Exactly. It's an amazing place to live, has good tech scene, but it's not Silicon Valley. Also the economic focus is completely different - they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses which form a significantly more resilient economy (there's a reason why Switzerland did rather well in this pandemic).

Asking why the Swiss don't invest in same industries like Californians do would be like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team.

It's a fundamentally different focus - is that so hard to understand to people living in the Valley? That not all economies see the value in javascript webpages?

I feel that analogy is wrong somehow, because:

https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/oukaimeden/

They could, and maybe they should :)

> they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses

Some of the largest companies have emerged in Switzerland.

For the sceptics: Nestlé, Roche, Novartis, BBC (now ABB), but also Swatch, Syngenta, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, etc. just to name a few.

Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell.

Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.

> and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell.

And have you worked for them? I have for some. For those who develop software it is an essential tool and the software developers closely work with natural scientists and are as appreciated as any other team member. On the other hand you won't have problems finding an American software company where developers are held in cubicles with no daylight.

I have, but not for that list in particular.

> like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team.

Ski jumping is a Nordic event not Alpine. There are a fair number of Morrocan Alpine ski racers.

>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person

This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditions for companies and people looking for work. And it's a great place to live. Why do you think Google and others have large development departments in Switzerland? And it's also good for start-ups. Have a look at e.g. https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schwe... and https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=....

Also see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev....

Just came accross the 2019 Global Innovation Index report: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf

The ranking on page xxxiv says:

1. Switzerland 2. Sweden 3. United States of America 4. Netherlands 5. United Kingdom 6. Finland 7. Denmark 8. Singapore 9. Germany

... so not too bad after all.

This "is an annual ranking of countries by their capacity for, and success in, innovation. It is published by Cornell University, INSEAD, and the World Intellectual Property Organization, in partnership with other organisations and institutions,[1]:333 and is based on both subjective and objective data derived from several sources, including the International Telecommunication Union, the World Bank and the World Economic Forum" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index).

This is not necessarily because Switzerland is high-tech friendly. There is an absolutely massive pharma industry in the country. Lots of innovation comes from there.

And you really don't think pharma qualifies as high-tech? Check e.g. for the OECD definition.

The context of the GP comments and the whole discussion, it's the "high-tech" in an IT sense of the term. Hence my remark.

The high innovation ranking of Switzerland is most certainly not due to its computer/IT-related innovation. That's the point.

> is most certainly

So you're just assuming.

You are switching the subject.

No. You are. If you have really read the referenced article you must have noticed that its title is "Is Switzerland better than Silicon Valley for software developers?" (which has a rather different meaning than the title of this post, but maybe attracts less clicks) and it is about the Swiss tech scene and the demand and attractiveness for developers. I've answered to the unfounded reproach that Switzerland was "Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges". You then claimed that pharma wasn't high-tech, which is not true and overlooks the fact that a growing number of computer scientists work for life science. From my personal experience I can tell you that there are extremely interesting challenges, and a lot of ground breaking machine learning developments happen there today. It's not enough to just quickly read the headline and then claim some stuff without any basis. Are you Swiss? Do you work in Switzerland? Do you have any relevant experience supporting your claims?

We are talking about Silicon Valley though. A specific kind of "high-tech". Regardless of what the OECD definition is, we are talking about computers/software/internet/etc.

No, it's about whether Switzerland is "Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges". Maybe you know that life science is one of the big computer, software and internet users and contributors; a lot of ground breaking machine learning developments happens in life science today.

> No, it's about whether Switzerland is "Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges"

"Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers..."

> Maybe you know that life science is one of the big computer, software and internet users and contributors; a lot of ground breaking machine learning developments happens in life science today.

Great. That's tech moving into life sciences, like tech is moving into every aspect of society. But that doesn't make life sciences a "tech field". The news industry is bringing in tech too. Doesn't make the news industry a tech field.

But whatever I'm happy that tech is making inroads in switzerland.

You didn't read the article, did you? The original title is "Is Switzerland better than Silicon Valley for software developers?" and it is about the Swiss tech scene and the demand and attractiveness for developers. It e.g. says "according to The State of European Tech 2019 study, Switzerland is maintaining a steady pace to become European leading technology country."

It then refers to the article "Here’s why Switzerland is a world innovation leader" (https://www.wearedevelopers.com/blog/heres-why-switzerland-i...).

