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Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by r34 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:01AM (#23769037)
Maybe developers stop learning because they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development. Maybe they realize (they should) that self-development should be we well balanced, so after programming workday they should invest their time into sports and work with their emotions and take care of interpersonal aspect of their lives.

The older I am the more I'm convinced that development is not individual thing - it's a team sport.

Hey, company: divide your workday into 4h work for external projects and 4h work for team development.

Smart, mature developer, will realize that the most inhibiting phenomenon for him is usually the job itself.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by selykg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:49AM (#23769321)
This exactly. At may last job I burnt out, bad. In hindsight I see it. It did so many weird things to my mental health (and physical health) that I did not see at the time.

* Depression and Anxiety

* High blood pressure

* Weight gain

* Not having any idea how to simply relax

* Friends were more or less entirely from work

* Loneliness

At the end of the day I didn't want to go learn more stuff. I tried like hell to just gain my life back and failed miserably. It wasn't until reaching basically the bottom that I found a couple things that helped me:

1. Blood pressure medication was a must, I'm still trying to determine if this is stress related or a genetic thing.

2. Meditation. I found I did a ton of thinking about the future, worrying about the past, and just in general not being able to live today. I still struggle with this, but meditation and mindfulness have helped me a lot in trying to be in the present rather than past or future (depression/anxiety).

3. Time off. Though mine was sort of forced and forced to be longer due to COVID-19, I found time off helped, but since it was unplanned financial concerns kept me stressed out and I'm still trying to recover financially now.

If an employer wants me to continue upping my game they will need to give me the time to do it while I'm working. Within reason. I'm not expecting like weeks or something, but I just won't give up my free time anymore, it's too important to my health.

The sad reality is I know this is something an employer will tend to look down on. But I've found that happiness is not work, and work is generally not happiness. You have to have happiness outside of work and they need to be distinct separate things. Work, fundamentally, is about paying for the things I need to live so I can enjoy myself. I've found I don't need fancy toys or an expensive house to enjoy myself. I don't have to live on a lot of money.

Anyway, a little long winded, but your comment hit a chord with me.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by Kaze404 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:19AM (#23770745)
I had the exact same experience and reached the same conclusion. After starting therapy and taking medication for the severe anxiety I developed because of that experience, I remembered what it's like to be "normal" and decided this is what I want for the rest of my life. No job is worth giving it up.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by selykg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:23AM (#23770789)
Glad you're feeling better. It's a tough hole to dig yourself out of.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:58AM (#23771148)
Going through this now. Completely fried, working 12 hour days just trying to make sure I hit the required weekly point total. Cant spend any time getting better as all my time is spent just trying to survive. Take time to properly learn means my points drop and I'm fired in the middle a recession.

On top of this, little kids are home so productivity is hard. I do nothing but sit at my desk trying to close tickets. Stress level is through the roof, gained 20 pounds, no time with the kids.

It is not great.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by strbean on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:23PM (#23771400)
"Required weekly point total" sounds like a nightmare. I'm guessing you are a software dev? Are you a non-remote worker in SF/Silicon Valley? If not, I'd suggest looking for a change in employment. The job market is messed up right now, but startups have the money and desire to grow, and are adjusting to more full-remote workers.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by selykg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:13PM (#23771284)
I hear you on that. Try to find little ways to help yourself.

A few suggestions, no idea if they'll work for you but maybe you find something in the list or one of them gives you an idea.

1. Meditation. Even if it's just 5 minutes a day. Most of the apps have free trials. I really like 10% Happier but all of them are reasonably good.

2. Journal. This is a good way to just snapshot your feelings and stuff. I'd suggest writing it on paper as opposed to using some form of technology. Take 5 minutes a day and write.

3. Go for a walk, maybe with the kids? Time with the kids and good for your health. Even if it's a short walk, it's something.

4. Try to find one simple way to improve each meal you eat. Can you reduce the salt? Can you swap in something healthier for that unhealthy bit?

5. Find a lightweight hobby you can do a little bit each day. Maybe it's building lego, maybe it's reading a book for fun (and not work), etc.

6. Get enough sleep... this is important. Sleep is vital and without enough of it you just set yourself further back.

I know you said time is tight, but the thing is you have to try to make time for things will get worse. Start with 5 minutes a day. Most people can find 5 minutes in their day.

Good luck. I hope you find some small ways to improve your life. Ultimately for me not working that job was better for me. This is a terrible economy though so I get that you feel stuck. When it starts to improve, take the time to find something that's better for you.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by TuringNYC on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:13PM (#23772636)
> working 12 hour days just trying to make sure I hit the required weekly point total

This seems to be against the spirit of most systems. If a company has a "required weekly point total" it seems it would be a race to the bottom as developers start inflating point values. Also, if "required weekly point total" needs to go up over time, and it isnt through improved methods, then that will also lead to point inflation.

At that point, the points mean nothing because you can either use them to honestly estimate projects, or you can weaponize them to churn developers (in which case you cant use them to estimate any longer.)

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by kyberias on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:04PM (#23771208)
What the hell is a required weekly point total?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by futureproofd on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:19PM (#23771362)
It's most likely in the context of an agile methodology - "a time-boxed iteration of a continuous development cycle. Within a Sprint, planned amount of work has to be completed by the team and made ready for review."

The planned amount of work is established via a number of tickets, each containing a point value in vague terms of difficulty/time. As you complete these tickets you tally up points. While this system is quite efficient, I'm also starting to have doubts as it could tend to lead towards gamification. Analyzed from a narrow scope/from manager or director's perspective, can lead to simple conclusions about the employee. For example, John is a better worker than Mary because for the past 5 sprints, John's point total was 130 while Mary's was only 100.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by milesvp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:44PM (#23772265)
To add to this, using numbers is a common mistake for agile estimation. Better to use things like t-shirt sizes. The problem is estimates aren’t associative, but making them numbers geatly increases the odds that someone will try to add them together anyways. And the biggest mistake is to give the numbers units of time. An expectation that a 3 point story will take X hours is particularly bad as that reporting gets higher in the org chart, since the only focus will tend to be on the translated time.

Your gamification example and using agile velocity to rank individuals is it’s own dark pattern too. The team should be the unit when doing agile, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, but ranking due to to ticket closes is lazy, and so many factors that increase team velocity. For instance just having someone on the team who can tackle the bigger ticket can hugely improve team performace, as can having someone good at closing lots of little tickets. Neither is necessarily more important to the team, but having them both can be really effective.

I can tell you from experience that point quotas however it’s measured is its own mistake, that will lead to substandard teams. I was lucky enough to have enough clout at a previous job that every time management tried to go this route I was able to push back long enough that general productivity had a chance to improve without this sword of damacles causing morale problems.

And if you work for a place that has billable hours, I’m sorry. Much of my advice, while applicable, may be trumped by needs around client billing. Hopefully you make enough money to deal with this kind of stress...

