News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by pkilgore on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:08AM (#21722385)
So if the cannon is created using the great firewall, how does the Chinese government establish any sort of plausible argument that this isn't state-sponsored activity?

Do they just not care?

Some day soon a war will not be started with an assassins bullet but with a tool like this. I wonder when we start looking at them the same way?

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by Spooky23 on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:58AM (#21723639)
They don't need to hide anything. This type of activity is playing off of the success of the North Koreans and Russians in neutralizing US power in the face of a completely inept and corrupt government.

The audience is other Asian and African states. The message is "we can act with impunity". The US will probably do some tit-for-tat exchange, but the US scope to do anything is limited due to the potential for impact on US businesses.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by emmelaich on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:04AM (#21722978)
Pretty sure they don't care.

They're also directing lasers at helicopter pilots, which is much closer to a actual war than mere bits.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-06/chinese-fishing-vesse...

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by throw5543265 on Saturday December 07, 2019 @12:23PM (#21731396)
The protesters in Hong Kong were also directing lasers at police and police helicopters. I don’t think that should be considered an “act of war.”
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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by seganddr on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:50AM (#21723552)
Says a brand new account....
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by blackearl on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:30AM (#21722600)
According to the article, the attacks are currently ineffective for a number of reasons, one being their js code is bugged. Imagine Gavrillo Princip's gun was prone to jamming consistently.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by f38zf5vdt on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:57AM (#21722896)
This... actually inspires very little confidence. The assassination of the archduke involved several assassins who each failed iteratively for ridiculous reasons on the motorcade route. Princip himself had decided to give up on the assassination, only to find out the cafe he had gone to ended up being directly on the motorcade path. The serendipity of his proximity was probably the only reason Ferdinand ended up dead that day.

The cannon doesn't have to work all the time, just once effectively, and possibly even accidentally.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by blackearl on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:32AM (#21723321)
The Merck attack seemed to be an accidental offshoot, and nothing on an international political scale happened from that. Until we have some more tech literate politicians, or an agency to explain what's happening in simpler terms, I don't see these kind of attacks being taken seriously, or even understood on a basic level.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by arminiusreturns on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:24PM (#21724585)
In reality it was the setup of the triple entente by Edward VII that was most responsible for the WWs. The archduke may have been the match, but the triple entente was the detcord strung around Europe.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wongarsu on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:00AM (#21722924)
Well, Gavrillo and his co-conspiritors planned to kill Archduke Ferdinand with a thrown bomb, which the Archduke defected with his arm. The bomb exploded without doing much harm, and only later by pure chance the Archduke drove by Gavillo and was shot. It's a miracle that the assasination worked at all, the story is full of incompetence from the assassins. As such the parallel to the Great Cannon fits perfectly.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by ben_w on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:58AM (#21722907)
Given Gavrillo Princip's gun was only involved because the grenade missed and then everyone concerned made a series of unfortunate decisions that allowed a second attempt, that example isn’t bringing me any hope.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by booleandilemma on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:39AM (#21723418)
I’m wondering if there are actual bugs in their code or if AT&T is just saying that to make them spend time looking for something that isn’t there.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by edoceo on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:21PM (#21723903)
That's almost too clever for AT&T
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by SlowRobotAhead on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:53AM (#21722853)
Wait, didn’t that happen though? I thought the arch duke was originally supposed to be killed in a failed bombing, and the handgun was a second and happenstance scenario.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by marcusverus on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:17AM (#21723124)
There was a royal procession to City Hall in Sarajevo, during which a grenade was thrown at the Archduke. It (barely) missed, they drove off, and had a meeting with some local magistrate.

After the meeting, Franz wanted to travel to the hospital to visit the civilians who'd been wounded by the errant grenade. En route, his driver, confused, took the same route from the morning procession. When they realized what was happening, they told him to turn around and get the out if there. When the driver stopped to turn around, they were ~1 block from the site of the first assassination attempt. One if the co-conspirators (who had lost his nerve the first time, and had been milling around and hoping that Franz would come back by), was standing where the car came to a stop. Two shots killed Fran's Ferdinand and his wife.