> that doesn't make life sciences a "tech field"

Where does all this wisdom come from?

(The reason Google has an office here is because Urs Hölzle studied at ETH at knew people here.)

He made his PhD at Stanford in the nineties and had a company with Bak and others in Palo Alto and still lives there. So no, I don't think that was the reason. And apparently Google values its Zurich location so much that it is constantly being expanded, see e.g. https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/15-jahre-in-der-schweiz-so-sieh.... So obviously it's not just an office.

Not just studied; he is Swiss!

I mean, the name is kind of a giveaway ;)

Is working in Silicon Valley for some enormous multinational really that intellectually stimulating though?

When I visited Google in Silicon Valley (from Australia), I didn’t get the impression that the work was that more exciting or cutting edge.

But that said, I did notice how run down Silicon Valley and much of the US cities/suburbs are. It did not strike me as a nice place to live.

Honestly, working on stuff at scale lets me tinker and analyze in ways I never got the chance to at university IT scale. You just didn't have the time or the capacity, and the ROI wasn't there.

I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks

And there is a quote: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there (compared to Europe).

The primary advantage of the US is cultural. It is not just the anomalously high risk tolerance and wealth, but people who attempt audacious goals tend to be celebrated. Americans shed the Tall Poppy Syndrome that is a very visible feature of virtually all other European cultures, perhaps because the US was predominantly settled by "tall poppies".

After years of working in various parts of Europe, I think it distills down to this. Sufficient talent, desire, and capital exists in Europe -- it is missing no ingredients -- but society there pervasively and subtly undermines anyone who dreams of attempting something really bold. It is a shame.

To put it another way, European culture values humility over ego, and does not applaud those who manage to exploit those "lesser" than themselves quite so much.

No, you are not putting it another way. Achievement is not “exploiting those lesser than themselves”.

> Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there

Not really. My bet is on the abundance of capital (hello global reserve currency) combined with excellent universities and a cultural willingness to take risks and do bold things. People who need a safety net, such as food stamps or housing assistance, are rarely the people who start big companies. They're usually too caught up in just trying to survive day-to-day.

And a huge homogenous home market.

Yep agreed.

> they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Hey, the Swiss evolved the cuckoo clock into a wristwatch... nope, even this innovation was by two Polish and Czech immigrants.

That's from Jeremy Clarkson, innit?

Despite that quote being mostly wrong [0][1], a safety net might account for some idleness. But there's more. You might find a local variation of the Law of Jante [2], for example.

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo_clock#First_modern_cuck...

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

It's said by Orson Welles' character in "The Third Man" (1949). Famous quote, allegedly ad-libbed: https://youtu.be/I8RW3K3hhWU

Cuckoo clocks originated in the Black Forest in Germany, north of the Swiss border. People associate them with Switzerland because of innovative marketing!

It’s not like Switzerland has one of the highest number of nobel prize and patent per capita in the world... That’s really not a spot on cliché quote...

If you have a lot to lose... My biggest change was the lose of appetite for risk when I moved to a first world country. When you have a comfortable life it’s hard to kick out of it.

I don't know how egalitarian it is. Having visited Geneva and spoken with many people there about the crazy high cost of living - it seems that most low wage earners survive by living in nearby French towns and commuting in to work. That's an economy maintained by the indentured servitude of non-native people.

The commute of most of those workers is usually less than half of what most rockstars of Sillicon Valley need to endure, not to mention that the public transport extends to border towns in France and is significantly better than the one in SV. Geneva lies directly on the border so those towns are way closer to most workplaces than Oakland is to San Francisco.

The issue with Geneva is that there's no more physical space to build - but living in France with Swiss Geneva canton minimum wage will boost your quality of live way beyond most San Francisco dwellers.

The problem might be there are thousands of French, Italians, and other Europeans sharing the same Swiss dream while standing in the traffic jams. I doubt the rents by the Swiss border in France are at the "French level".

As someone who lived in both places I can easily tell you that Geneva traffic jams / crowds don't come close to what most employees of SF tech startups endure on their way to work.

To make Geneva as awesome as Silicon Valley, you'd have to prolong the jams and time spend on the road by about 2-3x and remove all the busses and trams.

