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Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by shortformblog on Monday August 19, 2019 @01:52PM (#20740011)
Encarta is a great example of Microsoft winning a market, and after it was defeated, letting it fade out. Wikipedia in some ways beat it, but the interactivity elements of Encarta make it something that you kind of wish had a more direct role in the modern day.

I wrote about this topic a few years ago (https://tedium.co/2017/07/13/who-killed-the-encyclopedia/), and it led a former CEO of Encyclopaedia Britannica to speak up (I added some of his comments to the piece). There was a lot of back-room wheeling and dealing around digital encyclopedias during that era, much of it centered around Encarta—Microsoft acquired a lot of publishers during that period and it effectively disrupted most of the rest out of existence.

But even considering that, Encarta was special. I think Microsoft had the right idea—it was the killer app for CD-ROMs—though it turned out that the internet would only make it a temporary success story.

It didn’t have to be like that, honestly. Imagine what might have happened if, for example, Microsoft worked more closely with the Wikimedia Foundation on the highly visual treatments the company was known for with Encarta. The nonprofit ownership was a good move, but the fact that MS seemed to cede the market entirely, especially so soon after disrupting the whole thing, was unfortunate.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by nickthegreek on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:29PM (#20740365)
I remember getting Encarta 95 back when it first came out (I was 14 at the time) and the interactive elements and audio clips blew my mind. It changed how I thought about information and got me that much more invested in learning technology.

Literally a week after getting Encarta a door to door encyclopedia salesmen came to our house and I showed him why I did not need his books. You could see the look of terror in his eyes.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by echelon on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:57PM (#20740658)
> a door to door encyclopedia salesmen came to our house

That's an alien relic of an anecdote as there ever was.

The world has profoundly changed in the last twenty five years. Cheap, ubiquitous, networked computing has almost completely rewired society and changed business, jobs, dating, friendship, travel.

I really wonder what the next big changes will be. Cheap satellites in orbit and dramatically reduced LEO costs? Better battery tech? Advances in materials science? Human cloning and genetic modification? What modern trappings of the present time will feel used and dated in twenty years?

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kragen on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:06PM (#20741828)
I think this may be a bit of an exaggeration. It's true that people socialize more in the subway than they used to, now that they can send WhatsApp audio messages to their friends instead of reading a novel. But the grocery store half a block away still sells food in much the same way they did in 1994. Bigots still yell at me on the street to go back to my own country. Most of the workforce is still employed rather than gigging, financially independent, consulting, or riding the purple wage. International money transfers still take a significant percentage, unless you use Bitcoin, which most people still don't accept. Elections are still being won by polarizing populists who promise paradise and then pick your pockets; here in Argentina, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner even kept the records of her illegal wiretaps in paper form in the secret vault under her house, facilitating access to them against her will by the police. (And that didn't stop her from getting re-elected last week; her opponent also has a history of illegal wiretaps.)

You'd think that universal access to all human knowledge would have remade society, but actually most of the humans don't really seem to care about knowledge. We got the Arab Spring, which turned into Daesh, the Syrian Civil War, and a new military dictatorship in Egypt. (And we got anti-vaxxers, global warming denialists, and "jet fuel can't melt steel beams.") Wikileaks didn't really move the needle on Obama's re-election. If cheap, ubiquitous, networked computing is rewiring the power structures of society, that's more because of Russian trolls and Twitter bots than anything else.

Probably the changes you're talking about will come. But I'm not convinced that it's a revolution that cute girls on the bus give me their Instagram instead of their phone number.

(See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20741592 for my thoughts on other, more positive possibilities of modern informatics.)

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by tern on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:04PM (#20743501)
For the ~95th–99th percentile wealth class, the world has changed considerably. For instance, I can travel anywhere in the world and find a place to stay within an hour, and do so frequently. As a business owner, I can find an international market for my product in a matter of months. I can get anywhere I need to without owning a car. I can maintain a high salary while living in a remote location, of traveling.

For the majority of people, however, things have changed little.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by saagarjha on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:42AM (#20744369)
> I can travel anywhere in the world and find a place to stay within an hour, and do so frequently

Could you not do this before? Just book a plane ticket at the airline desk and ask for an empty room once you arrive at a hotel?

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kragen on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @08:18AM (#20746031)
Yeah, I thought about saying that, but then I realized maybe the dude is talking about rural Tajikistan or something where there were and are no hotels, and I didn't want to be argumentative. (I imagine in rural Tajikistan random people would be delighted to offer you their hospitality, though.) I did travel around Costa Rica in 2003, and I never needed more than an hour to find a place to stay on arriving in a new town, even though internet access was scarce. So I'm not sure what the guy is talking about there.

