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Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by verisimilitudes on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @06:59PM (#19802521)
I agree that a necessity such as housing being treated as an investment is insane. I usually bring this up to people whenever housing is discussed.

Most people I talk to are more concerned with eventually renting out their homes they bought decades ago and using that to buy another house, though. I'm really inclined to believe renting homes shouldn't be legal, perhaps, because eventually you wind up with a situation where no one even has the option of buying their own house.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by djakjxnanjak on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:20PM (#19802667)
By renting a home, I can let somebody else tie up a million dollars in capital and all I have to pay them is a few thousand a month. This seems like a great deal for me, why do you want to ban me from engaging in this transaction?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by petra on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:49PM (#19802893)
Housing is such a big problem. And a collective thing.

The key to solving it is to make sure everyone is focused on affordable housing.

Once you got a impactful part of society focused on something else, for example extracting rent - you've lost.

That's why Germany managed to create a working, affordable housing system after ww2.

And that's why Israel, in it's early years, managed to do the same, and offer affordable housing to everyone,while working under dire economic situation.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by djakjxnanjak on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:33PM (#19803260)
I think the solution is clear. Legalize tall buildings. Requiring someone to own or rent thousands of square feet of land to get access to hundreds of square feet of housing is guaranteed to lead to shortages.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by thatfrenchguy on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:08PM (#19803515)
And abolish prop 13 in California and other tax pyramid schemes ? Especially for entities that are not people.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by r00fus on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:47PM (#19804144)
I wonder why even with a super majority, Dems still haven’t raised split-roll for removing prop13 for corporations.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by Ericson2314 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:22AM (#19804701)
A very good question!
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by zzzzzzzza on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:07PM (#19803903)
Land value taxes. What's better than legalizing tall buildings, is incentivizing tall buildings.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by grogenaut on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:15PM (#19803564)
correct me if I'm wrong but I heard it's very difficult to find any short term transitory housing in Germany, I had heard that short leases / rentals were 2 year terms. This makes it a lot harder to move into an area and decide where you want to live which in turn makes mobility more difficult.

However this info may be out of date / incorrect.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by thorwasdfasdf on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:06PM (#19803040)
we need housing to be affordable (for everyone), not affordable housing.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by jlokier on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:41PM (#19803746)
So I pay a few thousand a month; it's cheaper than the few thousand the owner paid back when that was the price (it's only a notional "million" in capital because they bought it decades ago for a few low thousands.)

In exchange for my illusory benefit of paying "only" a few thousand every month, I get:

- To keep the remaining 30% of my salary (as ever rising rents creep past 70% of take-home).

- Enjoy the 10% yearly rent raise.

- No security, can be kicked out any time (it happens every few years, sometimes a week before Christmas).

- No permission to paint anything.

- Forbidden to have pets of any kind. Could move, but can't find anywhere within commuting distance that allows pets and is in the same price bracket.

- Can't change anything structural, like a window for a nicer one.

- Can't change the locks to something I'd like.

- Can't try out the fancy new home control tech (Nest etc)

- Can't fit solar panels, even if subsidised by a power company, as the offer is only to homeowners.

- Forbidden to "run a business" from home (it says in the contract), and forbidden to register a company at my home address.

- No guests allowed to stay over longer than X days.

- When I hit retirement age and soon after that run out of money, I'll be evicted and homeless, because pension isn't enough to pay the rent, and rent is rising faster than inflation anyway. State benefits exist for pensioners, but the housing component intended to cover rent is widely known to be less than real rents.

So fair enough, I avoid buying somewhere with a million in capital.

Instead I spend more than a million in rent over a working lifetime. Sure would have been nice to live in a stable home during it, to enjoy the freedom to do what I want in the home, and to stay there at the end.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by em-bee on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:57AM (#19805138)
this all depends on the countrys laws. in germany you can't be evicted even if you fail to pay your rent. the landlord has to go through a lot of effort before they can kick you out.

also, the landlord has NO right to enter the property unless there is an emergency, and even then they may have to break the lock to do it because the lock may be changed, and the landlord may not have any keys.

we also did replace windows in one place we lived, and completely rewired the electricity (which included putting new pipes into the walls to hold the wires). it was an old building, and the change was made in consultation with the landlord, but there is no reason it can't be done.