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by desert_boi on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:02PM (#23772516)
What happens when t-shirt sizes end up mapped to the same point values when evaluation time comes around? My current company is in a belt tightening cycle, and recently introduced stack ranking. Implicit metrics are still metrics, even if they're lazy.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by milesvp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:25PM (#23772773)
Yeah, this has a tendency to happen, it's sort of the constant fight. You can really only fight it with metrics, you can sort of start to show that 3tiny+1med tends to be equivalent to 1 large tends to be equivalent to 5small, or whatever. At the end of the day, you're trying to make it as hard as possible to simply add numbers. People will naturally try to map these things to ordinal numbers, and it's important to sort of keep a light constant pressure to prevent this the further away from the team you go. You need to start by training your team and your PMs and your manager to avoid this as much as possible. It's their job to train their stake holders and bosses in turn. I can tell you from experience that it's an incredible amount of effort, but the benefits are really worth it. Having a team with space to be effective is a magical place to be. I still mourn needing to leave that team and organization.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by milesvp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @05:07PM (#23774237)
Oh, and sorry about stack ranking. It can be the beginning of the end. Job market is bad right now. But it might be wise to look at postings, and see what techs you want to brush up on. I’ve seen stack ranking destroy orgs, especially since good teams tend to disproportionally attract good talent. But management never believes that your whole team is above average.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by desert_boi on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:44PM (#23776193)
I fortunately have had my eye on the exit for a while, and am set to leave soon. The rest of my current team isn't so lucky.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by GolDDranks on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:18PM (#23771946)
That sounds seriously like agile gone wrong. If the team isn't able to complete the amount of points in the sprint, there should be reflection: why not? Maybe we estimated the amount of work wrong? Maybe the amount of points was already set up by "crunch standards", not normal standards. Btw. who does the estimation? In our team, it's us, the developers.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by Frost1x on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:56PM (#23773094)
I've yet to see examples of "agile gone right" outside of folklore.

I work with multiple groups at any given time and all of them end up following many of these patterns. Through one proxy metric or another, agile systems become bad accounting and metric systems that are used to pressure developers to the point of burn out and or leaving.

For management, the goal is to push more efficiently from a fixed salary. From their misguided perspective, they're already paying you $100-200k+, so they own all of your time. The more they can get you to do over 8 hours, the less they're paying per unit (hour) of labor. This leads to high turnover, burnout, poor products, and is ultimatelt passing costs off to employees.

At some point, for many, time investment vs compensation can even out to working a fulltime and decent full-time and part time job (12 hours a day). The employer has managed to disguise this through all sorts of deceptive means. The employer may be ignorant that fact, they may (genuinely) think they're just pushing you to work a full 8 hours or so, but it's more common than people seem to want to admit. And ego in software development and widespread imposter syndrome for newer developers just perpetuate this problem.

New developers won't admit when a request is absurd, they assume they're slow and pickup the slack. They also are trying to gain entry to the market so they're willing to sacrifice their time in hopes to jump ship for a less toxic environment with higher comp to time ratio. "This is just temporary." Ultimately, that mentality creates an expectation and experience only buys you so much efficiency in certain situations. Those new developers provide positive reinforcement to business managers that "this is the way."

As that happens at more and more enviornments, work to life balances become toxic at more and more places and the end result is, those new developers may never get a chance to escape that toxic balance because they've enabled it, everywhere, through fierce competition of ego.

I learned this at my first job when a very senior (nearly retired) developer working in development since the punch card era seemed to only be producing a little more than I could in a day. I thought, well he must be barely working, lazy or incompetent because I'm a newbie and not too far behind him. "This guy supposedly helped contribite to the development of quantum theory, write some of the first computer simulations for this, and friends with nobel prize winners? What a sham, his skills must be so dated!"

So for awhile, I started churning out more progress than him but he never changed his pace. At some point I realized I was investing a lot of extra time for no apparent reason. I didn't get paid more. I got some "brownie points" but ultimately, I realized I was undercutting my manager and mentor by using my free time and at the same time, creating an expectation of my production rate that required more than 8 hours of work. I was sprinting in a marathon and only harming myself by trying to be competitive and show I was as good or better as this relic developer. It turns, out I was just unwise, and he was light years ahead of me at setting realistic expectations. Through the rest of my career I realized he had created the most realisticand accurate time estimates for development timelines I've encountered and created a work environment that was well balanced for everyone and kept his boss happy, all while no one was stagnant and still developing professsionally.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by TuringNYC on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:15PM (#23772665)
In the spirit of these things, point values are for individual teams to help benchmark their own rate, and not meant for comparison across teams using different point references.

If there is company-wide point tallying, it will lead to gaming and point inflation -- at which point the benefit of rate estimation will be lost.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by noarchy on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:56PM (#23771754)
Some software shops, unfortunately, take their "Agile" a little too seriously. They end up treating developers like assembly-line workers with a quota to meet. Those burndown charts become a very important metric that managers can show their managers, etc.

One could call it metrics-driven development.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:32PM (#23771487)
We run psuedo agile where you are required to close a given number of points each week. Each ticket is given a point value based on percieved complexity. Point total on closed tickets have too meet or exceed weekly requirement. Not a good time.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by tra3 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:54PM (#23771727)
But story points are estimates. Estimates are never set in stone. I’ve successfully argued this many times in the past. Software development is too complex for estimates to be always correct.

Anyway don’t mean to preach, sounds like you’re having a tough time. Sorry about that hope it gets better

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by closeparen on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:35PM (#23771512)
The natural conclusion of "you can't manage what you don't measure" ideology.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by metalliqaz on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:17PM (#23771331)
It's the value of all the issues you complete in a sprint. See: Agile process, Scrum, etc.

It's stupid.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by kyberias on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:39AM (#23778163)
It may be stupid if you don't understand it or apply it incorrectly. There is no "agile process" that defines "required weekly points".
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by heavyset_go on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:30PM (#23772827)
Someone watched Black Mirror and thought the show had some good ideas.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by core-questions on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:23PM (#23771395)
Time to start padding out your point estimates for things. It's not even a lie: if you're working more than the 8 hours you're supposed to in a day, you're underestimating the complexity of things, which is actually the real lie.

Some of this comes from team dynamics: you all have to together commit to not working every night to avoid burnout and competing with one another.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:40PM (#23771573)
Wish I could. More senior engineers argue for lower point totals. Environment is just designed to squeeze the maximum amount of time out of engineers.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by hansvm on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:55PM (#23771738)
Even as a well-paid, salaried software engineer, there's a moderate chance that they're still obligated to give you overtime pay (at least in CA -- heavily depends on your jurisdiction), especially if your job is implementing a series of small stories that are completely designed by somebody else and especially if there isn't enough leeway to take a little time to learn about the thing you're coding. You might consider talking to a lawyer or some kind of workers advocate. A year of back-paid overtime can go a long way toward weathering a recession ;)
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by potta_coffee on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:03PM (#23771821)
Can you overestimate your story points a little?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by crdrost on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:39PM (#23772200)
That can only work for a short time. There is a feedback loop at play here and it will seek a stable equilibrium. The organization needs to solve its internal problem.

The move from estimates to story points is actually a part of this compensation already, companies pretend that story points are about giving the developers more freedom to our faces, but actually they are about taking our estimate that something can be done in a week and removing the word “week” so that it can be estimated as a couple days’ work instead by our supervisors.

The fundamental process is already, at most agile shops I have seen,

- I the dev am going to build in some unconscious safety buffer by giving an estimate that I'm 90% or 95% confident in,

- I am going to give myself more safety buffer consciously by doubling or tripling that estimate when I communicate it to my boss,

- my boss is going to give us even more safety buffer by lumping together all of our tasks and then adding another 50% of time to that

- and then they are going to give it to their non-technical bosses, who are going to survey this estimate for the project and insist that it needs to be done in 25% less time, it is urgent, we need it sooner than that.

