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Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:30PM (#21668519)
I still don't know why long-division works. I don't think I even remember how to do it as an adult.

I've always had a very intuitive grasp of math, which meant I excelled at solving things in my head but struggled with (and resented) having to show my work in the arbitrary algorithms we were taught. I understand division despite my education.

They really should try to come up with algorithms that are more intuitively linked to a spatial comprehension of the numbers. That underlying grasp is really all that sticks with you into the real world (and it's also what makes math engaging). If students aren't getting that, they're wasting their time in my opinion.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by geomark on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:43PM (#21668560)
I don't understand why long division would be a mystery. It's just repeated subtraction - you are finding how many times you can subtract the divisor from the dividend, in a systematic way.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pjscott on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:50PM (#21668587)
It's almost never explained with such lucidity. If you find a hundred people who can perform long division, I would be surprised if twenty of them have any idea how it works.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by ikeyany on Saturday November 30, 2019 @02:45AM (#21669023)
Multiplication tables are the most lucid way to explain long division. In order to get from 5 to 40, you need to keep adding 5s until you can't. So to divide 40 by 5, keep subtracting 5s until you can't any longer.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by stjohnswarts on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:25PM (#21671011)
Exactly, I find it far easier to explain LD as just fast subtraction combined with multiplication to my kid than common core methods which I had to stare at for a while. The most critical method here is how to break up components of a number into addition "parts" as well as decimal positions.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:01AM (#21668628)
You're never going to find 100 people who can perform long division.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pjscott on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:07AM (#21668650)
Sure you can! Just look at a typical fifth- or sixth-grade classroom. Most of them can perform long division, briefly, before the test. They may even remember it for several days after the test.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by mavhc on Saturday November 30, 2019 @04:56AM (#21669322)
What none of them can tell you is why they've been taught long division, when short division is faster.

And it's because you need long division to do division in algebra

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by abakker on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:19AM (#21669379)
What is short division? I only remember being taught long division and having a calculator. Is there another method?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by Tomte on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:15AM (#21669490)
Fascinating. I didn't know, either.

After looking at the English Wikipedia I found that

a) what I learned in school is long division

b) the notation with the dividend and the divisor separated by a parenthesis and the result on top of a horizontal bar is totally alien to me

c) I've never seen short division before

d) the German Wikipedia doesn't even have an article about short division

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jacobush on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:54AM (#21669585)
Thanks! What you said, except my own point d) that Swedish Wikipedia tells that apparently short division is also used in Swedish elementary schools now.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jeltz on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:50AM (#21669738)
I went to elementary school in the 90s and we were taught both long and short.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by beatgammit on Sunday December 01, 2019 @02:09PM (#21677203)
Interesting, I'll start using that short version now. I always hated the long version because it took up a ton of vertical space and I didn't need the extra verbosity. In fact, I'll probably teach me kid that method when he gets to division in school.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by shantly on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:24AM (#21670328)
Holy shit, I didn’t realize the shorter way of writing long division that I invented in early elementary school because I got sick of taking up so much space and introducing copying error potential had a name!
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marakv2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:47AM (#21669730)
From my quick google it's arriving at the answer, without the step by step process of calculating each division.

Edit: although if someone else can explain it better I'd really like to know.

From what I have searched,(quickly mind you), it seems to be a mind set.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by nwah1 on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:21AM (#21674810)
Probably is that New Math that Tom Lehrer warned us about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by darkerside on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:50AM (#21669737)
I've looked at both Wikipedia pages and still can't really understand the difference. Is it anything more than notational? Either way, you're calculating divisors for each component of the problem, and it only seems to matter whether you calculate it on paper or in your head.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by leetcrew on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:14AM (#21670280)
the way I learned it, it's just a notational difference. either way, you are dividing the divisor into each place of the dividend (starting with the most significant digit) and carrying over the divisor to the next place. short division is just a more implicit way of doing this that saves space. the shorthand version doesn't really work for divisors with more than one digit though.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by fractaled on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:13AM (#21670533)
What doesn't work with short division and multi-digit divisors?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by leetcrew on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:14PM (#21672449)
it's not that the algorithm "breaks"; it's just that it stops being a convenient notation for humans.

the "short" notation relies on the ability to squeeze the remainder in between the digits of the dividend. if you have a divisor greater than ten, it's possible to have a remainder with more than one digit. two or more remainder digits is a lot harder to write legibly between the digits of the dividend. you also end up subtracting larger numbers in your head, which is error prone. finally, most people only memorize the multiplication table up to 12x12 or so. once they can't simply do a lookup into their memorized table, they switch to more of a "guess and check" approach, where they will inevitably have to cross out or erase their previous work.

in the end, it introduces a lot of unnecessary opportunities to make mistakes and hides stuff that people can't do reliably in their heads.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by shantly on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:26AM (#21670338)
It’s notation only. I “invented” it as a kid to save space on division problems and reduce the chance of copying errors. It’s the same method as long division (and TIL it already existed!)
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by beatgammit on Sunday December 01, 2019 @02:12PM (#21677224)
It definitely looks nice, and I'll probably start using it. If something is too inconvenient to use short division for (e.g. large divisors), I'll probably just use a calculator.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jeltz on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:47AM (#21669729)
Yeah, when we were taught short and long division I had the same question and it was not until quite late in high school we got the explanation.

I went to school in Sweden where we do teach all this things, but in a strange order.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by hashmush on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:41AM (#21669908)
Went to school in Sweden too in the 90-00s. I wasn't taught long division until I had to divide polynomials in my last year of high school, and that course was an elective.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by mavhc on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:32PM (#21678250)
Apart from the long division method pointing out that division is just repeated subtraction, that's the only reason to use it.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by Mirioron on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:45AM (#21670166)
I think I've only briefly seen short division once. It was long division until fractions here.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marakv2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:46AM (#21669723)
Because knowing both helps realise how it works. Yes it's faster to use short division, but long helps you se the step by step process, giving a better understanding.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jpindar on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:37AM (#21670124)
OK millennial
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:50PM (#21668591)
Because the algorithm is so astronomically complicated that people can’t see any pattern or reason in it anymore and it becomes an opaque mystery.

I have a PhD in computer science but I cannot understand long division.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:03AM (#21668639)
>I have a PhD in computer science but I cannot understand long division

I think you're trolling us a little: you could sit down with pencil and paper and think about how it must work and 20 minutes later you'd understand it, surely.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:06AM (#21668646)
I have no intuitive understanding or mental model of the algorithm. I could follow the instructions if they’re written in front of me but I have never managed to understand why they work or to memorise them.

I have a similar mental block for standard deviation - I always seem to have another ‘but why?’ question that eventually people answer with ‘because!’ and then we’ve both given up.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by rocqua on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:23AM (#21669848)
Standard deviation is a form of variance that has the same units as the mean. Whereas the variance has square units.

This means the quantity of mean/variance depends on your choice of units, whereas the quantity of mean/standard deviation. Is constant no matter the units.

