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Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by jjallen on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:15PM (#22925960)
What I don't understand is why the sudden move today? Did the longs think they had a place to put the oil on Friday but found out over the weekend they had no place to put it? Just seems like you would know what to do with the oil on Friday. Note this is not a rhetorical question, I would sincerely like an answer.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by lordnacho on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:28PM (#22928141)
> What I don't understand is why the sudden move today? Did the longs think they had a place to put the oil on Friday but found out over the weekend they had no place to put it? Just seems like you would know what to do with the oil on Friday. Note this is not a rhetorical question, I would sincerely like an answer.

Guys like myself, an ex fund manager, could be tourists in the oil market. I know I was, speculating occasionally on oil without knowing a whole lot about the details. Plenty of macro guys are similar, they bet on the large movements as the opportunites present themselves and don't worry about the details.

So what has probably happened is some of these tourists have had a few contracts left over that they forgot about or didn't discover in their position keeping until their prime brokers phoned them, and they had to dump into a market under very special conditions. Hopefully not very many contracts.

In normal times if you screwed up and had to do delivery, it stil wouldn't be a big problem, because the storage is available and you essentially just buy it (by trading with a guy who actually knows how to organize it), costing relatively little.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by hermitdev on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:37PM (#22928886)
This reminds me of Brian Hunter [0] of Amaranth fame. He was on the wrong side of a huge (multi billion USD) long trade on Natural Gas. When faced with losing it all, he doubled down. Blew up Amaranth. $9B USD hedge fund blew up basically overnight. Margin calls, etc, etc.

Disclaimer: I worked for the hedge fund at the time that bought Amaranth's holdings for pennies on the dollar. Was supposed to be a joint buyout with JP Morgan Chase, but Chase couldn't calculate the risk in time before closing and left us with all of the eggs in the basket. We ended up making a killing on the deal as we had the assets to weather the margin calls. I still can't believe anyone gave B.H. any money to trade with after that, but someone did...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Hunter_(trader)

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by MR4D on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:18PM (#22929372)
One thing is clear to me - somebody is getting fired this week. Not sure if it's a hedge fund or producer, or a trader or a team, but someone is getting fired.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by baggy_trough on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:50PM (#22929706)
Everyone is getting fired.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by MR4D on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:17AM (#22931815)
Not likely. This could actually be one person/team who was out of balance on their book.

Back in 2008 when oil hit $150, it was due to a single trader. Needless to say, everyone in the industry was pissed at him afterwards.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by baggy_trough on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @05:45PM (#22939656)
Everyone in the economy is getting fired.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by divbzero on Monday April 20, 2020 @10:54PM (#22931363)
I recall Amaranth was recruiting on campus that week, and cancelled all interviews the very next week.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by loa_in_ on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:13PM (#22929324)
That man is one of a very small group according to this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rogue_traders

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by jjallen on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:22PM (#22936374)
Arguably he wasn't rogue, judging from John Arnold's account of the situation[0]. He just made way to big of a trade.

Think his account is somewhere between 10-20 minutes in this video 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=68&v=G6zFBzadTw0...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by 0x8BADF00D on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:44PM (#22928311)
A really risky (but I think worth the risk) bet is to buy the front and sell the back. You will receive a huge credit, and as long as you close out the back leg below what you sold for, you’re in the clear.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by lordnacho on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:51PM (#22928396)
This isn't possible, except for people who can deal with the physical logistics. If you buy the front, you need to put the stuff somewhere for a month.

Chances are the people who got stuck selling at negative prices were actually doing just what you describe, they just weren't planning on the spread blowing out from physical issues.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by 0x8BADF00D on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:53PM (#22928410)
I don’t see supercontango lasting forever. At some point oil demand will rise. Even if it’s a small rise.

And you typically should close out combination orders well before expiration.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by cascom on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:27PM (#22928768)
How do you not get eaten alive by the negative roll yield (super contango) if you don’t have access to storage?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:21PM (#22926020)
It’s called super contango.

And storage has not run out yet. Cushing is not full. The problem is traders are anticipating storage will become very expensive as remaining capacity decreases, so if you’re holding on to May contracts and you’re not using the oil because there’s a glut right now then you’re going to be paying a lot more to keep storing the oil for future months as storage costs go up. The huge discount reflects that cost.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by jjallen on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:25PM (#22926068)
Sorry to miss it, but how does this answer my question?

