News for hackers. Stuff that matters.

A comment on Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers?. Parent comment

Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by somedude895 on Friday November 27, 2020 @12:47PM (#25230842)
I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by langitbiru on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:00PM (#25231019)
And there is a quote: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there (compared to Europe).

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by jandrewrogers on Friday November 27, 2020 @02:01PM (#25231609)
The primary advantage of the US is cultural. It is not just the anomalously high risk tolerance and wealth, but people who attempt audacious goals tend to be celebrated. Americans shed the Tall Poppy Syndrome that is a very visible feature of virtually all other European cultures, perhaps because the US was predominantly settled by "tall poppies".

After years of working in various parts of Europe, I think it distills down to this. Sufficient talent, desire, and capital exists in Europe -- it is missing no ingredients -- but society there pervasively and subtly undermines anyone who dreams of attempting something really bold. It is a shame.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by UMetaGOMS on Friday November 27, 2020 @02:46PM (#25231987)
To put it another way, European culture values humility over ego, and does not applaud those who manage to exploit those "lesser" than themselves quite so much.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by povik on Saturday November 28, 2020 @05:17AM (#25236715)
No, you are not putting it another way. Achievement is not “exploiting those lesser than themselves”.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by triceratops on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:08PM (#25231123)
> Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there

Not really. My bet is on the abundance of capital (hello global reserve currency) combined with excellent universities and a cultural willingness to take risks and do bold things. People who need a safety net, such as food stamps or housing assistance, are rarely the people who start big companies. They're usually too caught up in just trying to survive day-to-day.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by tonyedgecombe on Saturday November 28, 2020 @03:03AM (#25236104)
And a huge homogenous home market.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by triceratops on Saturday November 28, 2020 @03:09AM (#25236120)
Yep agreed.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by durnygbur on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:15PM (#25231204)
> they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Hey, the Swiss evolved the cuckoo clock into a wristwatch... nope, even this innovation was by two Polish and Czech immigrants.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by gherkinnn on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:13PM (#25231185)
That's from Jeremy Clarkson, innit?

Despite that quote being mostly wrong [0][1], a safety net might account for some idleness. But there's more. You might find a local variation of the Law of Jante [2], for example.

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo_clock#First_modern_cuck...

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by HPsquared on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:22PM (#25231270)
It's said by Orson Welles' character in "The Third Man" (1949). Famous quote, allegedly ad-libbed: https://youtu.be/I8RW3K3hhWU
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by z_zetetic_z on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:17AM (#25236455)
Cuckoo clocks originated in the Black Forest in Germany, north of the Swiss border. People associate them with Switzerland because of innovative marketing!
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by mahkeiro on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:23AM (#25235945)
It’s not like Switzerland has one of the highest number of nobel prize and patent per capita in the world... That’s really not a spot on cliché quote...
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by 8ytecoder on Friday November 27, 2020 @12:51PM (#25230888)
If you have a lot to lose... My biggest change was the lose of appetite for risk when I moved to a first world country. When you have a comfortable life it’s hard to kick out of it.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by dbspin on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:00PM (#25231021)
I don't know how egalitarian it is. Having visited Geneva and spoken with many people there about the crazy high cost of living - it seems that most low wage earners survive by living in nearby French towns and commuting in to work. That's an economy maintained by the indentured servitude of non-native people.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by izacus on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:22PM (#25231271)
The commute of most of those workers is usually less than half of what most rockstars of Sillicon Valley need to endure, not to mention that the public transport extends to border towns in France and is significantly better than the one in SV. Geneva lies directly on the border so those towns are way closer to most workplaces than Oakland is to San Francisco.

The issue with Geneva is that there's no more physical space to build - but living in France with Swiss Geneva canton minimum wage will boost your quality of live way beyond most San Francisco dwellers.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by durnygbur on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:26PM (#25231315)
The problem might be there are thousands of French, Italians, and other Europeans sharing the same Swiss dream while standing in the traffic jams. I doubt the rents by the Swiss border in France are at the "French level".
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by izacus on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:31PM (#25231358)
As someone who lived in both places I can easily tell you that Geneva traffic jams / crowds don't come close to what most employees of SF tech startups endure on their way to work.

To make Geneva as awesome as Silicon Valley, you'd have to prolong the jams and time spend on the road by about 2-3x and remove all the busses and trams.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by thx2099100 on Friday November 27, 2020 @02:34PM (#25231889)
The rent in those region from what I've heard from colleagues (I work as a SWE in Paris) is trough the roof. you also have to pay taxes in both countries, but compensation wise you'll still end up with a significantly better deal even taking into account things like cost of living. The commute is not better for me or my colleagues in the Paris region.
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by durnygbur on Friday November 27, 2020 @01:20PM (#25231251)
> it seems that most low wage earners survive by living in nearby French towns and commuting in to work

My interviews with Swiss companies when discussing the employment form usually turn to "you can live in France and commute daily to Switzerland". Yeah, thanks no thanks.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by jlokier on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:30AM (#25244013)
I've done that and it was lovely! 20 minutes bike ride each way, crossing the border every morning and evening on my bike. Nicer than most commutes.

In bad weather taking the bus, which was always on time and never delayed in traffic.

[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by mahkeiro on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:29AM (#25235969)
Are we talking about Europe where you are free to live where you want? If people are living in France it’s just that it’s cheaper nobody is prevented to live in Switzerland. The main problem arise when the janitor working in SwitzerlanD is getting 3x the salary of the high school tacher in nearby France. Btw Zurich where the cost of living is higher is far away from any border....
[ Parent | on HN ]
Re:Switzerland – Europe's Silicon Valley for Developers? by z_zetetic_z on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:24AM (#25236486)
I've lived in Geneva and Zurich, and there is a big difference between the two. Geneva is basically France, with some Italian and Portugese thrown in for added rule breaking, but Swiss so the "special" rules apply to other people. It's full of self-entitled snow flakes, backwards and not like the rest of Switzerland at all.
[ Parent | on HN ]