Why do we care about variance? Because it is a nice and linear property. This means it is easy to calculate and manipulate.

Moreover, the variance / standard deviation very nicely describe a Gaussian distribution (bell curve). This is a very important distribution because of the law of large numbers. Because we see bell curves so often, it is nice to have tools (std.dev) that work well with these curves.

It should be noted that, in optimization problems, there can be reasons to try and minimize something other than variance. We tend to pick the variance / std.dev because it is familiar, easy to work with, and very efficient. Notably, the derivative of variance tends to be linear, which makes it pretty efficient to use in gradient descent.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jampekka on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:13AM (#21670027)
This is the right answer but maybe not to the right question. For most applications the linearity of variance does not really matter (e.g. when taking descriptives of a sample), at least in the way they are used/taught. Not that many appliers of statistics do computations where the mathematical properties of variance have any significance, and even when it does (e.g. ANOVA), most appliers don't really understand where it comes from.

I think the OP's frustration in how computation of standard deviation as a quantity is just taught by rote in a cookbook manner is quite understandable. If one's not thought more in depth about distributions and estimation of their parameters, it really makes little sense.

Whether the statistics should be taught more in depth is another question. The current state of the mathematics of statistics and probability is such that it needs quite heavy tools to do rigorously. And countless of hours of getting to know the quirky inconsistent notation.

But until it is taught more rigorously, more intuitive measures of dispersion like MAD make a lot more sense for most applications. And I don't think it would be an unreasonable ask for the statisticians to lay out the "porcelain" for working with the more intuitive, if somewhat more analytically inconvenient measures. A bit like we don't require programmers to understand how transistors work.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:20AM (#21668693)
Try this?

https://web.stanford.edu/class/ee486/doc/chap5.pdf

Edit: standard deviation is just a fancy name for root mean squared over the sample offsets. The square is there to deal with the fact that there are positive and negative offsets. The mean is the whole point of the exercise, and the root is to negate the fact that we squared earlier.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:33AM (#21668737)
But why not use the abs function or operator rather than squaring and rooting?

This is how I always find maths and particularly statistics - I always just want to answer ‘but why’ and then people lose interest in explaining after a while.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by OscarCunningham on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:16AM (#21669494)
> But why not use the abs function or operator rather than squaring and rooting?

You can. It's called the mean absolute deviation. Which one you use depends on your application. If you just want to give a summary of how spread out the data is then either would work. Lots of people say that we should use the mean absolute deviation as the default rather than the standard deviation.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by TeMPOraL on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:33AM (#21669537)
And suddenly another small subarea of maths starts to make sense for me. Thank you, and thanks to everyone commenting in this subthread.

I too have a problem with math tools passed down without any surrounding context - without telling why are we using this formula, instead of any other variant from the family of formulas that would satisfy the same goals. I'd have much easier time dealing with statistics in school if someone told me that a) deviation with ABS instead of root-square is also a thing, and b) we use the root-square one because it amplifies offsets from the mean.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by zorked on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:15AM (#21670032)
By the way, statistics as its own discipline is taught rather differently from the "here is a toolkit of magic tables and formulas and how to use it" method used when teaching it to non-statisticians. The magical bits actually make sense.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Sunday December 01, 2019 @02:04PM (#21677179)
>I too have a problem with math tools passed down without any surrounding context

Also one of my peeves. However over the years I've come to realize that in addition to teachers who omit the context, there is also a class of student that actively doesn't want to hear the context. I'm not sure exactly why this is, but I see it in my immediate family quite a bit. A sort of <cover ears, lalalala...too much detail> kind of thing perhaps due to difficulty taking on too much information?

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by Isinlor on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:52PM (#21671184)
The mean absolute deviation should be always introduced to people before introducing standard deviation. When trying to figure out what the heck is the standard deviation I also stumbled upon the mean absolute deviation. Now, to me, the standard deviation is the mean absolute deviation. It's just a version that is more sensitive to outliers. Otherwise, I still don't feel like I intuitively (visually) understand the standard deviation.

I feel like the standard deviation is a black box to basically everyone without statistics degree. It also bothers me that it is so widespread, because almost nobody know how to interpret this value. It seems to me like most scientists treat the standard deviation as a magical number that allows to compare spread between datasets and otherwise doesn't mean anything on it's own. I feel like a lot more insight could be gained from the mean absolute deviation.

I'm also curious how are scientific insights affected by defaulting to something that is extra-sensitive to outliers. The effect can't be big per single research, but in collective?

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by cjfd on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:15AM (#21669493)
Okay, we have deviations from the mean. They are (0.1, 0.1, -0.1, -0.1). Or we have deviations from the mean (0.2, 0, 0, -0.2). I think is is pretty intuitive that in the second case the deviation is larger. In the first case there are only two differing values that are 0.2 apart. In the second case there are three differing values and some are 0.2 apart and others are 0.4 apart. Also, in the first case there are two pairs of equal value and in the second case there is only one pair that is of equal value. The squaring and rooting does this for you. Of course, other functions could do a similar thing for you. The squaring and rooting has nice mathematical properties especially if you consider the variance, i.e., omitting the square root. That is much more differentiable than an absolute value.

Also, consider that the correlation coefficient consists of similar formulas. They all look like the theorem of pythagoras. This ties in nicely with the fact that observables can be seen as having angles in between them where the correlation coefficient is the cosine of these angles.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:00AM (#21669597)
I still don’t understand why we pick a metric because it’s easy to work with. Isn’t it either the right metric or not?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by username90 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:27AM (#21669675)
The standard deviation is not arbitrary, it tells us what the final normal distribution would look like if you averaged a lot of independent distributions.

You can read up on the central limit theorem if you want to understand more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jampekka on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:34AM (#21670105)
Normal distribution can be parameterized with almost any measures of location and dispersion. The reason why standard deviation (which is just variance in hiding) is used is because it makes the equations (that non-statisticians practically never need to look at) a bit nicer given the other (mostly arbitrary) conventions used in the maths.

Put simply, standard deviation is arbitrary for most people.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:54AM (#21669754)
I don't want to keep going on because it sounds like I'm trolling, but when you tell me 'it tells us what the final normal distribution would look like if you averaged a lot of independent distributions' I just want to say 'why do I care about that? where did that requirement come from?'
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by username90 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:06AM (#21669790)
Economics of stocks is a good example, when you put a lot of stocks in one portfolio you can calculate its risk (standard deviation) and returns (average value), and see how much each piece of stock contributed to that. This is because the results of many variables looks like a normal distribution with the combined average and standard deviation. Now it gets a bit more complicated in the real world since stocks are not independent from each other, but it shouldn't be hard to understand why knowing the standard deviation of something is useful.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:15AM (#21669822)
> Now it gets a bit more complicated in the real world since stocks are not independent from each other

This is also where I get frustrated.

I'm taught about the CLT but every place I think I might use it, the samples aren't really IDD when you look hard enough, so it doesn't apply.