I asked why they weren't prepared on Friday. Storage has been expensive and getting more expensive for weeks. We've been in a massive contango for weeks. Why weren't they prepared on Friday for physical delivery?

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:29PM (#22926126)
Most oil traders don’t actually want physical delivery. They are just trying to profit off price movements. Traders have moved on to June contracts already. There’s no volume on May contracts at this point. No one wants to actually pay for physical delivery so the price is tanking since there are no bids as we get closer to expiration tomorrow.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by CountSessine on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:51PM (#22926416)
So does this mean that without bids there are potentially many traders, not refiners or tank farms, holding those contracts still? That those traders will get stuck with taking delivery because they couldn't unload their contracts?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:54PM (#22926455)
Yes
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by mcv on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:29PM (#22928155)
People with just a paper office, used to deal in numbers rather than anything physical, and with no place to store physical goods, will now have to figure out where and how to store lots of oil?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by hermitdev on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:43PM (#22928962)
Having worked in the finance industry my entire career, most (responsible) firms have means for dealing with taking physical delivery. Less responsible firms, not so much and may be royally screwed if they have to take delivery. I've heard anecdotally of a firm that had to take physical delivery of a shipment of coal. They didn't have plans in place, but because they had an address on a river, the coal arrived via barge. No, I don't recall the name of the firm, and yes, it's just an anecdote/hearsay.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by agurk on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:58PM (#22929773)
That story, or at least a very similar one is documented on the the daily WTF:

https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Special-Delivery

I've no idea if it is true, but it makes for a funny story at least.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by Arcorann on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:52PM (#22929731)
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by simonh on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:48PM (#22928344)
They would if they didn’t offload the contracts somehow, hence the negative prices. They are paying to get rid of that obligation.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by riskneutral on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:58PM (#22928469)
They already know how to store lots of oil. They can and do rent supertankers for example.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by dmurray on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:49PM (#22928363)
No. Their prime brokers will force them to sell it at the low (negative) price.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by kietdlam on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:48PM (#22926373)
You still haven't answered the question...
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by ToFundorNot on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:03PM (#22927167)
I'm going to try and translate the simplest concept that tempsy is saying.

The sellers were looking to sell for most of last week, however there fewer buyers as the contract approached its end, and those who were willing to buy wanted a lower price:

Volume of transactions on Friday was 344k, Thursday was 111m, Wednesday was 147m. In the past 30 days, the low was 686k (ex Friday), and the high was 459m. Traders slowed their buying so the market became one sided.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by thedudeabides5 on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:16PM (#22928028)
Because trading is hard and sometimes humans are dumb.

-Former dumb oil trader

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by hermitdev on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:45PM (#22928982)
> -Former dumb oil trader

+1 just for admitting it. :)

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by cma on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:09PM (#22927955)
That still doesn't answer: why wasn't it anticipated and reflected in earlier pricing (even if volume-weighted it would be a much smaller drop, it still seems to have been missed even from futures options)?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by andrewstuart2 on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:13PM (#22927997)
If you have the answer to the question you are asking, you should change careers into oil contract trading; you'll probably make a bundle.

In short, the reason nobody anticipated it is because the future is unknown. The reason any market is unpredictable is because there are too many variables to account for.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by cma on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:14PM (#22928005)
I think he's asking why the market didn't have a better estimate of storage capacity and utilization and what changed in the estimate from yesterday to today.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by andrewstuart2 on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:25PM (#22928114)
I think that has to do with how people sometimes do analysis for trading. There's fundamental analysis, which looks at exactly that when attempting to determine the price to bid for a security, but then there's the bubblier "technical analysis" which really just looks at historical and current trends and attempts to divine whether buying now means you might be able to sell in the future.

I'd imagine people just assumed perfect liquidity here, and that they'd be able to sell even "at a small loss which is better than nothing," not realizing that nothing or negative (i.e. you're gonna pay somebody to take this oil off your hands or build your own tanks) is a valid outcome.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by gowld on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:27PM (#22929472)
> assumed perfect liquidity

too bad the oil market is ... viscous.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by hermitdev on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:54PM (#22929082)
I'm going to take a stab at a possible reason the "market" didn't see this coming: Everyone expected the US to top off its strategic reserves, which so far hasn't really been happening. Now that You could be paid like $37 (west Texas crude closed at -$37.63) dollars/barrel, maybe the US will reconsider. I certainly wish I could store a few thousand barrels...