Story points allow a bunch of this to happen without explicitly contradicting anyone. But the basic problems is much more fundamental and it is that management and engineering are being phrased as having opposed interests. This is a basic failure in any negotiation: once it turns into a zero-sum game, everybody loses. In turn, there is a set of books that pinpoint say deeper problem, as being focused on controlling costs rather than driving revenues—which we see in these story point quotas, gotta make sure you get your money's worth from the dev team.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by kaiju0 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:17PM (#23771341)
Why are you point commitments from planning so high? Sounds like they are 25% - 30% higher than they should be.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:34PM (#23771506)
They are. I don't get to choose my point commitment. It's set for every one. Turn over is surprisingly high...
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by GolDDranks on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:21PM (#23771978)
At least I Scrum, as I understand it, the commitment should be chosen by reflecting it to past velocity. If that velocity is achieved only by crunching and overworking, that's a problem that needs to be addressed. If it can't be reasonably addressed, that's a sign of a toxic workplace.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by heavyset_go on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:28PM (#23772801)
> Completely fried, working 12 hour days just trying to make sure I hit the required weekly point total. Cant spend any time getting better as all my time is spent just trying to survive. Take time to properly learn means my points drop and I'm fired in the middle a recession. I do nothing but sit at my desk trying to close tickets. Stress level is through the roof, gained 20 pounds, no time with the kids.

Name the company so that no one else suffers needlessly by tying their ability to provide for their family to said employer. That sounds like a terrible situation for anyone to be in.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by heavyset_go on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:10AM (#23770643)
> The sad reality is I know this is something an employer will tend to look down on

That's not an employer you want to work for, and in the end, all they will succeed in doing is hiring kids who don't know any better, and driving away skilled talent.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by Alex3917 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:44AM (#23771006)
> Blood pressure medication was a must, I'm still trying to determine if this is stress related or a genetic thing.

Could also be Vitamin D deficiency, which is probably common among developers.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by core-questions on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:24PM (#23771410)
Not just developers - anyone living far enough from the equator is suffering from this. This is in fact why lighter skin evolved, out of a need to get more vitamin D from the limited sunshine.

Take your Vitamin D supplements, a few thousand IU a day, probably more if you're not White. Get sunshine. Sit by a window.

It's particularly critical for men's health as Vitamin D is critical in the proper production of testosterone, as well.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by jehlakj on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:55PM (#23771736)
Don’t sit by windows. Windows filter out the rays needed for your body to produce vitamin d. You’re essentially damaging your skin without the benefits
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by core-questions on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @03:27PM (#23773373)
What if I open the window
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by selykg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:33PM (#23771501)
Looked at my multi-vitamin, it's 25mcg (1000 IU). You're saying more would potentially be necessary?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by Alex3917 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:52PM (#23771698)
If you're mildly vitamin D deficient, you would probably want to take an additional 1000 IU per day in addition to the 1000 IU in your multivitamin. It's safe for most people to take up to 4000 IU per day, but unless you've been tested and know you're severely deficient then I wouldn't take more than 2000 IU total per day. Then just keep checking your blood pressure over the next 6 weeks and see what happens.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by selykg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:04PM (#23771826)
Thanks! Appreciate the insight.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by core-questions on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @03:28PM (#23773381)
I'm not a doctor. I take ~2000 a day, sometimes 3000 when a third pill falls into my mouth from the bottle. Actual dosage advice would be better from someone who isn't just relaying anecdotes.

That said, I would guarantee that you're better off with that 1000 IU than with nothing!

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by selykg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:49AM (#23771054)
Interesting. I'll look into this, thanks!
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by closeparen on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:22PM (#23771382)
>learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development

It's sad that this is what continuous learning for software engineers has come to mean. Don't do that! Learn to express different and deeper ideas in the technologies you already know. Programming is a huge world. Maybe you have truly tapped out line-of-business CRUD apps, but remember every line in the CS course catalog is a whole universe unto itself.

Operating systems, distributed systems, databases, graphics, embedded systems, HPC, etc. Pick a layer of the stack, understand it, and move it forward a little.

You'll notice that many of these worlds have completely skipped the Javascript framework treadmill, and K&R C from the 1970s will get you a decent part of the way there.

I mourn the time I have to spend re-learning CRUD because it distracts from this mission.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by mmckelvy on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:51PM (#23773038)
I like the concept of "learning to express different and deeper ideas in technologies you already know", but I'd suggest going deeper in a particular business domain or industry instead of another area of the CS universe.

In other words, become an expert at solving specific business problems with technology, not a technology expert looking for business problems to solve.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pshc on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:22PM (#23772739)
Though maybe don't start any new projects in C.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by willcipriano on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:46PM (#23772993)
For me, C is the Latin of programming languages. Once you get C the world opens up and learning a new programming language is easy.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pshc on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:32PM (#23776693)
For sure, learn from it, but it's nearly impossible to keep secure. Start new projects in a safe language.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by kickopotomus on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:31PM (#23772841)
Why is that? C remains an immensely popular language (especially as you get closer to the metal). I also don't see Linux being rewritten in something else anytime soon.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pshc on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:31PM (#23776690)
Only for new projects. At this point there's no reason to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:27AM (#23769650)
And then when your company decides to either to “take the company in a different direction” or you notice that it is bringing new employees in at market rate that has gone up 20% in 3 years while HR is giving you 3% cost of living raises, you are out there in your mid 40s, can’t get a job and you start complaining about ageism.

I was there a little over 10 years ago at 35. I belatedly learned how to play the game. Until my current job, it was all about resume driven development and job hopping the minute my salary or what I am doing at my current job got out of whack with the market.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by oblio on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:35AM (#23769723)
You need to do this and do it early. All those years of missed revenue add up quickly.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:40AM (#23770306)
I don't like this mentality. Maximizing lifetime revenue isn't some emergency to panic about. It's one goal to balance against many other important things in life. If your income provides you a lifestyle you're happy with and is poised to continue doing so (which in this context is almost certainly the case), there is no emergency.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by atomicity on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:05PM (#23771216)
It's ok to not forcefully grow your income, but stagnating income is correlated with your skillset becoming outdated. If you haven't worked on your network or your interview skills, you can find it hard to find a new job. In addition, a less career-oriented person would find working on those less enjoyable than keeping their skills up to date and likely do them even less.

The reality is that software engineering automates software engineering jobs the most. As a result, people in this industry do highlight the importance of not neglecting your skillset.

However, I wouldn't take that as them trying to maximize their revenue. They've simply found that they need to do a deeper analysis on skills to not get automated out of a job.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:13PM (#23771280)
You're getting pretty far off-topic (and actually making a point that I'm trying to make myself in a separate subthread). This is the sentence I was pushing back against:

> All those years of missed revenue add up quickly

I'm only talking about money here

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:20PM (#23775745)
Your salary is your revenue. The longer you wait, the less time you get to take advantage of compounding.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:20PM (#23775740)
Your income not only needs to provide you a lifestyle that you are happy with now, it also needs to provide you enough to save and have a lifestyle you want when you’re not working. There is going to be a day you’re not working.