Computer benchmarking (which is where I'm usually trying to apply statistics) is the classic example. One iteration changes the state of the computer for the next iteration. They aren't remotely IDD, but people still try to claim the CLT. Seems like all their stats beyond that point is broken.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by username90 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:29AM (#21669873)
Right, that is how statistics usually is done. Note however that you don't need IDD, independence is enough. So you assume independence, from that CLT follows which means that standard deviation is all that matters. Then the real world deviates from this based on how much your distributions fails to be independent.

I'd assume that computer benchmarks have very low correlation between runs, unless you leak ram or your components don't keep a stable temperature. So in that case the CLT seems to apply just fine.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:40AM (#21669907)
I can't understand this. Surely either samples are independent, or they are not?

And they are not in a computer program. The state of, to just give one example, the processor cache depends on what happened in the previous run.

We have all this rigour in how statistical techniques are applied, and we make black or white decisions based on the numbers that come out of them, but at their very foundation we're saying 'whatever I'll just pretend this rule applies it's probably fine'. How can we build on that flawed foundation? I don't get it!

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by adwn on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:34AM (#21670106)
Statistical techniques are a model of reality: Reality is not rigorous, but when our models are rigorous, imprecision enters the computation at one place only. If our models aren't rigorous, imprecision occurs at more places, blurring the answer even more.

"All models are wrong, but some models are useful." Just remember that there's some imprecision in the answer a model gives you, and keep that fact in mind when applying that answer to make real-world decisions.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Sunday December 01, 2019 @02:06PM (#21677191)
I think it begins with binomial expansion and coin tossing.

e.g. https://socratic.org/questions/what-is-the-difference-betwee...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by BeetleB on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:54AM (#21670821)
> Isn’t it either the right metric or not?

There are many "right" metrics - this is one of them. The big picture is we want a measure/idea of how spread out the data is. One can come up with many ways to do this, and absolute value and root mean square are two of the most common. They correspond to L0 and L2 norms. There is also the L-infinity norm (just use the farthest point).

The L2 norm is the most complicated of the 3, but as people pointed out, it is one of the easiest to use analytically because of its nice mathematical properties.

Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_dispersion for other measures.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Sunday December 01, 2019 @02:09PM (#21677201)
>Isn’t it either the right metric or not?

To illustrate, perhaps an example closer to home:

If someone asked you to tell them "how many lines of code in this project?" you'd start wondering things like "do I count comments?", "do I count dependent libraries?", "perhaps some metric that is equivalent of a statement count but not strictly counting lines?" and on and on.

Statistical measures are like that. Someone with a decent knowledge of the problem space came up with the best stab at how to characterize the data.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by darkerside on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:54AM (#21669751)
I think you're right that there is an arbitrariness to this algorithm, and there are other ways of normalizing your data. And you could probably build entire new branches of statistics off of them (like non Euclidean geometry), and they'd probably even be better in some way. But, you'd be speaking a different language from everybody else.

Speaking of language, have you ever thought about how all names and grammatical structures are arbitrary as well? There are parallels.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by username90 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:57AM (#21669766)
No, standard deviation is special. If you have a large enough amount of independent distributions which gets averaged or added in some way, then the only thing which matters are their standard deviations and average values for what the final distribution looks like.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by darkerside on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:31AM (#21670363)
I'm well out of my wheelhouse, so anyone else chiming in would be appreciated. I'm not sure what you mean by "looks like", but I would imagine other "nonstandard" measures of deviation would also result in a consistent model.

My larger point is that, something can be arbitrary and still be meaningful. If people agree on a common meaning, it formalizes a communication protocol that allows for much better information sharing.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by username90 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:51AM (#21670433)
"Looks like" as in the difference approaches zero as the number of times approaches infinity.

This means that any distribution with standard deviation of X will behave as a normal distribution with standard deviation X when you have enough of them. Or in other words, any distribution with standard deviation of X will behave like any other distribution with standard deviation of X when you have enough of them. There is no other measure like this as there is no other equivalent to the central limit theorem. Therefore it makes sense to have this as a universal measure of random processes.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marcosdumay on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:19AM (#21670042)
The mathematical representations and operations people see at school were picked because they are easy to work on most common problems. There is not this "correct math" thing, you pick what works best.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by roenxi on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:56AM (#21669761)
Start with the Normal or Multivariate normal. We start with this because it is the distribution that emerges naturally when we have lots of little errors adding up around a basically consistent effect (see also [0]). So basically any situation where something ought to happen but 101 things could also happen to cause small changes will turn out to be normally distributed. An exceedingly common occurrence + one that almost inevitably turns up when dealing with a practical error prone process.

Now that we have a normal distribution, the mean is an obvious metric to pick because it captures the notion of 'middle' in a useful sense. Then we have proofs that we can characterise the normal with the mean and 1 other parameter (normal normal) or a matrix (multivariate normal). We call that the standard deviation^.

The exact formula wasn't a coincidence. The normal can obviously be characterised by the mean and a statistic from another formula. There were a bunch of experiments tried (eg, using |x| instead of sqrt[x^2]) but it turned out that sqrt[x^2] had some other nice property that minimised some sort of error so they went with it as a standard. I forget what one, might be error of estimating the true parameters from a sample or similar.

We could characterise the the normal as an infinite sum or something quirky, but when people say 'easy to work with' they mean instead of a function or something quirky we can simply pick a number.

Standard Deviation isn't as important when working with non-normal distributions, although I think it still turns out to be useful. But its importance is that it characterises a normal apart from the information captured in the mean. I'm not a mathematician, YMMV, could be wrong, standard disclaimers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

^ I'm not going to edit this but it occurs to me that we call it the Variance. Same thing as std. dev in my opinion.

' There is a fairly subtle observation to make - Normal is characterised by mean and std. dev, but the most efficient ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency_(statistics) ) unbiased estimator of the std. dev of the population is the adjusted std. dev of the sample. Therefore, accounting for mean, you can't get a more efficient characterisation of the normal than mean & std. dev. Ie, if you picked a formula other than std. dev then the most efficient estimators to characterise it would still be mean and std. dev. Don't recall if there are equally efficient choices but I think that proves there are none better.

That might have been the logic for why std. dev was chosen. Just a guess.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by acqq on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:36AM (#21669546)
> how I always find maths and particularly statistics - I always just want to answer ‘but why’ and then people lose interest in explaining after a while.

Unless you try to solve more problems yourself, you won't understand the advantages or disadvantages of some methods in solving the problems. So the real answer is: construct the examples, compute and compare, don't approach it "philosophically."

All the methods used today survived because they were the solutions to some problems. It doesn't mean that everybody applies them properly: for that you have to get some experience yourself.

