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Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Retric on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:38AM (#21606495)
My guess is these things are generally unprofitable because their internal costs are so used to operating as a near monopoly they simply can’t do anything on the cheap. Which ends up killing off seemingly viable products.

It’s much like how bell labs invented so much great technology, but could never make the transition to new producers themselves.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by CobrastanJorji on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:00AM (#21606749)
They might not be wrong. Engineers who could be maintaining mildly profitable products could be invented new products that have some percentage chance of being much more profitable. If someone did the math and said the expected value of "engineer working on new projects" was bigger than the expected value of of the the profits of an existing project divided by the number of engineers needed to maintain it, then it'd be logical to abandon a bunch of seemingly profitable products. Bad for PR and for getting folks to trust you on new projects, and you'd need to bake that cost into the calculation, but still potentially the right call.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by thfuran on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:12AM (#21606877)
What's the expected value of not having your brand known for routinely canceling products without much notice? It seems like any company would have to be crazy to want to depend on any new Google service for anything important - and that's bad for Google.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by com2kid on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:23PM (#21607681)
90s and 00s Microsoft was successful in part because they were an incredibly stable platform to develop against.

10 year support goes a long way, and if you paid enough money you could email in your bugs and get custom hot fixes made for issues that annoyed you.

Even their /bad/ technologies had long term support. If you built on top of shiny new thing and Microsoft dropped it in the next release, it was still going to get patches, bug fixes, and the documentation for it wasn't going to vanish from the world as if it never existed.

Of course this was all before cloud services existed. Back then you'd pay for a product and you got software on a disk/CD and there was an expectation that it'd keep working.

One thing that gets overlooked so frequently, by all companies, is that ongoing costs are ongoing. Whenever I see a new fitness tracker kickstarter advertising amazing cloud services for free, my first thought is that the costs from cloud services will eventually exceed the tiny profit that comes from selling physical consumer hardware.

And a few years later another "It's been a great journey" message goes out as the company runs out of money.

Obviously Google won't run out of $, but costs do add up.

Doing the math on how to distribute funding to bundled cloud services is actually rather hard. You have to figure out for a given product / subscription, how much of that purchase price needs to be distributed to the various teams. That sort of attribution is not easy, and not properly allocating those funds to development resources can kill a product. e.g. someone buys a Chromebook, of course the OS team gets money, but the team making Google docs can argue they deserve a split, after all without them the Chromebooks would be somewhat useless. Analytics helps, but only to an extent.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by shadowgovt on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:41PM (#21608549)
You've hit the nail on the head.

Google doesn't run out of money; what Google runs out of is the things money can't buy in the short run, and at their scale that's employee hours and (surprisingly) compute and storage bandwidth (because they're building infrastructure at such volume that they end up saturating supplies and literally can't get more hardware at a reasonable price-point to run all the services they want to run).

Too much breadth of services cuts into how much load they can bear on services that are business-core or revenue-positive.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:43PM (#21611596)
Microsoft didn’t care about developers that was always a talking point. Microsoft maintained backwards compatibility because of a new operating system broke old code, companies wouldn’t upgrade and it made its money from operating systems.

Apple doesn’t care as much about backwards compatibility because it doesn’t really care if you upgrade your operating system - especially on the Mac - or stick with your old one until you buy a new computer. It doesn’t make money on operating system upgrades.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by com2kid on Saturday November 23, 2019 @07:27PM (#21617524)
> Microsoft didn’t care about developers that was always a talking point.

Microsoft put an insane amount of effort into documentation[1] and sample code. They ran developer training programs around the world and published an actual magazine.

They funded the writing and publishing of countless[2] books for developers. They still run Channel 9, where they produce/publish long and short form technical content.

If you wanted to develop for a platform in the 90s/early 2000s, Microsoft had the best documented platforms with an incredible amount of samples to learn from.