The other things he said are mostly true. Here in Buenos Aires I've never owned a car, but that has more to do with being a huge megalopolis than anything else.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by DrAwdeOccarim on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:32AM (#20745346)
...yea. Weird. But now once you get their you can video conference call with a loved one for cheap, which in a sense takes some of the magic out of traveling as you're never really that much farther away than if you had gone to the grocery store.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by saiya-jin on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:23AM (#20745635)
You can always leave the phone at home, or simply turn it off till some emergency comes and then immediately turn it off again.

It might sound pretty awkward these days of pathetic instagram 'celebrities', but actually makes things like backpacking in the middle of nowhere much, much better experience. The magic is still out there

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by vonseel on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:02AM (#20744457)
I don’t know, I’d say for the majority of people who aren’t so narrowly focused on conspiracy theories and political power struggles, life looks way different than it did 30 years ago.

Even in poor countries Facebook and cheap instant communication like WhatsApp have rewired the way people socialize and stay in touch.

This is mostly a response to the commenter before you, except your last sentence.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kragen on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @08:22AM (#20746072)
Well, I did mention people socializing via WhatsApp and Instagram. I think we just differ on what counts as “narrow” versus wide focus.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by simonh on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @10:37AM (#20747466)
Life for ordinary Britons has changed enormously in my lifetime. In my youth it was unusual for someone to holiday abroad, now it's routine.

A budget flight to the continent and a week in an AirBnB in Europe can cost as little as a few hundred quid. Something that was only really available to the rich, or at least the very well off, is now available to almost anyone.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kragen on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @11:12AM (#20747852)
Ordinary Britons may not be in the 95th to 99th percentile wealth class, but they're in the 90th to 99th percentile. But I don't think that what you're talking about is a question of technology, much less of the internet — it's a matter of deregulation and political alignment, something that is coming to an end with Brexit. Aviation technology advanced in leaps and bounds from the 1890s to the 1960s and has only improved incrementally since 1970. (And of course we no longer have Concorde at any price.)
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by simonh on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:46PM (#20749045)
If we're talking outside the western world, things have changed far more dramatically. Across the developing world, hundreds of millions of people have risen out of abject poverty. My wife grew up in China, in a house her father built from a pile of bricks provided by his employer. She helped make their floor tiles, and this was in an industrial city. China's a different world now, and while they are the poster child, this trend isn't isolated to them. The chart linked below is astounding.

https://rwer.wordpress.com/2018/04/22/global-income-distribu...

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kragen on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:58PM (#20749891)
Is this because of the internet?
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by riffraff on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:56PM (#20742521)
> International money transfers still take a significant percentage

Some do, but I can get dollars from the US into most European currencies for less than .5%.

We've come a long way from the '90s.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kragen on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:11PM (#20742583)
Oh, that's a good point — also it's a lot easier to convert Italian currency to French, German, or Dutch currency now, since they're all the same currency. I think that may be more a question of what the current political alignment is rather than the internet rewiring world society, though.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by ribalda on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:59AM (#20744722)
May I ask what platform do you use?
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by riffraff on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @08:33AM (#20746165)
I use transferwise' borderless account, I believe their fee varies, but I am sure I used TW to transfer less than $10K to EUR for a fee of 0.38%. It now says[0] it's $4.48 to convert 1000$. Changing $1000 to HUF has $4.98 in fees. Both were lower a couple months ago.

Revolut will also allow you to move 5K GBP per month without any fees[1].

[0] https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/pricing#conversion_fe... [1] https://www.revolut.com/legal/fees/#exchange

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by Liquid_Fire on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:39AM (#20744879)
(Not OP) TransferWise tends to have a pretty good rate (usually sub 1%), though you would have to transfer a considerable amount of money in one go to get it down to 0.5%.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by AJ007 on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:34PM (#20741011)
In Encarta’s case, cheap, high density storage mediums were passed by something that already existed and had existed for quite some time before, the internet. In other regards maybe the storage medium was just a side detail and the important part was what could be done with that data thanks to faster computers.

There might be some parallels here today with machine learning. Neal Stephenson's quote about the future already being here but not being evenly distributed seems appropriate.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dredmorbius on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:01PM (#20741795)
As Encarta was being developed (~1991 per another comment here), the Internet was still highly nascent. I was at uni during this period, and a major bragging right of the campus I was on was dedicated high-speed network connections to other schools within the university system ... over 56K leased lines. Those were shared amongst the 100k+ student, faculty, and staff population (though a very small fraction of those used it).

The takeaways I get of this:

1. Exponentially-developing technology can pass you by quickly. The Internet went from exceedingly obscure to global in the ten years of the 1990s. Broadband wasn't ubiquitous by 1999, but it was increasingly available.