Learning about the historical development of the methods is also for me satisfying experience: e.g. logarithms aren't a concept devised for philosophical purposes, Napier developed them to save astronomers time and limit "slippery errors" of (their) calculations:

https://www.thocp.net/reference/sciences/mathematics/logarit...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pnutjam on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:19AM (#21669651)
I think you just described the common core method. The main problem is teachers don't understand all the methods they are teaching and kids pick up on this. Then the parents don't understand all the methods and the few intellectually curios help their kids figure it out; but he vast majority of people just tell their kids it's stupid.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by acqq on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:43AM (#21669713)
I didn't address the topic of what and how children learn, I've given some ideas to the one who wrote:

"I have a PhD in computer science but I cannot understand long division"

For that, personal experience in devising the examples, evaluating them and comparing the results is the only way to get the understanding. One can't complain that one doesn't understand Greek texts if one personally never tried to learn the Greek letters. One could have learned "about" Greek but at the end one hasn't done the inevitably necessary preconditions to actually read Greek texts.

The error in thinking is believing that because one already learned about something else somewhere else he should somehow "understand" something without doing the necessary work on that something. The solution is "make your own homework" to fill the gaps.

The topic of what, how and why children learn in schools is much more complex.

Edit: Also, now reading the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_division I do understand why people don't understand it: the taught notation for the process, used in many countries, is utterly confusing to me, so my reason for confusion when looking at various notations is not that I don't understand the nature of the method but that I haven't spent time analyzing what was built on top of the basically simple idea -- I can also "understand" all the notations but I'd also need more time for that. Still, having enough experience, I can claim that I understand the idea and the process even if I never learn all the notations and conventions in different countries (which part of the process you write where, what you write and what you don't when etc). The idea is simple, the conventions enforced don't have to be. Those who only learned the conventions maybe never invested any time to figure out what's behind the conventions: what is actually being done.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by defen on Saturday November 30, 2019 @02:20AM (#21668971)
That exists too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_absolute_deviation

Standard deviation is mathematically easier to work with though and has nice properties e.g. you can compute the standard deviation of combining a bunch of independent things by combining their individual standard deviations.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marcosdumay on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:16AM (#21670036)
The abs has a problem in that it has no derivative at 0. I imagine that's why people go with squaring and rooting.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by smabie on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:53AM (#21669452)
Because the derivative at 0 of abs is undefined.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:00AM (#21669599)
Why do I care about that though?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by smabie on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:32AM (#21670098)
Taylor series, calculating maxima/minima, etc. also standard deviations compose in a very nice way. All throughout math, we use squared terms instead of absolute value all the time because it’s convenient.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by sicariusnoctis on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:31PM (#21672733)
1. Long division uses a similar idea to Euclid's algorithm for GCD. Are you familiar with that? Regardless, both algorithms are divide and conquer algorithms.

6240 / 5

= divide(6240, 5)

= divide(1240, 5) + 1000

= divide(240, 5) + 1000 + 200

= divide(40, 5) + 1000 + 200 + 40

= 1000 + 200 + 40 + 8

= 1248

----------

2. Regarding standard deviation, one of these bullets might help:

- The normal distribution has exactly one shape, centered at x=0. But it's useful to apply two transformations to it: translation and horizontal stretch. To translate a distribution left/right, change its mean. To horizontally stretch a normal distribution, change its standard deviation.

- Mean has units of length. Standard deviation has units of length. They tell you where the normal distribution is offset, and how wide it is. Mean and standard deviation are just measuring sticks/rulers for normal distributions.

- When people talk about the standard deviation with any arbitrary data, they're usually assuming the data is normally distributed. If the data is not normally distributed, standard deviation no longer refers to the width of the normal distribution, so we lose that visualization.

- With non-normally distributed data, the standard deviation is still useful as an analytical tool because taking the (sqrt of the) summed squares still gives us a number that grows as the data spreads further apart or if the distribution grows wider. There's a center point for the data (the mean), so to ensure you're measuring the overall spread of the data, you subtract the center point off each data point before squaring them. In other words, you're squaring deviations from the mean. And unlike the sum of absolute differences, the sum of squared differences (variance) is differentiable. Differentiability is a great property, so this is the standard way to compute a sum of deviations from the center.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by blondin on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:19AM (#21670555)
GP must be talking about the shortcut procedure to do it that is taught in schools.

also maybe they are specific about they way they do long division in the US? it was a surprise to me in college too and i have a french background. it's not how the french system does long division...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chongli on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:57AM (#21670468)
Now you’re talking about something different. The proof of the division algorithm is built up from a bunch of other machinery. It relies on the fact that the ring of integers is a Euclidean domain.

Take a course in ring theory if you want to see how all of this machinery gets built up.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:26AM (#21668718)
Bud, I really hope you can grasp more complicated algorithms than that if you have a PhD in computer science. It's one thing to call it unintuitive and not worth your time, but let's not be hyperbolic.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by notacoward on Sunday December 01, 2019 @11:33AM (#21676203)
Some people are just pathological hyperbolists. I think that's really the handicap here, not any facility for understanding algorithms.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:29AM (#21668725)
No I have genuinely tried to learn it and I have no understanding why I am doing any of the steps in the algorithm.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by SamReidHughes on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:27AM (#21669674)
Try again? Long division, dividing A by B, is a for loop that maintains the invariant A = QB + R, where Q is the number written on top (initially 0) and R is the number written on the bottom (initially A), by subtracting values of the form B(C)(10^N) from R and adding values (C)(10^N) to Q to compensate.

    func Longdiv(A, B) {
        // Assume A > 0, B > 0.
        N = floor(log10(A))
        Q = 0
        R = A
        while (N >= 0) {
            // Invariant: A = B * Q + R
            // Invariant: B * 10^(N+1) > R
            C = 0
            while (B * (C + 1) * (10 ^ N) <= R) {
                C += 1
            }
            // C is the largest C such that  B * C * 10 ^ N <= R
            R -= B * C * (10 ^ N)
            Q += C * (10 ^ N)
            // R is still positive.
            // Invariant A = B * Q + R is maintained.
            // We know B * 10^N > R because otherwise we
            // would have picked a larger C.
            N -= 1
            // Invariant B * 10^(N+1) > R is maintained.
        }
        // By loop invariants, we have
        // A = B * Q + R and B * 10^0 > R.
        return (Q, R)
    }
This is ten lines, not “astronomically complicated.”
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:49AM (#21669736)
This is just re-stating the algorithm for the umpteenth time. I can read the algorithm. I just can't intuit why it works or why it has been designed this way.

I mean your very first line has a logarithmic operation that was not mentioned anywhere in your text or your comment! Just pops in there out of nowhere. I guess it's about the number of decimal digits? But why? Why are we doing things in decimal?

A dense ten-line algorithm like this seems far more complicated than other algorithms we try to get school children to memorise.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by seppel on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:38AM (#21670131)
> Why are we doing things in decimal?