But, if you are working for less than your fair market value, you’re providing the lifestyle that your company’s owners are happy with.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by swagonomixxx on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:52AM (#23770427)
The obsession with constantly increasing your salary year-on-year is very much alive and well, at least in the US.

I'm not European, but I imagine that this isn't the case in Europe as it doesn't have the same culture around work.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by necrotic_comp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:29AM (#23770861)
In the US, I think part of the reason why this is the case is because the cost of living goes up significantly more than the cost of living adjustments.

For example, while landlords aren't supposed to raise the rent by more than 2% per year, I've had my landlord surprise me with a 5% change, but moving is too expensive to realistically consider [1].

Factor in all the additional costs of living, and if you don't get significant raises every year, you're going to fall further behind each year and be unable to afford a family, a house, or an emergency.

It's not great.

1 - When I moved to a good neighborhood in NYC, I had to pay a brokers fee of 15% + moving costs + up front costs to the landlord. Say my rent was 3k, this would be 5400 (0.15 * 3000 * 12) + ~500 + 9000 (first + last + security), or approximately 15k just to move into a place you don't own.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by swagonomixxx on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:55PM (#23772419)
Totally in agreement with you, especially in the bigger metropolitan areas like NYC and SF.

Rule of thumb for me in my career is I expect at least a 5% raise yearly to account for cost of living and inflation of currency, otherwise, like you said, you'd be losing money YoY.

Thankfully, I've gotten many > 25% raises throughout my career. It's possible, but it's rare, and jumping jobs usually gives larger pay bumps.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:32PM (#23775801)
What’s this about what the landlords are “suppose to do”? Most of the US isn’t rent controlled. My apartment that I moved into after getting married in 2012 went from $1300 to $1750 by 2016 when I left. It was $2000/month last year.

My mortgage is less than $2200 for a 3100 square foot house brand new build and that wont go up besides property taxes and insurance.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by necrotic_comp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:01PM (#23775981)
"supposed to" means legally. 5 percent isn't allowed but they can get away with it because fighting it isn't worth it.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by kqr on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:02PM (#23771812)
I can't compare to the US, but I'm in one of the more relaxed European countries and I definitely feel like I'm in the minority for pursuing some continuity with my current employer rather than jumping ship for a higher salary after two years.

(Fortunately, this is a good employer that realises what the reality looks like and is willing to offer me competitive raises to make it a doubly mutually beneficial arrangement.)

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:28PM (#23775787)
Well, in my case since both my salary and skillset stagnated from 2000-2008 - after 3% COL raises and bonuses being cut, I only made $4000 more in 2008 than I did in 2000, there is a lot of catching up with both I had to do. Especially seeing that in 2012, I went from being single to (gladly) getting married and taking on the responsibility of a preteen and a teen.

That being said, I was quite content with my pre-Covid salary which was pretty much average for a top end individual contributor locally. But I did need to make at least $20K more over in two years.

Then Covid happened, along with pay cuts and the local market dried up.

But now working remotely for BigTech means my base salary is a little more than it was pre-Covid and RSUs+Bonus is pure gravy that goes directly to long term savings.

It also meant my wife didn’t have to go back to work in the school system with a Covid going around.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ducster696 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:41PM (#23772942)
I am not so sure. My wife is European and she is very much inline with always going upwards. I on the other hand very much enjoy work life balance as well as making sure I enjoy what I do even if I make less than I could elsewhere.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by oblio on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:51AM (#23771070)
I'm European and I live in Europe :-)
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:53AM (#23769870)
By the time I learned the error of my ways, it was too late to do it early. Luckily, I can still get caught up if I play my cards right. I work remotely for Big Tech in a low cost of living area. The arbitrage gives me a great opportunity to save.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by UncleSam on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:24PM (#23772004)
I'm pretty new to remote work life. Don't many companies adjust your salary based on where you live? It seems like this would counter the entire point of living somewhere cheaper.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by KyryloHolovach on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:30PM (#23772082)
All the remote policies of any company you can find here http://remote.lifeshack.io/, I dont think your salary is baased on where you live, albeit i am not very sure of it. But check out the link i have attached, this website has a lot of useful information about remote wotk etc!
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by LocalPCGuy on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @04:58PM (#23774156)
A significant number of companies, particularly those in Silicon Valley, adjust remote pay based on cost of living in various areas.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:09PM (#23776020)
Amazon seems to adjust their base salary up in Seattle. But even an L5 at Amazon even if with a 10% discount is much more than I could make here.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:35PM (#23775819)
There is a slight premium for Seattle and maybe NYC, but besides that according to Levels.fyi, I’m right in line with the average total comp.

I know someone who applied for a similar role (one level up) at Amazon who lives in MiddleOfNowhere Nebraska and he made about the same as someone who lives in Seattle.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by manishsharan on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:38AM (#23770286)
I wanna do it so bad .. but the whole Covid recession thing as made me scared stiff and stuck.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:37PM (#23775836)
I went from a company with 50 employees, I was not planning on making a move for another year at least and then Covid happened along with pay cuts. Why wouldn’t I try to work for one of the largest companies in the US?

There was no harm in trying.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by turdnagel on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:38AM (#23769746)
What does "playing the game" mean for you? How have you changed how you approach work or a new job?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:57AM (#23769891)
Constantly job hopping, resume driven development, networking and being better at politics and soft skills.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by dehrmann on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:30PM (#23771463)
> soft skills

Improving soft skills isn't the same as playing the career development game by job hopping. Soft skills are as much a part of a developer job as programming. I'd actually argue it's the harder part.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:40PM (#23775849)
A developer with soft skills can pivot into being an overpaid “digital transformation consultant” or “enterprise architect”.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by swagonomixxx on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:57AM (#23770481)
This is not meant to be offensive in any way, as I'm not judging your entire being just by the way you approach employment, but developers that do "resume driven development" are by far the worst to work with, and are so obvious to spot.

Resume driven development often involves not giving a damn about what you're actually trying to solve, and trying to make what you're doing sound as impressive as possible to onlookers who have no clue what you actually did. Complicated architectures, hip technologies, fancy percentage based "improvements", it's all bollocks.

I agree largely that Western society has created a work culture where working for "the man" is not a desirable thing to do; employment, by and large, should not be the purpose of our lives. There are so many other things, like social life, family, sports, playing the guitar, and so on, that humans can do so well, but because of the capitalist structures that have been put in place where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, it's not hard to understand why this kind of approach to employment exists.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by maerF0x0 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:31AM (#23770875)
> are by far the worst to work with, and are so obvious to spot.

So? It gets them hired and at better rates than those who accurately estimate the size of the projects to boot.

Companies need to stop rewarding irrational behavior, but right now lack the right feedback loops including investors willing to "Venture" capital into a losing business, passive + TARP-like investing driving asset prices up despite inherent risks and bosses who care more about politics/appearances than facts.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:43PM (#23775866)
Well, once companies stop having policies where they only give internal employees slightly above cost of living raises and bringing in new employees in at market rates - ie salary compression and inversion - then maybe employees won’t look out for their own best interest.

The choices are either have relevant skills to keep yourself marketable or be willing to do the “leetCode monkey dance” and remember how to reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by hddherman on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:01AM (#23769928)
Other than a better financial situation, what else have you achieved doing this? This makes me feel like software development world is just some big hollow game where making a positive change to the world takes the back seat.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:07AM (#23769983)
Other than a better financial situation....

