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Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by areoform on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:25AM (#21606338)
Google has the corporate equivalent of ADHD. Having talked with ex-googlers and current googlers, the problem seems to be deeply baked into their culture. The incentive structures seem to favor the sexy over the boring, making it much more likely that someone will get promoted for launching products versus growing one.

The fix seems to be obvious, create a separate path, a maintenance and growth hacker path, where people can take ownership of products and grow them over time. Perhaps people could be judged by their market traction, making them sort-of internal entrepreneurs who over a decade or more, get to share the benefits of shepherding their project.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Retric on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:38AM (#21606495)
My guess is these things are generally unprofitable because their internal costs are so used to operating as a near monopoly they simply can’t do anything on the cheap. Which ends up killing off seemingly viable products.

It’s much like how bell labs invented so much great technology, but could never make the transition to new producers themselves.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by CobrastanJorji on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:00AM (#21606749)
They might not be wrong. Engineers who could be maintaining mildly profitable products could be invented new products that have some percentage chance of being much more profitable. If someone did the math and said the expected value of "engineer working on new projects" was bigger than the expected value of of the the profits of an existing project divided by the number of engineers needed to maintain it, then it'd be logical to abandon a bunch of seemingly profitable products. Bad for PR and for getting folks to trust you on new projects, and you'd need to bake that cost into the calculation, but still potentially the right call.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by thfuran on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:12AM (#21606877)
What's the expected value of not having your brand known for routinely canceling products without much notice? It seems like any company would have to be crazy to want to depend on any new Google service for anything important - and that's bad for Google.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by com2kid on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:23PM (#21607681)
90s and 00s Microsoft was successful in part because they were an incredibly stable platform to develop against.

10 year support goes a long way, and if you paid enough money you could email in your bugs and get custom hot fixes made for issues that annoyed you.

Even their /bad/ technologies had long term support. If you built on top of shiny new thing and Microsoft dropped it in the next release, it was still going to get patches, bug fixes, and the documentation for it wasn't going to vanish from the world as if it never existed.

Of course this was all before cloud services existed. Back then you'd pay for a product and you got software on a disk/CD and there was an expectation that it'd keep working.

One thing that gets overlooked so frequently, by all companies, is that ongoing costs are ongoing. Whenever I see a new fitness tracker kickstarter advertising amazing cloud services for free, my first thought is that the costs from cloud services will eventually exceed the tiny profit that comes from selling physical consumer hardware.

And a few years later another "It's been a great journey" message goes out as the company runs out of money.

Obviously Google won't run out of $, but costs do add up.

Doing the math on how to distribute funding to bundled cloud services is actually rather hard. You have to figure out for a given product / subscription, how much of that purchase price needs to be distributed to the various teams. That sort of attribution is not easy, and not properly allocating those funds to development resources can kill a product. e.g. someone buys a Chromebook, of course the OS team gets money, but the team making Google docs can argue they deserve a split, after all without them the Chromebooks would be somewhat useless. Analytics helps, but only to an extent.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by shadowgovt on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:41PM (#21608549)
You've hit the nail on the head.

Google doesn't run out of money; what Google runs out of is the things money can't buy in the short run, and at their scale that's employee hours and (surprisingly) compute and storage bandwidth (because they're building infrastructure at such volume that they end up saturating supplies and literally can't get more hardware at a reasonable price-point to run all the services they want to run).

Too much breadth of services cuts into how much load they can bear on services that are business-core or revenue-positive.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:43PM (#21611596)
Microsoft didn’t care about developers that was always a talking point. Microsoft maintained backwards compatibility because of a new operating system broke old code, companies wouldn’t upgrade and it made its money from operating systems.

Apple doesn’t care as much about backwards compatibility because it doesn’t really care if you upgrade your operating system - especially on the Mac - or stick with your old one until you buy a new computer. It doesn’t make money on operating system upgrades.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by com2kid on Saturday November 23, 2019 @07:27PM (#21617524)
> Microsoft didn’t care about developers that was always a talking point.

Microsoft put an insane amount of effort into documentation[1] and sample code. They ran developer training programs around the world and published an actual magazine.

They funded the writing and publishing of countless[2] books for developers. They still run Channel 9, where they produce/publish long and short form technical content.

If you wanted to develop for a platform in the 90s/early 2000s, Microsoft had the best documented platforms with an incredible amount of samples to learn from.

[1] Each product team targeted at developers had a dedicated, non-trivial in size, full time documentation team. On top of that Microsoft would hire 3rd party software companies to start using early versions of new APIs and write large scale sample apps using those APIs. I worked on one of these samples apps, it was a complete end to end ordering system for a furniture store that included everything from a tablet pc app for the sales staff to use inputting customer orders, syncing to a database in the warehouse to get the order loaded on a truck, and the delivery driver had an application running to get a signature on delivery of the order. Since this was pre-cellphones everywhere, the truck driver's laptop stored data offline and when brought back to the warehouse it synchronized itself with SQL server using some features new to SQL server at the time.