I think this is maybe the crucial part that you might be missing. All this long division (and long multiplication) stuff works on base-n represenations of numbers. I.e. if you have an number like 3376, it is actually a short hand for

  3*10^3 + 3*10^2 + 7*10^1 + 6*10^0.
And if want to divide it 4 and, suppose, you cannot do it in your head, you do it step by step, by clever regrouping with the distribute law:

  (3*10^3 + 3*10^2 + 7*10^1 + 6*10^0) / 4 ==

  3*10^3/4 + 3*10^2/4 + 7*10^1/4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==
(3/4 does not work, so let merge the first two again)

  (3*10^3 + 3*10^2)/4 + 7*10^1/4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  (33)/4*10^2 + 7*10^1 /4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==
(now we have progress)

  (33)/4*10^2 + 7*10^1 /4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  (32+1)/4*10^2 + 7*10^1 /4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  (32)/4*10^2 + (1)/4*10^2 + 7*10^1 /4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  8*10^2 + (1)/4*10^2 + 7*10^1 /4 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==
(now merge the 1 and the 7 group)

  8*10^2 + (17)/4*10^1 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  8*10^2 + (16+1)/4*10^1 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  8*10^2 + 4*10^1 + (1)/4*10^1 + 6*10^0 / 4 ==

  8*10^2 + 4*10^1 + (16)/4*10^0 / 4 ==

  844
The same works for other bases. If you were to implement some bignum library, you would also choose some base n representation for you numbers. Base 10 is not so optimal for computers, so maybe you chose base 2^32. If you then were to implement a division function, you would use similar algorithms.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dclowd9901 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:45AM (#21670404)
Hell yes! You finally made this clear for me why we can go through the dividend number by number (or power of 10 by power of 10) to apply the divisor. Thank you so much!
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by edflsafoiewq on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:49PM (#21671166)
You don't have to do things in decimal, it's just convenient since you get the answer digit-by-digit.

The idea of long division is just that to solve A/B, we can find another problem C/B we know the answer to and break it into the smaller problem A/B = (A-C)/B + C/B.

For example, to solve 742/13, the normal way is to observe that 13×5=65 is as close as we can get to 74 without going over, so we can reduce this to

    742/13 = (742 - 13×50)/13 + 13×50/13
           = (742 - 650)/13 + 50
           = 92/13 + 50
Now we only have to solve the simpler problem 92/13. All the long division stuff is just a book-keeping method for this data.

But you could also use 13×4=52 and work out

    742/13 = (742 - 520)/13 + 40 = 222/13 + 40
    222/13 = (222 - 130)/13 + 10 =  92/13 + 10
     92/13 = ( 92 -  91)/13 +  7 =   1/13 +  7
This gives the same answer, but it goes 40->50->57. The normal long division goes 50->57, so it never "goes back" on a digit it has decided on.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by SamReidHughes on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:04AM (#21669781)
> But why? Why are we doing things in decimal?

We’re subtracting off multiples of 10^N because that’s easy when you write your numbers in base 10. Try subtracting off multiples of 9^N, or multiples of N!, or some other choice, and you’ll see why.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:17AM (#21669826)
Ok, but do you see what I mean about how that part was just sitting there without any explanation? That's why I find it hard.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by xorcist on Sunday December 01, 2019 @04:19PM (#21677851)
Is the question really why we train children on basic arithmetics in base 10?

That could be meant shallow or deep. The shallow answer is because that's all you need to do to function in society (and conversely, while arguing with a police officer about the presumed base on speed limit signs may be fun, it is also pointless).

The other answer probably needs to explore the question a bit further. Perhaps a good starting point is the fact that we almost universally share the physical characteristics of having ten fingers.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by hackermailman on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:19AM (#21670552)
Wildberger has a channel that explains this from scratch, also shows a different method of long division https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5A714C94D40392AB

His method for polynomials/derivatives is also interesting if you watch until the end, dead simple calculus.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by rocqua on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:27AM (#21669866)
It sounds like you've memorized the very specific notational steps. But if you would have to come up with an algorithm for doing division using only integers with multiplication, subtraction and comparisons, you would come up with some equivalent to long division.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by theli0nheart on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:25AM (#21670066)
This animated image of long division from Wikipedia might help show what’s going on:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LongDivisionAnimated...

In essence, repeated subtractions. The blank areas to the right of each number are really just zeros.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by stjohnswarts on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:31PM (#21671050)
If someone really showed it to you then you would understand it. In school you're just taught the algorithm.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marakv2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:50AM (#21669740)
What?

35/350 (to simplify) Once is 325, twice is 300, X, X, X, we end up at 10 times is 350 divisible by 35.

I'm wondering if I'm missing something (and if I am I'll own up to it lol)

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chrisseaton on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:53AM (#21669748)
Lol I can't understand any of that. 'Once is', 'twice is' what does that mean? Once what is what? Twice what is what? You aren't even writing coherent English phrases how am I supposed to follow that?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by anewone on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:27AM (#21669864)
They're referring to the number of times to subtract 35 from 350. Do it 10 times and you end up with 0, there is nothing more to divide and so 10 is the answer.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:19AM (#21670045)
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by billfruit on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:51AM (#21669945)
Well if long division is unintuitive, the procedure to compute square-roots by hand is even more mysterious, as if it has transcended dealing with numbers and instead become a symbolic manipulation. Thankfully it is something I never had to apply, even once in adult life till now.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by hervature on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:45AM (#21670170)
How do you compute square roots by hand? Isn't it just a rudimentary root finding algorithm?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by gshubert17 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:51AM (#21670436)
The calculation of the square root, relies on this result from squaring a number N = 10d + e (that is, single digits d and e, but d is in the 10s place):

NN = (10d + e)(10d + e) = 100dd + 20de + ee

Group the digits of the square by two, and add extra values to the "divisor" so that the extraction of the square root in effect undoes the squaring above.

See, for example, https://sciencing.com/calculate-square-root-hand-5081134.htm...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jonsen on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:31AM (#21670359)
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by all2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:06AM (#21670249)
The only by-hand method for finding roots I know is "Newton's Method". I think I learned this in pure calculus?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_method

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chongli on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:45AM (#21670406)
The older method is attributed to Hero of Alexandria [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_method

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by billfruit on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:27AM (#21670349)
There is a method known as the the method of 'long-division' for finding the square root, that was what I was alluding to.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:50PM (#21668588)
It wasn't until I learned about for-loops that I started thinking of multiplication as repeated addition and division as repeated subtraction. Before then I thought purely in terms of geometry.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by novok on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:17AM (#21668681)
I think it depends on how you were taught the concepts in elementary school. I think a lot of it is based on things like bar charts[0] and visual representations at first, so it's possible you were never taught how it was repeated subtraction and addition, how powers are repeated multiplication and so on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_math#Bar_modeling

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by geomark on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:15AM (#21669821)
At my kid's school they start teaching division as "sharing" - a kid has 10 pieces of candy he wants to share with 5 friends; how many pieces can he share with each friend. Later they describe it as repeated subtraction - how many times can his 5 friends take a piece of candy from the pile of 10 pieces.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:21AM (#21668694)
Yep. I remember in college when I made that connection and realized you could create infinite "levels" of operation, with each repeating the previous one N times.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pas on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:14AM (#21669488)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3A50BB9C34AB36B3

For anyone interested in going down the rabbit hole of those infinite levels.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:17AM (#21670039)
Up-arrow notation ftw.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by all2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:11AM (#21670269)
I'm missing the context here. The only arrows I'm familiar with are vector notation and ion spin notation.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by applecrazy on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:22AM (#21670322)
I think they're talking about this, which appeared in a front-page HN post from yesterday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pbhjpbhj on Sunday December 01, 2019 @02:47PM (#21677416)
Not that story in particular, it's a perennial story on HN - I first learnt about that notation through the "largest number you can write on a postit note" challenge.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by rocqua on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:12AM (#21669812)
If you do this, 2 and 2 will always make 4, no matter what level you go to.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by krilly on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:49AM (#21670424)
I was never told this, and I'm sure the reason why is because my teacher didn't have a clue either
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marakv2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:42AM (#21669711)
I looked up long division thinking that I had missed something, I just want to chime in for support of what you said.