apart from that any change that doesn't change the structure and stability of the house is possible, and any change that an easily be reversed in most cases doesn't even need permission of the landlord.

in another apartment we added a hardwood floor on top of the floor that was there. a sheet of foam and the hardwood on top. for the first room we paid a contractor, for the others we did it ourselves.

if my pension is not enough the government will chip in with housing allowance to make sure i can pay my rent. at worst they will ask me to move into a smaller home if i happen to occupy a place large enough for all my kids who have long moved out and no longer need the space.

i won't be living on the street and i enjoy the freedom to move whenever i like without being tied to a particular location.

also, being a landlord and renting out your property in germany is so onerous that it's not worth it unless you are doing it as a full time business.

that adds a further point in favor of renting because you can't just buy a property and rent it out without putting a major effort into maintenance and paying for upkeep.

finally, as long as you own property you generally don't qualify for financial support, should you ever need it

it's all a matter of perspective.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by castlecrasher2 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:34PM (#19804437)
I guess the question is are you willing to concede that you owning a home is incompatible with you living in SV?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by jlokier on Thursday May 02, 2019 @09:24AM (#19807617)
I personally don't live in SV and don't expect to.

My experiences are in various places, all outside the US, and some of them in "ordinary" towns that don't have unusually high prices.

Besides, where I am, renting is often more expensive than buying, at current mortgage rates. (It was the other way around when I looked into it about 17 years ago).

House prices are going up for buying and renting in tandem, with some lag either way depending on area. Do renters get a better deal as a result of those rising prices? I don't think so.

Why not buy then, you say? The gatekeeper for most people is limited access to mortgages, not the cost, because perversely they pay more in rent than they would on a mortgage for the same place, and to rub salt in the wound, the money they pay in rent consistently for years is ignored for the purpose of assessing their creditworthiness and affordability.

Not that opening that gate would help for long, because prices would adjust upwards if more people obtained access to mortgages, but it is still perverse when we describe buying as an unreasonable aspiration in an area, when people are paying more in rent than the cost of buying.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by urda on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:46PM (#19804513)
That's odd, because I know many (including myself) that own property in SV and other high-expense cities on the West Coast.

So I don't think that's true.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by castlecrasher2 on Monday May 06, 2019 @01:04PM (#19841400)
My post was directed at the long-winded rant that seemed to boil down to "I can't afford a home in SV," not everyone in general.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by wonthegame on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:50PM (#19803384)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking may help you understand the parent comments train of thought
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by LetItSnow on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:08PM (#19803063)
In steeply appreciating markets, those people didn't tie up a million dollars. Just five or so years ago, a million dollar house sold for $500,000 (in some markets).
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by munk-a on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:52PM (#19803401)
A steeply appreciating market is either an indication of a bubble or that the previous valuation of assets was highly inaccurate. They're market inefficiencies that, sure, people will try and arbitrage, but they're not the norm... except that the housing market is really weird due to the incredible illiquidity and non-divisibility of assets.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by zxcmx on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:12PM (#19803095)
And maybe only put $25,000 down....
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by elyobo on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:16PM (#19804315)
I think GP meant letting (although that would have the same effect).
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by MagicPropmaker on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:35PM (#19802768)
It his gateway to having the Government own all property and no private ownership of land.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:43PM (#19802839)
Having the option to rent is a gateway to having the government own all property? You're going to have to explain your logic a bit, because so far your position sounds ridiculously wrong.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by dgzl on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:00PM (#19802999)
I think they were talking about the GP's hypothetical scenario, where renting would be llegal.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:43PM (#19803331)
So the claim is that verisimilitude's suggestion, that renting would be illegal, is a gateway the government owning all property and private ownership being illegal? I don't see how it's reasonable to suppose that would be the result. I also don't see how MagicPropmaker thinks that's what verisimilitude was thinking.

Am I missing something?

[Edit: I mean, I can see that renting being illegal is a restriction on use of property. That's a long distance from private property itself being illegal, though, and I don't see any reason to suppose that would be the end result - either the desired end result or the actual one.]

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by max76 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:42PM (#19802833)
> I'm really inclined to believe renting homes shouldn't be legal

Either own a home or be homeless. That's more humane. /s

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:52PM (#19802923)
Housing doesn’t have to be a commodity at all. It can easily be an unconditional human right.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by hsitz on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:55PM (#19803831)
>Housing doesn’t have to be a commodity at all. It can easily be an unconditional human right.