The rent in those region from what I've heard from colleagues (I work as a SWE in Paris) is trough the roof. you also have to pay taxes in both countries, but compensation wise you'll still end up with a significantly better deal even taking into account things like cost of living. The commute is not better for me or my colleagues in the Paris region.

> it seems that most low wage earners survive by living in nearby French towns and commuting in to work

My interviews with Swiss companies when discussing the employment form usually turn to "you can live in France and commute daily to Switzerland". Yeah, thanks no thanks.

I've done that and it was lovely! 20 minutes bike ride each way, crossing the border every morning and evening on my bike. Nicer than most commutes.

In bad weather taking the bus, which was always on time and never delayed in traffic.

Are we talking about Europe where you are free to live where you want? If people are living in France it’s just that it’s cheaper nobody is prevented to live in Switzerland. The main problem arise when the janitor working in SwitzerlanD is getting 3x the salary of the high school tacher in nearby France. Btw Zurich where the cost of living is higher is far away from any border....

I've lived in Geneva and Zurich, and there is a big difference between the two. Geneva is basically France, with some Italian and Portugese thrown in for added rule breaking, but Swiss so the "special" rules apply to other people. It's full of self-entitled snow flakes, backwards and not like the rest of Switzerland at all.

There are very interesting software companies in Switzerland. And those companies are taking a lot of risks as well. Maybe your impression stems from the fact that it's not a very visible ecosystem and the funding is obviously much smaller than in bigger economies.

These companies were not financed by venture capital (except for some cryptocurrency companies, which are popular here indeed). Also, some of the software companies were moved here for tax reasons, but they were founded elsewhere.

Don't know why you are talking in absolutes here. There's quite a bit of venture funding outside of the cryptocurrency space. Crunchbase shows $2B total in funding for Zurich alone (https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups) - don't know how that compares internationally but it's definitely something rather than nothing.

Yes, and there's also a great biotech startup & VC ecosystem.

That's an interesting claim! Is there a tax efficient way to structure a tech company in Switzerland?

Taxation doesn't look very good neither on the personal level (income tax / dividend tax / tax on deemed rental value of your property if you own a house!!!) nor the company one (corporate rate tax, high cost of personnel). They do have some good deductions and a lump sum income tax for foreigners relocating to Switzerland but it seems like you won't benefit from it unless your income is 7 times higher than your yearly rent (or deemed property rental value if you own).

Is there maybe some possible legal fiscal loophole with foreign entities?

The biggest advantage in Switzerland that I know of is no capital gains tax. So if you sell shares of your company you don't pay a tax on the sale.

Pick the right canton. There are many, with very diverse tax codes, and in the smaller ones you even get to negotiate a bit (if you are big and important enough). But of course that will mean you have to be out in the sticks.

No tax on capital gain is just the most important one for any startup... (btw you do get this tax on fictional rental value of your house, but you can deduct all loan interest which are normally higher even today with the 0.8% loan rate)

I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up.

I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well.

Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country.

When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.

> Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country

That is quite unworldly. I worked on large projects both in Switzerland and in Germany. These are totally different cultures. The number of laws and the degree of bureaucracy in Germany is many times greater than in Switzerland (only surpassed by Italy). In Germany everything is forbidden that is not explicitly allowed, in Switzerland it is the other way round. In Switzerland everything can be negotiated; try negotiating with a German official. Good luck with that.

I have lived half of my life in Germany.

Let me guess, you were a child so don't really know what the bureaucracy is like there. Switzerland is actually much more progressive (good luck doingt anything online in Germany!!).

Quite easy, just use the Bürgerbüro online portal.

I lived in Geneva from 26 to 28 years old, as mentioned in other replies, come back to Switzerland every time I manage to, and have several good Swiss friends.

I also had to help a friend of mine newly moved into Baden in 2018 to settle in, so I know what bureaucracy she had to face until she was 100% done with everything and could carry on with her life having a proper bank account, address, mobile phone, internet, new car registration, the whole package.

On the other hand, when speaking to a government employee, you're mostly speaking to someone who can make an actual decision on that matter, and can help you to solve your problem. Yes, there are many rules, but living there I've never had the feeling that this made the country inflexible.

As south European, I think it is a personal matter, it basically boils down to how much one can adapt to living by rules, without the flexibility to bend the rules one is used to in other countries.

There are plus and minus to both approaches, the rules approach favours more the society overall as everyone gets the same, while the flexible approach kind of favours the individual.