That was one of thousands of sample apps Microsoft made to show off its APIs. Compare this to the modern world where the cloud database provider billing you by the hour is going to throw out a couple basic hello world examples and that is about it.

[2] Technically countable but a very large #

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:11PM (#21618103)
If you wanted to develop for a platform in the 90s/early 2000s, Microsoft had the best documented platforms with an incredible amount of samples to learn from.

There were no other platforms seriously in contention in the mid 90s and early 2000s. There was Apple circling the drain and Unix vendors were all over the place.

In today’s world, if you are a major corporation that needs help you have all sorts of “partners” that will help you with your chosen platform, information on any API usage is all online.

In the classic MacOS days in the 80s and early 90s, Apple had the multivolume “Inside Macintosh” series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Macintosh

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by olivierduval on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:06PM (#21607492)
Yeah... for example, it's a problem for Google Stadia! Who wants to invests time and money in a platform that can be cancelled at any time?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by 0xEFF on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:40AM (#21607200)
> It seems like any company would have to be crazy to want to depend on any new Google service for anything important.

Companies depend heavily on AdWords, gSuite, and Cloud and all three continue to grow.

The reputation for canceling projects which aren't working may matter to consumers, but I haven't seen anyone in business mention it in their purchasing decisions.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by foobiekr on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:19PM (#21607631)
It might be your vantage point. For several companies I personally engage with this has absolutely been a point of discussion for Gsuite vs O365.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by chipotle_coyote on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:27PM (#21608391)
While I can believe that, there's an obvious distinction between GSuite and most of the services Google kills with abandon: businesses actually pay to use GSuite, which means that unlike Google Reader, Cloud Print, Inbox, and many others, it's a direct revenue generator and it's immensely popular. I don't know that that guarantees its continued existence, but I think it does offer a pretty serious shield.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by angry_octet on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:07AM (#21614457)
Then make me pay for Cloud Print. I'm already paying for Drive and GSuite, I think I can handle $1/year more.

Heck, add features like secure job release, integration with enterprise directory services, and services for brochure printing and online photo printing/albums. Document management and printing services is a huge industry.

Companies and universities hate doing printer driver and device management, and hence all the outsourcing of printers. But the outsourcing companies have to bolt an extra box on many printers to enable printing, or write special printer GUI firmware, makes it expensive. Could all be on your phone instead. Cf https://www.oki.com/ge/printing/services-and-solutions/smart...

https://www.office.xerox.com/software-solutions/xerox-workpl...

Once again, Google has screwed itself and it's users.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:28PM (#21607741)
Looking at adoption in the enterprise, it didn’t go much beyond a discussion....
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by koala_man on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:07PM (#21607513)
>any company would have to be crazy to want to depend on any new Google service for anything important

If the company has an equally good alternative available, chances are Google wouldn't have launched theirs in the first place.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by rudolph9 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:17AM (#21606922)
Do you use cloud print?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by privateSFacct on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:22AM (#21606988)
I have yes - at our office I just bought some cloud print enabled printers so that I could print without some quirks in the AD deployment and remotely. That said, I'm sure traction was low - I saw VERY few others using it. Still very annoying.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dasil003 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:31AM (#21607100)
The more relevant question is: for a new service by Google for which you are a target market would you have any reluctance to use it based on your perceived likelihood that Google will kill in the future?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by kristianc on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:12PM (#21610674)
Based on them killing a service like Cloud Print? No.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by rmsaksida on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:14PM (#21607578)
I've never used Cloud Print, but I have used Reader and Hangouts that were shut down. The perception that Google has no commitment to their products is very strong and transfers to other areas. I'd rather use AWS or Azure than GCP, because I don't trust Google to continue their services offerings or API contracts.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dehrmann on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:49AM (#21607299)
> Engineers...could be invent[ing] new products that have some percentage chance of being much more profitable

Doubtful. The successful products to come out of Google are Search, GMail, and GCP. They bought Adwords, Doubleclick, Android, Youtube, and Nest and Fitbit, I suppose. GCP is their only recent win, but it's a me-too late entrant in a market Google should have invented.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by icebraining on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:40PM (#21610868)
I'm not sure it was profitable, but Orkut, at its peak, had 300 million users, and that purely a result of an experiment by an engineer.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:50PM (#21611327)
You're forgetting Maps, Earth, Docs, Translate, Drive...

Also, many of the acquisitions you mention were tiny when bought, and Google has a much better track record of growing and improving them than, say, Yahoo.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:46PM (#21611614)
Growing and improving yes. Do any of those products help Google’s bottom line or to diversify where their profits come from?

