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Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by weiming on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:00AM (#20534079)
Now if only they could also get rid of the TouchBar. Most frustrating "feature" ever as I keep accidentally pressing some parts of it while resting my hands or typing. Not to mention that I don't look down at the keyboard area as I type.

Keep the TouchID button, get rid of the rest, just like the current Airs.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by robbyking on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:24PM (#20538063)
I really thought the Touch Bar would grow on me, and now a year or so later it's just as frustrating and unintuitive as it was on day one.

My wife and I rarely watch television, but when we do it's on our MBP. There literally isn't a way to adjust the volume on full screen video using just the keyboard; you have to exit full screen mode (to revert the Touch Bar to its default set of buttons), and then adjust the volume slider (which is still another screen deep).

It's infuriating.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by dkthehuman on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:43PM (#20538190)
If you go to System Preferences > Keyboard, you can change the "Touch Bar shows" option from "App Controls" to "Expanded Control Strip" to have the default set of buttons showing all the time.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by zerocrates on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:23PM (#20538455)
Of course if it's just going to show the default set of buttons all the time, that's a feature also achievable with... actual keys.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bhl on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:47PM (#20540098)
Default keys won’t prevent the touchbar from freezing or bugging out, which has occurred multiple times for me. It’s odd to make such important keys software based and prone to non mechanical failure.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by EForEndeavour on Saturday July 27, 2019 @12:15PM (#20542667)
I wonder what fails more often, the touchbar or mechanical keys. In any case, though, the touchbar is the anti-feature nobody asked for.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by cassianoleal on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:34PM (#20544029)
I've had a TouchBar MacBook Pro for about 2 years now. The TouchBar has frozen or crashed on me multiple times. Apart from the terrible butterfly keyboard on this same computer which also tends to fail, literallyt never in 35-ish years using computers I had a mechanical key failing on me.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by dankohn1 on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:02PM (#20539708)
Thank you! I couldn't figure out how to do that.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by the_watcher on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:09PM (#20538345)
If you set the default to function keys, you can also set the fn key to show the expanded control strip too.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by GordonS on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:19PM (#20538861)
I felt the same way, and after maybe 2 years I still hate it - the only thing I ever want to use on it is the F-keys, rendering it useless.

Actually, worse than useless - I also run Bootstrap on my MBP, and when using keys on the touch bar you have to leave something like a 2s delay between each press for it to register. Maddening when F5 stepping through code!

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by cpuguy83 on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:48PM (#20539304)
When I first got it I was like "This isn't as bad as people make it out to be"... but now 1 year in and I want to throw this thing across the room at least once a day because my finger grazed something on the touchbar and totally messed up whatever I was doing.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by mitchellgoffpc on Saturday July 27, 2019 @12:02AM (#20540318)
I 100% agree with you, but definitely check out pock.dev. Saw it on HN a little while ago, it shows your dock in the touchbar and you can customize it to add music/brightness/volume controls as well. At least for me, it actually makes the touchbar useful since I can hide the on-screen dock and still see at a glance if I have notifications, which apps are open, and what Spotify is playing (I’ve heard bettertouchtool can do something similar too)
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bradbatt on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:16PM (#20538393)
This doesn't excuse Apple's poor design, but I highly recommend Keyboard Maestro to solve this problem for you. You can assign keyboard shortcuts to actions in specific programs (and much, much more) ... super useful program.

https://www.keyboardmaestro.com/

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by outoftheabyss on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:41PM (#20538596)
Works normally for me, no need to exit full screen. I would say the more frustrating thing is that once you change the volume, the Touch Bar takes a while to turn off so you are left with the distraction when watching video.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by IggleSniggle on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:36PM (#20538142)
Have only and exactly the controls you want on your touchbar: https://community.folivora.ai/t/goldenchaos-btt-a-complete-t...
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by factotvm on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:26PM (#20539808)
A solution to a problem that shouldn't exist, in my opinion. That's fine if you want to try and sell TouchBars, but still give me the option to buy a laptop without one.