What other reason would I go to work everyday?

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by sombremesa on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:34AM (#23770254)
Once I had my first real existential crisis, I realized that the things I wanted to leave behind weren't things that someone else could've easily (and honestly, might as well have) done. Furthermore, I wanted to spend my life doing things I actually want to do.

So now I have a job that pays below market rate but leaves me with a lot more time, in which to write my novels. I have more than enough money - more money won't make me any happier, but less discretional time will certainly make me worse off.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by platz on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:39AM (#23770298)
you might feel different about this tradeoff when you're older (read: less easily in demand) or have family to support.

There is no such thing as having money to burn at the middle-class level unless you want to live on peanuts when you're in retirement.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by sombremesa on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:20AM (#23770750)
To begin with, I'm not a person who 'burns' money - I'm sure I'd be in a different place if I was.

When I say 'enough money' I don't just mean enough money for current expenses. In my opinion, there really is an amount of money beyond which you're probably just adding a measure of unhappiness to your life, if you're making money your first-order objective.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by nightski on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:16PM (#23771321)
You are correlating pursuing a higher salary with longer hours. That doesn't have to be the case. I quadrupled my income by just going freelance and I generally work 20-30 hours a week.

By focusing on money you can actually reduce your overall burden. In my humble opinion this far and away beats taking some low salary job just to get more time.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:46PM (#23775891)
“I wish I had less money”. Said no one ever.

While you are busy not being concerned about money. I bet your employer is glad to be getting you cheaply.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by rurp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:24PM (#23771998)
A great many people raise families and live comfortable lives on less money than a somewhat below market dev salary. If you want to live in the middle of San Francisco or buy luxury goods then sure, you need to strive to earn a lot of money, but that doesn't describe most people.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:52PM (#23775929)
Well, I guess I didn’t make it explicit that my being an “expert beginner” at 35 also meant that I was making a way below market salary and was (and I still am) way behind my retirement goals.

And with this being both my abs my wife’s second marriage didn’t do us any favors.

My base salary now is the same as it was pre-Covid pay cut and was more than enough to reach our short term needs and slowly meet our long term goals.

The RSUs+Bonus goes straight to long term goals - paying off the mortgage, cash flowing college for my son and saving for retirement.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:44PM (#23775878)
I don’t care about leaving things behind - I care about not being 70 years old and broke. The best case outcome is that we both spend our last penny when we are on our death bed.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ThrowawayR2 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:28AM (#23770845)
I feel bad for people whose are trapped by a paycheck in a career they don't love. STEM delights me and if I became financially independent, I'd probably still go on learning about and building software & hardware just for the fun of it.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by non-entity on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:35AM (#23770925)
> I feel bad for people whose are trapped by a paycheck in a career they don't love.

This is kinda of where I am right now. I still enjoy programming, but its becoming more and more apparent that I should have kept it as a hobby and pursued something else as a career.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by virgilp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @03:13PM (#23773246)
> I'd probably still go on learning about and building software & hardware just for the fun of it.

That's the thing - this is much easier to do when you're financially independent. If you have kids, and have to put them through school, and maybe have sick parents to care for - costs can add up fairly quickly; and it's easy to find yourself in a position where you can't lose your job, which is a lousy position to be in.

Interesting part is - it can also be easier to choose what you work for when you have more money (or at least that's been my personal experience so far). A different version of the "rich getting richer" dynamic, basically - it's easy to say "no" to stupid things, to avoid or leave crappy jobs. Also if you're highly paid that often means you're listened to/ your voice has some weight - so chances of working on stuff that delights you increase significantly.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:28PM (#23776126)
To put it more succinctly. It’s nice to be in a position of F%%% you.

(NSFW:Language)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:54PM (#23775942)
I have been programming as a hobby since the 80s when I was in middle school writing 65C02 assembly, I don’t hate my job, but by the time I graduated in the mid 90s, it became purely a method to maintain my short term addiction to food and shelter and my long term desire not to be old and broke.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by vitro on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:13PM (#23771289)
For a sense of an accomplishment and knowing that you have made world a bit better place while enjoying what you do, maybe?

Japanese has a nice word for it, "Ikigai".

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by redisman on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:46PM (#23771621)
Don't look to the Japanese for work-life balance though.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by mgkimsal on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:23AM (#23770134)
Arguably, "job satisfaction" is a factor as well, but... it's hard to have job satisfaction when you see others earning 50% more for doing less (or inferior) work, especially if it's in the same company. And it's also hard to have 'job satisfaction' when decisions are made outside your control. I can live with fewer decision making abilities if compensated for in other ways, and that's usually pay rate.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by discordance on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:21AM (#23770113)
Fulfillment through solving meaningful challenges?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by bpyne on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:55AM (#23771112)
I enjoy learning about the industrial area I'm in (higher education). I enjoy creating software that people use daily. I enjoy creative problem solving. I enjoy learning how different organizations fulfill their reason for being while handling operational details. I go to work for these reasons, as well as, a comfortable pay.

I don't mind working. I would just like to do it less. A few years ago I dropped to part-time in order to be in a grad program in CS. I found that 25 hours provided me with the perfect life balance.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by joshspankit on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:59AM (#23770501)
I mean based on the comment, presumably “making a positive change to the world”
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by shuntress on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:53AM (#23770434)
It's not specific to software development. Every field has people who's main focus is to "climb the ladder".

Whether making a positive change to the world is in the front or back seat (or in the vehicle at all) will depend on company culture and may even differ within a single org.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ivanche on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:43AM (#23770993)
Better financial situation * many, many years = freedom. You have to live like no one else until, one day, you'll live like no one else.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by war1025 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:37PM (#23771534)
Sounds like the whole Mexican fisherman story.

I make good money. I work 10am-5pm every day. I don't make as much money as people who are more career oriented.

But I also save 50% of my paycheck even factoring in that I have a wife and three kids, and my wife stays home with them. What's the point of chasing more money? If anything, I'd like to scale back, but that's not the easiest thing to do.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by shrimp_emoji on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:23AM (#23770139)
This post makes me want to usher in the socialist revolution.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by mahaganapati on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:10PM (#23771253)
Can you explain further how you got out of that, or what you did to changes things for the better?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:26PM (#23776102)
I start looking at job boards, talking to local recruiters and seeing which technologies were trending on the hype cycle.

I then job hopped when my current company was either not keeping my salary at market rates or were getting behind technologically. I left one job that had two products - a legacy PHP product and a new C# project that was using then current technology.

The C# product wasn’t gaining traction after two years, raises were anemic and they moved everyone to the PHP product. There was no way that I wanted to spend a year doing PHP. I left.

But the smartest but riskiest move I made the next time I was looking for a job was to leave a full time job for a contract to perm where I would get the chance to build a development department and lead two green field projects.

That’s where I first (belatedly) learned about AWS and discovered how much “cloud consultants” made.

Once those two projects were done, I self demoted to a senior developer where the newly minted CTO wants someone to make the company “cloud native”. I jumped on every single project and took the lead on introducing AWS services.

Just from working at those two companies I was able to get my current job.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by nython on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:58PM (#23773113)
How do you decide which skills would look good on your resume?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by christiansakai on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:43AM (#23769287)
This. Agree with all that you said.