I can see Docs with GSuite especially in education and maybe Drive.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dehrmann on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:53PM (#21612549)
Docs and Drive were also acquisitions. I'll give you Maps and Translate.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by r00fus on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:27PM (#21607730)
Is Nest profitable?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dodobirdlord on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:54PM (#21612360)
> If someone did the math and said the expected value of "engineer working on new projects" was bigger than the expected value of of the the profits of an existing project divided by the number of engineers needed to maintain it, then it'd be logical to abandon a bunch of seemingly profitable products.

In case anyone is wondering, the math has been done. I have been told that Google even has an internal page devoted to informing engineers how much something has to be worth before it is worth their time, and it's a big number.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mushufasa on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:57AM (#21607394)
What if they just sold their low-margin-yet-profitable businesses instead of killing them?

There are several tech PE firms that specialize in that niche. KKR bought Corel (of WordPerfect fame) recently.

I'm also confident someone at Google already had this obvious idea. Any ex-googlers know why they chose not to / cannot do this?

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:25PM (#21608377)
The only reason that Google can throw stuff against the wall and scale it immediately is because they have the infrastructure in place.

I can’t imagine you can decouple Googke’s products from their infrastructure.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by angry_octet on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:11AM (#21614482)
Picassa? Could have open sourced it. There are a few others in the graveyard that were easily able to live on any infrastructure.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:17PM (#21615173)
How do you know how much of Picasa’s code was intertwined with Google’s? Could it have been a profitable in going concern by itself? How?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by angry_octet on Saturday November 23, 2019 @05:13PM (#21616972)
It's traditional software, it runs offline, client side. Which is great for low bandwidth places and the privacy concious. It has some basic ML for face recog. The money is in photo printing, which is a pretty big industry which Google has failed to capture any of.

It had a huge installed base, but of course Google would not sell user engagement in bulk, only in tiny pieces as ads. Advertising the things people take photos of is pretty straightforward too, another reason why Google killed Picasa instead of letting it free.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by thfuran on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:15PM (#21607600)
I strongly suspect that it would generally be a massive undertaking to decouple products from their internal ecosystem and render them able to be spun off.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Mindwipe on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:38PM (#21607848)
They did it with Sketchup I guess.

But that was also an acquisition, so I guess it lifted out of Google's infrastructure more easily.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by gowld on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:55AM (#21607377)
What makes you think it's being killed because it's expensive?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by bhouston on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:59AM (#21606738)
This is the right move though because moving towards "Driverless printing" will solve the overall problem in a simpler way:

https://openprinting.github.io/driverless/

Google is pro-adapting to change. And it is painful but it is usually the right thing.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by taborj on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:04AM (#21606791)
Driverless printing has been "the future" for over a decade now (I remember hearing much about it back in 2006 or so), and a concept for two decades. Microsoft first filed the patent back in 1999 [0]. The only thing that's changed is the patent is now expired (as near as I can tell), thus opening the door a bit wider for adoption.

But, as with many things, "I'll believe it when I see it."

[0] https://patents.google.com/patent/US6952831B1/en

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dTal on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:13AM (#21606887)
Ridiculous that a patent for such a thing should ever have been granted.

"Driver" is merely the word we use for "protocol", when the protocol is ad-hoc, non-standard, or badly documented.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by kube-system on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:04PM (#21609486)
On what grounds should that patent not have been granted?

Seems like a pretty normal patent to me. Technology doesn't have to be likable, a good design, or even functional to be patented.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by pawelmurias on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:16PM (#21610164)
On the grounds that laws allowing such patents shouldn't exist.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mrighele on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:34PM (#21607806)
Isn't "driverless printing" essentially a standard printing protocol + a way to describe the printers capabilities ? If so I would say that driverless printing has been a thing since Postscript was invented (early 80s, if I am not mistaken)?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by pixl97 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:12AM (#21606875)
Otherwise known as "why dont my pdf's print right, and why cant I select tray 3?"
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by wlesieutre on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:14AM (#21606895)
AirPrint on iOS and macOS does this, no?

Not sure if anyone has cloned that in a Windows utility, but a lot of printers support it.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by amluto on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:19PM (#21607641)
Chrome OS supports “native” printing. I think it’s more or less interoperable with AirPrint.

The problem would be mostly solved if Windows added native support and added a giant warning when anyone tries to install a printer driver saying that it’s a terrible idea.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by criddell on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:08PM (#21607516)
Is that driverless or a universal driver? Maybe the distinction doesn't matter...
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by lxgr on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:03AM (#21606781)
Absolutely!