Fun fact about this--Franz Ferdinand's death was not the cause of the Great War in the way that people tend to think it was. The assassination caused the war in the sense that it was a convenient excuse for a war that the Austro-Hungarians already wanted, but not because (Austro-Hungarian Emperor) Franz Joseph wanted revenge or anything like that. In fact, Franz Joseph's secretary later said that he "almost seemed grateful" that Ferdinand (whose marriage was so problematic that he had been forced to proactively abdicate on behalf of his children) was out of the way.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by filoleg on Friday December 06, 2019 @03:43PM (#21725791)
My middle school history teacher always stressed the point about reasons vs. triggers for events, and it has stuck to me since then, as it makes looking at things like this much easier. Basically, there is a giant list of political reasons for the Great War, I am not gonna list all of them here, but I fully agree with you that the assassination was not one of them. Franz Ferdinand's assassination was the trigger.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by SlowRobotAhead on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:11PM (#21724997)
Thought so, that (in much less detail) was my recollection. Thanks for that.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by MR4D on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:20AM (#21723166)
War seems to progress as follows:

0 - Peace 1 - Trade War 2 - Financial War 3 - Electronic War 4 - Shooting War

Note that 1 & 2 are different types of Economic war, and could be grouped together. The steps occur in order, but steps can be skipped.

From a US-centric point of view, North Korea and Iran seem to be at #3. China & Russia are at a limited version of #2.

Chinese/HK seem to be at #3 with each other.Given how invisible Electronic War can be, it's possible that they are deep in #3. It's also possible that #4 might be initially fought with HK Police forces as a proxy. Think of that as "4a".

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by chewbacha on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:28AM (#21723269)
I don't know who to attribute this to but I've heard a saying:

"Countries that trade with each other don't make war with each other."

As we isolate countries and disrupt trade we definitely are increasing the risk of conflict.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by rurp on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:29PM (#21723986)
> "Countries that trade with each other don't make war with each other."

I'm pretty sure this was the prevailing thinking prior to World War 1. A large scale conflict would be so damaging on a human and economic level that most assumed the people in power would find away to stop a massive war from breaking out. Well, they were right about the first assumption, but very wrong about the second.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wongarsu on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:45PM (#21724167)
It's also why the EU was founded, and in that instance it worked great. European powers used to be constantly at war with each other, but in the last 70 years there was no large-scale war within Europe (except for Ukraine/Russia, both not in the EU), and war between EU states has become unthinkable.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wutbrodo on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:10PM (#21724441)
This is surely a contributing factor, but being first-class citizens of Pax Americana US hegemony has been a larger one IMO (doubly so during the Cold War, when a common enemy on Western Europe's borders united them).

There's plenty of good things from a moral perspective about power being diffused away from a hyperpower hegemon, but stability and peace have never been among the side effects.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by smacktoward on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:43PM (#21724140)
Yes, most famously put forward in Norman Angell's 1909 book The Great Illusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Illusion).
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by _red on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:46AM (#21723493)
Yes, who cares about the forced labor camps and suicide nets around factories. I want my cheap plastic consumer devices!!
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by oblio on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:14PM (#21723803)
> Yes, who cares about the forced labor camps and suicide nets around factories.

Nobody really cares, except for those directly involved. Sad but true, nobody will ever go to war for that, for foreign citizens.

> I want my cheap plastic consumer devices!!

People do actually want that. And their cheap shoes and clothes and...

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wutbrodo on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:24PM (#21724586)
> suicide nets around factories

Foxconn's suicide rate is lower than China's, along with all 50 US states. They just employ a gargantuan amount of people (400k). I don't know much about the working conditions there, so I don't have a position, but it doesn't look like there's evidence to suggest that the working conditions have anything to do with the fact that some of their employees committed suicide.

To put it another way, there's roughly as much evidence of this as there is that working in a factory in Nigeria causes sickle cell anemia.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by DanBC on Friday December 06, 2019 @03:43PM (#21725790)
A car park in the UK closed off the top storey and it's common to see older MSCPs adding tall fences to the top floor, and for new buildings to have these designed in from the start.

Page 25 (but see also page 23) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Fencing off tall buildings is a useful short-term suicide prevention measure.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by throw5543265 on Saturday December 07, 2019 @12:25PM (#21731404)
If people cared, there wouldn’t be a prison labor system in the US. Especially one that pays inmates in cents.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by gpm on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:34AM (#21723346)
You are interpreting a correlation as a causality. More likely (IMO) is a common cause, countries that consider themselves enemies for whatever reason are both unlikely to trade with eachother, and likely to go to war with eachother.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by skrebbel on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:45AM (#21723482)
The EU was founded with the explicit goal that increasing trade between European countries would prevent war.