US companies don't want to stop producing oil. Couple that with the Russia/Saudi Arabia skuffle going on over oil prices, I'm not surprised. What surprises me is the absolutely rapid/rabid decline in the price. It just seems like pure insanity to me...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by nkurz on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:02AM (#22931730)
> Now that You could be paid like $37 (west Texas crude closed at -$37.63) dollars/barrel, maybe the US will reconsider.

Indeed, it looks like the US is reconsidering:

President Donald Trump said Monday the U.S. is "looking to" add as many as 75 million barrels of oil to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Trump spoke after an historic day in the oil CL.1, +103.61% markets, in which the May WTI crude contract closed at -$37.63 a barrel, a one-day drop of 306%. Trump said he was considering the move "based on the record low price of oil," and that the action would "top it out." Speaking at a White House press briefing, Trump said, "we'd get it for the right price."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-says-us-looking-to-a...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by Izkata on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:31PM (#22928815)
Based on a vague memory from years ago - so I could be totally wrong here - you're assuming knowledge he doesn't have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but: The people doing the trading are middlemen, and have no capacity period. They expected to be able to sell it all off to the energy companies, even at a loss, so they normally don't accept any physical product. But the energy companies ran out of capacity - something the middlemen (traders) don't have direct knowledge of - so got caught unexpected with contracts they can't sell, and now have to accept the physical product.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by dragonwriter on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:00PM (#22928494)
> That still doesn't answer: why wasn't it anticipated and reflected in earlier pricing

Because despite the people that like saying all future events are reflected in current prices, the fact is humans, both individually and aggregated into markets, are imperfectly prescient, thus future events are basically never perfectly priced in to to current market prices.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by JBSay on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:08AM (#22932705)
Nobody says that. All KNOWN future events are priced in. We are not doing divination here.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @06:40AM (#22933688)
> Nobody says that.

People say things to the effect of “if it is going to happen, it is already priced in” all the time, on HN even.

> All KNOWN future events are priced in.

There are no such thing as known future events. Market participants estimation of the likelihood of future events, weighted by inclination and capacity to invest, are priced in.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by berryjerry on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:42PM (#22928949)
The answer is, literally anyone with cash could sign up today and have an oil contract tomorrow. It is extremely easy to take part in oil contracts trading and those people who basically just have an office can't actually keep the contracts now and must unload. Contrary to what people think, you don't have to be an expert or have any special knowledge to trade physical contracts.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by OJFord on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:10PM (#22926622)
It might go negative - no, just has, as I write - if you were bag holding on Friday you might carry on in the hope of some recovery, but you don't want physical delivery so you were always going to sell today no matter what; closer it gets to expiry, or to $0, the more push has come to shove and you're finally closing your position.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by bluGill on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:56PM (#22926478)
Most traders don't have any oil to sell. What is left are those who have storage space making a deal on the traders too stupid to get out already. This isn't many, but since there is no demand those with storage space can offer very low prices and get the rest of them.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:02PM (#22926540)
things happen when you get closer to contract expiration. Today is closer than Friday.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by Digory on Monday April 20, 2020 @08:45PM (#22930627)
-$37.00 is a distress price, just for the unwitting investors who agreed to play “Hot Potato: Bloodsport.”

By definition, you’re looking at the price for people who wouldn’t want to play, if they could avoid playing. They are literally over a barrel. If they don’t get out, the broker gets to screw them even worse at the deadline.

Volume was up, because some people were going through heroics to close their position at all costs.

But the end of day price is for those who got screwed: the truly unaware who didn’t realize they were out of time, or didn’t think about it going past $0. It’s probably relatively few people, despite today’s volume. When you lose control, someone agrees for you that you’ll pay $37/bb to get out.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by selectodude on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:31PM (#22926153)
It's only a paper loss until you sell. Everybody was hoping and praying things would change and now that it's abundantly clear that it's not changing, they're desperately trying to unwind their positions.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:33PM (#22926181)
Not really. If you hold contracts at expiration (May expires tomorrow) then you are forced to take physical delivery of oil. No one wants oil right now, and if you take physical delivery you’re going to have to pay big premiums to store oil at Cushing. The discount reflects the premium storage costs.