2. Standards matter. Even constructing a workstation that could handle reading Encarta was a challenge, and the tools to compose, render, and especially, present multimedia content (images, audio, video) were not common. Microsoft went the closed-source proprietary route, dooming them to the dustbin (though pieces were salvaged).

3. Standards are hard. Re-read above.

4. There are thresholds of utility that make or break things. I've been around infotech long enough (somewhat pre-dating the periods discussed here) that I've seen numerous technologies go from extreme cutting edge to widely adopted to passe. (And quite a few proposed but never gaining critical mass.) The reasons why any given tech fails right now are numerous. Luck plays a major role.

The present has exceptionally cheap bulk storage (my tablet has a 128GB removable microSD card for about $50), high-speed, ubiquitous, and wireless networking, and tools for sharding and distributing updated documents and file formats (git, rysnc, etc.). This makes distributed updatable large-scale works possible.

The technology of written works has undergone several seismic shifts, from clay tablet to papayrus roll to codex to moveable type. Less well-known (but only slightly) are the updatable formats: loose-leaf, three-ring, and replaceable bindings, all introduced in the late 19th century, which enabled updatable works. These were true "periodicals", where sections could be updated with amendments or replacements as information changed.

The database, digital file, early version control, Wiki, and distributed version control are, IMO, all legitimately novel forms of written works, which should be recognised as such. They have and will continue to change how content is created and used, and affects and interacts with society.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by scarface74 on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:13PM (#20742853)
The Internet went from exceedingly obscure to global in the ten years of the 1990s.

This reminds me of the infamous Today show segment circa 1994.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95-yZ-31j9A

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by vonseel on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:07AM (#20744476)
Makes you wonder, will there ever be a replacement for the Internet?

What would that look like? An incompatible sister network that offers something the existing internet does not offer? A new network created after major disasters and world wide nuclear war destroy all existing infrastructure? I can’t imagine the existing internet would ever be replaced, certainly not by something offering privacy like ToR, because not enough people really care about privacy. The average person doesn’t really give a damn.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by Crinus on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:16AM (#20745025)
Chances are, just like modern internet took advantage of old communication technology (telephone wires) to spread, the "next" internet will take advantage of the "current" one.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by unilynx on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:52PM (#20750579)
It's already happening with new protocols not running on their own TCP port, but being 'tunneled' over HTTPS on port 443 (eg DNS over HTTPS).

At some point we can optimize away the IP and TCP layers.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @12:48PM (#20758984)
Interesting question.

"Replacement in what sense?" probably deserves exploration.

The underlying fundamental concepts of the Internet are 1) packet-switched (as opposed to through-circuit) communications, and inter-connected networks, via BGP.

There's a lot that's layered on top of this which is seen as fundamental, but is not entirely so, most especially end-to-end connectivity and universal point-to-point access. The Internet formed under tremendously different conditions than exist today, with only a handful of nodes through 1980, and even as late as the late 1980s only a few thousands.

Roughly each order-of-magnitude increases since then seem to have come with its own set of additional headaches and concerns, mostly regarding management and mitigation of abuse. The idea of guarded borders has long been seen as anathema. I see it as all but inevitable, and the question is whether that's done well or poorly.

There are a number of earlier networking ideas which might resurface or be adapted for new use, and a survey of history might be useful here. (John S. Quarterman's The Matrix, 1990, is a fascinating time-capsule exploration of these just at the cusp of the modern Internet -- the World Wide Web does not even make mention, though "The Web, a national Canadian nonprofit conferencing system formed in 1987, does.

I'd also look at uses of the Internet and user needs.

Fundamentally, digital networks serve as communications and control media. Whether or not these need to (or can be) segregated is an open question, but splitting off, say, the IoT from other communications, might make sense, along with SCADA and military communications -- all largely control networks.

Splitting out video and voice from text and data, likewise. Much of high-demand comes from those.

As the Internet heads from the first billion or two users to the remaining five or so, questions of what technology, interfaces, and devices are appropriate for a set of digital newcomers may be worth consideration.

Or, looking at this differently: the degree to which those already here may be interested in maintaining a separate space for themselves. Not that this is necessarily equitable, but it may well prove to be attractive, say, in particular to minimise fraud and other malicious use or attacks originating from the global poor, who are in many ways justified in wanting some of the pie that's been denied to, or taken from, them.

How the needs, wants, attractions, and/or detractors or aversions affect technology development and adoption remains to be seen.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by jqcoffey on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:25PM (#20752834)
> Makes you wonder, will there ever be a replacement for the Internet?