Afaikr it's just division, how man X are in y.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:14AM (#21670030)
Long division calculates the multiple at each step; short division just finds the remainder. That doesn't seem that different but when you come to do it algebraically you need to do long division. I did both at primary school (age 10), but it wasn't until 6th form (age 16) that we used long division again, those who hadn't done it at primary struggled a little.

       083.28
         2.26...
       ___
    7 |583.00
That's short division (sometimes called the "bus stop method" in UK), top line is answer [quotient], next line is "remainders". You say "7 in to 5 won't go; 7 in to 58 is 56 [just from knowledge of times tables, it's 56 tens your dividing], with remainder 2 [write remainder down, usually as a superscript to the dividend]; 7 in to 23 goes 3, remainder 2 [write remainder down]". Now you have the answer 583/7 is 83 remainder 2; but you can continue and divide the 20 tenths by 7, and so on.

Long division:

       083.28
         2.26...
       ___
    7 |583.00 [<-dividend]
       56     [=8x7]
       --
        23    [2 from subtracting answer to 8x7 {8 is put in answer line}, 3 from the dividend]
        21    [=3x7]
        --
         2.0  [2 is remainder, 0 from dividend]
         1.4  [=2x7 is remainder, 0 from dividend]
         ---
          .60
          .56 [=8x7]
           --
            4 [is the remainder in 100ths]
What we're doing is taking five-hundred and saying can we divide that by seven-hundred, we can't. So then we say well how about fifty-eight tens, can we divide that by seven-tens. The tens cancel each other out ( 10/10==1 ), so 58/7 = 8r2 but this is really saying 580/70 is "80 lots of 7" and 20/7 left over. So now we add that 20 units to the 3 units we have already from the dividend we started with, so now we need to do 23/7. And so on ...

I'd do an algebra example but it's a pain in the arse just using ASCII.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by CraneWorm on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:43AM (#21669430)
Oh, right! Easy!

Try it with 1/7?

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by fyp on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:59AM (#21669467)
School usually start with remainders instead of trying to teach repeating decimals at the same time. So here the answer is just 0 remain 1.

The same process still works if you want to calculate the decimals though. Just pretend you're doing (1000000/7) * (1/1000000) or however many digits you want.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by theli0nheart on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:31AM (#21670090)
Shift the decimal point of the operand right by N places (where N is how many decimal places of precision you want), do the long division, then shift the decimal point of the result left by N places, and you have your answer.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by cptskippy on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:10AM (#21669803)
Then you never knew it? Perhaps what you were taught wasn't long division. My kids were not taught the same math that I was taught in the 80s.

My 17 year old was struggling with the division algorithm they were teaching in Elementary school at the time (late 2000s). I can't remember the details but it was something I had never seen before that was a step up from throwing poop at the wall.

I showed her how to do long division and she still uses it to this day. It's simple and there is a history of work to easily identify errors.

The homework scene from The Incredibles 2 really hit home for me. I feel like book publishers development new methods or ways to teach the methods as a means to sell new editions of books, not because the new ways are better. This causes a rift in society because people no longer share a common understanding of a subject.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by kasey_junk on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:24AM (#21669854)
Conversely I have been immediately impressed with the way my first grader is being taught math.

It’s completely different than the way I was taught so I have to invest in figuring it out but it’s led them extremely quickly through multiplication & division and into algebra.

I’d characterize it as “multi-algorithmic”. They come at it from a variety of algorithms, assumedly so that each student can find one that works for them.

As someone who had to teach themselves a different algorithm than I was taught many painful years later this resonates.

Perhaps the rift was always there and you ended up in the lucky side of it?

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by thawaway1837 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:30AM (#21670357)
I remember when the common core debates were taking place, one of the memes running in parenting circles was a comparison of long division vs how common core taught division, and how much more “complicated” the common core version was.

But in reality the common core way explained the actual algorithm and the reason it worked so much better, and further, the only reason it appeared more complicated was because the people who were targeted by the meme already knew long division. If you took someone completely new to both methods, they’d find the more “complicated” algorithm far easier, because a large part of its complexity was explaining why the division worked, whereas long division was about memorizing a process.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by themoat on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:31AM (#21670360)
My little brother was always better at Math than me. Whenever he tried to show me how to do something it was different than how our teachers showed us. He was really good at figuring out a method that made more sense for him, and it certainly worked for him.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by voxl on Saturday November 30, 2019 @02:42PM (#21671795)
Anyone who legitimately thinks common core is worse than how math was previously taught does not understand math at all. It is at worst just different with the dream of being better. There is no conspiracy theory about wanting to sell more books or to "separate the masses".

If you actually understand the math picking up the common core methods is minutes of work at worst.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by garmaine on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:24AM (#21669855)
It is nothing to do with book publishers, but new federal mandates for "Common Core" curriculum as part of the No Child Left Behind legislation.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by tasty_freeze on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:04AM (#21670498)
It isn't a federal mandate, which can be seen because not all states adopted Common Core. There were federal incentives for states adopting a standard which has been recognized as effective, including Common Core.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_In...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by keenmaster on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:50PM (#21668586)
That’s a good point. You know what, it’s way easier to teach how to solve for x when y + x = 3x + 3 and y = 4 than it is to teach long division. As far as I could tell, that basic algebra is also much more important than long division, so why not teach it at an earlier age? The symbology of algebra is probably great for developing minds.

Just show long division for “proofs” while introducing the concept of division, and let kids use a calculator for division after that (supplemented with calculator-free drills). That way there will be more lesson time for advanced topics. Same thing with long multiplication. Show the proofs using long multiplication, then have kids do progressively harder multiplication drills where all the math is done in their head. In fact, kids might grok first principles better that way.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by LegitGandalf on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:21AM (#21668695)
Some guys in Norway made an app that teaches algebra concepts to 5 year olds using pictures, as the game levels up it slides variables and numbers in.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by keenmaster on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:24AM (#21668709)
Are you referring to Dragon Box? This looks awesome.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dragonbox-algebra-12/id6344441...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by LegitGandalf on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:29AM (#21668727)
Yeah,it's amazing, I've hooked multiple friends on this app. It turned my friend's girls math fear around, which is really important given that girls are learning to fear math from teachers who are themselves afraid of math.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/female-teachers-can-transfer...