It's impossible to prove causality, but Europe has never seen longer and more widespread peace than the last 70 years.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by earthboundkid on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:03PM (#21723691)
Europeans tend to credit the EU/EEC for the peace, but as an American, I find that totally implausible. The peace was because Europe was divided into two vassal regions and the actual superpowers decided not to go to war because of MAD. Now that the Cold War is over, we've already had a series of wars in the Balkans and various wars in the Russian periphery. True, France and Germany have taken a break from fighting each other for a long-ish stretch, but I think that trend would continue even with a Frexit because it's mostly built on memories of how bad the last two wars were.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by skrebbel on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:18PM (#21723855)
MAD and the cold war prevented war between countries on either side of the iron curtain, sure.

But then you go on to claim that war among countries on the Western side was prevented by memories of war and not the EEC, without any reasoning as to why. I don't buy it. The first World War was already terrible, yet these countries were at each others' throats only a few decades later.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wongarsu on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:56PM (#21724305)
Russia and Ukraine are not EU/ECC members, and neither were the balkan states back when they balkanized. Wars outside the EU don't disprove that the EU plays a major role in bringing pace among its members. I would agree that it didn't necessarily bring peace to all of Europe, but that's a stronger statement than most people intend to make
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by 0ld on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:00PM (#21723666)
only if you think that europe is eu, which it is not
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dmix on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:37AM (#21723388)
China not wanting to mess with the amazing economic success is one of the strongest things pushing back against any military aggression by them.

Tons of CPP members are getting rich off the economy which includes a lot of trade and foreign debt.

There’s plenty of correlation here.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by webXL on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:31PM (#21725184)
"When goods don’t cross borders, Soldiers will." -unknown (often credited to Frederic Bastiat)

Here's what Otto Mallery said though:

"If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries, goods must do so. Unless the Shackles can be dropped from trade, bombs will be dropped from the sky."

https://fee.org/resources/if-goods-dont-cross-borders/

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by throwaway2048 on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:10PM (#21723761)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/955570...

This was a common argument as to why WWI couldn't happen, countries were far too economically dependent, everyone would be ruined.

Except it did happen, and everyone was ruined.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by webXL on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:49PM (#21725322)
There were more guns and power mongers than economic ties. Plain and simple. Those arguments should have been qualified a lot more.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dredmorbius on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:44AM (#21723479)
At best, that has held in limited places and times since WWII.

At worst, it was an affirmation repeated, as with most affirmations, in the hopes that the repetition would make it true, which it doesn't, and for the usual reason, that it generally wasn't.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by kortilla on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:16PM (#21723838)
So presumably you have evidence of most countries trading with each other while going to war with each other?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dredmorbius on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:46PM (#21728530)
The United States and Germany during WWII, as evidenced by Ford, General Motors, IBM, Coca-Cola, Kodak, Chase Bank, Random House, Associated Press, Dow Chemical, Brown Brothers Harriman, Woolworths, Alcoa, AT&T, and others.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers...

https://www.phactual.com/8-american-companies-that-worked-wi...

https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-american-companies-that-aided...

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by st1ck on Saturday December 07, 2019 @07:50AM (#21730006)
Doesn't seem to work between Russia and Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by masswerk on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:38PM (#21724712)
I think, the principal argument is by Immanuel Kant in "Zum ewigen Frieden" (Perpetual Peace), 1795.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dustinmr on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:55PM (#21724859)
Sometimes known as the “Golden Arches Theory of Diplomacy”
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dnautics on Friday December 06, 2019 @03:09PM (#21725495)
> 0 - Peace 1 - Trade War 2 - Financial War 3 - Electronic War 4 - Shooting War

How many major wars in the last 100 years were preceded by trade wars or electronic wars (I don't know what a financial war is, trade embargoes? - embargoes are not trade wars)? Perhaps my view is a bit us-centric (there have been many small wars in africa that I don't know the history of), but I don't think that us conflict participation in Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Grenada, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, or WWI were preceded by those sorts of policies. To find a trade war that preceded a war I think you might have to go to the US fighting in central america (banana wars), or maybe the civil war.