I'm still holding out hope for a good keyboard and a proper row of keys along the top. In the meantime, I'm typing this on a 2012 MacBook Pro.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by wodenokoto on Saturday July 27, 2019 @12:24AM (#20540367)
You can set the bar to always show certain widgets. I have mine always show keyboard light, brightness and volume control. This doesn’t require any 3rd party software

But it still lights up whenever you want it to be dark (like when a full screen video starts), and is dark whenever you actually need to look it it (when you decide to adjust the volume a few minutes later).

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by koiz on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:05PM (#20539110)
It's cheap crap.

If they had real buttons that could be be completely dynamic it would be better. Basically what we see with a stream deck.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by nhooyr on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:21PM (#20538435)
Not sure what you're talking about. Volume control works normally for me full screen.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by pryce on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:00PM (#20538722)
Touchbar Volume controls on fullscreen video work for me - can I ask which video application are you using?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Fnoord on Saturday July 27, 2019 @05:41AM (#20541212)
(Disclaimer: I never owned a TouchBar Mac.)

There are a few applications which enhance the TouchBar in one way or another. Perhaps the best idea I've seen is the one where it put the Dock in the TouchBar.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by xz0r on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:30PM (#20540027)
In VLC, you could use up/down arrow keys to control volume.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by nfoz on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:54PM (#20539060)
When I bought a Macbook in 2006, it came with a remote-control. I guess they don't do this anymore?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by schpaencoder on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:09PM (#20539126)
They certainly don’t come with anything nonessential anymore.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Corrado on Saturday July 27, 2019 @05:22AM (#20541163)
This is part of my frustration with Apple lately. Buying an Apple product, any Apple product, used to be a premium experience. You received everything you needed, and more. There were plenty of cords, controllers, etc. and even stickers! The packaging was beautiful to look at, easy to work with (no squeaky Styrofoam!), and cleverly constructed. You were excited to get the package home and open it.

Now, Apple seems to cut corners where ever possible; as someone else mentioned the power brick no longer includes an extension cable. To make matters worse, the USB-C cable they do include is a "power only" cable and won't allow you to hook up other things to your MBP. This means to hook up your monitor to your new computer you have to remember to purchase a "real" USB-C cable.

This is on a product that costs thousands of dollars! Can they not afford to provide a usable set of cables with your $2,500 computer?

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by redwall_hp on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:12PM (#20539418)
They don't even come with a three prong extension cord anymore.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by inferiorhuman on Saturday July 27, 2019 @02:22AM (#20540678)
The replacement USB-C chargers don't even come with any way of connecting to the computer.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by a2tech on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:46AM (#20534336)
I think the TouchBar is here to stay. Non-programmers LOVE IT. Its crazy how many people come up and ask me about it at presentations. I was running a presentation the other day and had PowerPoint full screen and someone walked by and saw the mini slide previews and all the presenter controls on it and was absolutely blown away by it. They called over a few other people and they all left wanting a Mac.

For some its an irritation. For others its a revelation.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by weiming on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:49AM (#20534361)
Might be one of those "designed to look good and sell more units, not for actual users" Apple ideas. There was a post about it on HN a few weeks ago. Edit: linked below
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by waterhouse on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:02AM (#20534440)
Perhaps something like this? https://asktog.com/atc/the-third-user/
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Izmaki on Friday July 26, 2019 @03:56PM (#20537870)
I'm a programmer and I love it too. It looks really nice and the virtual buttons that appear in the different applications that I also use are really convenient (e.g. the settings button for my VMware VMs or the full control I have over Spotify as I work somewhere completely different).

The escape key being "hard to hit" is exaggerated to say the least, and the F-keys I only use then I debug and need to step through my code. I do other things when developing than stepping through my code.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by brianpgordon on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:26PM (#20538888)
In 3 years of work laptop use I don't think I've ever once encountered an app that actually provides useful enough controls to depose my default function controls of

1. Mission control 2. Brightness down 3. Brightness up 4. Previous track 5. Play/pause 6. Next track 7. Volume down 8. Volume up

After experimenting with all of the apps I use every day to see what controls they could provide, I ended up just disabling the app-specific touchbar controls entirely and going with my defaults for every app.