Google. Circa 2030.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by JimOk on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:18PM (#20742334)
I think the phase that usurped Ecarta's position had more to do with good quality web search and to a lesser extent the crowdsourcing model of Wikipedia (run by a foundation rather than a for profit mega corporation) than to content or data standards.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dredmorbius on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:41PM (#20742453)
Search within an encyclopedia (e.g., Wikipedia) doesn't rely on Web search generally (e.g., DDG).

I can see your point that content outside a curated context replaces an encyclopedia to an extent, and up until about 5-10 years ago, as clickbait and black-hat SEO finally won out, much noncommercial Web content was at least informative, if of generally lower quality than traditional printed sources. Convenience has a huge edge over quality, though. These days, it's Wikipedia's curated content, especially for complex breaking news stories, that is my first go-to. After Idleword's (Maciej Cezglowski's) piece on Hong Kong hit HN last week, I finally took a look at Wikipedia's article on the protests there. A full 73 page long article with references on a protest movement only a couple of months old. That's staggering, and exceeds all but the very best news sources. (Another case I'd noted was the Oroville Dam case, where Brad Plumer's article for Vox was the only trad med piece I could find even remotely approaching Wikipedia's article. The first instance of this I recall was the 2004 Boxing Day quake/tsunami in Indonesia / Indian Ocean.)

Wikipedia, on the other hand, greatly enhances Web search, though it also benefits generally from the high profile resulting from that.

Wikipedia's crowdsourcing, the reliance on underlying technologies (Wiki, HTML, mediawiki markup), and on a huge set of organisational systems, standards, practices, and solutions Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation have arrived at, were transformational. Though those too strongly resemble the largely equivalent or analogous practices of earlier encyclopaedic efforts dating back to at least Diderot, as well as other reference works (OED, see Simon Winchester's The Professor and the Madman).

(Note: updated to add 2nd 'graph beginning "I can see your point...")

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by JimOk on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:45PM (#20742467)
The arrival of good internet search along with the ever increasing pool of web content doomed a curated content approach such as was used by Encarta (which could never aspire to be as broad or deep as the web). I can tell you, based on watching sales figures and talking to many customers, that web search was a much bigger factor for the business than was Wikipedia. In any case it would have been much trickier to get the level of crowd input given to Wikipedia by a for profit enterprise. Regardless of tools or formats used.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by JimOk on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:21PM (#20742881)
Hello trumpetsailor! My former colleagues have been pointing me to multiple fun Encarta threads across social media.:-)
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by ISL on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:00PM (#20742790)
No matter where I go, there you are. Welcome to HN, Joker :).
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by JimOk on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:35PM (#20742678)
Btw despite the brief lifespan of the product, Encarta gave Microsoft reasonable return on investment. And arguably more importantly, it helped to quickly entrench the Multimedia PC standard, especially in homes. Which helped reduce Cost Of Goods Sold for all of the company's products, which netted a very nice return in cost savings.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by thaumasiotes on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:54PM (#20742760)
> The technology of written works has undergone several seismic shifts, from clay tablet to papyrus roll to codex to moveable type.

This confuses a number of different types of technology. For example, we haven't undergone a shift from codices -- we still use that form for all our written works today.

Clay and papyrus are materials on which text is written. Scroll and codex are physical forms in which long texts are organized. Movable type is a technology for recycling printing blocks. None of those three types of things are related to the other two, except that it's impossible to store clay as scrolls because it will dry. Clay is stored looseleaf.

Interestingly, the history of writing in the Near East shows exactly the same confusion -- a big reason written Aramaic grew more popular than Akkadian was that it was drawn on paper and Akkadian was carved into clay, despite the fact that logically nothing's stopping you from carving letters into clay or drawing cuneiform on paper.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dredmorbius on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:01AM (#20745219)
I'm compressing thoughts for brevity. The codex, handwritten, allowed random access, but was still phenomenally expensive to create. On the order of a million dollars per copy. They were chained, the language was standardised -- you brought readers to the work (Latin) rather than works to readers (vernacular).

Moveable type, cheap paper, mass literacy, vernacular language, typographic conventions, high-speed presses, and mass distribution, create a wholly different impact.

As Elizabeth Eisenstein noted, the printing press is an agent of social change. Generalised, all comms tech is.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by thaumasiotes on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @12:57PM (#20759044)
> The codex, handwritten, allowed random access

So do scrolls. You're not supposed to open the entire scroll at once. The codex is better at this.

> but was still phenomenally expensive to create. On the order of a million dollars per copy.