Google Plus is the superior way of keeping up with blogs and news sites, and I am really enjoying texting with my friends over Allo ever since they discontinued Hangouts.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mey on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:32AM (#21607116)
I prefer Google Reader
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by daxfohl on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:42AM (#21607224)
I assume parent poster was being sarcastic
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by psalminen on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:16PM (#21607605)
I believe your parent was too- Google Reader has also been cancelled.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by xkcd-sucks on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:06PM (#21607500)
I bought a $200 Brother laser printer a few years ago. It supports: >LPD >Raw Port >IPP >AirPrint >Mopria >Google Cloud Print

and, I think, a bunch of proprietary HP/Epson protocols.

The best part is the toner cartridge that comes with it lasts long enough to totally recoup the cost difference between it and a "consumer" inkjet printer

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Someone1234 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:19AM (#21606945)
Until there's more competition in the printer space: good luck.

Printer companies want to differentiate and upsell. The best way of doing that is via software which means first party "drivers" (which is really this huge bundle of bloat and ads at this point). If anyone has recently installed a consumer inkjet for a family member will know what I am talking about. It is basically adware.

Those of us sticking to our nice boring laser printers aren't the main market for consumer printers, it is the Epson/HP/etc sold by big box retailers.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by criddell on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:11PM (#21607556)
HPs small business printers are annoying too. I bought an OfficeJet 8720 for my home and it's a pretty good printer except for the fact that they are relentless when it comes to pushing their auto-ink ordering. They also really want you to make an account at HP and put the printer on the internet.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by wiseleo on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:13PM (#21610138)
When people ask me about home printers for very occasional use, I advise them to use Staples/Office Depot/FedEx office printers at 12-14 cents per page. Saved a lot of people from buying printers.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:51PM (#21611636)
Printer manufacturers don’t care about up selling. They want to sell high margins ink/toner. All consumer printers support iOS and MacOS that don’t require drivers.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by gowld on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:57AM (#21607392)
Ahem.

> There exist a variety of methods for a client to submit a job to a printing system and print driverlessly-:

Use a cloud service such as Google Cloud Print (GCP).

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by vchak1 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:56AM (#21607385)
I guess Waymo will take it over in that case.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by reaperducer on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:36AM (#21607160)
The incentive structures seem to favor the sexy over the boring, making it much more likely that someone will get promoted for launching products versus growing one.

Bottom line: Google is not ready for the enterprise.

I know a mid-sized travel company ($500m+ revenue) that will have its workflow seriously disrupted by this.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by briffle on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:24PM (#21607683)
I know that no companies ever, ever! had to shift their core tech and workflows away from MSN Messenger to Windows Live Communicator to Skype to Teams.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by minblaster on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:13PM (#21607570)
Sounds like they’ll learn a valuable lesson about not relying on services they aren’t paying to keep alive.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dbdjfjrjvebd on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:52AM (#21607332)
Why would someone plan important workflows around a BETA product????
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by reaperducer on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:54AM (#21607359)
Ten years is not beta.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dbdjfjrjvebd on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:58AM (#21607409)
The status was always beta. If a company says their product is beta then you should believe them.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by olivierduval on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:09PM (#21607536)
Google should say: "My product is TECHNICALLY release quality, but my BUSINESS MODEL is not finished right now, so I will cancel a working product if I can get enough money out of it".
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by uoaei on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:26PM (#21608387)
Yeah, this is like the "early access" video games that never end up being released.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by DannyB2 on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:37AM (#21606492)
While Cloud Print may be an exception, a problem seems to be that Google has perverse incentives.

Creating new products is probably over incentivized, while the boring work of operating and maintaining existing useful products is under incentivized.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by ajford on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:02AM (#21606768)
From my conversations with ex-googlers, it's exactly this. Like you and OP suggested, promotions and bonuses are heavily tied to launching new things. Being on the team that launches the next new shiny moves you up the ladder.

However, those who stay on a product and continue to grow/advance the product don't get nearly as much recognition, and don't get the incentives that a launch does.

This translates to people jumping on board an pre-launch project, riding it through launch, then moving on to the next thing, leaving the project in a post-launch slump with few people lingering to maintain and grow the project.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by rgbrenner on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:39AM (#21607191)
Their leadership has no vision. They don't know what to build, where they're going, or what problems they need to solve..

So they encourage these random projects hoping one of their employees will have a vision for them.

So the organization just flails around hoping to win the lottery. Each new project is a new lottery ticket.. saving the leadership from making any hard decisions.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by FreakyT on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:07PM (#21607504)
Agreed -- I saw Sundar give the keynote at Google I/O last year, and while it was obvious that he was really into the tech, it was equally obvious he had no overarching vision for any of the things he talked about, outside of a general sense of "wow, isn't this cool?"

Google really needs to ditch him and find a new CEO capable of providing some actual vision and direction, not just randomly lead them to chase various cool technologies.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by paggle on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:09PM (#21608204)
If you look at Google's stock price over Sundar's tenure as CEO you will see why it's very unlikely they "ditch him." Same thing happened with Ballmer.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by MR4D on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:17PM (#21608280)
That’s not the right comparison. He should be compared to the S&P 500. Maybe even compared to large growth firms.