I wonder if this will keep me stagnant in my programming chops. But at the same time I realize that expanding the chops is diminishing returns for my life from all angles, including satisfaction and finance. I have hobbies, families, communities that I serve and are expanding other non programming skills.

That being said, at the same time I also kinda don't know what is fun anymore about programming. I think for me, creating real stuffs that real people can use is always fun, but at the same time I don't have ideas. Many (useless) ideas are already reiterated over and over again by people posted on Github/Reddit.

I tried to go deeper into a specific implementation, like for example database engine or compiler. But I realized that wasn't as fun as I thought it to be.

In terms of programming, I always liked learning programming languages, but it gets old real fast. Once that is over, I don't know what else should I do. I'm thinking of learning OCaml next. Or maybe I should try other field of programming like game development. Or maybe I should just be content not doing any programming related hobbies anymore and just stick with my other hobbies.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by NortySpock on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:57AM (#23771128)
I have at least found writing video games to be a fun hobby so far.

Currently just doing 80's clones for fun and practice.

https://nortyspock.github.io/asteroids-p5/

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by christiansakai on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:36PM (#23771529)
Pretty cool!
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pydry on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:08AM (#23769495)
Personally I think it's because in most companies developing your technical skills after 2-4 years of professional experience does not translate into career development.

This is a side effect of having non technical managers. They cannot judge your technical skills beyond a certain point. They can judge your people skills and domain knowledge. They reward improvements in what they can judge.

The above doesn't apply in tech companies and in tech hubs. It applied to me when I searched for jobs in a relative backwater only (and as somebody who wanted to advance technically it was frustrating).

This is why I think you'd be more likely to find expert beginners in Maryland or Singapore than in San Fran or New York.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by blahbhthrow3748 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:25AM (#23769626)
You're kidding yourself if you think SF is a magical land where knowing to reverse a B Tree gets you promoted. Realistically managers promote people based on tenure, who they get along with, and what they ship. Being able to communicate and understand the problem space is way more valuable than some arbitrary technical "skill"
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:29AM (#23769667)
Or you get promoted because you spearheaded yet another chat app that gets abandoned two years later in the case of Google.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by beefalo on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:57AM (#23771127)
To be fair, if you are the engineer leading that project and it ships on time and on budget then you are still worthy of promotion. The product leaders who thought another chat app was a good idea are the ones who need a reckoning
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by allenu on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:15AM (#23770703)
Or spinning up yet another framework at any large software company.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pydry on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:54AM (#23769874)
My experience was with diffing London and Singapore. It wasn't like London was in any way magical, but there was a night and day difference in the quality of technical interviews.

In Singapore if you previously worked at Google you were golden even if you were a goddamn moron and technical tests were done incredibly badly or not at all. I could see why people didn't improve their technical skills and why expert beginners were omnipresent. Nobody was going to reward them for it.

In London that sort of thing exists too but companies that interview on merit rather than pedigree did at least exist and weren't extremely uncommon.

I have limited experience of SF but I expect it is more like London than Singapore.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by devalgo on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:28AM (#23770848)
Ironically, Daedtech is highly highly critical of the typical tech interview patterns you seem enamored by.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pydry on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:32AM (#23770888)
I have been a persistent critic of leetcode since before it even had a name. My favored interview style has always been "give realistic tasks within reason".

Leetcode was common in Singapore, because if you google programmer questions that's what comes up.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by devalgo on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:53AM (#23771083)
Well I made a bad assumption, guess it wasn't clear from your post.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pydry on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:07PM (#23771852)
It's fair enough. Leetcode does bizarrely seem to be more popular in SF than it should be.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by neutronicus on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:08AM (#23769991)
Hey, leave Maryland out of this.

DC's a tech hub, people from SF and NY just don't realize 'cause they don't know 'bout that government contracting ecosystem.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by bcrosby95 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:18AM (#23770084)
Do you have 10 years experience, or do you have 1 years experience repeated 10 times?

I feel like the article and the hype cycle push us towards the latter rather than the former. Which is awkward because that seems like a good, concise definition of expert beginner: someone that has 1 years experience repeated 10 times.

Of course, it can pay well to be certain kinds of expert beginners.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by aledalgrande on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:36PM (#23772156)
I feel like there has to be a balance. Only working for one company for a long time is not good either.

I haven't found a person who never left for 20 years who was hella good at their job yet. I know there must be some though.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by Frost1x on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:34AM (#23769713)
>Maybe developers stop learning because they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development.

This is definitely my feeling. After awhile, you've created most the types of functionalities and at some point, you start to see a lot of the same functional outcomes from shifting technology and shuffling abstractions. At that point, it's literally just the tedious effort of learning some new abstraction someone decided to create and some sensible flow within their set of abstractions from start to functional product. You end up dealing with slightly different processes that require tedious time investments to suss out.

Sometimes it's a useful shuffle. You gain a more rapid development process, things are easier, you gain additional functionality than previous approaches for similar efforts. A lot of times it's literally just "ah, new shiny" and you can't be bothered to deal with "ah, new shiny" with your free time as you felt you had to as a beginner/novice (spending several weekends and evenings or so of your free time). You've also, through your career, been forced to deal with these transitions due to someone else's decisions and been burnt multiple times learning to do the same thing slightly differently because someone else in charge or a group with momentum was sold by new shiny.

At some point you learn to assess new shiny before you invest time into it. You've seen the marketing tricks, you've seen the tech industry dazzle with ambiguity/complexity tricks, and you frankly would rather go exercise, spend time with family, or do anything else but be trapped investing personal free time due to some business scheme. Unfortunately, a lot of other people haven't learned to objectively assess new shiny and fall into the marketing and ambiguity traps. It may be business leaders, it may be younger developers eager to 'improve' with new shiny because it's going to be "paradigm shifting," etc. Ultimately, momentum builds and you either join the club being sucked into new shiny (where a lot of resume driven development starts, IMHO) or are left behind.

It's amazing how people continuously fall in these silly traps. I'm not saying all change is bad, there are some improvements and some tech has to be kept current to remain interoperable with other tech. I am saying that a lot of it is an absolute waste, and this is why you have these 'Expert Beginners' -- those who realize outside of tech, the vast majority won't see imporovements and inside of tech, the improvements for adopting a new technology are often questionable (if even existent).

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by matz1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:44AM (#23770349)
>The older I am the more I'm convinced that development is not individual thing - it's a team sport

I don't know, maybe development should be individual thing. Less bureaucracy, less politics, you get to control more. Besides other human can be finicky.

These days I rather be full stack dev.

Good thing is technology, due to non stop advancement, inherently enables individual to do more and more.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by swagonomixxx on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:00AM (#23770528)
Nothing is stopping you from being a full stack dev, but teamwork, while it is tricky to achieve and execute on, is very valuable once it's there. This is speaking from my experience.

Most often I found that bringing on junior developers and mentoring them very closely brings about a very strong team bond. These developers also inevitably become very productive pillars of a team.

