But because it is a Tesla you are dismissing all the issues and sell it as the best car ever. This wouldn't fly with any other car. If you spent 50k$ on a Audi with poor quality you would probably complain about it.
It is a pattern I see with nearly all the other TM3 owners that dismiss every single issue.
Really trying to understand but what is so different with a Tesla? Is it the Hype factor? The feeling to be in a religious group?
Add to the above the following positives, and you can get an idea why model 3 owners might be ok dealing with a few negatives.
self driving features, ota updates, top safety ratings, pre-cool/heat interior (and now defrost with v10) from app, regenerative braking for one pedal driving, brake pads last longer, low maint costs, lowering overall tco
- Buying experience is so much more pleasant - set price and no pressure
- Service experience has been great - much better than Ford or Mercedes. Mercedes is good, but every time we take it in they want a small fortune for this or that - you really get the sense that it's a profit center, whereas Tesla is not like this
- No more gas stations - full charge every day, and superchargers make trips and range anxiety a non-issue (owned a Ford EV previously and it sucked in this regard), and overall electricity costs are much lower than gas
- We both love the user interface - as easy and intuitive as an iPad. I don't miss the buttons, and it's so much easier to use than the Mercedes or Ford infotainment systems - and integrated connectivity and OTA updates are superior to those systems as well.
- Fast and fun to drive - handles well
- Lots of room for trips - frunk, trunk, rear facing seats - the P85+ is a great family car - we've done road trips with 4 kids, dog and luggage no problem
- I like the styling - P85+ with chrome delete and 21s looks really great
- Less environmental impact - I support Tesla's mission and enjoy doing a small part to combat global warming and advance EV adoption
- I enjoy the gimmicky stuff - games, whoopee cushion
- Much less maintenance (except for the darn 21" tires), no oil changes, and over the lifespan of the car I believe maintenance costs will be much lower
I will say that build quality is subpar - the Mercedes is notably better in this regard - very nice. Additionally, I don't trust autopilot for anything but long road trips (it's excellent for that), it's tried to kill me too many times - I think the marketing hype is way ahead of actual capabilities.
What about in heavy traffic situations? Is autopilot practical for that? I tried to get the driver assistant package (adaptive cruise and lane keeping) for my bmw x4 3 years ago. It was being marketed as good for stop & go situations. But when I talked to the rep, he strongly recommended against it, saying the tech is all right but most drivers would not bother using it. I guess the same can be said about auto parking.
It’s the difference between stress and elevated heart rate from the stop and go, versus literally peace and relaxation, while you car avoids all the ridiculous crap that goes on around you while everyone else is on their damn phones.
You look out the window and watch the cars around you driving like absolute garbage, and Tesla keeps you in lane and following appropriately behind the car in front.
It’s about 500ms slow to start from a stop, IMO, once the lead car starts moving. I’ve heard from early access v10 drivers that it’s quicker to start moving again in the latest version. I’ll wait to see that for myself, as placebo effect can be strong.
It’s a weird phenomenon. I’m getting home at exactly the same speed, but because I’m not actuating the accelerator, brakes, or steering and just monitoring the higher order situation, suddenly the traffic just doesn’t fucking matter once AutoPilot is turned on.
With more time to focus on the alertness and driving patterns of the people around you (instead of lanekeeping) you do notice just awful, awful driving practices of everyone around you.
It's really not that we're dismissing issues. I think it's just that these cars get so much right and just have a different philosophy about how cars should work that the little things that annoy people tend to stick out for them a lot.
I have driven lots of luxury cars, owned BMWs, and am a pretty big technophile. There is not a question in my mind that the Teslas are the best cars I've ever owned or had to pleasure of driving. It sounds like the parent that you're claiming we'd be like if it was any other car is upset about the car he was hoping he'd eventually get as opposed to the car he actually got. I don't think any other car, regardless of price, ever gets any better or changes after you buy it. That alone makes the statement a little ridiculous, in my mind.
Tesla is the opposite of Linux philosophy.
Tldr; I drive a fleet of hacked cars on the road daily. Its fine.
It literally records and reports back to HQ. If you ever make any statement that Tesla doesn't like, they will use what should be your own data against you.
Surveillance capitalism. Ownership as a service.
They also restrict the repairability via software.