When compared to both, he’s done about average or less, depending on which benchmark you use. [0]

[0] - https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio?s=y&t...

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by OnlineGladiator on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:16PM (#21608275)
You really think Sundar is having as negative an impact on Google as Ballmer did for Microsoft? I agree Google has lost its way, but I wouldn't go that far.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by konschubert on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:59AM (#21607422)
Google is basically a startup builder. And a really good one.

How many companies manage to stay so innovative after having found their rainmaker product?

However, they should probably sell their successful startups instead of killing them.

But I guess they don’t need the money.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:22PM (#21607658)
How are they a really good startup builder? What have they built in house that has been a success since Gmail?

After flailing around for a decade, almost all of their profit is still based on ads. They are less diversified than any of the big tech companies besides Facebook.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by derefr on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:44PM (#21607928)
Google is a startup builder but also a bureaucracy that serves as a startup killer. I have a feeling that a lot of the projects Google creates would thrive if Google had budded them off, and only end up dying because they keep them living within the company. (For example, Google Reader, if budded off, would have just been Feedly a decade earlier, which is a fine standalone company.)
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by panopticon on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:59PM (#21608752)
I think Google's scale is a problem here. They're always talking about the "next billion users". With that mindset, nothing short of hundreds of millions of users is a success.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by iamaelephant on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:36PM (#21607836)
Android, Chromebook, the Home series, Maps, Drive, Google Cloud, Docs/Sheets and many more. A lot has happened since Gmail.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by chalst on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:58PM (#21608102)
Maps is a clear in-house success.

Android and Docs/Drive/Sheets were two acquisitions.

Google is certainly a contender in cloud computing services, but they have a market share of 4% in 2018 for a product category they were one of the first to enter on a big scale, and I don't think niche success is what they are after.

I'm not sure what I think about Chromebooks. I'd like to hope that it has an exciting, Fuchsia-coloured future.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:35PM (#21608481)
Isn’t it telling that a former bookseller was able to execute better in the cloud market than Google?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mburns on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:17PM (#21609605)
Not really, no.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by brozaman on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:07PM (#21608837)
Maps is also an acquisition, although we could argue that what google maps successful was developed after the acquisition.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Mindwipe on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:35PM (#21607823)
I think it's been notable in the current hubbub about Stadia some have been pointing towards Gmail, Maps etc as proof Google doesn't kill everything.

But the thing is all the examples seem to be more than five years old, because god help me but they don't seem to have done anything in quite a while to be honest.

Google desperately needs to rethink how it moves into new areas and launches new products. "You'll get it when it arrives" seems like such a terrible attitude to take with the general public.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by chalst on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:37PM (#21607839)
Maps counts, I think. But that's going back awhile.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by cpeterso on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:59PM (#21608107)
Google Maps was not an in-house project. Google assembled it by acquiring mapping companies Where 2 Technologies and Keyhole.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by paganel on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:18PM (#21608287)
Which is the reason why import and export files for Gmaps/Google Earth are called .kml [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyhole_Markup_Language

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by chalst on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:43PM (#21608582)
I should have checked Wikipedia at least, who link to a 2005 CNET story on the Where 2 acquisition. - https://www.cnet.com/news/google-mapper-take-browsers-to-the...

It looks like a talent acquisition: the Where 2 codebase was a C++ app, nothing to do with the Ajax implementation they rolled out.

I'd be interested in learning more about this story.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by cpeterso on Friday November 22, 2019 @09:25PM (#21612017)
Good news! :) Bill Kilday, a founder at Keyhole, wrote a book about Keyhole, Where 2, and Google Earth and Maps: "Never Lost Again: The Google Mapping Revolution That Sparked New Industries and Augmented Our Reality". It's not very technical, but it has a lot of interesting history about the products' development and internal Google politics.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062673041

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mongol on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:08PM (#21608199)
Chrome? Chromecast? Chromebook?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:29PM (#21608426)
Chrome was basically a reskinned WebKit browser earlier on and then they forked it. I doubt Chromecast (the device) is more than a break even if that. It costs the same as a Roku stick and the CEO of Roku said their hardware doesn’t make a profit. They make money from advertising.

The Chromebook sells are minuscule.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by martinpw on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:42PM (#21643900)
> The Chromebook sells are minuscule.

Chromebook sales were 21% of notebook sales in the US in Q4 2018 and the percentage is growing:

https://chromeunboxed.com/chromebooks-make-big-strides-in-sa...

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by birdyrooster on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:07PM (#21607510)
I almost think they let their engineers launch products just so they can’t quit and go to another company.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by drewda on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:38PM (#21607846)
You just described the official purpose of https://area120.google.com/
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by birdyrooster on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:47PM (#21611301)
Is that Google officially accepting that 20% time is actually 120% time?