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by copperx on Saturday November 30, 2019 @03:59AM (#21669187)
You linked to the iOS version. Do you have a link to the app webpage, which will surely have both Play Store and App Store links?
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by yorwba on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:05AM (#21669619)
They also told us what it's called, which is enough to find the app webpage in this case: https://dragonbox.com/
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by ken on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:56AM (#21669757)
I saw my nephew play this. It’s a great idea but I found the implementation lacking.

He got stuck on a level where he had to solve a simple equation, and tried to do it in the “wrong” order. He eliminated an unknown from one side first, and then the system wouldn’t allow him to do the type of operation necessary to complete the other side, maybe because that particular technique hadn’t been taught yet. It would have been a perfectly natural way to solve the equation on a blackboard. I could see they probably wanted him to do the other side first.

My nephew tried the same basic approach 3 times in a row, and then gave up and threw the tablet down and went off to play with Lego or something.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by lotu on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:07PM (#21672406)
Generally a lot of the formalism of Algebra requires specific brain development milestones dealing with abstraction to be reached. That’s why it is taught at the end of middle school. Now could some concepts be introduced earlier? Yes a common exercise in elementary school is to solve questions in the form of 7 + _ = 15. In this case x is replaced with a _ because variables are hard to grasp.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by buzzkillington on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:51PM (#21668593)
You should probably read about it as an adult:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_division

Children are mostly idiots. Education is the process of painfully breaking them out of their idiocy.

Bonus points if you implement a long division algorithm that works on strings in your favorite language.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by marakv2 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:53AM (#21669747)
Children arnt idiots, they are people seeking knowledge. What they need is patience, understanding and slow explanations as they grasp both the concept of what you are saying, the language you use and the minor concepts that you take for granted.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:55PM (#21668611)
Thing is, even now I find it useless. I can do nearly any division in my head whose digits themselves fit in my head (Miller's Law). For anything bigger, I have a pocket supercomputer with me at all times.

You're right that it could be a fun programming exercise, though

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by buzzkillington on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:29AM (#21668728)
If you do code in any capacity not being able to understand long division is a huge red flag. In terms of difficulty it's somewhere between regex and being able to write a recursive function.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:37AM (#21668747)
I didn't understand why it worked (a comment here pointed out that it's just division-by-repeated-subtraction which does make sense now). But I was still able to perform it, during the time when it was relevant to my life.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by copperx on Saturday November 30, 2019 @04:06AM (#21669200)
What's a red flag is being frustrated by long division and at the same time not being curious or resourceful enough to resolve your frustration. You blame your lack of understanding on other people.

I can understand if most people shared your frustration, but not a PhD holder. Your degree basically says that you're capable of doing long, intensive research on arcane topics.

What am I missing here?

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by chownie on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:08AM (#21669478)
From the other comments that user's posted I can kind of understand their sentiment, they've tried to form an understanding from others and then found the same roadblocks repeatedly.

I have impaired executive functioning and this is basically my experience in tying shoelaces, I struggled to accommodate the mental model of the process myself so I sought out others so manage it to try and learn from them.

What instead happened was exasperation on their part and frustration on mine, so after repeating that a few times a year until I was 22 I just stopped and bought shoes without laces.

When you go at it for long enough without succeeding it can make the experimentation not very fun or interesting.

I don't think I'd call it a red flag for a PhD to have fatigued themselves out of interest in a problem, it's something that happens to everyone at some point.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by SamReidHughes on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:05AM (#21669995)
Sometimes even if you drag your brain kicking and screaming through a mathematical topic, it just doesn’t give a shit. I felt the same thing about polynomial long division back in high school — it was just a bunch of gobbledeygook — so I’d forget how to do it, and then divide polynomials by ad-hoc trial multiplication/subtraction, until I figured out the most convenient way to do that was to first cancel away the leading term. And today, I’m uncomfortable with multivariable calculus. I’ve made a few abortive attempts to acclimate to it, and I’m sure I could force myself to get there if I needed to, but right now that’s just not important.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by rimliu on Saturday November 30, 2019 @05:05AM (#21669347)
After a brief glimpse at that page I am glad we were taught the Eurasian method. I had no problem with it.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jknz on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:24AM (#21668708)
Dividend is 123456 and divisor is 37.

37>1, 37>12 but 37*3<=123.

Write down 3 (meant for 3000) and start again with 123456-37x3000 as the new dividend.

I wish the algorithm was taught by writing the full 3000 instead of only the digit 3; this appears to be a source of major confusion and to hide the underlying additions/multiplications.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by alfiedotwtf on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:42PM (#21668556)
It's weird because I was taught long division in primary school that was different to everyone else in class (different maths class). Everyone seems to do some weird subtraction for each digit, whereas I was taught to carry right (i.e almost like how carries work with addition). Way faster, and it works the same all the way to decimal places, no weird remainders. Not sure why that wasn't the standard approach.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by alfiedotwtf on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:06AM (#21669623)
Copied from comment below...

Oh :) I just worked it out - I was taught to fold the subtraction and carry right in one step. I'm an idiot!

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by overlordalex on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:57AM (#21669763)
From elsewhere in this thread I learned that this is actually called "short division"!

I can distinctly remember learning long division as a kid, and I wonder why this isn't immediately taught afterwards as the logical progression

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by username90 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:59AM (#21669595)
This is the problem with rewarding conscientious kids, they just follow instructions without ever asking themselves why. If you were more rebellious and refused to follow steps you didn't understand then you'd get worse grades but you'd learn more.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by DanBC on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:10AM (#21669483)
> They really should try to come up with algorithms that are more intuitively linked to a spatial comprehension of the numbers.

Have you heard of "chunking"?

This video shows old style long division (and you're right, the method is confusing). It also shows an easier method that is based on understanding numbers rather than just applying an algorithm by rote. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2rBaSj2L74

Here's another explanation: https://www.theschoolrun.com/what-is-chunking

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pjscott on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:43PM (#21668559)
My parents invented a simplified division algorithm so they could teach me the four basic arithmetic operations by third grade, and it was so much easier than long division that I could never remember how to do things the conventional way. I just pretended to follow the teachers' instructions for the next few years.

(All these methods had the same asymptotic complexity. Mine was slower by a small constant factor; on the other hand it actually made sense. It was just repeated subtraction!)

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:45PM (#21668567)
I repeatedly got in trouble for not showing my work in the format they wanted, whether because of intuitive leaps or because of tricks I came up with myself.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by anongraddebt on Sunday December 01, 2019 @03:42AM (#21674578)
This worked for me up until Algebra 2. Up through Algebra 1 I'd just do everything in my head, never show my work, and thus solved a lot of problems using non-standard/creative methods on the fly. Ended up hurting myself a lot. I didn't have any muscle memory for solving the trivial parts of problems as I progressed from Algebra 2 through BC Calc. This led to me choosing a non-mathy degree in undergrad.