This is nonsense. You can prepare a very expensive book, but you don't have to. The idea that books were necessarily earth-shakingly expensive to create conflicts with the known reality of commercial popular novels in the ancient world.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dgritsko on Monday August 19, 2019 @04:05PM (#20741300)
I think the "not evenly distributed" quote is from William Gibson.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by santoshalper on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:28PM (#20742649)
That's a William Gibson quote.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by avip on Monday August 19, 2019 @04:58PM (#20741761)
>I really wonder what the next big changes will be

Temps up 2°C, marine ecosystems collapse, and hundreds of millions of refugees?

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by vkou on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:51PM (#20742496)
Yes, but will I be able to order a dog-walker from an app?
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by worik on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:34PM (#20742032)
Optimist
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by hedora on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:10PM (#20743303)
The projections from big oil in the early 80’s say the global economic system will collapse in about 20 years.

They nailed the current temperature rise. No reason to think the rest of the extrapolated curve is wrong.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by charliemil4 on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:54PM (#20743467)
Source? Curious to read
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by clows on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:38AM (#20745383)
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by brainpool on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:58PM (#20742200)
Yah. People will just die. Refugee sort of implies a refuge. There’s not going to be such thing’s around if things go south as we fear they are likely to. It’s gonna play out far more like the Old Testament.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by rusk on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:57PM (#20742522)
> There’s not going to be such thing’s around

Heretofor uninhabitable places such as ... greenland maybe?

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by pyrale on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:17AM (#20744791)
Greenland barely has soil. Take a look at the bed of a former glacier, and count the trees.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by rusk on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:43AM (#20745127)
It depends on where you look. Glaciers pick up material for sure, but where they melt, it is all deposited as glacial till which provides nice heavy soil for agriculture. As Greenland thaws, all this stuff will be deposited upon it. Ireland for instance, and parts of the UK have been beneficiaries of this.

Also, worth considering is that it is virgin territory for exploration for minerals and other goodies.

No shortage of water either.

But even all that aside, it is newly available space. If you can build a city in a desert (Phoenix, Arizona lets say) you can build one on Greenland.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by pyrale on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:15AM (#20755130)
The only reason you can build a city in a desert is the abundance of cheap energy and the ability to build what it needs elsewhere. These two conditions are not met in an hypothetic refuge.

As for soil, the creation of soil in Ireland and the UK took quite a bit of time.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by rusk on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @09:32AM (#20756961)
You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. You talking out your arse.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by k_sze on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:43PM (#20742963)
Is that why Trump wants to buy it?
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by avip on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:09PM (#20742278)
Start with the happy case or people will shut down and stop listening.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by Integrape on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:58PM (#20742201)
Seriously. Refugees? Mass extinction, more likely.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by PeterStuer on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:32AM (#20744094)
Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by _jahh on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:50PM (#20743455)
you mean the last 30 years?
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by alanh on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:29PM (#20741994)
My family was never one to spend a dollar if we could spend a nickel, so our encyclopedia was significantly out of date, as was our globe. But if you knew that the USSR didn’t really exist anymore, everything else was pretty much the same. Most knowledge doesn't become wrong; it just becomes history.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by majewsky on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @08:12AM (#20745980)
My physics teacher once announced, "physics survives all regime changes", as he whipped out a stack of GDR-era textbooks.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by nly on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:09PM (#20742276)
Cashless and bankless society.

I moved to London last year and have used cash roughly zero times since. Visiting my parents (outside London) is like jumping in to treacle. Finding coins for the bus? Paper tickets on the train? Give me a god damn break. Even using chip and pin is weird now since almost all my purchases, except for dining out, are either touchless, online, or via mobile app.

In 20 years i think cash (banknotes, coinage), and maybe even bank accounts as we know them today, will be an almost alien concept to kids. Brick and mortar banks will be gone entirely. I certainly haven't set foot in one over a decade.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by cr0sh on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:26PM (#20742644)
> Brick and mortar banks will be gone entirely. I certainly haven't set foot in one over a decade.

Don't have a safety deposit box with precious metals and jewels inside?

Many, many people do - among other items (guns, cash, drugs, etc).

While "brick and mortar" banks may not exist, something of the same nature will - some kind of high-security place to store stuff like that, away from home. Maybe it will also be combined with some kind of networked backup storage for data as well...

To an extent, places like this do exist - private vault companies; always have.

I guess my point is that physical banks offer other services which can't be replicated virtually.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by ajdlinux on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:16PM (#20742869)
I seem to recall reading an article on HN a few weeks ago about how banks are pulling out of the safety deposit business now that their new branches don't really need vaults for cash, and it's not clear that any replacement for those services is emerging with the same geographic reach as the retail banking system.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dnh44 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:33AM (#20744324)
Also the main point of the article was that the safety deposit boxes aren't even safe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/business/safe-deposit-box...