[1] Each product team targeted at developers had a dedicated, non-trivial in size, full time documentation team. On top of that Microsoft would hire 3rd party software companies to start using early versions of new APIs and write large scale sample apps using those APIs. I worked on one of these samples apps, it was a complete end to end ordering system for a furniture store that included everything from a tablet pc app for the sales staff to use inputting customer orders, syncing to a database in the warehouse to get the order loaded on a truck, and the delivery driver had an application running to get a signature on delivery of the order. Since this was pre-cellphones everywhere, the truck driver's laptop stored data offline and when brought back to the warehouse it synchronized itself with SQL server using some features new to SQL server at the time.

That was one of thousands of sample apps Microsoft made to show off its APIs. Compare this to the modern world where the cloud database provider billing you by the hour is going to throw out a couple basic hello world examples and that is about it.

[2] Technically countable but a very large #

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:11PM (#21618103)
If you wanted to develop for a platform in the 90s/early 2000s, Microsoft had the best documented platforms with an incredible amount of samples to learn from.

There were no other platforms seriously in contention in the mid 90s and early 2000s. There was Apple circling the drain and Unix vendors were all over the place.

In today’s world, if you are a major corporation that needs help you have all sorts of “partners” that will help you with your chosen platform, information on any API usage is all online.

In the classic MacOS days in the 80s and early 90s, Apple had the multivolume “Inside Macintosh” series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Macintosh

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by olivierduval on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:06PM (#21607492)
Yeah... for example, it's a problem for Google Stadia! Who wants to invests time and money in a platform that can be cancelled at any time?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by 0xEFF on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:40AM (#21607200)
> It seems like any company would have to be crazy to want to depend on any new Google service for anything important.

Companies depend heavily on AdWords, gSuite, and Cloud and all three continue to grow.

The reputation for canceling projects which aren't working may matter to consumers, but I haven't seen anyone in business mention it in their purchasing decisions.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by foobiekr on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:19PM (#21607631)
It might be your vantage point. For several companies I personally engage with this has absolutely been a point of discussion for Gsuite vs O365.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by chipotle_coyote on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:27PM (#21608391)
While I can believe that, there's an obvious distinction between GSuite and most of the services Google kills with abandon: businesses actually pay to use GSuite, which means that unlike Google Reader, Cloud Print, Inbox, and many others, it's a direct revenue generator and it's immensely popular. I don't know that that guarantees its continued existence, but I think it does offer a pretty serious shield.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by angry_octet on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:07AM (#21614457)
Then make me pay for Cloud Print. I'm already paying for Drive and GSuite, I think I can handle $1/year more.

Heck, add features like secure job release, integration with enterprise directory services, and services for brochure printing and online photo printing/albums. Document management and printing services is a huge industry.

Companies and universities hate doing printer driver and device management, and hence all the outsourcing of printers. But the outsourcing companies have to bolt an extra box on many printers to enable printing, or write special printer GUI firmware, makes it expensive. Could all be on your phone instead. Cf https://www.oki.com/ge/printing/services-and-solutions/smart...

https://www.office.xerox.com/software-solutions/xerox-workpl...

Once again, Google has screwed itself and it's users.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:28PM (#21607741)
Looking at adoption in the enterprise, it didn’t go much beyond a discussion....
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by koala_man on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:07PM (#21607513)
>any company would have to be crazy to want to depend on any new Google service for anything important

If the company has an equally good alternative available, chances are Google wouldn't have launched theirs in the first place.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by rudolph9 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:17AM (#21606922)
Do you use cloud print?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by privateSFacct on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:22AM (#21606988)
I have yes - at our office I just bought some cloud print enabled printers so that I could print without some quirks in the AD deployment and remotely. That said, I'm sure traction was low - I saw VERY few others using it. Still very annoying.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dasil003 on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:31AM (#21607100)
The more relevant question is: for a new service by Google for which you are a target market would you have any reluctance to use it based on your perceived likelihood that Google will kill in the future?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by kristianc on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:12PM (#21610674)
Based on them killing a service like Cloud Print? No.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by rmsaksida on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:14PM (#21607578)
I've never used Cloud Print, but I have used Reader and Hangouts that were shut down. The perception that Google has no commitment to their products is very strong and transfers to other areas. I'd rather use AWS or Azure than GCP, because I don't trust Google to continue their services offerings or API contracts.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dehrmann on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:49AM (#21607299)
> Engineers...could be invent[ing] new products that have some percentage chance of being much more profitable