I’m proud of them for baring the truth even if it is a bit oblique.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by paganel on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:20PM (#21608316)
I have had the exact same thought about Google for about 2 years now (and about the other big SV companies in general). I guess these golden cages are cheaper compared to doing acquihires further down the road.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by TMWNN on Saturday November 23, 2019 @04:02AM (#21613192)
I read recently here that FAANGs hire people not because they need them, but to keep them away from rivals.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by shadowgovt on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:29PM (#21608427)
It's unclear who would buy. Lots of companies and private organizations were benefitting from Cloud Print, but would any of them be interested in taking on the cost of operating it?

Also, would enough Googlers be willing to spin out from "the mothership" to go work for a spinoff that likely couldn't afford the same benefits package?

(And this is to say nothing of the fact that most of Google's software is written atop Google's internal software infrastructure, which generally cannot be ported out of the company. It just won't work outside the ecosystem of services it assumes exist).

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Loughla on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:05PM (#21607489)
>So the organization just flails around hoping to win the lottery. Each new project is a new lottery ticket.. saving the leadership from making any hard decisions.

Not to be hateful, and I couldn't possibly live further from the SV area, but isn't that just a description of startup culture? Are they just being the most successful startup?

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by _wldu on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:57AM (#21607397)
It seems pretty bold and visionary to me. They've lucked out with gmail, chrome, golang, android, maps, etc. and they still have the best search in the world.

Having a HIPPO tell everyone what to do, how to do it and when is not visionary. Letting engineers do what they want and then making money from the ideas is.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:24PM (#21607688)
Chrome was split off from WebKit, Android was acquired. They didn’t build either from scratch.

Compare their success to failure ratio to Apple, Amazon and Microsoft.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by kevinslashslash on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:37PM (#21609210)
And Apple bought NeXT which is what macOS and iOS are based off of. A purity contest of "from scratch" isn't really relevant. Google clearly put, and continues to put, a lot of serious technical work into Chrome and Android which is reflected in their success.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:17PM (#21609607)
Chrome isn’t a “success” because of any technical work. It’s a success because Google hocked it on their home page.

How is Chrome anymore of technical success than other browsers?

As far as Android, it came out in the Oracle trial that it only made about $22 billion in profit during its entire existence and the entire ecosystem is still a mess as far as security and updates compared to Windows - ie where one company controls the operating system and licenses it to other OEMs.

Not to mention that the entire Android market is a profit less race to the bottom for all of the manufacturers.

All that being said, Google still derives almost all of its profit from ads compared to Apple, Microsoft and Amazon who have had far more success in introducing diversified products.

But if Google’s failures can be attributed to a lack of leadership, most of Apple’s current success wasn’t the result of the NeXT acquisition. It was the result of bringing its founder back.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by username90 on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:38PM (#21610368)
> How is Chrome anymore of technical success than other browsers?

When chrome was new it was extremely innovative with how much space it gave to websites, and also came with orders of magnitude faster javascript. The other browsers then copied Chrome so all of them are now fast and sleek, but back then the difference was huge.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:43PM (#21610421)
Orders of magnitude faster than JavaScriptCore in 2008?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by username90 on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:50PM (#21610490)
Yes, it depends on what benchmarks you ran though. Example:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/google-chrome-is-insanely-fast...

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:19PM (#21610729)
I specifically asked about JavaScriptCore - the (open source) JS engine part of Safari.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by amluto on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:12PM (#21607565)
> and they still have the best search in the world.

Which is disappointing, since Google of ten years ago had a distinctly better search.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Enginerrrd on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:34PM (#21608473)
Yes! As soon as wikipedia stopped being the first result for nearly everything it started going downhill. The decline in usability for me has been most notable in the last 5 years.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by airstrike on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:52PM (#21608030)
Better for users, but not for investors.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by bouvin on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:39PM (#21607869)
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by jefftk on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:01PM (#21608122)
"Google Maps began as a C++ desktop program at Where 2 Technologies. In October 2004, the company was acquired by Google, which converted it into a web application. After additional acquisitions of a geospatial data visualization company and a realtime traffic analyzer, Google Maps was launched in February 2005."
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by ivoras on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:43PM (#21608577)
Though it completely goes against the grain and it's fairly tongue in cheek - sometimes I wonder if the belligerent drive to innovation is really helping anyone but the stockholders.

Of course, innovation is positive and generally drives the quality of life in the civilisation, but... if Google stayed as Search + GMail + AdWords/Sense for decades and only worked to update those services to be generally useful and offer decently modern UX, who'd blame them? Sure, that'd turn them into a sort of utility, but again - who in the general population would actually lose from that?