I know it's personal preference how everyone likes their own machine configured, but as someone who gets zero value out of the OLED display, it's frustrating how vastly worse an experience it is than than it needs to be. The touch bar is clumsy with its zero touch feedback, so that I'm always accidentally pressing it with my fingertips when using the number row, and it drives me crazy. It's so much worse than the function keys that even if they fixed the utterly broken keyboard mechanism I would never buy a touchbar Macbook. Fortunately, Apple is making it a really easy decision, since their display panels aren't even close to being the best anymore, their core components are perennially outdated and overpriced, and MacOS has long been neglected. What else is there? The touchpad? I just use a high-end gaming mouse because it's about a billion times more precise and reliable.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by rhizome on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:22PM (#20539193)
That sounds like Quicksilver from a long time ago, I wonder what took its place. I know Spotlight took a lot of the filesearch features, but the UI automation and macro functionality were some real powerful stuff.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by brianpgordon on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:37PM (#20539262)
I don't see what you're saying the connection is to Quicksilver, but I believe the modern replacements are Alfred and LaunchBar. I have licenses for both but ended up sticking with LaunchBar for my MacOS machines because I don't need the more powerful automation features of Alfred.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ericd on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:01PM (#20539916)
Alfred+Dash have been an amazing improvement to my workflow. Type in "torch batch" and suddenly you have all the docs for Pytorch's Batchnorm functions right there.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Izmaki on Saturday July 27, 2019 @03:49AM (#20540909)
If you're accidentally pressing it when hitting the number keys, your finger positions must be way off. It's not like the number keys are thin at all. Regarding the gaming mouse, if all you use the touchpad for is point and click a mouse is a decent replacement - that goes for all touchpads. I'd like to see you do three-finger-right-swipe or four-finger-pinch on a gaming mouse, though. :P
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by tedivm on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:01PM (#20537913)
I have my caps-lock key mapped to esc and that solves that issue- a bigger issue for me is not having volume keys available all the time.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by saidajigumi on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:13PM (#20537988)
One better: I have my caps-lock key mapped to control, then use the ControlEscape "spoon"[1] for Hammerspoon[2] to allow it to also be an ESC key. The insight is that "control" is held, but "esc" is momentary, allowing these functions to be overlaid. It works great, nary a hiccup.

Way beyond "fixing" the Touch Bar's lack of ESC, this is far and away my preferred usage now.

[1] https://github.com/jasonrudolph/ControlEscape.spoon – a plugin (aka "spoon") for Hammerspoon.

[2] https://www.hammerspoon.org/ – a fantastic UI event scripting and customization tool for macOS

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by windexh8er on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:43PM (#20539860)
And then you go to use another machine with a full keyboard... Frustration. I agree: mapping keys is a simple and easy fix. But, it's frustrating if you switch between machines. I literally cannot type on my MBP from work after using my fantastic mechanical keyboard all day. Jarring is an understatement.

I want a full, physical keyboard. That's it. I won't buy another MacBook if Apple continues to forcefeed that pile of garbage as the only option. I said this in another comment a while ago: people who like Touchbar don't type. They're point and click users. People who type for a living despise it. I realize there are outliers but that's a pretty accurate characterization.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by saidajigumi on Sunday July 28, 2019 @11:47AM (#20548111)
To be clear: what I've described is not a "fix" – it's an unalloyed improvement. I use this configuration uniformly across all keyboards: control and ESC on the home row FTW.

Also, take your angry generalizations about TouchBar users elsewhere. Aside from the ESC key loss I'm fine with the TouchBar, and know quite a few competent touch-typist developers who really like it as well. It is very divisive, but please leave off characterizing others' preferences according to your own frustration.

And I really do understand your frustration with the keyboards. They're just not great, and the reliability problems are a disaster. The only silver lining is that there's pretty reliable info that Apple is switching back to scissor mechanism keyboards for its laptops this year. Doesn't help the rest of us stuck with the "bad" years keyboards, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by brianpgordon on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:27PM (#20538903)
Yeah, Karabiner-Elements has that option and it's great. There is something satisfying about smashing that ESC button sometimes though in some contexts. :(
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by gumby on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:58PM (#20539078)
I did the same, plus used Karabiner to disable the Touch Bar escape "key" and set the touchbar to only show volume, brightness, kbd brightness regardless of app running.