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by thaumasiotes on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:35PM (#20742933)
I've been in a bank recently to get penny rolls.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by antocv on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:40AM (#20744638)
Why do you think "safety deposit box" is a "safe deposit box", just because of the name and branding?

Give this a try, go open and put some rock in your safe deposit box, then call the bank and tell them you placed a C4 explosive in the box and will detonate it if they dont deposit gold under a park-bench in 2 days time.

Then watch how safe your safety deposit box is.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by executesorder66 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:59AM (#20744960)
> Cashless and bankless society.

I live in backwards South Africa, and even I can't remember the last time I needed to use cash. So I'm totally with you on that one.

But bankless? Eh, I think we are at least two or tree decades away from that.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by pkaye on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:22PM (#20740907)
My parents got us a full blown Encyclopedia Britannica book set in the 80s. Probably cost $1000 which was difficult by how much they made. But they paid it down monthly. I used to have loads of fun thumbing through those books. There were a few index books where you looked up a topic and it would refer you to a page in one of the other books. Closest thing to the internet back then.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by richardjdare on Monday August 19, 2019 @04:20PM (#20741419)
I had a complete set of the Joy of Knowledge Encyclopedia when I was a kid in the early 80s. They'd send you a magazine-sized section each week and you'd gradually build up to a full set which you could bind yourself in the provided hardback covers.

I think subscribing to that was one of the best things my parents ever did for my education. Over the course of my youth I devoured it several times and credit it to my earliest exposure to countless subjects that they'd never touch at school.

One of the most notable things about The Joy of Knowledge was the extraordinary explanatory art. One day I will have to find my books and make some scans.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by ghaff on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:30PM (#20740971)
I had a World Book and then an Encyclopedia Britannica growing up. They gave me many many hours of pleasure. (I still have the Britannica in my garage. I've cleaned out a lot of things over the years but I can't bring myself to toss that.)

And, yes, I seem to recall the price was something in the $500-$1000 ballpark. Which was definitely a lot of money in the early 70s(?) when I got it--and, yes, the salesman came to the house.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by UncleSlacky on Monday August 19, 2019 @04:02PM (#20741272)
I inherited a 1952 World Book set from an older cousin, then part-exchanged it for a 1979 set (plus the 1980 "Year Book" update) thanks to the encyclopedia salesman. The normal price would have been around $1000 even then. Today they weigh down/stabilize one of my freestanding bookshelves in the living room.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by pkaye on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:37PM (#20741044)
> I still have the Britannica in my garage. I've cleaned out a lot of things over the years but I can't bring myself to toss that.

Same here! The knowledge was obsolete but the memories of my childhood were a part of it. I eventually recycled most of them after I last moved but there are a few books I still have somewhere.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by 5555624 on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:08PM (#20742272)
>I still have the Britannica in my garage. I've cleaned out a lot of things over the years but I can't bring myself to toss that.

A few years ago, during a move,I finally parted with the set my parents had gotten in the late 60s or early 70s. It was painful, but I had to really downsize at the time.

I still have my 1911 edition, which I can't get rid of, even if I haven't cracked a volume in a couple of years.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by rconti on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:47PM (#20741135)
We had childcraft, as I recall, but definitely never could have afforded the $1000-$1500 for Britannica.

One word for Encarta and the like: Edutainment.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by cabaalis on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:03PM (#20741812)
In elementary school they taught us to use an index book. I wonder if this skill is taught today. (doubtful.)
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by cr0sh on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:34PM (#20742674)
Another skill not taught today - how to use a library card catalog.

Looking up things in the card catalog, and on microfiche at my local library, was as much fun as locating the book itself. Sometimes, in the course of searching the catalog, I'd come across other books that sounded interesting, so I would write down those call numbers, too.

Or browsing microfiche roll magazines and newspapers - high speed fast forward and reverse, then for 10 cents a page (!) pop off a copy to take home.

That is one part I don't miss - having to pay for photocopies...

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by kalleboo on Monday August 19, 2019 @09:29PM (#20743144)
I was a kid in the early 90's, and the card catalog was already dead back then - our library had green screen terminals to look up books that I used.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by JimOk on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:41PM (#20742701)
A long time encyclopedia editor (who worked at Britannica, World Book, and Encarta) told me that door to door encyclopedia sales were dying well before Encarta. Due to the rise in two income couples, which radically narrowed the time window when you could get anyone to give you time at the door...
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by jacobolus on Monday August 19, 2019 @04:58PM (#20741762)
My grandparents got a Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia one volume at a time from a supermarket marketing thing in the 1950s.