It's as far from gnu as its possible to be.
Wow. Take out the tinfoil hat Sir. I'll PayPal you $1000USD if you can cite this ridiculous claim.
> They also restrict the repairability via software.
You CAN perform repairs on them, you can even access the parts catalog (https://epc.teslamotors.com) for free when most manufacturers charge for this or even restrict it to dealers only. Need a part? Just call up a service center!
Many people have also refurbished Tesla battery packs and even rebuilt salvaged cars: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/my-first-model-3-reb...
> Wow. Take out the tinfoil hat Sir. I'll PayPal you $1000USD if you can cite this ridiculous claim.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/03/the-custo...
https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-... about this ridiculously detailed releasing of data https://www.tesla.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive
https://electrek.co/2016/05/11/tesla-model-s-crashed-own-sum...
or Teslas own privacy policy, which says that they may remotely collect telematics data including speed, odmeter, battery charging, use of charging stations (linked to location), infotainment system data, camera images, short video clips, lock/unlock data, horn honking, etc. They also collect detailed position data in many cases, but say that they store it in a non identifiable way. While the policy doesn't specifically mention recording torque applied to the steering wheel, presumably they must include that somewhere, as they have announced to the press that the user didn't have their hands on the steering wheel. The policy also says that they "also may use information we collect for other purposes, including: For our business purposes", a vague and expansive definition. We've seen in the examples above what they consider this to include - disputing customers accounts of what happened if it makes Tesla look bad.
https://www.tesla.com/about/legal
I presume your offer of payment was hyperbole, but in my view, even if you disagree with the links I posted, I have certainly cited the claim. Email [email protected] if you actually intend to back up your words.
These customers almost always sue, but thankfully the U.S. justice system favors factual information.
A prime example of this was the recently released NTSB data on the Model S driver that crashed on the back of a Firetruck. The media had a field day and sensationalized the story and the owner tried to blame autopilot.
But the NTSB report noted that not only did he had his hands off the wheel he was also having breakfast!:
“I was having a coffee and a bagel. And all I remember, that truck, and then I just saw the boom in my face and that was it,” the driver told NTSB investigators."
Source: https://www.culvercityobserver.com/story/2019/09/05/news/nts...
NTSB Safety Report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HA...
The report states that probable cause was the Tesla driver’s lack of response and inattention and the driver’s use of the system in ways inconsistent with guidance and warnings from the manufacturer.
So tell me, how can Tesla defend itself from such customers who abuse and misuse these 2 ton machines? I'm curious on what you think is the best approach to solve this "he said/she said" problem by not using factual and irrefutable data.
If you are really trying to understand, why don't you test drive one? Only then will you truly know. Having owned a Model S (traded it in for a Model 3) and X.
There is no way I will buy any other car. Maybe if MB, BMW or Audi leapfrogs Tesla in both charging infrastructure and software features. But frankly with the velocity of how quickly Tesla releases new features for FREE, I'm not holding my breath.
I think this is the wrong perspective. Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, and others are investing in common charging infrastructure through joint ventures such as Ionity (https://ionity.eu/en/about.html). Ionity is available to all EVs that can charge via CCS (which includes Teslas).
ICE cars can be fueled at any fuel station regardless of their make and model. EVs should also be able to charge at any charging station regardless of the brand.
Tesla says its mission is to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". If that's true then when will Tesla convert their fast chargers to CCS and allow all EVs to charge at them?
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supe...
They open it up and hope other people will adopt it with the goal of profiting Apple that still controls the specs.
In addition they can also claim that other players are bad players because they didn't use the "open" specs.
That's not how it should work. Other EV makers are doing this correctly with an open consortium. A single brand (Tesla) shouldn't dictate what standards to use.
The CCS consortium (composed of mainly GM and german manufacturers) is also not without fault... They completely ignored the already established CHAdeMO standard, because it's developed by five major Japanese automakers. But it seems that Tesla gets all the flak, when the reality is the whole industry do not wan't to hash it out.
Yes. Tesla tried to set a standard and they failed. The industry did not adopt it. It's time to move on to CCS.
> Tesla has already deployed and invested on many supercharger stations.
That's not an issue. Tesla doesn't need to start from zero. They can retrofit the chargers for CCS without too much trouble.
