach or have any justice done in two weeks. It's just not worth it.

If there's some kind of crime that's been committed and it can be prosecuted successfully, then by all means after he's out of office. I don't think that's the case though.

You can prevent him from pardoning the rioters. You can bar him from running again.

Impeachment actually does things other express disappointment.

I have been hearing this same shit for 4 years and look at this smoking crater.

If you take harsh action now, you make it clear to any future copy-cats that this behaviour will not be tolerated.

There's a reason why kings typically had the parts of traitors nailed to the city gate, after all.

Ridiculous. The brazen depravity of this man must be met with consequences. Life is tolerable because we agree on a system of laws to abide by. What you're saying is like claiming it's fine to cheat on an exam if it's the last week of your degree. A harsh example must be made out of Trump.

Given that this would make Mike Pence the acting president, how would that be a coup? In this story, would Mike Pence be a puppet to greater, shadowy forces?

Or impeach & convict. He’s a threat to the republic, and he has to go.

Convict takes 2/3. DC falling is more likely than the miracle that has republicans crossing party lines to alienate their monstrous base.

Both sides have monstrous bases. Have you already forgotten the summer riots?

It sucks.

I am sick and fucking tired of both sides-ism.

No. You're sick of seeing the one side you support being in the wrong and doing exactly what you despise in the opposite side. It makes one sick and fucking tired indeed.

Can you please provide examples of the liberal side trying to violently overturn the results of an election, or the liberal side murdering people in the streets like at Charlottesville or more recently in Kenosha?

No that hasn't been done by the left before as far as I know. What i know though is that last summer the BLM protests were burning buildings and looting business, if that's not violence I have no clue what the hell is.

Sorry so just to be clear, the left hasn't been "doing exactly what [I] despise in the opposite side" which is to say literally murdering people?

This is what sibling commenter meant by stop with the both-sidesism. Smashing up a Target and murdering a person are not the same thing. You're apologizing for murderers, congratulations.

Gimme a call when the left attempts to overthrow the legitimate government of the United States of America with force. Until then, don’t presume to know how I feel.

That's stupid. No impeachment process could ever finish on time.

It can be done in 30min if they want. Impeachment goes how congress wants it to, the only part of the process set in stone is the voting requirements.

Edit: oh and the 25th amendment would allow trump to object and be effectively tried in the senate. That amendment is really designed more for “the president is in a coma” than for “the president is currently trying to overthrow the government”.

If you rush impeachment, you will obliterate any productivity you sought for impeachment. The same is true for elections in that these aren't just procedural events, they are soul-defining events for a democracy, and the loss of credibility would be losing what matters most.

Another Mueller would take forever to prepare a case for the American people.

The republic is at stake and armed rioters have broken into the capital. To let the president do this and do nothing is to give up more credibility. It is to admit that the legislature is incapable of even providing for its own physical security, let alone the needs of their constituents.

I keep seeing "armed rioters" but have not seen any evidence. Could you point me to it?

I have heard reports of gunfire being exchanged through the door to the House: https://twitter.com/MEPFuller/status/1346905489561579532.

Surely that would qualify as "armed", and the "rioter" I would hope should be self-evident.

The gunfire was probably of the unarmed woman getting shot and killed: https://twitter.com/ALQadiPAL/status/1346960691278848000.

Highly doubt that it was an armed protester shooting.

> Highly doubt that it was an armed protester shooting.

Did you get that from the same place that you got the idea that the election was stolen?

No, I got it from the evidence an unarmed woman was shot and killed while the faces at the door where the "shooting" by the "armed rioters" allegedly took place were unharmed. Where did you get the idea that I believe the election was stolen? From the comment where I said "Now if we get to day three of this crap with no signs of it letting up, the National Guard unable to control the situation, and Trump actively supporting them, definitely throw him out."?

> Highly doubt that it was an armed protester shooting.

Seems more likely than an unarmed protestor shooting?

At least one gun was seized.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/washington-dc-pro...