Amusingly, many of the articles in Encarta were copied verbatim from there.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by voltagex_ on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:07AM (#20744220)
Last part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funk_%26_Wagnalls

>"After failing to purchase rights to the text of the Encyclopædia Britannica and World Book Encyclopedia for its Encarta digital encyclopedia, Microsoft reluctantly used (under license) the text of Funk & Wagnalls encyclopedia for the first editions of its encyclopedia. This licensed text was gradually replaced over the following years with content Microsoft created itself.[7]"

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by goatinaboat on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:50PM (#20741168)
the interactive elements and audio clips blew my mind. It changed how I thought about information

Same experience here. It was like having the computer from the Starship Enterprise but it was right here and now and I got to use it. It’s been a long time since I felt that sense of wonder from anything in computing.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by bredren on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:35PM (#20740431)
I saw the Hindenburg disaster video on Encarta, which was an intro to how articles and media could be put together. It amazed me at the time.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by jbob2000 on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:40PM (#20740474)
With a little bit of investment, the Civilization game series could be leveraged to replace that feeling you got from Encarta.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by helloguillecl on Monday August 19, 2019 @04:35PM (#20741550)
Do you happen to remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fRX4R6MY4A

:)

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by markus_zhang on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:43PM (#20741096)
Yeah it is THE software for multi-media showcase. Back in 90s I had a copy of shareware/demo version and it already blowed my mind off. The whole collection was like a dozen CD I think? I never got the chance to see it though. Nowadays we still don't have something that match up the experience.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by dawnerd on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:44PM (#20740511)
I actually just found an encarta 95 disk in a spindle of other random disks I had. Good memories from it.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by NeedMoreTea on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:51PM (#20741174)
We have an old encyclopedia set - not Britannica though, from the 1910s or 1920s. I think it was my grandfather's originally, bought for father and uncles. Perhaps the generation earlier.

Whilst it's not especially useful in today's world, it's a fascinating relic, especially on trades and skills that have declined or died out. On medicine, zoology and other sciences, it's occasionally surprising how we used to think. I'd periodically pick it up and read a few entries at random, and often disappear down a rabbit hole. At some point it stopped being obsolete and pointless to become fascinating history.

That's one thing Encarta could have been had it continued - a valuable snapshot of how thought and knowledge evolved. Always updated Wikipedia can and will never be that as sadly you can't snapshot a given date, and digging through edit histories is horribly unfriendly. We may have lost something there.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by martin_a on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:17AM (#20744520)
> Whilst it's not especially useful in today's world, it's a fascinating relic, especially on trades and skills that have declined or died out.

Same for me. My grandfather was a teacher and I saved quite a few of the old school/teaching books after he died.

Did you know that the Empire State Building is the highest building on earth?

Well, it was, when these books were printed. :-)

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by davidgerard on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:24PM (#20741968)
> It didn’t have to be like that, honestly. Imagine what might have happened if, for example, Microsoft worked more closely with the Wikimedia Foundation on the highly visual treatments the company was known for with Encarta. The nonprofit ownership was a good move, but the fact that MS seemed to cede the market entirely, especially so soon after disrupting the whole thing, was unfortunate.

We actually asked them about this, IIRC - it turns out a lot of that stuff was licensed from third parties, and they weren't free to release it under a free content license, and didn't have the resources to sort out what was what.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by shortformblog on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:36PM (#20742428)
That’s very unfortunate, but I’m glad to hear Wikipedia was actually thinking in this general direction.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by duxup on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:00PM (#20740691)
It's funny to think of it but CD-ROMs ... really were where all the multimedia was.

Outside professionals, not many people stored videos or audio on their PC in the early day, so all the multimedia type stuff, and to some extent including video games ... was all centered around the CD-ROM.

I used to gobble up all the super cheap "multimedia collection" type disks available at the time.

To some extent what made computers the multimedia place to be was the good old CD-ROM, well before the internet took it over.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by cr0sh on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:38PM (#20742691)
There were earlier systems in the 1980s that combined PCs (or equivalent machines) with Pioneer LaserDisc systems (which could be controlled via a serial port) - a somewhat well known one was the BBC Domesday Project:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project

An early glimpse of the future, somewhat.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by duxup on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:59PM (#20743018)
Man what a mess of a project that was.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by billpg on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:15AM (#20745272)
If only they had waited ten or so years.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by scarface74 on Monday August 19, 2019 @08:20PM (#20742880)
Encarta is a great example of Microsoft winning a market, and after it was defeated, letting it fade out.

Encarta lasted from 1991-2009.