Meanwhile the US has engaged in trade wars with plenty of countries it hasn't fought with, dominantly europe (via the banana trade wars, not to be confused with banana wars, e.g.), and Japan.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by nickbauman on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:08PM (#21723746)
John Perkins has written extensively on this topic, as he has had a career conducting 2 and 3 for the US. His book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is instructive.

https://www.amazon.com/New-Confessions-Economic-Hit-Man/dp/1...

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by goodluckchuck on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:50AM (#21723548)
Hobbes would say this is backwards, since the state of nature is a state of war.

"Peace" is built from war's stalemates. As the most violent (and therefore effective) means become ineffective, combatants shift towards less effective means, to the point that the war (which is still ongoing) continues through diplomacy and trade.

Hence, "war is diplomacy by other means."

Diplomacy and trade are means of gaining an advantage in the underlying (now "cold") warfare. They're maneuvers to defeat the existing stalemate. If either side is able to obtain an economic (or other advantage) sufficient to defeat their opponent in a more violent form of warfare, then they will return to violence because that is the basal state of nature.

The worst thing you could ever have in trade / diplomacy is a good working relationship that isn't balanced and equal. A trade failure is itself a stalemate which can strengthen peace, so long as it occurs before too great of an advantage is gained any group.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by booleandilemma on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:38AM (#21723395)
Can you cite examples of when it went from 3 to 4?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by tandr on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:51AM (#21723566)
(not grandposter)

As the grandparent said - steps can be skipped. Since 3 is a relatively new medium for offensive actions, I suspect there are not a lot of well-known examples around. Would be interesting to see if any currently active conflicts were preceded by DoS (not necessarily Distributed, could be just a "cable cut" from outside), and how long before it escalated to active conflict.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by tcbawo on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:27AM (#21723261)
Perhaps 3 could be rephrased as "industrial sabotage"
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by EGreg on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:21AM (#21723179)
Pretty sure that this is only recent at most
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by jackcodes on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:22AM (#21723193)
Except for the great electronic war of 1315
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by kitteh on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:41PM (#21728110)
What's wild is how at times the GFW will be abused to profit the operators of the GFW itself. Redirecting people to sites owned by friends to drive traffic/sales, etc. Due to the nature of the GFW, there isn't a lot of auditing or transparency there. Only the Chinese carriers can generally engage them and it usually involves a visit to a specific building in Beijing (no foreigners allowed).
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by NedIsakoff on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:14AM (#21722438)
The question is, you know I'm using it. Besides some words, what the heck are you going to do?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by fred_is_fred on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:23AM (#21722531)
Why should they care, what's anyone going to do about it?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by criddell on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:38AM (#21722692)
For one, we should all be making sure our websites use https all the time. If all you have is a personal website serving up mostly static content then it might not seem like you need to bother with a certificate but things like the Great Cannon are a great argument that you do. It's not unlike a public health argument for why everybody should be vaccinated.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by marcosdumay on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:17AM (#21723127)
HTTPS will help your users not getting infected by code that a 3rd party injected on your site. But it will probably not help against the cannon, because the Chinese probably have some china controlled certificate installed.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by gruez on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:35AM (#21723358)
>But it will probably not help against the cannon, because the Chinese probably have some china controlled certificate installed.

The whole point of the cannon is that you can leverage the bandwidth of other countries. The CCP already controls the telecoms in China. They don't need to hijack Chinese computers for DDoS attacks when they can directly DDoS from their ISP's backbone.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by kick on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:27AM (#21723260)
They've done it before, with GitHub:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5124784

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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by cobookman on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:40AM (#21722721)
People care, however policy changes don’t happen overnight.

https://forward.com/opinion/424071/jews-are-speaking-out-aga...

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dageshi on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:58AM (#21722905)
It's not that nobody cares, it's that nobody can do anything about it.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by mdorazio on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:18AM (#21723144)
Of course they could do something about it, they just don't want to because it would be economically painful. Unified trade sanctions against China would likely have effects pretty quickly, but would impact economies significantly more than the Trump-imposed tariffs that everyone is already freaking out over.
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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by tempestn on Friday December 06, 2019 @06:02PM (#21726898)
I don't think that last line is helpful. If you believe that the Chinese government is akin to the Nazi party, better to make the argument explicitly than to use a term like "Chinazis", which could be interpreted as overly broad and highly insulting in the best case.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by safog on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:57AM (#21722900)
The real question is if anyone would've even cared about the atrocities of Nazi Germany if it wasn't in their national interest to go to war.