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by gowld on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:55AM (#21607373)
What's wrong with tapping the wisdom of the rank and file? Why bottleneck 10K+ smart creative people by a few power-hoarding learders?

That's usually regarded as the great "bazaar" / "free market" style of getting the best ideas out of the community.

The failure is in not well supporting the good ideas that come up.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:27PM (#21607719)
What’s wrong with putting ideas in public and then discontinuing them means that no one will invest time or money in your products. If you were a printer manufacturer would you support whatever Google comes up with to allow Android devices to support printing without needing to write specific drivers?

Apple released AirPrint in 2010. AirPrint compatible printer still works with an iPad 1.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by cuban-frisbee on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:47PM (#21607968)
Having a vision doesn’t prevent the rank and file from contributing quite the opposite. Look at Microsoft. Nadella has a strong vision for the company and great things are constantly created from every level that aligns with that vision. The new surface neo, xbox adaptive controller, gamebar,razor components, the whole .net team. All of it is about empowerment, that is what vision can do.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by treebornfrog on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:16PM (#21608270)
Couldn't articulate it better.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by TheRealPomax on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:05PM (#21608169)
Except when it keeps paying off, it's not so much "hoping" as just "being big enough to throw so many things at a wall that has such a high payout, anything sticking means winning the lottery. Again. And again. And again"...

Google can literally _afford_ to kill off highly profitable ventures because something else will make them _more_ money.

(which in itself should be reason enough to judicially split this company up, but that's apparently no longer a thing we do, so here we are)

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mumblemumble on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:05PM (#21607482)
> Google has the corporate equivalent of ADHD.

This isn't Google-specific. Based on my own first-hand experience working in a Global 500 company, I'm inclined to say that it's actually inevitable in any sufficiently large company with a sufficiently large range of business.

The fundamental problem is that there's just way too much heterogeneity for senior leadership to possibly understand all the company's lines of business. Which means that it's impossible to make thoughtful, intentional decisions about all of it at the corporate level. I'm guessing the best strategy is to focus on the bread-and-butter business, and treat all the rest with a sort of benign neglect. That seems to be what Google is doing. But you can't neglect things indefinitely - you do need to occasionally clean out the hallway closet and get rid of all the stuff you didn't even remember you had.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by magduf on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:51PM (#21608027)
>The fundamental problem is that there's just way too much heterogeneity for senior leadership to possibly understand all the company's lines of business. Which means that it's impossible to make thoughtful, intentional decisions about all of it at the corporate level.

Enormous Japanese and Korean companies don't seem to have this trouble, and they're far more heterogeneous than any American company. Yamaha for instance makes boat engines and high-end pianos and audio electronics.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by tech-historian on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:06PM (#21607491)
I don't disagree with your assertions. But I want to point out that other tech giants sunset stuff all the time too. It some ways, it's endemic to the industry. Here's a list of everything Microsoft shut down over the years. It's a big list.

https://www.versionmuseum.com/history-of/discontinued-micros...

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Majromax on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:39PM (#21608520)
As of this writing, that list contains about 270 items over about 35 years (from the first closure). The "Killed by Google" list contains 191 over 13 years.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by wetpaws on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:52PM (#21609370)
It would be interesting to know total lunched products to closed products ratio, pretty sure MS looks better in this aspect as well
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by tech-historian on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:52PM (#21609947)
That would be an interesting analysis. Just keep in mind that "products" are nuanced; it's not always apples to apples. Both companies have some products that are free and some that cost lots of money. Some items are full blown enterprise applications, and some are just labs-style projects. All these different types of products are weighted the same in these lists.

But I don't necessarily think they have the same weight, so to speak. For example, the majority of products Google shut down were free, and the majority of Microsoft's were not. How should that be evaluated? I don't really know! It would be interesting to look at this.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @08:01PM (#21611668)
Many of those products were cut down consumer products with a clear migration path (Outlook Express, Works, Personal Webserver, etc) or products that were declining in popularity (the older languages).

They were also mostly software that you could run practically forever without MS support because MS strives for backwards compatibility. Once Google subsets a service, you can’t use it anymore.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by pjmlp on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:31AM (#21607101)
Android is specially bad, not only we have to deal with lack of updates, half backed Java support, many libraries and best practices announced at one IO, are already forgotten the following year.