Care to elaborate?
> They can retrofit the chargers for CCS without too much trouble.
Do you have experience running a business? That's easy for someone watching from the sidelines to say. But the reality is that something like this have financial and logistical hurdles.
As of Sept this year, there are currently 14,081 individual Supercharger stalls at 1,604 locations worldwide.
Retrofitting all of those is hardly "without too much trouble". That's a fact.
No, the fact is they've already done exactly that in Europe: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-charge-ccs...
But Tesla is still not allowing other EVs to charge at their chargers.
Tesla only needs to do three things to move to CCS properly: 1. Put a CCS plug on the charger. 2. Implement the CCS protocol. 3. Allow all EVs to charge at the charger.
Easy peasy and civic-minded. There are no downsides here.
CCS charging providers allow Teslas to charge on their networks today. When will Tesla reciprocate and convert to CCS?
> No one else will adopt Tesla's standard.
Why won't they? They don't have to pay any licensing fees and would save $$ on R&D.
> CCS charging providers allow Teslas to charge on their networks today.
Because Tesla have chosen to adapt it or at least provide Tesla owners an adaptor for CCS/ChadeMo. Why can't others do the same for the SuperCharger network? Give me a good reason why.
> When will Tesla reciprocate and convert to CCS?
Let me just phone a Tesla VP and ask. /s Are you seriously asking this?
It's fine for Tesla's to use adapters, but it would be better to just accept the reality that the timing didn't work out and join the group rather than waiting for the group to change (which at this point won't ever happen).
Because they've standardized on CCS. Tesla tried to set a standard and it failed. It's time to switch to the standard.
The European Tesla Model 3 comes with a CCS type 2 combo port, so there's no technical impediment to implementing CCS.
> Why can't others do the same for the SuperCharger network?
More adapters we don't need. Everyone else is CCS, why isn't Tesla? Why should everyone manufacture and carry around adapters when it's much easier for Tesla to just switch its superchargers to CCS.
> Are you seriously asking this?
Yes. If Tesla genuinely wants to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport" then it's time to get onboard with a common charging standard.
In EU maybe. Tesla Superchargers are more prevalent in the North America. The real reason nobody wanted to adopt the Tesla network is because CCS is a standard created by competitors (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen) its bad optics for them if they do.
Also, have you experienced charging on a Tesla Supercharger compared to CCS stations? It's a night and day difference... No sane person would choose CCS:
Tesla: I just tap my charge port to open it and plug the connector. DONE. My credit card that's linked to my account is billed.
CCS: Take out my wallet, use a card or RFID, decipher the menu, press some buttons and only then can I start charging.
If you need instructions like the picture below, you already failed in usability:
Add Hyundai to the list: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-ionity-electr...
The reasons for CCS are irrelevant. The practical reality is CCS is the standard now. It's time for Tesla to get in the boat and row.
> Tesla: I just tap my charge port to open it and plug the connector. DONE. My credit card that's linked to my account is billed.
The Mercedes Me account works the same way across CCS charging networks for the Mercedes EQC.
Electrify America, ChargePoint, and EVgo have roaming agreements to allow the one account to be billed across all networks: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch...
When will Tesla start being a team player?
Why don't you let people buy what they please with their hard earned money?
I own a P100D and the magic wore off for me. Apparently it hasn't for you.
Peace.
Huh? how so, can you provide examples?
> I own a P100D and the magic wore off for me. Apparently it hasn't for you.
It certainly hasn't, to the point that we got rid all of our gas vehicles for a 3/X (Owned an S since 2015). Also, four of our neighbors also randomly rang our doorbell in the last 6 months asking about the cars. An underrated feature of these cars is safety, I can't put a price on that.
I showed them the features, gave them test drives and told them my honest opinion and experience. A few weeks later, they all ended up buying one.
There's probably some issues but none that I care about. It feels like driving the future. It's an absolute joy to drive.
No gas stations is pretty nice too.
See, this worries me. Almost all of the Model 3 owners I know tell me that not supporting bluetooth features isn't a big deal because they can safely use their phone while driving. This is completely false. When I last drove in a friend's Model 3 he had to make several manual corrections while using auto pilot on California highways; it's still not good enough for people to be messing with their phone while driving.