In that mode it's OK, but I still have to look down to mute the sound, which is inconvenient.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by misnome on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:40PM (#20538170)
Or even play/pause buttons
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by benjymo on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:20AM (#20534547)
I'm a programmer and I like the touch bar. Intellij integrates it quite nicely, I can add terminal commands if I'm in the terminal, switching between email and calendar in Outlook also works well.

Sure it also has downsides but generic "F1" to "F12" buttons also isn't the pinnacle of UX.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by tobr on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:16PM (#20538008)
I think it’s here to stay, too, and thankfully the main issue with it is fixable: the lack of tactile feedforward/feedback. If the display had little grooves to separate the controls and used the same 100% convincing fake button travel used in the trackpad, I think it would be an excellent enhanced fn key row. You need to be able to rest your finger lightly on a key without pressing it. (The same needs to happen with smartphones/tablets too, fwiw)
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by chrischen on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:12AM (#20534488)
You’re making big assumptions about programmers. I’d rather have the touch bar and I’m a programmer. One of the reasons is that, well, it’s programmable.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by r00fus on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:21PM (#20539188)
What tool do you prefer to program it?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by goerz on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:13PM (#20539428)
BetterTouchTool
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ProAm on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:44PM (#20538200)
They should have both a function key row and a touchbar then.

It has value, it doesnt have enough value to remove an entire row of keys that have been of use for decades.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by outside1234 on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:03PM (#20537934)
I love the TouchBar as well - it would be perfect from my perspective if they had kept the Escape key.

That is literally my only gripe with it

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by factotvm on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:27PM (#20539811)
I would like you to be able to buy a laptop with the TouchBar. However, I would like to be able to buy a laptop without one.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by mr_toad on Friday July 26, 2019 @11:59PM (#20540306)
I wish Apple sold MBPs without a touchbar just so I could stop hearing about it in every single thread.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by factotvm on Saturday July 27, 2019 @10:36AM (#20542202)
You’re in a thread about Apple keyboards. However, I am confident you could find a thread elsewhere that isn’t discussing TouchBars.

This one perhaps: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20531955

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bori5 on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:30PM (#20538506)
There’s tools out there like BetterTouchTool and I imagine several others than allow you to do this and more.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by lonelappde on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:39PM (#20539847)
BTT cannot add a physical Escape key.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by c256 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:24AM (#20541024)
Since it seems like we’re already near tongue-in-cheek but still functional: it doesn’t need to; there’s a perfectly good oversized one sitting at the left end of the home row. If you’d like, you can even make it both Escape (by itself) and Control (when used in combination with another key).
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by GhostVII on Friday July 26, 2019 @11:58PM (#20540302)
I think it is mainly an irritation for "power users". Can't imagine the average person using function keys or caring that they are gone, they just use the GUI to do everything. The touchbar is great for those people because it takes options that they might normally have to use multiple clicks to get to, and puts them on the keyboard.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by crazygringo on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:46AM (#20534740)
I've posted before, but the touch bar is not for the HN crowd.

It's for graphics/video/audio professionals, the original Mac "pro" market, where it's a super-useful ultra-flexible slider/picker that works far better than a trackpad or mouse for that purpose. And the ones I know love it.

I get most HN'ers don't like it (and I personally have no use for it), but Apple didn't build it because they're dumb or are going for style over substance. It's just a different target market.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bb88 on Friday July 26, 2019 @03:19PM (#20537578)
> where it's a super-useful ultra-flexible slider/picker that works far better than a trackpad or mouse for that purpose.

