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Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by turdnagel on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:38AM (#23769746)
What does "playing the game" mean for you? How have you changed how you approach work or a new job?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:57AM (#23769891)
Constantly job hopping, resume driven development, networking and being better at politics and soft skills.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by dehrmann on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:30PM (#23771463)
> soft skills

Improving soft skills isn't the same as playing the career development game by job hopping. Soft skills are as much a part of a developer job as programming. I'd actually argue it's the harder part.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:40PM (#23775849)
A developer with soft skills can pivot into being an overpaid “digital transformation consultant” or “enterprise architect”.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by swagonomixxx on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:57AM (#23770481)
This is not meant to be offensive in any way, as I'm not judging your entire being just by the way you approach employment, but developers that do "resume driven development" are by far the worst to work with, and are so obvious to spot.

Resume driven development often involves not giving a damn about what you're actually trying to solve, and trying to make what you're doing sound as impressive as possible to onlookers who have no clue what you actually did. Complicated architectures, hip technologies, fancy percentage based "improvements", it's all bollocks.

I agree largely that Western society has created a work culture where working for "the man" is not a desirable thing to do; employment, by and large, should not be the purpose of our lives. There are so many other things, like social life, family, sports, playing the guitar, and so on, that humans can do so well, but because of the capitalist structures that have been put in place where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, it's not hard to understand why this kind of approach to employment exists.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by maerF0x0 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:31AM (#23770875)
> are by far the worst to work with, and are so obvious to spot.

So? It gets them hired and at better rates than those who accurately estimate the size of the projects to boot.

Companies need to stop rewarding irrational behavior, but right now lack the right feedback loops including investors willing to "Venture" capital into a losing business, passive + TARP-like investing driving asset prices up despite inherent risks and bosses who care more about politics/appearances than facts.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:43PM (#23775866)
Well, once companies stop having policies where they only give internal employees slightly above cost of living raises and bringing in new employees in at market rates - ie salary compression and inversion - then maybe employees won’t look out for their own best interest.

The choices are either have relevant skills to keep yourself marketable or be willing to do the “leetCode monkey dance” and remember how to reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by hddherman on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:01AM (#23769928)
Other than a better financial situation, what else have you achieved doing this? This makes me feel like software development world is just some big hollow game where making a positive change to the world takes the back seat.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:07AM (#23769983)
Other than a better financial situation....

What other reason would I go to work everyday?

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by sombremesa on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:34AM (#23770254)
Once I had my first real existential crisis, I realized that the things I wanted to leave behind weren't things that someone else could've easily (and honestly, might as well have) done. Furthermore, I wanted to spend my life doing things I actually want to do.

So now I have a job that pays below market rate but leaves me with a lot more time, in which to write my novels. I have more than enough money - more money won't make me any happier, but less discretional time will certainly make me worse off.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by platz on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:39AM (#23770298)
you might feel different about this tradeoff when you're older (read: less easily in demand) or have family to support.

There is no such thing as having money to burn at the middle-class level unless you want to live on peanuts when you're in retirement.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by sombremesa on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:20AM (#23770750)
To begin with, I'm not a person who 'burns' money - I'm sure I'd be in a different place if I was.

When I say 'enough money' I don't just mean enough money for current expenses. In my opinion, there really is an amount of money beyond which you're probably just adding a measure of unhappiness to your life, if you're making money your first-order objective.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by nightski on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:16PM (#23771321)
You are correlating pursuing a higher salary with longer hours. That doesn't have to be the case. I quadrupled my income by just going freelance and I generally work 20-30 hours a week.

By focusing on money you can actually reduce your overall burden. In my humble opinion this far and away beats taking some low salary job just to get more time.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:46PM (#23775891)
“I wish I had less money”. Said no one ever.

While you are busy not being concerned about money. I bet your employer is glad to be getting you cheaply.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by rurp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @01:24PM (#23771998)
A great many people raise families and live comfortable lives on less money than a somewhat below market dev salary. If you want to live in the middle of San Francisco or buy luxury goods then sure, you need to strive to earn a lot of money, but that doesn't describe most people.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:52PM (#23775929)
Well, I guess I didn’t make it explicit that my being an “expert beginner” at 35 also meant that I was making a way below market salary and was (and I still am) way behind my retirement goals.

And with this being both my abs my wife’s second marriage didn’t do us any favors.