Please, don't use your phone while driving.
Other than performance and range they haven't hit on ANY of the high order bits.
Also Teslas are the safest cars. Not sure what you're talking about
You would be injured or killed if you tried taking an unmonitored trip of any reasonable length - ON THE HIGHWAY - in either, with autopilot on and with the nag disabled using a weight. If you think you don't have to routinely make manual corrections to save yourself from dying I think you are either lying or delusional.
> If you think you don't have to routinely make manual corrections to save yourself from dying I think you are either lying or delusional.
What makes you think owners are not aware of this? Try asking that question on the /r/rteslamotors subreddit and you'll see that owners will quickly educate you and tell you to keep your eyes on the road.
You also get a visual warning to do so, whenever you engage Autopilot.
They said their car drives itself every day. "Drives itself" means that the car does all of the work of driving without requiring human intervention or involvement. And that technology, of course, does not exist in any car at the moment.
What else could "drives itself" possibly mean?
In other words being on your phone isn't a big deal because you'll be safe. But those other people you might hit? What about them? Do you have any care in that direction?
If so, it’s constantly disengaging to the point it seems unusable. This is not anywhere remotely 95% of what AutoPilot does.
Look at Autonomous Day presentations on things like cut-in detection and lane changes. Look at what the active accident avoidance technology accomplishes in the real world. The Toyota system is not even trying to do any of that.
Hi. Safe following distance is the distance required to safely stop at whatever speed you are going. At a typical speed of 90km/hr (that's usually when this "feature" gets engaged - slowing me to 10km/hr under the limit because that's what someone in front of me is doing), the safe stopping distance is around 80-90 meters (perception+braking in good conditions). The shortest follow distance setting I seemed able to find was around double this distance.
tl;dr: I do not find that the adaptive cruise control is engaged at a safe following distance. Indeed, I think it makes me less safe as a driver, because it slows me down arbitrarily without any visual or auditory notification.
So either (a) the car you drove was defective or (b) you are radically misjudging your following distance. I know you are inclined to assume the former, but keep in mind that humans are terrible at judging distances when moving at high speeds, and most people leave way too little space between them and the car in front of them.
(While I haven't driven a Toyota Corolla with adaptive cruise control, I have driven a Subaru Forester, which uses roughly the same following distance; I find it to be a little closer than I'd prefer on my own, but accept it for the convenience and because I assume it can get away with a shorter following distance, since it is not reliant on human reflexes to stop in an emergency.)
Not that this is even a problem in the fist place, I've used dozens of cars with ACC, no Toyota in particular though, and all of them allow adjusting within almost armreach close to a long 5sec gap. Put closer distance in heavy traffic to prevent lane jumping in front of you and 5 sec for comfortable highway cruising.
* All Acura models
* All Audi models
* BMW 5/6/7/X3/X4
* Cadillac CT6
* Ford Edge
* All Honda models (mostly at higher speed)
* ... and so on.
Source: https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-self-driving-f...
This notion, particularly among Tesla owners, that active lane centering and steering is a Tesla exclusive, is at times wilfully blindered, to the obnoxious.
The last time I went through this was with a Tesla owner who swore that every other car's Blind Spot monitoring sucked, because "only Tesla paid attention to the speed of the car in the blind spot", which is... false. Even my 2015 A4 had adaptive blind spot monitoring.
Most to all mid to high end vehicles have all this stuff. Tesla isn't miraculous in automotive technology. Which isn't to say they haven't done great things. But even reading this list... ugh. Was the ability to watch Netflix or sing "Car-aoke" the most demanded of new features for Tesla owners?
Autopilot is more than just "active lane centering and steering" (known as LKAS) Autopilot is a combination of a lot of things (TACC + Autosteer + Auto Lane Change + Auto Lane Keep + NOA etc...)
Autosteer is also way ahead of everything else out there right now. The competition is mainly just TACC and basic LKAS.
For example, I am yet to see so other cars perform in conditions like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d32eo3/autopil...
> Most to all mid to high end vehicles have all this stuff
Yeah mostly an extra option and costs $$$. Basic autopilot and a ton of safety features are FREE on Tesla. It's actually pathetic how other car manufacturers charge for advanced safety features.