Most oil traders just want to profit off price movements and not actually own physical oil. There’s no volume on May contracts now they’ve all moved on to June.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by SilasX on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:25PM (#22928103)
Do you know what happens if you can’t take physical delivery? As in the financial consequences including penalties assigned by the exchange?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by VLM on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:14PM (#22929334)
Chapter 200 doesn't go into much detail but chapter 7 (for metals) explains how the exchange will facilitate an independent middleman to store until arrangements are made and they will bill you for that service.

I have not been involved in chapter 200 operations but I've heard socially this occasionally happens relating to substandard product. "We agreed on light sweet crude in the contract but you tried to deliver sour tar". The exchange knows its all going to get dragged into court eventually, so they try to be fair and transparent and well documented. There are plenty of people renting tank space as a normal business operation.

I don't think you're going to get Force Majeure protection. That's for something neutral to all parties like a hurricane, not one side of the contract didn't feel like closing out and doesn't have tank space lined up.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by hermitdev on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:57PM (#22929124)
My understanding is you still take delivery. It might be in the form of a fleet of tankers or barges arriving at your office. But, you will take delivery, whether you like it or not. Any responsible trading firm that deals in futures should have mechanisms in place to deal with physical delivery.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by pbhowmic on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:48PM (#22927702)
Futures contracts are daily settled. So the difference between starting price and ending price has to be paid at end-of-day settlement.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by selectodude on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:57PM (#22927819)
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CL=F?p=CL=F

Prices didn't crash until this morning. Nobody was taking much of a loss before then.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by aguyfromnb on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:00PM (#22926527)
>I asked why they weren't prepared on Friday.

What, exactly, do you expect them do to "prepare"? Friday they had more time to unload the contracts, and today they have less.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by eru on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:24PM (#22926760)
How to prepare:

Sell futures on Friday, buy today (to close out the position). Profit from the predictable price difference.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by rocha on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:42PM (#22927612)
They have been trying to sell, but none was buying. The closer you get to the expiration date, the lower you are willing to go to sell. Since contracts expire tomorrow, traders are willing to go all the way to avoid getting physical delivery.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by eru on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:54PM (#22927783)
That's why I was suggesting the opposite:

(Short-) sell last Friday, buy today at about 0 to close the position.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by edoceo on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:22PM (#22927376)
Was it predictable tho?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by shadowgovt on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:53PM (#22927770)
Yes, it was predicted successfully (by everyone who is no longer holding a contract). It was also not predicted successfully (by everyone paying through the nose so they won't have to find a place to stash some barrels of a volatile compound).
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by eru on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:58PM (#22927834)
It wasn't predicted successfully on average. Otherwise Friday would have already anticipated today's price.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by fredophile on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:24PM (#22929449)
How far do you want to take that argument? If successfully predicting it would mean that prices dropped to zero on Friday then shouldn't that have also been successfully predicted and impacted the price on Thursday? What about Wednesday, Tuesday, Monday?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by eru on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:20AM (#22932774)
Yes, that's exactly right.

But no one expects perfect predictions far into the future.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by eru on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:31PM (#22927487)
Well, that was exactly the question!
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by fpoling on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:54PM (#22929081)
Read “Fooled by randomness” by Nassim Taleb.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by jliptzin on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:40PM (#22926268)
If cushing is not full, why aren't people buying at $2 a barrel now and storing for one month, selling the June contract at the same time and collecting a $20k profit per contract?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by freefal on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:52PM (#22927035)
This is a good question. The fact that people are not buying the May future at -$37/bbl and selling the June contract at $20/bbl tells you that Cushing storage must effectively be full and that the theoretical storage figures quoted in research are not practically usable (at least at short notice). It's very hard to imagine any practical means of storage that isn't wildly profitable to utilize for $57/bbl/month.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by markus_zhang on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:51PM (#22926415)
Mostly the storage cost. Let's go extreme, say you managed to grab the contract at $0, which may actually happen today. Now you need to 1) Find transportation and storage 2) Sell it on the market as quickly as possible, at a reasonable cost.