The reason England and France got into the war is because of Germany's expansionist policies and not because of moral reasons at the time.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wongarsu on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:14AM (#21723088)
This. The Final Solution and the extermination camps only happened in 1942, after every major player already entered the war. Eugenics was reasonably popular at the time, so that wasn't a reason to go to war either, and while the concentration camps were immoral and at the start of the war they were comparatively humane and not much out of line with what was deemed acceptable at the time (US internment of Japanese, Russian labor camps and the current ICE camps come to mind). The conditions drastically worsened as the camps filled up, but by that time Europe was already at war.

What Hitler did was terrible, but that's not the reason we had a war. "Germany (or Japan) might invade us next" is what was really in everyone's mind.

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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by BurningFrog on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:54AM (#21722859)
Hitler didn't start exterminating jews until after Pearl Harbor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Final_Solution

That's 2+ years after the start of WW2.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by Rebelgecko on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:33AM (#21723333)
Kristallnacht was in 1938
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by cobookman on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:04AM (#21722977)
The "Final Solution" wasn't started at first.

As WW2 progressed the Nazis attempted to ship the jews elsewhere. Sadly countries refused to accept these refugees.

Nazis then started to pile up Jews into Ghettos. Note that these Ghettos are almost identical to the Uyghur's current situation.

As the Ghettos started to fill up, the Nazis needed a plan on what to do as the ghettos started to reach capacity. Their decision is known as the "Final Solution" or death camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Évian_Conference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_ghettos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by jersey on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:41AM (#21722728)
Hitler didn't start murdering jews in mass until after he invaded countries.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by lazyguy2 on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:01AM (#21722941)
Although the Soviets certainly were mass murderers before WW2 and British and USA still sided with them.

Hitler was elected under the pretense that he represented socialism that was friendlier to the middle class and workers. This way people could get their socialist improvements to the economy (which was shit due to bad world-wide economy and war reparations) while still having defense against the the sort of upheaval and murderous destruction that the Reds represented.

The take-home lesson of WW2 shouldn't be that 'The other side was evil and we won'. Because the entire Eastern half of Europe and most of Asia was submitted to governments that were incredibly evil due to the Soviet victory.

WW2's lessons are meaningless without WW1. They really are effectively the same war. The treaty of Versailles and the humiliation of the German civilian government are directly responsible for the rise of power of the Fascism in Germany.

The take-home lesson of the 20th century wars is that massive murder and atrocities are only possible because people obey their governments. That 'The people' cannot discern true evil running the state until it's far too late.

Because evil doesn't show up saying "Elect me because I want to gas the Jews". They gain power by promising what you want. By telling you what you want to hear. And once they gain power then it is the average person's willingness to obey authority and carry out orders is what turns shoe makers, engineers, and doctors into mass murderers.

Which is the sort of thing that is happening in many parts of China.

Always remember that in Vichy France when they rounded up the Jews for the holocaust it wasn't the Germans troops that went around arresting them. It was the French police that rounded up people to be put on those trains. It was under the order's of the French politicians. This problem of obeying governments is not something that is limited by national borders.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by stallmanite on Friday December 06, 2019 @03:04PM (#21725446)
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by jersey on Friday December 06, 2019 @04:33PM (#21726189)
en masse

adverb

_in a mass_; all together; as a group:

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by zanny on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:47AM (#21722793)
But wait, we'd get millions sending their hopes and prayers and everyone in power coming on broadcast news TV to talk about how awful the Chinese genocide is.

I can tell because that's how it already went down with the Tibetans and Uhgyrs. Because the CCP has already committed a multiple of genocides including their planned mass famines in 1960 that killed tens of millions of their own citizens.