Yes, it is. The parent just made a dismissive, " Does it steer and lane center in general, besides when you drift out of lane?", implying that other cars don't.
Other cars also have other features beyond LKAS, too. That's just the focus of this article.
> For example, I am yet to see so other cars perform in conditions like this:
"Removed because there's no way to verify it was actually autopilot performing the maneuver. We are going to make a rule where future dashcam autopilot vids will be removed."
> Yeah mostly an extra option and costs $$$. Basic autopilot and a ton of safety features are FREE on Tesla.
And basic intelligent services and safety are free/standard on most new cars too. While advanced features might cost money, so too does advanced autopilot on a Tesla too, so let's not act like there's that much of a difference. What are some of these "basic safety features" that are free on a Tesla that "other manufacturers [pathetically] charge for"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d3yx03/round_2...
The question was genuine, not dismissive, as I haven't heard of many autosteer systems in production cars. There are a handful AFAIK.
That said, I would probably trade it in for a Model S 7-seater if it did cost the same here :)
And the nag / inability to sense the presence of hands on wheel... to put it mildly, I would pay a lot of money to revert my AP software.
Maybe you can give me examples of other cheaper cars that might have some of the same things I like. But I am pretty happy with my purchase. Do I think I am in some kind of religious group? I don't think so, but may be I am wrong.
This all feels like reactions I hear when I tell tech bros that I like Apple products. It just feels like people take this shit really seriously.
Right now, in the UK, the Tesla Model 3 is the only option that (i) is 100% electric, (ii) can go from e.g. London to Edinburgh with one charge stop, and (iii) can fit in a standard UK size garage. There are simply no other cars available in the UK at the moment that meet these 3 basic requirements. There are others coming close, e.g. the Jaguar iPace, and some due soon that might meet them fully, e.g. the Volkswagen ID.3 due next year, but right now if these are your requirements you have no other choice. That makes it pretty different, in fact unique. To use the Apple analogy, it would be like if the iPhone was the only smartphone that could last a day without recharging and fit in your pocket, so if you had one (and also believed that one day everyone with feature phones would replace them with smartphones that could fit in your pocket) then that might make you feel ahead of the curve, and you might even be more forgiving if basic functionality like copy and paste wasn't yet available.
I drove one for a couple days. It is a nice experience but a very early product that is far from perfect and the finish was what I would have expected for a cheap Toyota.
Because that seems to be the consensus among us owners who give test drives during Tesla meetups. Also add neighbors to the mix who ask about the cars.
I now referred 6 people this way. Not once in 34 years have I had given test drives in my previous (mostly german) cars or other people become curious enough to knock on my door.
Surely, there's something interesting going on here isn't there?
And they probably would if the sales volumes and customer upgrade timeframes were anywhere NEAR what they were for phones and tablets.
100% of Tesla 3 owners would get an "S" if only they could afford it.
Nobody wants to look like they pissed their money away so popular expensive stuff gets the benefit of the doubt whether it deserves it or not. For example:
When your Tesla has a shitty interface it's your fault for being too dumb to use it right. When your BMW makes you go through one too many menus to change the GPS routing preferences it's the Germans over-complicating things.
When your S10 snaps in half it's a piece of shit. When your Tacoma snaps in half it's the government's fault for salting the road
When you break a Harbor Freight wrench the wrench sucks. When you break a Snap On you were abusing it.
When the server misunderstands what you said at a 5-star restaurant its your fault for not being clear. When the server at the burger joint does it they're an idiot.
When something is spilled at Whole Foods they haven't cleaned it up yet. When something is spilled at Walmart it's because the store is a dump.
When someone breaks into your car in SF it's because they need to feed their family. When someone's breaks into your car in Buffalo it's because Buffalo is too dysfunctional to control crime.
I'm generalizing a bit here with these examples but you get the point.
I have a model y on order, but if they can't figure out infotainment soon I'll likely cancel it. I spend way too much time driving to deal with garbage infotainment.
If for some reason I'm not driving and I'm still sitting in the car, I'm probably on a conference call.
Best car I've ever owned by a lot.
People sure do get mad about Blutooth.
Also, at least they're able to have a 'software direction'. Not aware of any other manufacturer who provides anywhere near this level of OTA upgrades.
And obviously the autopilot team is a different one than the people installing games. Chill.