Pretty tough TBH, unless someone is planning a war in Middle East and is grabbing up the contracts and you know about it...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by zeusk on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:47PM (#22926365)
Because of storage costs and uncertainties, it wasn't only the saudi-russia fallout that caused this - demand has literally flatlined comparatively due to lockdowns everywhere.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by aguyfromnb on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:03PM (#22926547)
>why aren't people buying at $2 a barrel now and storing for one month, selling the June contract at the same time and collecting a $20k profit per contract?

Good question. The answer is because they don't think it will be profitable. Why aren't you?

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by jliptzin on Monday April 20, 2020 @09:55PM (#22931093)
Me, personally, because I don't even have a futures account at a broker that will let me take physical delivery, nor do I have any experience whatsoever renting tank space at the Cushing facility (which I didn't even know existed before today). But I guess the answer to my question seems to be that the cost of storing one contract worth of oil will, unbelievably, be more than $20,000 for the month.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by colinmhayes on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:06PM (#22927197)
I've never been to Cushing Oklahoma. I feel like it should be possible to build a big tank in a week or two. Why isn't available storage space skyrocketing?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by bmelton on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:42PM (#22927609)
I honestly don't even know if I can fathom how you could get permitted to build such a tank in a couple of weeks, but the answer to why that isn't happening _right now_ is probably because nobody wants to lay out a bunch of capital for a business that might do well contemporaneously but that has no future.

Either things settle back down to normal at some point, in which case you've made some revenue, but probably not recouped your investment. The Cushing facility managed to build 7 million bbl capacity in the early 90s for $60 million. I expect it would cost $80-100 million to build today. Current (inflated) storage costs are 50 cents per barrel. Let's say that rises a LOT and skyrockets to $2 - that's a gross of $14 million per month. Assuming $0 in overhead, you'd need for this contango to last for another 7 months to break even. If we assume something like a 30% margin, then you'd need it to last around two years.

Alternately, things don't return to normal. The market becomes depressed enough that airliners barely fly, and the global world consumption falls. The oil you're storing becomes cheaper to the point that storing it costs more than buying it, and there's nobody to sell it to. Your customers default, and your investment quickly becomes the thing that bankrupts you.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by colinmhayes on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:21PM (#22928080)
7 million barrels * $30 a barrel = 210 million just to take the oil. Plus $20 a barrel when you sell it brings you to $350,000,000 in revenue on a 7 million barrel tank. What am I missing, other than not being able to build the tank fast enough?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by bmelton on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:49PM (#22928360)
I mean, if you have a spare $300 million lying around, that sounds like a fantastic arbitrage opportunity, and (napkin math time) if you're holding the barrels for more than 10 months, that'd be the way to do it.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by evandijk70 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:38AM (#22934376)
You are probably right. And given that June futures went down since yesterday, and the May futures went up, someone is probably doing that right now.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by gridlockd on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:08PM (#22927944)
Great answer! Now let's forget about storing to sell later at a profit, at negative 37$, can't you just burn it for a profit?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by bmelton on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:45PM (#22928320)
Assuming you can transport a 100+ pound liquid filled drum to a disposal facility that meets federal guidelines for less than that cost, and don't care about the environment, absolutely... but the real trick here is in knowing that the people who are already using oil and have the capacity to store it ... are... so other than just burning it, for a couple hundred million, you could probably supplant your stationary oil consumption with a non-petroleum alternative.

It is ironically the portability of oil-refined products (gasoline, diesel) that makes it so appealing for things that aren't stationary -- planes, cars, etc.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by alasdair_ on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:26PM (#22927430)
There are regulations covering storing enormous quantities of oil, including certification of the holding tanks etc.

For example, any container over 55 gallons is subject to EPA regulation and counts towards the total permitted site quantity. Storing more than 1,320 gallons above ground requires the site to have an approved SPCC (Spill Prevention, Control, and Countermeasures) plan.

You can store 42,000 gallons below ground but that requires excavation, permits etc.

Basically: it's difficult to do on short notice.