I could breeze through higher-level logic courses, but was essentially remedial for higher-level math.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by ravenstine on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:44PM (#21668562)
My mom got in trouble with the teacher for doing that kind of thing with me.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pjscott on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:01AM (#21668630)
Teachers are a very mixed bag. Some of them are delighted to see a student learning, in whatever way that learning may happen -- and some are just annoyed that the classroom's reality fails to match up perfectly with their lesson plans. If you're a nail that sticks up, some will try to uplift you further and others will angrily try to nail you down. (And most are somewhere in between.)
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by paleotrope on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:47PM (#21668577)
Your mom didn't get in trouble she just exposed something that the people with PhDs in Education don't want exposed.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by novok on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:41PM (#21668548)
Division is a repeated subtraction operation, and the long division algorithm is just a nice way to lay it out.

Multiplication = repeated addition

Addition = a form of counting

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Friday November 29, 2019 @11:44PM (#21668561)
That makes sense. And actually I think I could re-derive the algorithm from that explanation.

Maybe they need to explain it in those terms. Or use pictures.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by threatofrain on Saturday November 30, 2019 @01:30AM (#21668881)
I prefer to think of subtraction as the inverse of addition, and division as the inverse of multiplication. You only need addition and multiplication if you're dealing with rationals.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dboreham on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:09AM (#21668655)
I've never thought of division as repeated subtraction: it's the inverse of multiplication, or literal division as in I have a pile of beans that I divide equally between N piles.

I don't think you're wrong, just seems an odd way to think about it, and fails to account for any remainder.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by pjscott on Saturday November 30, 2019 @12:14AM (#21668674)
The remainder is what's left after you've repeatedly subtracted, and can't subtract any more before going negative. (I wish that one of my teachers had said this to me, but they were too busy getting everybody to memorize the steps.)
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by kasey_junk on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:17AM (#21669827)
I was taught math via spatial properties and it wasn’t until I came back to it from a logical perspective that I was able to understand it.

Just another anecdotal data point but my experience was completely opposite yours.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by _bxg1 on Saturday November 30, 2019 @10:52AM (#21670446)
True; part of the problem is that everyone is different.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by dannypgh on Saturday November 30, 2019 @08:51AM (#21669944)
> I still don't know why long-division works

I was taught long division in the 4th grade (age 9) but wasn't taught a proof of why it works until a college algebra course (age 19).

For whatever it's worth a different type of long division is taught now under common core. The common core math stuff that I've seen is impressive - there is more focus on teaching things in a way where comprehension of deeper concepts should be possible. It's a shame there's so much fear of it from parents who are upset kids are learning differently than they did.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by brianwawok on Saturday November 30, 2019 @09:37AM (#21670121)
Yes I love the Facebook memes by parents talking about how math is so complicated now. Most American adults struggle to solve a basic algebraic equation, because it’s not used in day to day life. If a new teaching style gives us a better way to teach concepts, seems worth a try..
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by tasty_freeze on Saturday November 30, 2019 @11:28AM (#21670602)
I think one reason why it doesn't make sense to a lot of people is that when doing long division, it is taught with notational shortcuts that obscure what the student is really doing.

Eg, say you are dividing 76543 by 5. The normal procedure is to say something like:

- 5 goes into 7 once. The first quotient digit is 1.

- 1 times 5 is 5, write that under the 7, and draw a short line under the five

- 7 minus 5 is 2; write that under the line you just drew

- the next digit is 6, so write that next to the 2 you just drew, ie, 26

- 5 goes into 26 five times; put that up in the quotient, etc

That minimizing the writing, but it hides what is really happening.

Really what is going on is this. How many times can you subtract 5 from 76543? One procedure would be to subtract five over and over until the remainder is less than five. The number of times you subtracted is the quotient. But in this example you'd have to subtract more than 15000 times. Instead of subtracting 5 at a time and incrementing a count, it would be faster to subtract 50 at a time and increment your quotient by 10 until the result is less than 50, and then switch to subtracting by 5s and incrementing by 1 as before. If you can see why that works, then you realize it would be even faster to subtract by 500 at a time and increment by 100, then switch to subtracting 50 at a time and increment by 10, then subtract 5 at a time and increment by 1. Etc.

So rather than minimizing the amount of digit copying, it would be better at first to write everything out. In this particular case:

- write the dividend: 76543

- remove groups of 50000. we can see we can subtract 50000 from this once; the leading digit of the quotient is 1

- write 50000 (150000) under the 76543

- subtract, writing 26543 (this is the current remainder)

- remove groups of 5000. now we see we can subtract 25000 from this, so the next digit of the quotient is 5.

- write 25000 (55000) under the 26543

- subtract, writing 1543 (current remainder)

- remove groups of 500. 500 goes into that 3 times, so the next digit of the quotient is 3

- write 1500 (3500) under 1543

- subtract, writing 43 (current remainder)

- remove groups of 50. it is larger than the current remainder, so the next digit of the quotient is 0.

- remove groups of 5. 5 goes into 43 eight times, so the next quotient digit is 8

- write 40 (85) under the 43

- subtract. the final remainder is 3.

The sequence of quotient digits was 15308.

The standard way long division is taught, the child skips writing down all the digits of the remainder and it is confusing as to why this all works.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by layoutIfNeeded on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:31AM (#21669532)
Long division is just polynomial division with x = 10.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by nathanwh on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:35AM (#21669542)
This comment is hilariously on the nose for how a lot of math texts read (at least in my experience)

$SIMPLE_CONCEPT that you’re trying your best to understand is easy if you think of it as a specific example of $MORE_COMPLICATED_CONCEPT that you surely can’t understand without understanding $SIMPLE_CONCEPT

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jiggawatts on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:41AM (#21669561)
Wait till you get into Theoretical Physics, where the same thing is being explained by people who don't even have a firm grasp of $MORE_COMPLICATED_CONCEPT, but know just enough to be dangerous with it.

E.g.: I distinctly remember that many of the original articles about the Amplituhedron spent like a page explaining what a triangle was, then jumped straight into functions over higher-dimensional analogues without explaining any of the intermediate steps. Something-something-logarithm-of-a-simplex.

I can grok what a simplex is, but they literally just hand-waved over the bit where they take a logarithm of it in some way.

The page of explanation of what a triangle is was of zero assistance.

Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by jeltz on Saturday November 30, 2019 @07:58AM (#21669769)
That was quite an eye opener though when we were taught polynomial division in high school. Not necessarily for how long division works because I already understood that, but because it was an example where short division could not be used.
Re:Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it ma... by cjfd on Saturday November 30, 2019 @06:23AM (#21669508)
Not really something to be proud of. You basically have just admitted on a forum for programmers that you don't have very much insight in algorithms.