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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by BlueTemplar on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:20AM (#21723167)
The downvotes might be from the fact that the Nazi concentration camps only turned into extermination camps in the very last years of their rule, so the danger of extermination camps might be at least partially inherent in the concentration camps?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by LessDmesg on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:14AM (#21723079)
So what if China isn't running death camps per se? The problem is that it's running something of the magnitude of Nazi Germany and getting away with it. No sane government would go 100% Nazi overnight, but if they see that being 50% Nazi is OK, then they might raise it to 75% etc. It's a game like all authoritarian politics. They're probing ground, and many other authoritarians around the world are looking at the result. This is why it's important that China gets called out for its atrocities, and called out hard.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by slg on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:39AM (#21723420)
That is quite a big "per se" there. My point is there is a huge distinction between concentration camps and death camps. The Nazis progressed from one to the other, but that is not a guarantee (this is where that US reference might come into play). There is a large difference between "let's segregate these people" to "let's kill all of them" and we shouldn't blur the lines between either the Nazi's decision to make that leap or China's decision to as of yet not.

I wouldn't have felt the need to make my comment if the original comment was modified with "early Holocaust" rather equating it to the entire thing which inherently includes and is often more synonymous with the death camps.

Also what China is doing is not in the magnitude of the Nazis.

I am not saying any of this to defend China. I just want these things clear because this is the type of rhetoric that is often used by Holocaust deniers.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by akiselev on Friday December 06, 2019 @05:11PM (#21726502)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but these aren't segregation centers. There's a big difference between "let's segregate these people" and "let's re-educate these people." China seems to be well into the re-education process and while they may not have trains headed to death camps, I think it's more accurate to say that they are closer to those death camps than they are to Jim Crowe laws, having already surpassed cases like re-education boarding schools [1] which AFAIK are considered genocide by international law.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schoo...

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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:53AM (#21722852)
Some food for thought: In Tibet, people regularly self-immolate themselves to show to the world how desperate the situation of Tibetan is. Imagine in what circumstances you would need to live to see people around you self-immolate. It's not just one person, and just a dozen.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by cc81 on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:00AM (#21722928)
I'm not defending China at all, they have tons of shitty policies. I'm just saying it is nothing like the holocaust and it is pretty absurd when people do those kind of comparisons. It reminds me of just before the Iraq invasion when the propaganda was at it's highest (Freedom fries and Dixie Chicks).

If I again compare with the US as an example even if people don't like that. You have had many hundred if not thousands of suicide bombers that have stated that they sacrifice their life to strike against targets because of US imperialistic ways. Imagine the circumstances that lead to that.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by kls on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:15AM (#21723101)
The problem is you have two types of people, you have the guy that sees his kid get blown up and is like F'it I am going to detonate myself. I get it, I could be that guy under the right circumstances. The problem is the world is just as full of people ready and willing to exploit that guy and that is what happens. The situation is a lot more complicated than the American imperialist kills babies meme. The problem is though when you go after the other guys, who need going after, some good people get killed and it creates a newly exploitable class based on that anger and resentment.

The guy who just wants to be left alone is constantly pushed into a corner by the guy that wants to control and manipulate people and those are the two types of people in the world. The American revolution was filled with guys that just wanted to be left alone. Congress is now filled with guys that want to control and manipulate. They are naturally attracted to power. It will take them pushing the US citizen who wants to be left alone (AKA the silent majority) into the corner before anything changes.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by cc81 on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:10PM (#21724442)
The thing is when you write:

>The problem is you have two types of people, you have the guy that sees his kid get blown up and is like F'it I am going to detonate myself. I get it, I could be that guy under the right circumstances. The problem is the world is just as full of people ready and willing to exploit that guy and that is what happens. The situation is a lot more complicated than the American imperialist kills babies meme. The problem is though when you go after the other guys, who need going after, some good people get killed and it creates a newly exploitable class based on that anger and resentment.

That is also the exact motivation that China uses for its re-education camps. It is because of terrorism that they need to go after.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wnoise on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:50PM (#21724232)
> I'm just saying it is nothing like the holocaust and it is pretty absurd when people do those kind of comparisons.

It's clearly not exactly the same as the Holocaust. But it's disingenuous to say it's nothing like the Holocaust either, because there are a lot of similarities.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by cc81 on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:09PM (#21724429)
Do you think they are more similar to the Holocaust than the US internment camps?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wnoise on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:14PM (#21728432)
I think they're closer to Nazi internment camps (which rather quickly transitioned to death camps) than the various US internment camps, yes.

Are they death camps yet? Well, perhaps not. But there are none the less a hell of lot dehumanization. There are reports of forced abortions, rapes, medical experiments, and other tortures.