If hundreds rioting and looting in multiple cities for multiple days for liberal causes only qualifies for "mostly peaceful protesters, this qualifies a "peaceful protesters" still.

Where were the peaceful ones? BLM was a protest movement of something like 12M people, huge protests were covered extensively with no violence whatsoever. This was a mob that pushed down gates and forced entry into the capitol building. There was no "peaceful" component that I could see.

Evidence, please. I lived in a major US city, have a friend there who's a senior-level libertarian cleaning state trooper, and he told me the protests he knew about personally were peaceful. Nor did I see violent rioters myself.

* Man pointing an AR-15: https://twitter.com/JasonRCharter/status/1346988230101528579

* Man carrying a Glock and zipties: https://twitter.com/JasonRCharter/status/1347030226845446144...

Man with AR-15 was police.

Man carrying a Glock? I don't see anything resembling a gun except on his hat.

On his right hip, it’s incredibly clear.

Rushing impeachment makes sense if it is totally clear for all involved that impeachment needs to happen.

Ideally it should be clear to everyone in Congress, yet...

From what I understand, impeachment can also bar an individual from public office again.

I'm not clear on whether that means the vote could extend past January 20th and the end result is that it goes on his permanent record.

President Johnson was impeached 3 days after the offense for which he was impeached, the senate then voted on the removal 8 days after that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson

Impeachment trial does not need to end when his term does. They can still bar him from any future office and show that the rule of law matters.

There's no reason why it would need to take more than a few minutes.

It's not going to happen, but not due to time constraints.

Usually as part of the impeachment vote, the Senate also decides if the President should be banned from holding office ever again. This would prevent a 2024 run by 45.

Wouldn't that cause him to be an even greater threat? It would "justify" an escalation.

We’re talking about someone who conjures justifications out of thin air. He doesn’t need anyone to believe him

I've played down the threat of Trump over the years. Mostly because the idea that a coup was possible was kind of laughable. That sort of attitude has given him and his supporters space to sort of play coup. As in they could say whatever they wanted because everyone, including those saying it, thought nothing would come of it.

But this is the end of play time. It's a real world consequence. And a shocking one at that. It was a violent attempt to take over the seat of power and prevent the democratic transfer of power.

It's not a play coup anymore. Trump and his supporters are an attempting an honest to goodness actual coup. He needs to face consequences. IMHO, impeachment isn't enough. More like he can peacefully hand over power or Jan 20th 12:01 PM put him on a plane to Guantanamo until such time it's safe to try him for treason.

Do you believe Trump has some super dangerous card to play when he's about to be removed from office? Because impeachment or not, I think he's about to be removed from office.

Well, he has a football...

It is not about Trump himself, but his supporters. If they are taking his election loss like this, how do you suppose they would take forceful removal from office?

You can't let their threats of violence prevent continued function of the US government

At least thousands of armchair revolutionaries will finally have their pet theories on the efficacy of the Second Amendment put to the test.

Unnecessarily and forcefully removing Trump from office prior to Biden's inauguration will only decrease the ability of the US government to function. After a few hours and only a feeble attempt to control the situation? It could be the final whimper of disgruntled Trump supporters who go home the next day. Now if we get to day three of this crap with no signs of it letting up, the National Guard unable to control the situation, and Trump actively supporting them, definitely throw him out.

They are already convinced that they're removing him forcefully from the office.

Can't impeach if the capital isn't secure.

I am sure they can convene in a bunker somewhere

Or over zoom like everybody else?

I am sitting here feeling awful and anxious about this. Thank a for the laugh. :-)

Just has to be delivered to those officials. Where ever they are.

I wrote my Representative and Senators an hour ago to urge them to impeach/convict respectively.

The bar for when incitement to violence loses its constitutionally-protected status is "incitement to imminent lawless act" (from Brandenburg v Ohio). Trump's speech earlier today probably qualifies as passing that bar. That is clearly an impeachable offense.

Ilhan Omar is apparently already writing up Articles of Impeachment: https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1346934098384793606

Would make it easier to pardon him, no?