Well, drive half an hour by car from southern Switzerland to Italy and you will notice that the road will be lined with garbage heaps on both sides. There are definitely some advantages if people are a bit tidy. And then try to achieve something at an Italian office without losing your mind. You can always negotiate with the Swiss, and there are always compromises.

See, that is a good example of culture shock, I have zero issues negotiating in Italy.

And as mentioned in other answers I enjoyed my time in Switzerland, and come back every time I manage to, so trying to make my point of view without attacking anyone.

Nonsense! I’ve been part of the Swiss startup scene for more than a decade and there are plenty of interesting startups and opportunities. If there is a lack of anything, it is technical co-founders that are willing to take a risk. (Working at Google is just too convenient.) In any case, it you are looking for a nice challenge, feel free to consider my latest venture Aktionariat.

>This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors

Can you please expand on those two points?

Swiss culture is all about safety, confidentiality and responsible spending of already earned money. Additionally, the prevailing business model is that of the Mittelstand small-to-medium enterprise. Small factories spread throughout the whole country, highly specialized in one thing (producing mostly bits of industrial equipment), co-dependent on other such companies to form the economic blood system of the country. A fascinatingly-organized society, nevertheless. From a Bulgarian who has been there for 1 year.

That makes sense, thanks. So there's no dearth of entrepreneurship in CH, but it's concentrated in SMEs focussed on machinery rather than say Internet startups.

In Germany, the southwest, especially Swabia, is more conservative than the north. More tidy-freaks, stingy pennypinchers, more-concerned-with-the-appearance holier-than-thou, "we have always done it like this" and "you didn't clean your sidewalk properly, I've found a leave". Maybe "Kehrwoche" and "schwäbische Hausfrau" will yield sone entertaining google results. Businesswise, it is the region of small to medium family businesses, where the father of course passes on a highly emphasized tradition to the eldest son.

Switzerland is like this, turned to eleven, plus a lot of nationalism and need to be separate from the bigger neighbours. You won't get money from a bank or investor down there unless you are solidly local, doing something they understand and looks like all the other medium family businesses making machines or parts down there.

Caveat: Of course this is full of personal impressions, stereotypes and things like that. And it is strictly a collection of more negative aspects, there is of course a positive side.

I have so many issues with this.

1. BW is governed by the greens. You know what counties get the highest CDU vote in elections? It's not in the south, it's in Niedersachsen (Cloppenburg etc.).

2. Switzerland has different cantons which are very different. I live in the French part where the average person speaks three languages and 40% are foreigners.

3. I can totally understand swiss' people wish to be separate, this has resulted in them having by FAR higher living standards than other Europeans. Salaries are TWICE as high while taxes are TWICE as low. I'm underestimating that by the way. In the meantime Europe has fucked themselves with the Euro and massive migration which has depressed wages, good luck dealing with that.

4. There is HUGE amounts of funding compared to Germany. I'm in the process of that right now and it's kind of insane how many different options are for getting 5-6 digit sums. Got approved for 100k last week and applying for more.

1. Nope, BW greens are not a counter for the population and businesses to behave in a conservative way. Also, BW greens are kind of special, Kretschmann and Palmer are seen as pariahs in the rest of the german green party. They aren't even very green, e.g. they are quite supportive of the local BW car industry which the rest of German greens wants to see gone yesterday.

2. Yes, the French and Italian speaking parts are quite different. But thats less than half of Switzerland, and the big spot everyone seems to be drawn to seems to be Zürich.

3. Yes, but that is just a reason, not a counterargument. Also, costs are TWICE as high in certain areas, i.e. personell and stuff that is not imported from the EU.

4. I don't know what you are doing, and of course I do wish you all the best. But beware and remember that the costs will be high. Switzerland is much more automated than the neighbours, because noone can afford hiring people.

Investors have very little risk appetite, enterprise makes big money, but innivation is usually pressured into low-cost as much as possible. It’s hard to find a developer job where you get decent pay and interesting work with a swiss company. Source, I’m a software developer since 20 years in Switzerand

>Investors have very little risk appetite

Are high profile investors in Swizterland interested only in retail investments?

I strongly agree with you. The country doesn't seem attractive at all to me. I'd rather think of Berlin, Paris or (sadly) London.