Latest example, now that ConstraintLayout is finally working properly, they come up with JetPack Composer, most likely due to Flutter marketing pressure.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by zelly on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:20AM (#21606960)
They should just sell their dead products. I know they don't need money, but someone could probably maintain the Cloud Print codebase and add value to the world.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by brandmeyer on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:25AM (#21607025)
It wouldn't be practical. The great advantage of the monorepo is that it encourages teams to use libraries from almost anywhere in the company. One disadvantage is that it makes splitting out those codebases almost impossible.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by archgoon on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:43AM (#21607237)
Has happened though; Niantic for example.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by gowld on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:01PM (#21607442)
Niantic was an "internal startup", more like an X project than part of Google borg. It didn't integrate with major infrastructure like GSuite. It ran on AppEngine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12607874
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by slig on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:24AM (#21607012)
I've heard numerous times about how everything inside Google is so tightly coupled to their infrastructure that making it work outside is extremely difficult.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by shadowgovt on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:44PM (#21608602)
It's true. Trying to isolate a specific product and deploy it independently if it's grown up "organically" inside Google's core infrastructure is like trying to take an animal from the rainforest and air-drop it into Antarctica with a "good luck" and a smile.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by bobongo on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:22AM (#21606989)
They would mean selling all documents ever printed using their product.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dewey on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:27AM (#21607047)
How did you make the connection from "Cloud Print codebase" to selling the database of all users with it?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by bobongo on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:21PM (#21615187)
Because why would anyone buy what basically is a CUPS implementation if not for the user data?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dewey on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:25PM (#21615206)
Sometimes companies that are doing "basically a X implementation" are still worth a lot.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by bobongo on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:01PM (#21640133)
That is very true. I guess I got too jaded about consumer data sharing/exchange between companies. Thanks for your feedback!
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by jorblumesea on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:25AM (#21607032)
> The incentive structures seem to favor the sexy over the boring, making it much more likely that someone will get promoted for launching products versus growing one.

This is the entire industry. I work for a non-sexy "tech" travel company, and it's the same thing. Pay down tech debt? Good luck getting any kind of recognition. Make a react graphQL api? You're making senior.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by malvosenior on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:09PM (#21607528)
That's funny because other than Google Street View, I can't think of any "sexy" things Google has done. It's mostly really mundane (if sometimes well executed) products and me-too style copycats of chat products. Oh and of course tons of horrible ad tech stuff.

I can't say Google's launched anything exciting in the past decade. If they're shooting for sexy, they're failing miserably.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by paganel on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:28PM (#21608411)
There was a time when the YouTube “recommended” list was quite good (around 2011-2013), that’s how I discovered lots of very interesting music back then. In the meantime things have gone considerably downhill.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by freedomben on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:14PM (#21609574)
I've noticed this too, and not just with Google. Same with Amazon and many other big tech companies.

I've wondered why, and the only thing I can think of is that they are all jumping to machine learning, and the results are worse than the old-fashioned algorithms.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by datguacdoh on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:17PM (#21607618)
Loon, Waymo, and Stadia seem pretty sexy, for entirely new product spaces. And within the current products AR maps, digital assistant, and AI auto complete in Gmail are pretty cool but I guess that's highly dependent on what you as an individual would care about.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by pjmlp on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:19PM (#21608302)
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by rishav_sharan on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:25PM (#21608379)
Gmail was the sexiest thing when it launched. I remember I was so desperate for the Beta invite.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by techer on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:01AM (#21606759)
Sorry I can’t remember where I recently read this - but as I worked for a large company with one, entrenched major revenue stream it rang true to me:

Sometimes it’s in the best interests of the company to only have one major revenue stream!

They receive press and seem as innovators/bandwagon jumpers simply by entering the ‘flavour of the month’.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by JackRabbitSlim on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:23PM (#21607674)
Fix what? What's broken? The fact that they don't give a fuck what customers want? Doesn't seem to be a problem given their market position.

If something is deeply broken, it's what allows them to thrive in spite of themselves.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by daxfohl on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:09PM (#21607530)
But many of these products, if they were a company in themselves, would be out of business. So why should Google keep them alive?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by pishpash on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:39PM (#21608530)
When you can print money every project looks good. It's the same thing as government waste or academic faffing.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Spooky23 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:53AM (#21607352)
I think in this case, Google Cloud Print is a flawed product and doesn't present a business benefit for Google, specifically growing the ChromeOS platform and broader Chrome ecosystem.

If anything it's a barrier to any organizational adoption. You have the exfiltration of data to Google, and a weird protocol implementation that's a relic of last decade.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by j45 on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:56AM (#21606713)
Probably more indicative of the amount of usage it got vs the data it generated for them
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by debt on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:52AM (#21607339)
I mean they kept it around for 10 years before killing it. They certainly tried.

It's printing physical paper. It's 2019, does it really confuse anyone as to why they would kill a product that prints paper? Even if it was successful in the short term, which it wasn't, it seems very rational to kill Cloud Print from a business perspective in the long term.

The developed world been moving far, far away from print for a while now. I imagine if you look at the graph of overall paper usage, you'll see it going down and to the right for some time into the future until it's near zero. Definitely the wrong business to be in.

It has no long-term prospects.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Spooky23 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:58AM (#21607407)
Print isn't growing, but it isn't dead either. Many people don't print as often as they did in 1999, but fewer people than you think never print.