You know what else does that? A touch screen. Apple seems to be okay with it for the phones/pads. It would also be cheaper (since it's just an overlay on the glass). And the touch area would be the size of the screen that you're looking at, rather than a narrow strip you have to shift your eyes to.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by tobtoh on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:24PM (#20540009)
As a professional photographer, there is no way I'd want to be processing images using a fingerprint marked screen.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by llampx on Sunday July 28, 2019 @05:55AM (#20546694)
You can choose not to touch your screen. Also plenty of people are editing images and videos on iPhones and iPads this very minute.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by jki275 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @01:51AM (#20540604)
Apple has a trackpad the size of a small screen, it’s also the best trackpad on the market by far. No need for a touch screen - I’ve owned them and find them utterly useless and annoying to try to keep clean.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Tinfoilhat666 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @12:20AM (#20540359)
Apple should make the touch bar larger like Asus had done: https://mashable.com/article/asus-zenbook-pro-duo-dual-scree...
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by olalonde on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:05AM (#20534880)
Couldn't they make everyone happy by keeping both a physical ESC key and the touch bar?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by saurik on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:21PM (#20538038)
Yeah; to me this is the thing that is so strange: removing the function keys? OK, I get it. I used to use the function keys a lot 25 years ago, but I think I haven't used them once in over a decade (note: I mean "as function keys", as opposed to "as media control keys"). But removing the escape key? That key is still being used by a lot of people and software, and I don't just mean us console editor people :/.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by IggleSniggle on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:39PM (#20538162)
I'm happy about it, if only because it finally got me to adopt mapping CAPS to Esc, which is glorious.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bashinator on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:13PM (#20538823)
I'm not happy about it, because I have Caps mapped to control, and last I checked, you can't map the bottom-left ctrl key to Esc. I actually don't have a MacBook anymore because of this.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Xcelerate on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:19PM (#20538859)
You can do that. That’s how I have mine set up currently.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by kumoflow on Saturday July 27, 2019 @08:47AM (#20541782)
System Preferences->Keyboard->Modifiers

You can swap Control to Espace there (probably the same place you mapped Caps to Control???)

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by afandian on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:58PM (#20538265)
But where do you have ctrl mapped to?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bitL on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:09PM (#20538341)
My 3-week old last gen butterfly keyboard's Caps lock is starting to fail...
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by robbyking on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:26PM (#20538080)
But I want physical volume buttons, too! (The Touch Bar volume buttons aren't available at all when video is in full screen mode.)

I don't understand why it isn't an optional feature.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by pier25 on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:33PM (#20538940)
OTOH a huge part of the creative market vastly prefers using desktop machines for better performance. Even if you connect a bigger monitor to a MBP you are most likely going to use an external keyboard.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by eropple on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:26PM (#20538083)
And I've posted before, but the applications that actually have good integrations for that already have better integrations with an iPad. Logic Remote beats the heck out of Logic On A Touch Bar and is pretty much square in the same spendy-bracket.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by jbob2000 on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:54AM (#20534794)
Those professionals use desktops, not the fanless, battery powered, port-less, glue and solder mess that is the current Macbook lineup.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by casion on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:05AM (#20534879)
No? Most all of my friends are graphics pros, and they largely prefer working on their laptop when possible.

My little hobby circle is audio, and the touchbar is almost universally loved there too.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by jbob2000 on Friday July 26, 2019 @12:02PM (#20535786)
Interesting! I have a friend who does audio engineering and soundtracks for film studios here in Toronto. Him and his coworkers swear by the old cheese graters. They're all contractors so they're responsible for maintaining their own equipment. And since their work is very seasonal, purchasing new equipment is not always an option when you don't know when your next contract is coming.

Edit: asked him about the touch bar, he says he doesn't want to change his workflow to use something new when he's got all this audio equipment that works fine.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by shakna on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:16PM (#20538842)
I probably shouldn't name names without consulting them, but two of the bigger graphic design firms in Australia (bigger by half the products you see in a day are done by them) that I know fairly well are pretty much all Macbooks.

The CEO and team leads also get iMacs for the office, but extensively use the laptops. There is exactly one tower in each office - the render farm.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Apocryphon on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:25PM (#20538073)
At this point Apple should just release a mid-2015 MBPr with modern hardware and call it the "MacBook Pro Classic".
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by aduitsis on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:51PM (#20539044)
The battery on my 13" MBPr, which I bought on 2015, recently begun to swell. Apple support said that a swollen battery is very dangerous, then proceeded to confirm out that its warranty was expired and there was no replacement program for the 13", contrary to the 15" MBPr from 2015. Battery replacement 300€, which is frankly preposterous.

I shortly contemplated getting a new MBPr, but with all the stories circulating about the butterfly keyboards and the touch bar, went with an ifixit battery replacement kit, about 100€.