Of course, there's always going to be a place for solo work - by teamwork I don't mean constantly pair programming (although doing it a little bit is a good learning experience for fresh grads) - I just mean collaboration, communication, the like.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by goalieca on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:12AM (#23770031)
Sometime during grad school, I stopped focusing on learning individual technologies and started focusing on keeping up with ideas and philosophies. I'm very happy with that decision now 10+ years later.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by Mangalor on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:40PM (#23772213)
Seconded. I find it's the power-hungry managers in the industry who push this idea that unless a software engineer knows "literally everything about everything" they'll always be inferior, especially as compared to some abstract "Perfect Google Engineer" which I've never actually met in real life and seems a lot like Bigfoot.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by overgard on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:51AM (#23769346)
The problem isn't their averageness though, it's when they impose it on the team. Ive worked with some team leads that were technically average but allowed others to use their skills and they were fine. It's when they invented bad standards that it was a problem.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by peruvian on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:01AM (#23769438)
What I've learned is that most companies are fine with these so-called "expert beginners".
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by polotics on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:31AM (#23769695)
Until they badly fail in the market with their expensive brittle software...
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:27AM (#23769653)
Until they aren’t and you are looking for a new job.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by georgeecollins on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:59PM (#23772471)
One of the ways to make space for growth and learning is to say no to more things at your job. I wish I had started this earlier in my career. I used to think it was important to do everything people asked me to do, even if I couldn't do them all really well.

The truth is organizations only respect you for the things you do well and that an organization thinks is important. (So if you are great at documentation for example, and the organization doesn't prioritize that, don't be surprised that no one cares. Etc.)

Doing things you are not very good at or don't have time for only damages your brand. Saying no is also a way to test the waters about how much what you are doing is valued. Imagine part of your job is X, and someone says: "Can you do Y?" You say: "I can't I am working on X." If they say do Y instead, its a hint that either X isn't that important or people don't think you are valuable to it. Find that out!

People will waste your time with meaningless or unimportant work. It is one of the ways that they tell you that they don't really value your contribution. Or not. The way to find out is to try no.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by StreamBright on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:46PM (#23772986)
> Maybe developers stop learning because they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development.

The biggest improvement I ever had as a developer came from reimplementing the same thing in Lisp and OCaml that I previously done in Java. It was quite eye opening to see how much more concise I could be if leaving the mainstream languages and started to use something more advanced (also niche at the same time). After having discussions about this with me peers who completed formal education in CS, they explained to me many concepts that I was not aware of and turned my attention to functional programming and ML languages in general. As of today I am even more convinced that doing the same thing in different languages / environments helps me understand the problem domain better, select the right tool for the job and become a better engineer.

> The older I am the more I'm convinced that development is not individual thing - it's a team sport.

I agree. We usually do these implementation exercises as team work.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:47AM (#23770372)
Work-life balance is important, but this:

> they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development

is quite an arrogant view to take on new technologies. It assumes that the sole reason people use new things is a combination of ignorance and boredom. There may be some of that involved in some cases, but even re-inventions of the wheel usually come with a fresh perspective and incremental improvements over the last time. More importantly, knowing the technology of the day allows you to relate to and collaborate with others, which is most certainly not a waste of time.

Turning down applicants who have the above mindset isn't ageism.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pjmlp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:55AM (#23770461)
Might be arrogant, but after rewriting the same stuff over Sun RPC, CORBA, DCOM, DCE, XML-RPC, SOAP, WebServices, BPEL, RMI, Remoting, REST, gRPC,.... eventually it gets tiring.

Or deploying stuff over HP-UX Vaults, J2EE/JEE containers, mainframe language environments, VMs, Docker, k8s, lambdas (CGIs just got rediscovered),....

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by jcmontx on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:59AM (#23770512)
I mean, I totally get your point, but these protocols/technologies solve specific problems quite well. In most cases is not an arbitrary decision.

A different case would be rewriting your Angular app in Vue just because the latter is more shiny.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by gonzo41 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:54AM (#23771086)
There's probably no better language on earth to build a data warehouse in than java yet i fully expect to see a BI book on Javascript OLAP technologies within my lifetime. You use what you grow up with.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:11PM (#23771264)
> There's probably no better language on earth to build a data warehouse in than java

Slightly OT, but I'm curious why that is?

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by gonzo41 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:48PM (#23775905)
Because so many data warehouses has been built in it. Most significant problems have been solved traditional star schema/snowflake schema fact table oriented systems. And a change in language ins't going to open new doors that otherwise remain closed now.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by hodgesrm on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:12PM (#23776348)
Not sure I agree. SIMD instructions, vectorized query, and low-level memory management are hard to implement in Java. Plus there's genuine uncertainty about the future of the language. I would not implement a new data warehouse in Java at this point.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pjmlp on Thursday July 09, 2020 @12:55AM (#23777061)
Intel and Linaro have contributed SIMD support, although it might be harder than using something like C++.

Not only is the language open source, while during Sun days it was only free beer, there are several contributors, and Microsoft has acquired jClarity, started contributing to OpenJDK, gives parity with .NET tooling on Azure, alongside Red-Hat supports Java on VSCode.

Ah, even Java has had more talks at Build 2020 than F# or VB.

The only uncertainty is from the anti-Java, Oracle hating crowd, for everyone else, companies using IBM, Red-Hat, Adobe, SAP,.... products, it is business as usual.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by closeparen on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:37PM (#23771543)
The category "RPC framework" solves a specific problem quite well, but it's doubtful that each incarnation is really a sufficient improvement on all those that came before it to justify re-learning and migrating.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pjmlp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:19AM (#23770744)
The problem being how to sell new tech, books, consulting contracts....
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by tuesdayrain on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @04:21PM (#23773817)
Angular vs Vue is not an arbitrary decision either, the developer experience is massively different.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:02AM (#23770550)
Try adopting a perspective of curiosity: "How does this new tech work? What new benefits might it provide?" Or at least one of professional duty. All knowledge workers have to keep up with the latest developments in their field; lawyers have to study up on the new case law, doctors have to read medical journals.

If you've decided ahead of time that it's a drudgery, you're only going to make yourself miserable. You don't have to spend all of your free time on it, but you do have to remain flexible and open-minded. You may as well try to find something there to enjoy.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pjmlp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:21AM (#23770770)
Most of this new tech is mostly created with the purpose of generating new business, that is all.

As Alan Kay perfectly puts it, fashion driven industry, and naturally one must keep themselves fashionable.

So up one goes rewriting that working WCF service into gRPC, because fashion.

But is ok, after all someone needs to pay those consulting rates and keep projects rolling, book industry happy with introduction and best practices books, and new themes for conferences, and most importantly blog posts with postmortems regarding technology migrations.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:00PM (#23771167)
You're just reiterating the cynical mindset that I'm recommending against, because it's:

a) Atrophic to one's career

b) Just a generally miserable way to live as a programmer

I don't believe things are so bleak, and I think people would benefit from being open to that possibility.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by acituan on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:59PM (#23773124)
> a) Atrophic to one's career

Career growth after entry level rarely hinges on acquisition of technical knowledge. If anything, technical knowledge is the easiest to acquire which is why entry levels can claim it without much work experience. Organizational navigation, team work, delivering actual results, knowing how and when to apply those skills (and when not to) mostly come with experience, and those are going to be the determining factors for promotions beyond entry levels.

> b) Just a generally miserable way to live as a programmer

I would argue it is more miserable to not have developed those tacit skills so that keeping up with the latest and greatest is the only element of competitive advantage to stay relevant. I would also speculate this might be the reason why juniors tend to over-emphasize the latest tech as the greatest tech, because they don't think they have anything else to be competitive in the job market.