Further reading: https://www.epa.gov/ust/aboveground-storage-tanks

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by WJW on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:27PM (#22927440)
There is a little bit more to an oil tank than just steel walls. You need proper foundations, fire prevention systems, disaster plans, probably get hooked up to the pipeline network, etc etc etc. Even if it were quick, the amount of oil being pumped up is massive and you need more than a few tanks to store it all. Finally, tanks are long term infrastructure and it might not be profitable to build out storage too much just in the hope of catching once-in-a-lifetime negative pricing events.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by jmccaf on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:45PM (#22927650)
Yeah, it's worth building these tanks safely. There was tank fire last year in Bay Area after a quake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=KMZjfWRXgTs Even if there is different level of risk and safety concern, and air quality regulation in rural Oklahoma vs urban CA bordering a highway, these can catch fire dramatically.

One point made when that fire occurred was that the tanks are placed in earthen basins, so that when tank fails, the flaming fuel just fills the basin, minimizing risk of spreading to neighboring tanks.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by kens on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:35PM (#22930129)
Speaking of oil tank fire prevention, videos of foam fire suppression systems are pretty impressive. A gasoline tank fire goes from massive flames billowing into the sky to totally extinguished in 40 seconds. For example: https://youtu.be/OxLPvNdv2t4?t=210
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by edoceo on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:25PM (#22927415)
It's not possible to build a tank in two weeks, even if you had all the material and equipment at the ready. Plus, capital intensive for what may only be a spike in storage.

These physical goods are much harder to store than bits.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by ncallaway on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:41PM (#22928279)
> I feel like it should be possible to build a big tank in a week or two.

When is the physical settlement of the contract? My understanding is that physical settlement of the May futures contract is 21 April (that is, tomorrow).

So you don't have a week or two to build your big tank. It needs to be finished tonight.

https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/crude-oil/light-swee...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by colinmhayes on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:59PM (#22928485)
Looks like first delivery isn't until may 1 according to that page.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by s1artibartfast on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:47PM (#22929006)
Our intuitions are so different I'm not sure if you are joking or not.

My guess is that the build time is 1-2 years with 5 years of permitting up front. I also imagine building capacity is capped with a limited number of trained engineers/welders.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by darkwizard42 on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:37PM (#22927554)
Many have answered about storage costs. Easy way to think about it might be a grocery store.

You hear about a sale on cereal for $0.01 a box. Great deal but then you find out that you can't walk there, you can only take Lyft/Uber and it costs $100 each way to get to the store. So in reality its not as good a deal as it sounds.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by NullPrefix on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:01PM (#22927863)
>you can only take Lyft/Uber and it costs $100 each way to get to the store

Hard to follow this analogy

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by eitally on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:11PM (#22927967)
The part about depending on only semi-reliable third parties for your logistics, or the part about the supply chain costs being 1000x your material cost?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by NullPrefix on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:09PM (#22928596)
The part where a trip to the grocery store costs $100
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by benibela on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:23PM (#22928739)
Surge pricing because everyone wants to get the deal there
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by NullPrefix on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:12PM (#22936253)
What's stopping you from taking a car or a bike ride to save $100?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by vkou on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:27PM (#22926782)
Because you can't just rent a U-Stor-it space, and dump a bunch of full oil barrels into it. You need a specialized facility.

And all of those facilities are full. The ones that aren't are charging an arm and a leg for storage services.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by sdffdsfdsfsddsf on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:59PM (#22927125)
What about tankers?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by Tuna-Fish on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:11PM (#22927233)
Also full. The proportion of the global tanker fleet that is just full of oil sitting off coast near refineries is at an all time high.

A lot of speculators were betting that oil prices were going to go up and had rented ships and filled them with oil they though was cheap, before COVID-19 even hit. Since then, oil prices have absolutely cratered.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by willturman on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:40PM (#22928267)
How do these tanker contracts work?

Are speculators leasing the tankers on a month to month basis? What happens when/if the tanker isn't offloaded at the end of a contract?

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by cascom on Monday April 20, 2020 @05:22PM (#22928712)
Typically most tankers are owner operated, under a long-term charter or on the spot market they are doing jobs that days/weeks/months

It’s a pretty efficient market

See this article (Suspect rates have climbed even further as the storage trade becomes more lucrative.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gauravsharma/2020/03/12/superta...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:44PM (#22926329)
What are you going to do with the oil after one month?