I'm generally very reluctant to carry out these types of sensitive repairs myself, but opted to do it with help from a friend. If, instead of buying a new one, the customer prefers to keep a 2015 MBPr and is even willing to run the gauntlet of carrying out a difficult repair themselves, something's seriously wrong. And Apple should take notice.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by deepspace on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:04PM (#20538315)
I had to replace a very old MBP recently and couldn't stomach the keyboard, touch bar and lack of ports on the new models, so I bought a used Mid 2015r in mint condition. Best computer I ever owned.

If Apple were to re-release that machine with upgraded CPU, graphics card, memory and storage, I would buy one in an instant.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by inferiorhuman on Saturday July 27, 2019 @02:25AM (#20540687)
At this point Apple should just release a mid-2015 MBPr with modern hardware and call it the "MacBook Pro Classic".

The 2105 MBP is no prize either. I just got an email this morning that it's covered by the battery recall — I had checked when the recall was initially announced and it wasn't included.

Soldered storage means I can't just pop my drive out and give it to Apple for repair. Glued in batteries mean I can't just pop the battery out with a quarter and swap it out at an Apple store.

So what? Apple wants two weeks to repair the damn thing. Sure I'd like to be able to upgrade stuff, but ease of service is (now) an issue I've to contend with. This may very well be my last Apple notebook.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by valiant-comma on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:03PM (#20538307)
Or the “MacBook SE”.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by RobertDeNiro on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:58PM (#20538273)
That's definitely when they peaked.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ransom1538 on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:21PM (#20538872)
Just bought one on amazon refurbished. Best. Laptop. Ever.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by empath75 on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:29AM (#20534227)
One thing I appreciate is that the touchbar forced me to map escape to the caps lock key and I now do that on every computer, touchbar or not -- it's so much nicer for vim.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by gshdg on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:31AM (#20534244)
But then your only control key is in an almost unusable location, which is even worse!
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by cynix on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:56AM (#20534407)
I have capslock mapped to escape when pressed by itself, and ctrl (or cmd) when pressed in combination with another key. Problem solved.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Brometheus on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:34AM (#20534649)
Yes, me too. Under Linux, you can use xcape to simulate this.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by olalonde on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:03AM (#20534863)
How do you do this?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by thenewwazoo on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:09PM (#20537962)
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ritz_labringue on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:39AM (#20534281)
What does it have to do with the control key ?
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by insaneirish on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:46AM (#20534338)
Because control should be where caps lock is on most keyboards.

It is the one key re-map I cannot live without.

(Anyone who used a Sun keyboard for a considerable period time is familiar with this layout. I do not know if any other systems predated Sun in this regard.)

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ken on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:28PM (#20538492)
Sun (founded 1982) was certainly not the first. The Apple II (1977) put CTRL to the left of A, and every other II followed suit. I'm sure they weren't the first, either. The original IBM PC's Model F keyboard (1981) put control to the left of A, too.

The Macintosh didn't originally have a CTRL key, so Caps Lock went there. The first Mac to have CTRL seems to be the Macintosh II and SE, where you were offered the choice of the Apple Keyboard (control left of A) or Apple Extended Keyboard (caps lock left of A). Thus began decades of confusion.

Interestingly, the NeXT keyboard (1988) had no caps lock.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ch_123 on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:13PM (#20538816)
If you pressed Command and Shift, you activated "Shift Lock"
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by RodgerTheGreat on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:58AM (#20534420)
I always thought the position of the control key on the OLPC keyboard was a cute decision: http://wiki.laptop.org/images/1/1b/Keyboard_english.png

Several extra keys for typing useful symbols and non-english characters, and not a CapsLock in sight!

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ch_123 on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:33PM (#20538126)
> (Anyone who used a Sun keyboard for a considerable period time is familiar with this layout. I do not know if any other systems predated Sun in this regard.)

I believe the ASR33 may be the originator of Ctrl to the left of A:

https://www.bytecollector.com/images/asr-33_vcf_02.jpg

Other influential terminals such as the DEC VT series, and the ADM-3A also placed Ctrl along the home row (although on many of the DEC keyboards, there were two keys in the modern Caps Lock position - Ctrl to the left, and Caps Lock on the right).

Many early home computers had Ctrl in this position, including the Apple II and the original IBM PC.