Curiosity is not an algorithmic virtue, it doesn't apply to every case. It needs to be tempered with a dose of conservatism to deliver results in real world.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by pjmlp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:41PM (#23771582)
I do enterprise consulting, if it generates new business opportunities I am all ears, regardless my cynical view.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ardy42 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:52PM (#23772374)
> Try adopting a perspective of curiosity: "How does this new tech work? What new benefits might it provide?" Or at least one of professional duty. All knowledge workers have to keep up with the latest developments in their field; lawyers have to study up on the new case law, doctors have to read medical journals.

I think part of the problem is that some fraction of "new tech" is substantially just a reinvention of the wheel and/or oscillating fads, but it's all presented as "new therefore obviously superior" to what came before.

Others have probably said it better, but tech needs more study of history.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @05:42PM (#23774558)
Like I said, often it's not that simple. Each iteration on re-inventing the wheel usually incorporates some new lessons learned. I won't disagree that more perspective on history would be a good thing, but that's no reason to dismiss it all wholesale.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by sumanthvepa on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:04AM (#23770577)
Very true. In addition not all new tech is repetitive. The state of the art in computer science is advancing very rapidly in many areas. For me, learning involves actively attempting to understand and reproduce some of the latest research in my field. Some of that involves figuring out how to use a new framework or tool. And that some of that is repetitive, but the context in which it is needed is not. So the learning is valuable to me personally.

Secondly, I don't learn technology to make myself more valuable in the marketplace. At least, that is not the primary objective. I learn new technology, to make myself more efficient and the products I build better. And since I'm in the somewhat fortunate position of owning all the intellectual property I create, it's also in my best financial interest to learn.

Also, as I get older, I find the mental exercise of forcing myself into doing things differently is a lot of fun. To be honest: gaining mastery and learning is just plain fun. Thats why I do it.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by csa on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:33AM (#23770897)
> but even re-inventions of the wheel usually come with a fresh perspective and incremental improvements over the last time

I appreciate what you are saying, and I definitely think that some folks take the "here we go again" attitude towards a new approach that may very likely have a significant and positive impact on whatever they are working on. That said...

That situation strikes me as relatively rare. More often than not, I see people get excited about whatever the new flavor-of-the-month hotness is, and they forget about real world issues. One simple example is when the cost in money and (possibly) morale is not taken into account when switching from one technology to another. Sure, you may get a 1% incremental improvement in some metric that may save you X dollars, but the switch will cost 5x dollars to implement with additional soft costs like potential loss of morale and potential loss of efficiency due to lack of familiarity with the new system. I see this type of decision making frequently, and I consider it extremely poor form.

I think it's really important to ask why something needs to be done and to ask what the actual costs of switching are (esp. for folks on the front line). If the answer to why is "it will get someone a promotion for little or no benefit" or "a leader somewhere wants to brag / humble-brag about the new hotness with their peers", then the decision to use a new technology can usually be postponed to a later date. These are not uncommon scenarios, and they frequently cost companies dearly.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by _bxg1 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:52AM (#23771076)
We can debate all day about specific tradeoffs made for specific projects - I would almost never advocate a rewrite just for the sake of using a newer technology unless it has more-than-incremental benefits - but that's not what I'm talking about.

All I'm really trying to argue against is the mindset that "I could technically do this with the technology I've been comfy with for the past decade, therefore this new technology's entire existence is a waste of time and it's a waste of my time to learn about it." Learning != rewriting. And new projects != rewriting. It may end up being as simple as, "I just lost my job and nobody uses the technology I was using there any more, so now I can't get hired."

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ThrowawayR2 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:01AM (#23770534)
> "It assumes that the sole reason people use new things is a combination of ignorance and boredom."

Of course it's not the sole reason; fad chasing, herd following, and résumé driven development are reasons as well. :)

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by alexandercrohde on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:07AM (#23770603)
I would turn down applicants who don't have this mindset. The last thing I need is a dev who never mastered postgres because they were too busy learning mongo.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by NumberCruncher on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:41AM (#23769782)
> Maybe developers stop learning because they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development.

And maybe because they realize that the majority of those 167 technologies only exist because someone said "Making frameworks and generalization is the only reason I manage to keep doing what I do." [source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13734009]

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by tomg on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:32PM (#23772112)
> Maybe developers stop learning because they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development.

Yes! A few months back I was feeling quite burnt out over this feeling.

Taking a step back and focusing on a wider variety of work / hobbies / projects did wonders for my work motivation and ability.

It seems to me that taking on a larger, wider variety of mental tasks actually improves ones ability to focus on a single one, instead of spending all energy on one task (or job).

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by jiveturkey on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @02:27PM (#23772799)
interesting idea in theory. won't work in practice.

the 4h has to be shared. everyone on the team has to be in menstrual synchrony, so to speak. this type of work requires one to get "in the zone", or achieve the "flow" state. everyone has different biorhythms and won't even maintain the same time schedule on a daily basis or even weekly basis.

in an 8hr day you might get 3-4hr of good performance. yes you can do better, but not on a sustained basis. yes more hours per day will give you more but after 8 it really starts to become a diminishing returns thing.

if you tell people to only do 4hr of work, the output is going to be 1-2 hr of efficient work.

you are basically claiming it's a team sport but want to apply a principle that would only work for you personally. now if you can hire only people "like you" then you're golden. or, if you can pay (say) 2-5x market, fire quickly, compel people to have a very specific training-like schedule with execute-or-GTFO practices, have a high demand but high performance environment, only hire high experienced devs, then you might have something. it's not generalizable to the extent that it is usable advice or recommendation.

lastly does your 4h of work include communication and coordination functions? if so, it's reduced to 2h of work.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by dustingetz on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:40AM (#23769268)
167 tech that does the same thing is a failure of abstraction

Idea: what we're actually measuring is the speed of human reasoning vs the business value of time-to-market.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by r34 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:28AM (#23769663)
Personally I measure happiness and fullness of life :)
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by dustingetz on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:07AM (#23769975)
So that's kind of the root of the problem – "sufficiently strong optimization of a specific target destroys all external value"
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by gherkinnn on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:03AM (#23769946)
> Maybe developers stop learning because they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development.

I agree that doing the same thing 167 times is real improvement. Though I don't believe that to be the reason for the expert beginner.

I've seen countless people learn that one technology just well enough to scrape by. Not a bit further. And going further can be done during work hours.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by tuesdayrain on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:20AM (#23770751)
>they realize that that to learn how to do the same thing with 167 technologies is not a real development

I think this is a bit of a loaded statement. Phrased this way, who could argue that learning to do the same thing with 167 technologies is real development? If you listed out the technologies, I'm sure you'd get plenty of responses from people who disagree that they actually are doing the same thing. As a frontend dev, the technologies I'm aware of all have vastly different developer experiences and tradeoffs.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by jayd16 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:41AM (#23770974)
You should keep learning. Technology has and does progress.

Part of your duty as a professional is to separate out the hype from the useful.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by honkycat on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:19PM (#23771364)
I agree with you about how everything blends together, and that you don't necessarily have to focus only on "improving as a developer", however, expert beginners are absolutely a thing and something I have had to deal with multiple times in my career.

I just got done wit a brutal job search. I call this attitude "losing the fear." I would not be so sure the next 100k job is waiting for you if you are not improving yourself.