The iPod was introduced in 2001, saw sells start to fall off a cliff around 2009 and were all discontinued in 2017 - except for the iPod in name only iPod Touch. No one would say that the iPod was a failure. Encarta helped start the multimedia PC boom that helped make home computers more ubiquitous just like the iPod was Apple’s introduction to a wider audience.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by Retric on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:10PM (#20743304)
Calling the iPad touch an iPad in name only is disingenuous. It’s 1/2 the price of the original and has more space etc. As to falling off a cliff, they sold significantly more iPods in 09, 10, and 11 than 06. They even sold more than 3x as many iPods in 2014 than 2004.

Apples watch is still a watch even if it does a lot of other things. Microsoft never ported Encarta functionality to anything after 09, it just died.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by scarface74 on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:53PM (#20743465)
2008 was peak iPod and they started declining after that.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ipod_sales_per_quart...

Note FYQ1 is calendar quarter 4.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by Retric on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:45PM (#20743663)
As a brand sure, but the iPhone has been a fair replacement for many people. I mean digital camera sales have dropped 84% since 2010, but if anything people are taking far more photos now.

For most people cellphones have mostly replaced watches, digital cameras, keychain flashlights, and MP3 players not because they are awesome at it but because having slightly better but largely redundant devices is not worth it. https://www.statista.com/chart/5782/digital-camera-shipments...

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by scarface74 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:39AM (#20756365)
I agree, and that’s kind of my point. Microsoft didn’t abandon Encarta because of corporate stupidity. It’s time had passed.

The iPod’s time had passed and the iPod Touch could just as well be called an iPad Nano. It’s more of an iPad than iPod.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by ksec on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:59PM (#20740674)
I see it as a Free Vs Paid Model, Wiki is Free, and it is good enough for most use cases. Encarta had a lot of licensing, and I doubt any of that will ever be free, but the quality of those articles inside Encarta or Britannica in many ways are still way ahead of Wiki.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by ticmasta on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:23PM (#20740916)
I think it goes even beyond paid vs free; the wiki model of knowledgeable, caring volunteers doing all this work for free seemed pretty crazy to all but a very few. Curated collections like Encarta and encyclopedias also tended to have very cursory entries for all but the broadest and market-focused topics. IMO a biased article is better than no information at all. In the very least it gives us a starting point for discovery, discussion and improvement. Most of what we today take for granted started with a pretty one-sided viewpoint that gained attention and inclusiveness.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by B1FF_PSUVM on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:50PM (#20741158)
Way back when, I yielded to temptation, as comrade Oscar advised, and at a fair bought a sealed Britannica CD-ROM box.

It came with a parallel port dongle -not mentioned in the box copy- to ensure that the precious was not shared.

It did not work right, and I was cured of buying that stuff.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by joblessjunkie on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @09:14AM (#20756827)
I appreciated this article. I agree that "Microsoft was never in it for the history."

Not to sound cynical, but I believe MSFT wasn't trying to sell encyclopedias, they were trying to sell CD-ROM drives.

The upcoming Windows 93 (whoops, we slipped a little, make that 95) was going to require a billion floppy disks for distribution. Retail products were shipping in large boxes with comically tall stacks of expensive floppy disks.

CD-ROMs, on the other hand, are so cheap to distribute that AOL mailed them out as unsolicited junk mail.

It was worth sinking some money into a bunch of high-quality CD-ROM titles to get those drives standard on all PCs. Once that task was accomplished....

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by tzs on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:53PM (#20741189)
> I think Microsoft had the right idea—it was the killer app for CD-ROMs—though it turned out that the internet would only make it a temporary success story.

It was a killer app for CD-ROM, but for the title of the killer app I'd say DeLorme's "Street Atlas USA" had at least an equal claim.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by cr0sh on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:42PM (#20742705)
I would almost say the -the- killer app for CD-ROM was Myst. I know I bought my second PC in 1994 (an Acer 486 DX2-50 with Vesa Local Bus graphics and a CD-ROM drive) just so I could play it (my previous machines as an adult were both Amigas).

You may be wondering why I say "second PC" - well, just before graduating high school my parents bought me a laptop, a Tandy 1100HD - which was technically my first PC. Later, after I had left home on my own, I bought an Amiga 2000, then an Amiga 1200, before getting the 486.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by tripzilch on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:30AM (#20745334)
... not quite equal, Encarta was useful in more places than just the US.
Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by anthony_doan on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:34PM (#20743392)
> Encarta is a great example of Microsoft winning a market, and after it was defeated, letting it fade out.

Felt the same way with IE until Mozilla came along after Netscape died.

Re:I Miss Microsoft Encarta by m1sta_ on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:12PM (#20741884)
Is Encarta open source? Microsoft might be open to allowing it to be integrated into Wikipedia.