Doubtful. The successful products to come out of Google are Search, GMail, and GCP. They bought Adwords, Doubleclick, Android, Youtube, and Nest and Fitbit, I suppose. GCP is their only recent win, but it's a me-too late entrant in a market Google should have invented.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by icebraining on Friday November 22, 2019 @05:40PM (#21610868)
I'm not sure it was profitable, but Orkut, at its peak, had 300 million users, and that purely a result of an experiment by an engineer.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Friday November 22, 2019 @06:50PM (#21611327)
You're forgetting Maps, Earth, Docs, Translate, Drive...

Also, many of the acquisitions you mention were tiny when bought, and Google has a much better track record of growing and improving them than, say, Yahoo.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:46PM (#21611614)
Growing and improving yes. Do any of those products help Google’s bottom line or to diversify where their profits come from?

I can see Docs with GSuite especially in education and maybe Drive.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dehrmann on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:53PM (#21612549)
Docs and Drive were also acquisitions. I'll give you Maps and Translate.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by r00fus on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:27PM (#21607730)
Is Nest profitable?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by dodobirdlord on Friday November 22, 2019 @10:54PM (#21612360)
> If someone did the math and said the expected value of "engineer working on new projects" was bigger than the expected value of of the the profits of an existing project divided by the number of engineers needed to maintain it, then it'd be logical to abandon a bunch of seemingly profitable products.

In case anyone is wondering, the math has been done. I have been told that Google even has an internal page devoted to informing engineers how much something has to be worth before it is worth their time, and it's a big number.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by mushufasa on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:57AM (#21607394)
What if they just sold their low-margin-yet-profitable businesses instead of killing them?

There are several tech PE firms that specialize in that niche. KKR bought Corel (of WordPerfect fame) recently.

I'm also confident someone at Google already had this obvious idea. Any ex-googlers know why they chose not to / cannot do this?

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:25PM (#21608377)
The only reason that Google can throw stuff against the wall and scale it immediately is because they have the infrastructure in place.

I can’t imagine you can decouple Googke’s products from their infrastructure.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by angry_octet on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:11AM (#21614482)
Picassa? Could have open sourced it. There are a few others in the graveyard that were easily able to live on any infrastructure.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by scarface74 on Saturday November 23, 2019 @12:17PM (#21615173)
How do you know how much of Picasa’s code was intertwined with Google’s? Could it have been a profitable in going concern by itself? How?
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by angry_octet on Saturday November 23, 2019 @05:13PM (#21616972)
It's traditional software, it runs offline, client side. Which is great for low bandwidth places and the privacy concious. It has some basic ML for face recog. The money is in photo printing, which is a pretty big industry which Google has failed to capture any of.

It had a huge installed base, but of course Google would not sell user engagement in bulk, only in tiny pieces as ads. Advertising the things people take photos of is pretty straightforward too, another reason why Google killed Picasa instead of letting it free.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by thfuran on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:15PM (#21607600)
I strongly suspect that it would generally be a massive undertaking to decouple products from their internal ecosystem and render them able to be spun off.
Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by Mindwipe on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:38PM (#21607848)
They did it with Sketchup I guess.

But that was also an acquisition, so I guess it lifted out of Google's infrastructure more easily.

Re:Google Kills Cloud Print by gowld on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:55AM (#21607377)
What makes you think it's being killed because it's expensive?