The pardoning scenario is interesting. He may well be pardoned for federal crimes by Pence or Biden, but Presidential pardons do not extend to state crimes. It’s possible that the NY State AG might have some issues to resolve once he is out of office.

After today, it would be very hard to convince the state AGs to not prosecute him despite any ideas Biden or Pence may have.

I wonder if Pence and the cabinet have already done so, in secret? Apparently it was Pence, not Trump, who ordered in the National Guard [1], and there doesn't seem to be any requirement in 25/4 that Pence and the cabinet inform anyone but the President pro tempore and Speaker that they have done as much.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/pence-national-guard...

Terrible idea. He's out in two weeks. Why stir up his base and invite confirmation bias when he's already out the door? That would be risking a lot to gain very little.

I’m not so sure, as it would be the VP and members of the Cabinet (all Republicans) who would initiate this process. That kind of leadership in support of democracy could help de-escalate this.

It's not loyalty to the Republican party that's out there. It's loyalty to trump, it wouldn't do anything to absolve their complaints against the system.

Fine. Escalation is sometimes necessary - otherwise one can be intimidated.

Agreed. History does not tend to look favorably on those who appease bullies.

Congratulations! You just capitulated to terrorists!

Only in the same way that neutralizing Osama Bin Laden was capitulating to Al Qaeda.

Edit: I misread this exchange. Lots of pronouns flying around.

Good luck finding half the cabinet willing to paint a target on their backs for every furious Trump supporter with a gun.

And this is why we don’t negotiate with terrorists...

We may yet find that his cabinet is willing to do so for their own reasons.

You left out a very important part. If the president contests the exercise of the 25th, it gets thrown over to congress, needing a 2/3 majority to become effective. Unlikely. The die-hards will drag it out, until Trump automatically loses the presidency on January 20 and the whole thing becomes moot. Seems like a bit of a waste of time TBH. Even impeachment seems more likely to yield results within the necessary timeframe.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxxv

No. The President is out for at least 21 days (more than no minutes in this case) if the supermajority does not materialize.

It's more like the president is out for at most 21 days. The 21-day limit only applies when no vote is taken. If a vote is taken, and fails to get 2/3 in both houses, the entire process completes in the president's favor. Done. You could in theory keep the president out of power simply by failing to have a vote (the "deliberately dropped packet" approach), but there's no provision for voting over and over again on the same question without new cause. You can't just make up such a provision that would be an exception to how anything else in congress (e.g. impeachment) works.

I don't think that would solve a single thing.

All in all, there are much more pressing concerns facing the USA right now than the unimportant fallout from the election, although you'd never know it from turning on the news right now.

A sitting president ignoring election results and inciting a mob to literally attack the Federal government in an attempt to subvert the Constitution is a very pressing issue. It's hard to solve big problems with a government that ceases to abide by its own rules.

Can you point me to any evidence when he literally incited the mob to attack?

People say it was his Tweets but they were censored...

>when he literally incited the mob to attack?

I said "incited a mob to literally attack." He went up on stage, told them the presidency was being stolen, and urged them to march to the Capitol.

They then marched to the Capitol and literally attacked.

Encouraging protests isn’t inciting violence.

But thanks! Good to know all these accusations are just fake news. Just as I assumed. He did tell them to “go home” though... but most fake news media won’t report that.

Yep. Told them to go home hours after this insanity began and in the same breath continued to falsely claim the election had been stolen. Whatta guy.

In his minute-long video he spent about 1 second to tell people to go home. The rest was repeating conspiracies, and telling the people rioting that they're special. It's unbelievable.

He ended his speech by telling them to go to the capital and be strong republicans and then after they forcefully invaded the capital building he made a video saying to be nice to the cops and he loves them.

So much value in splitting hairs.

I saw a 1 minute clip of him talking where he spent 50 seconds fueling the fire with "we won this landslide election and it was stolen from us there was no way we lost Georgia" and ten seconds of "but go home and be peaceful"