No one needs oil right now so if you take physical delivery it’s going to be sitting there for longer than a month.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by greenshackle2 on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:54PM (#22926459)
> selling the June contract at the same time

They would not be the one holding that particular bag.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by tempsy on Monday April 20, 2020 @01:58PM (#22926497)
if only arbitrage was that easy...
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by agseward on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:12PM (#22926639)
That's literally what futures contracts are for.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by greenshackle2 on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:11PM (#22929294)
In a discussion about negative future prices no less. If buyers could refuse physical delivery, that's what they would be doing now, not selling at negative prices.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by greenshackle2 on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:22PM (#22926736)
You still have to store the oil for a month. Which is expensive right now. Which is precisely why the May future is so cheap in the first place. I'm just rebutting that you will be stuck with the oil after June. Since they specifically said, they would sell a June contract immediately.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by option_greek on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:55PM (#22927078)
It just implies that any profit made by arbitraging June contract with May by taking physical delivery doesn't cover the storage costs (which is hard to believe at $22 difference but that's what market seems to indicate).
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by refurb on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:27PM (#22926781)
Just a guess, but maybe the consensus is that June is going to be the same (or worse) as May and they are going to have trouble unloading those contracts?

It may come to the point that you're paying some to take the contract.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by greenshackle2 on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:02PM (#22927152)
You're selling the June contract right now. There will be nothing to unload. Whoever is holding your June contract when it expires will be the one left holding the bag (well, the barrels). That's the whole point of futures.

The problem is that you have to store the oil for a month which is pretty expensive right now.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by lalaithion on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:35PM (#22926856)
But then the price in June should also be down.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by smileysteve on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:12PM (#22927983)
It is down, it's just not down to $0.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by macawfish on Monday April 20, 2020 @04:19PM (#22928058)
Not yet it's not
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by OJFord on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:56PM (#22927086)
Because storage is not free, and if that were such obvious profit, why would the guy writing you a May contract not do that themself, and write June instead?
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by cascom on Monday April 20, 2020 @02:28PM (#22926790)
By definition all open futures contracts have to either a) be Physically delivered Or b) be closed (remember that for futures contracts there is someone on each side (prepared to deliver 1,000 bbl and prepared to receive 1,000 bbl)

Now if you are a financial participant you need to close out your position as you are not in a position to either deliver/receive physical oil - so you need to essentially pay whatever it takes to close out the contract. In normal times there is plenty of storage and physical participants that are willing to provide liquidity as the contracts come to maturity. Now imagine you are a physical participant, and now space is limited/storage is expensive/ natural buyers aren’t buying (refiners) - you are not going to pay much to buy the oil of a financial participant who needs to sell the May contract to roll into June/July...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by ping_pong on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:23PM (#22927394)
This isn't true for all contracts. For example, gold contracts are/can be settled for cash. I remember during the Great Recession talks about gold conspiracies and that gold futures contracts can be forced settled in cash instead of physical delivery. I'm not sure if that's true or if that's part of the futures contract, though.
Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by cascom on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:45PM (#22927660)
The context here is oil - the benchmark contract and the one referenced in the article is the NYMEX CL (WTI/Cushing) it’s a deliverable contract.

https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/crude-oil/light-swee...

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by MR4D on Monday April 20, 2020 @06:16PM (#22929356)
> Did the longs think they had a place to put the oil on Friday but found out over the weekend they had no place to put it?

No, the Friday longs had a place to put it. But given it's late in the month, the people buying on Friday were probably finishing up their orders for the prompt month. Today, by comparison, there were no buyers, only sellers. Hence the drastic change in price. If there had been more buyers, the price would have been significantly higher (this is why next month's contract price is so much higher (in the $20's).

> Just seems like you would know what to do with the oil on Friday.

To be clear, they did. The people who had oil for sale and were holding out for a higher selling price who did not sell what they needed to sell last Friday are eating their shirts today. Their "greed" (relative, not necessarily Gordon Gecko style greed) caused them to lose a lot of money. Somebody will be firing oil traders this week. Not sure if that will make headlines. But somebody's book definitely blew up because they tried to get a higher price last week and ran into today's sale. Could be a hedge fund, could be an oil producer. But definitely look for this news soon.

Re:Oil plunges below zero for first time with May contract e... by clairity on Monday April 20, 2020 @03:00PM (#22927141)
> "What I don't understand is why the sudden move today?"

time is information, so closing out an option (like a short or a futures contract) prematurely tends to eat value on average.

however, in this case, the new information was so material and overwhelmingly bad, that you're probably correct that most should have closed out early and taken a smaller loss.