My base salary now is the same as it was pre-Covid pay cut and was more than enough to reach our short term needs and slowly meet our long term goals.

The RSUs+Bonus goes straight to long term goals - paying off the mortgage, cash flowing college for my son and saving for retirement.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:44PM (#23775878)
I don’t care about leaving things behind - I care about not being 70 years old and broke. The best case outcome is that we both spend our last penny when we are on our death bed.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ThrowawayR2 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:28AM (#23770845)
I feel bad for people whose are trapped by a paycheck in a career they don't love. STEM delights me and if I became financially independent, I'd probably still go on learning about and building software & hardware just for the fun of it.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by non-entity on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:35AM (#23770925)
> I feel bad for people whose are trapped by a paycheck in a career they don't love.

This is kinda of where I am right now. I still enjoy programming, but its becoming more and more apparent that I should have kept it as a hobby and pursued something else as a career.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by virgilp on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @03:13PM (#23773246)
> I'd probably still go on learning about and building software & hardware just for the fun of it.

That's the thing - this is much easier to do when you're financially independent. If you have kids, and have to put them through school, and maybe have sick parents to care for - costs can add up fairly quickly; and it's easy to find yourself in a position where you can't lose your job, which is a lousy position to be in.

Interesting part is - it can also be easier to choose what you work for when you have more money (or at least that's been my personal experience so far). A different version of the "rich getting richer" dynamic, basically - it's easy to say "no" to stupid things, to avoid or leave crappy jobs. Also if you're highly paid that often means you're listened to/ your voice has some weight - so chances of working on stuff that delights you increase significantly.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @09:28PM (#23776126)
To put it more succinctly. It’s nice to be in a position of F%%% you.

(NSFW:Language)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by scarface74 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @08:54PM (#23775942)
I have been programming as a hobby since the 80s when I was in middle school writing 65C02 assembly, I don’t hate my job, but by the time I graduated in the mid 90s, it became purely a method to maintain my short term addiction to food and shelter and my long term desire not to be old and broke.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by vitro on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:13PM (#23771289)
For a sense of an accomplishment and knowing that you have made world a bit better place while enjoying what you do, maybe?

Japanese has a nice word for it, "Ikigai".

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by redisman on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:46PM (#23771621)
Don't look to the Japanese for work-life balance though.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by mgkimsal on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:23AM (#23770134)
Arguably, "job satisfaction" is a factor as well, but... it's hard to have job satisfaction when you see others earning 50% more for doing less (or inferior) work, especially if it's in the same company. And it's also hard to have 'job satisfaction' when decisions are made outside your control. I can live with fewer decision making abilities if compensated for in other ways, and that's usually pay rate.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by discordance on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:21AM (#23770113)
Fulfillment through solving meaningful challenges?
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by bpyne on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:55AM (#23771112)
I enjoy learning about the industrial area I'm in (higher education). I enjoy creating software that people use daily. I enjoy creative problem solving. I enjoy learning how different organizations fulfill their reason for being while handling operational details. I go to work for these reasons, as well as, a comfortable pay.

I don't mind working. I would just like to do it less. A few years ago I dropped to part-time in order to be in a grad program in CS. I found that 25 hours provided me with the perfect life balance.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by joshspankit on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:59AM (#23770501)
I mean based on the comment, presumably “making a positive change to the world”
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by shuntress on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:53AM (#23770434)
It's not specific to software development. Every field has people who's main focus is to "climb the ladder".

Whether making a positive change to the world is in the front or back seat (or in the vehicle at all) will depend on company culture and may even differ within a single org.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by ivanche on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @11:43AM (#23770993)
Better financial situation * many, many years = freedom. You have to live like no one else until, one day, you'll live like no one else.
Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by war1025 on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @12:37PM (#23771534)
Sounds like the whole Mexican fisherman story.

I make good money. I work 10am-5pm every day. I don't make as much money as people who are more career oriented.

But I also save 50% of my paycheck even factoring in that I have a wife and three kids, and my wife stays home with them. What's the point of chasing more money? If anything, I'd like to scale back, but that's not the easiest thing to do.

Re:How Developers Stop Learning: Rise of the Expert Beginner... by shrimp_emoji on Wednesday July 08, 2020 @10:23AM (#23770139)
This post makes me want to usher in the socialist revolution.