To be clear, the US internment of the Japanese is a horrendous stain, but it clearly is far less evil than these camps.

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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by arkades on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:23AM (#21723201)
If you can’t distinguish between the Vietnamese War and the Axis Concentration Camps on a scale of atrocity, I’m doubtful there’s any intellectual exercise that’s going to clarify that for you.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by jessaustin on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:13PM (#21723797)
Absolutely, there's no intellectual process to get there. [0] Rather it requires a lifelong immersion in "news" media committed to minimizing USA war crimes, coupled with an aggressively jingoistic ignorance of history.

[0] that is, one brutally murdered innocent child of innocent parents is not really different than some other brutally murdered innocent child of innocent parents.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by theresAppleBias on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:11PM (#21723772)
I'm not comparing the Vietnam war to the Holocaust.

I'm comparing our oil grab under various guises, vs Chinas attempts at unification.

When both are causing murder, why is oil better than submission?

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by wbronitsky on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:06PM (#21724951)
Calling the interning of over 1 million people an attempt at unification is blatant astroturfing and is wildly and viciously wrong.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by arkades on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:54PM (#21724286)
I believe OPs reference to the Uighurs was to their placement in concentration camps. Calling that an “attempt at unification” is generous at best.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by LandR on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:21AM (#21723175)
I didn't see this as a problem solved by war, honestly.

We need to weane ourself off a dependency on China for cheap goods. We need to decide that we value human life over a cheap phone.

China gets away with what it does because it feeds our need for shiney new trinkets. Frankly, it's disgusting. The world could stand up to China and say it doesn't want it as a trading partner. Maybe that wouldn't even help, but do we really want to be doing trade with a country that operates like China does?

Where are our values?

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by dTal on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:39AM (#21723410)
With all due respect - from a systems perspective, that's not a solution; it's a wish for a pony, no less so than complaining "where are China's values"? Solutions are required because people are selfish and shortsighted - merely pointing this out accomplishes little.

It's like saying that police aren't a solution to murder - what we really need is to stop killing each other.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by jessaustin on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:28PM (#21723977)
The current president isn't wishing for a pony. He has aggressively, unilaterally changed USA trade policy with respect to China. One might suspect his goals in this exercise. Still, if he can do this in pursuit of his idea of "fairness", then some other president, perhaps with the cooperation of Congress, could have done similar with the idea of penalizing some of the more odious behavior of the Chinese state.

That hypothetical president who cared about e.g. Tibet or the Uighurs couldn't have expected any popular intellectual support for that effort, however, since our popular intellectuals act largely to feather their own nests with Panglossian tributes to how wonderful TPP could have been.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by saagarjha on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:14PM (#21723806)
It might not be. Does that mean we can't decry both?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by thetopher on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:39PM (#21724096)
All kinds of bad things are happening in the world. This thread is discussing a bad thing being done by the Chinese government. That doesn't suggest that other bad things are any better or worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by faitswulff on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:23AM (#21722534)
Don't forget that the power behind the CCP's lies and violence is economic clout, both abroad and domestically.
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by eznoonze on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:27AM (#21722574)
Yes, absolutely. The economic clout gives them the confidence and means. That needs to be dealt with. Declaw!
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by cc81 on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:45AM (#21722765)
Like how the world dealt with the US after Snowden's reveals?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by erikpukinskis on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:31AM (#21723307)
I’m a U.S. citizen and I’m “dealing with the US” in my own way. But such a thing takes time. You don’t upset and entire economic regime in a year or even a decade. It takes the utmost patience, to the point of organizing for outcomes you may not even see in your lifetime.

One shouldn’t mistake a seeming return to the status quo as proof that the status quo is just as strong.

Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by oblio on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:20PM (#21723878)
How do you "deal" with another country developing economically?
Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by kradroy on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:37AM (#21722681)
Bullets have been obsolete for decades. Wars are currently fought by selling shitty financial instruments en masse to your opponents while you sit and watch them implode from afar.
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Re:The Great Cannon has been deployed again by chillacy on Friday December 06, 2019 @11:58AM (#21723642)
WW1 turned out to be far more deadly because the participants were stuck thinking of war in terms of old conflicts while technology advanced. I don’t see ground invasions working the same way against adversaries with nukes.