The very first Sun workstation used a keyboard with the same layout as the DEC VT100, it then evolved into the more well known Sun layout, which later inspired the Happy Hacking Keyboard,

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by hprotagonist on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:22AM (#20534566)
I believe the old space cadet keyboards did, and also that that is why emacs prioritizes the C- prefix for major chords.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by gshdg on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:43PM (#20538615)
Because ctrl is important for terminal users, but Mac keyboards have it only in a very awkward almost unreachable place - so remapping caps lock to ctrl is a very common fix (which is supported natively in the settings app, too).
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by huseyinkeles on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:44AM (#20534321)
I have my control key mapped to caps lock and can't go back at this point.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by staekk on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:34AM (#20534258)
I'm a vim user myself and I already maped ctrl to the caps lock key, since I think that the ctrl key is much more awkward than esc.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by WarDores on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:07PM (#20538780)
Plus Ctrl + [ = Esc. That's so ingrained by this point I don't even notice I'm doing it 90% of the time.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by GGfpc on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:13AM (#20534496)
Same. I did that because of tmux
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Ididntdothis on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:59AM (#20534424)
I also keep touching the TouchBar a lot by accident and it can drive me crazy. It may actually be not that bad if it behaved more like keyboard key so you had to apply a little pressure before it gets triggered. Especially when web browsing with the MacBook on my lap I constantly touch some part of the touchbar a little and trigger some random function.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by foxyv on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:05AM (#20534881)
Yeah it would have been cool if they were buttons but with LCD or E-ink programmable functions and displays. Kind of like a stream deck. Personally though I would have been happy with the touch bar AND a row of function keys. If you look at the Macbook there is a ton of space above the keyboard for this...
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by sound1 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @12:14AM (#20540347)
I came here to say exactly this. And I don't even own an MBP.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by z6 on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:21PM (#20539996)
Keep going.

- Fix keyboard [check]

- Remove touchbar (or keep touchbar but also add back original function keys)

- Add MagSafe

- Add useful ports (USB-A, SD, HDMI)

- Add sufficient cooling

- Shrink touchpad to 2015 size

In other words, add TouchID to 2015 model, add some USB-C ports and upgrade internals.

It's pretty astonishing how a company like this can go backwards in so many ways.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by everdrive on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:20AM (#20534170)
"No, I don't want to enable Siri. I never want to enable Siri. I wish I could modify the Touch Bar."
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by zeitg3ist on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:31AM (#20534238)
You can remove Siri from the touch bar, though!
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by everdrive on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:47AM (#20534343)
I had no idea. The option didn't originally show up in System preferences until I first modified the touch bar preferences via an Apps "view" menu. No idea why this is, but thanks for sending me looking.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by st3fan on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:56AM (#20534402)
If you disable Siri in the System Preferences, it will also not show up in the TouchBar.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by damon_c on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:21PM (#20538043)
I tried this and now if my pinky accidentally grazes past the Siri button with .0001 micrograms of force, it pops up a box asking me if I want to enable Siri.

I guess this is worse.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by everdrive on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:56AM (#20534812)
This one didn't work for me either. Siri had been disabled for quite a while. But, I'm on a work laptop, so perhaps IT caused the problem in the first place.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by bitwize on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:26PM (#20538084)
Go to System Preferences / Extensions / Touch Bar and say "Customize Control Strip...". You will be presented a panel of options for things to drag to your Touch Bar, and your current Touch Bar icons will "wiggle". Use the mouse to drag the Siri icon from the Touch Bar to the panel (yes, this is a thing, try it!) and presto -- you've removed Siri from the Touch Bar.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by damon_c on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:54PM (#20538246)
Yeah. This is so amazingly unintuitive but kind of cool... And it worked!

-edit: In Mojave, I found it in prefs/keyboard/Customize Touch bar

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by yehaaa on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:24AM (#20534196)
You rest your hands above the keboard? I don’t get most of the criticism of the touch bar except if someone miss the function keys. While it’s true that you need to take your eyes of the screen to use it, the same is true when using multiple screens, and it’s what it is, an extra screen.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by asark on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:43AM (#20534318)
I didn't know I did it until I used a touchbar MBP, but it turns out a couple of my right hand fingers drift up to the tops of the number keys when making certain chording presses, which is close enough to barely brush the edge of the touchbar. Took me weeks to figure out what was up—I had no idea I was doing it. iTunes kept opening for no reason, or sometimes other things would happen (but usually it was iTunes). I'm not about to re-train my 25 years of touch typing muscle memory to fit a silly single-vendor feature that's probably not gonna survive in anything like its current form anyway—and besides, I can't make it part of my regular workflow if I use an external keyboard any significant amount of time—so instead I set it to always show the same set of stuff (no per-app changing) and then remove almost everything from it, using spacers to make about 2/3 of it permanently blank.

It's the only way to make a new MBP usable for me. I have to all but disable the damn touchbar.

I also have to disable force-touch on the trackpad to be able to execute all but the shortest of click-and-drag operations. Disabling two of the headliner "advanced" UI features of new MBPs are now very early initial setup steps for me. Machine's toss-it-out-the-window frustrating if I don't.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by vanilla_nut on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:44AM (#20534722)
I also have a lot of trouble with the Force Touch trackpad! Everyone else I know seems to have no issue with it, but I'm constantly triggering Force Touch when I don't want to. Add in the fact that Force Touch is pretty useless on the mac (three finger click to define replaces literally my only use case) and it was easy enough to just disable it. I guess the fact that Apple is ditching 3D Touch on the iPhone might mean the end of Force Touch on the Macbook, too.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by IggleSniggle on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:43PM (#20538186)
I'm on the other end of this spectrum. I don't even click my trackpad, just use the very lightest of feather touches. I think the setting is called "Tap to click," and people that have problems with brushing up against their trackpad should not attempt it.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Ididntdothis on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:02AM (#20534439)
When I have the laptop in my lap the finger tips of my left hand often are above the keyboard. With function keys this is not much of a problem because you have to apply some pressure but the TouchBar is just too sensitive so I constantly trigger something.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by 1137 on Friday July 26, 2019 @03:56PM (#20537867)
My mid-2012 MBP is holding up just fine so I'll keep waiting and hoping. 7 years old, not a single flaw or hick-up. (Have two, one at work, one at home).
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by noja on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:12PM (#20537980)
Macs generally receive updates for seven years.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by knd775 on Friday July 26, 2019 @04:20PM (#20538033)
They generally receive updates until there is a reason why they can't.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by drevil-v2 on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:19AM (#20534538)
I find the Touch Bar extremely useful when the app supports it. JetBrains IDE’s have excellent touchbar support. Very easy to configure. All my most used shortcuts and macros are mapped, big productivity gains I feel.

haptic feedback would be even better

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by Cthulhu_ on Friday July 26, 2019 @09:30AM (#20534615)
How about buttons with miniature displays? Like that one attempt at making one with oled displays all these years ago by a design bureau.
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by jackpeterfletch on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:31AM (#20534242)
I can understand why they felt the need to change up how the function row worked.

From a UX perspective what they do is opaque and application dependent. To learn what they do in each context you do have to go out of your way.

Though I wonder if it'd have worked better if they were still tactile buttons individual panels on them, so the application can reprint them with their actual function name.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by kgwgk on Friday July 26, 2019 @08:44AM (#20534324)
I remember when some software came with stickers or cutouts to put on/around function keys.

Keys-with-panels may be too difficult/expensive and the single row is also more flexible (allows for sliders, for example). But I’ve not really used these keyboards, I don’t know how well do they work.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by mitchellgoffpc on Saturday July 27, 2019 @12:09AM (#20540341)
Yep, same exact thing keeps happening to me. I kinda can’t believe it never occurred to Apple to put haptic feedback in the touchbar, at least then you’d feel it when you accidentally press a button instead of wondering if you’re going insane because you keep unintentionally lowering the screen brightness
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by ble378 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @09:31AM (#20541948)
This. Especially frustrating when accidentally hitting Mission Control or Expose.

Would love to see the touch bar removed (keeping TouchID). Or at the very least, add haptic feedback like 3D Touch to stop gliding fingers from triggering the buttons.

Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by sdan on Friday July 26, 2019 @07:07PM (#20539118)
I'm glad I got the heap MBP in 2016 (with function keys).
Re:Apple expected to adopt keyboard with scissor mechanism f... by rajacombinator on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:11PM (#20538358)
I’d finally upgrade my 2013 model if they do this.