I don't think you know what a commodity is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

In fact, I think it would make more sense to say, "As a practical matter, housing could only be made available as an unconditional human right if there is [at least a subset of all] housing which IS a commodity."

In strictest terms, real estate can never be a commodity because it is all unique. Commodities have to have "full or substantial fungibility", which can't exist when housing occupies a fixed physical location, which is unique. (So perhaps some housing could be a "commodity" even in a strict sense if it could be moved around. . . Think mobile homes.)

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:07PM (#19804264)
Some people are picky about which brand of bottled water to buy, but people still have a right to water.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by forrestthewoods on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:53PM (#19803404)
> Housing doesn’t have to be a commodity at all. It can easily be an unconditional human right.

An unconditional human right... where? Does everyone have a right to housing in the uber popular San Francisco? Does everyone have a right to beachfront property in Hawaii? Or if you don't have a house are you provided one in North Dakota?

More people want to live in San Francisco than there are houses. There's going to be winners and losers. I would love to radically increase the number of immigrants we let into the country. Where do they have a right to housing? If that housing doesn't exist who is obligated to build it to give away?

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by wpietri on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:21PM (#19803615)
We have these sorts of discussion for any positive right. If people have a right to food, what kind of food? If people have a right to medical care, what kind and how much? If people have a right to education, what does that mean in practice?

We also have similar discussions around many negative rights. E.g., in the US 4th Amendment rights are subject to all sorts of practical limitations.

That rights are complicated to implement doesn't mean that they shoudn't be rights.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by pascalxus on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:22AM (#19804979)
I agree with the notion that every human being should have a fundamental right to shelter. Maybe not in the location of their choosing, but somewhere on this d* planet there really ought to be a place where they can be.

The solution is, to give a plot of land to every human being that turns 18. there's enough land to do this. In most cases they wont want to live exactly in that spot. but, they can sell it or rent it out and use that money to move somewhere else. That's right folks, this is one of those situations where we can actually create wealth out of thin air, just by using up all that land that's been locked up for so long.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:08PM (#19803512)
Well the answer is to build more housing, and companies should start elsewhere if there isn’t the housing or talent in the area. Maybe I could move out of SF then...
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:46PM (#19804509)
Furthermore I hypothesize people would be motivated by bad conditions to either collectively invest in better housing or to move to where there is housing. This just removes wealth from that equation.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by em-bee on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:23AM (#19805245)
in germany housing IS an unconditional human right.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by max76 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:57PM (#19802975)
Is there a practical example of a housing not being a commodity that results in favorable housing conditions?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by k3nt0456 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:13PM (#19803557)
Singapore is the closest success story I can think of.

Requirements: - be a citizen - get married

The government will then build a flat for you and hand you the keys 5 years later for about a fourth of the private market price.

Of course you need an economy that can pay for all this, so it won't be universally applicable

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by closeparen on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:01PM (#19803870)
What do you do while unmarried or in the first 5 years?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by CydeWeys on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:29PM (#19804034)
You continue living with your family.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by closeparen on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:50AM (#19805100)
You conduct your relationships and the first few years of your marriage within earshot of your parents?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:57AM (#19805140)
This seems cultural, and before the invention of privacy this was the norm.

EDIT: I thought that was a meme and it's not—i'm referring to the growth of the middle class and multi-room houses.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by CydeWeys on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:58PM (#19811344)
That's how the rest of the world does it, so, yes? Also note that pre-marital relationships are often not very common.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by apexalpha on Thursday May 02, 2019 @05:37AM (#19806161)
The alternative is a market based housing market such as another city state has: Hong Kong.

I think everyone in Hong Kong would happily live with their parents for 5 years if it means they can buy their own flat afterwards.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:25PM (#19803204)
I do not, but I know for sure commodifying housing doesn’t create favorable housing conditions.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by closeparen on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:10PM (#19803922)
So if we look at places in the US with more favorable housing conditions, we should find housing allocation done primarily by the state?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:30PM (#19804036)
Where do you claim there are favorable conditions? As far as I am aware the homeless are everywhere; some places are simply impossible to live without shelter due to exposure.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by closeparen on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:48AM (#19805091)
Housing affordability and degree of government involvement are both on a spectrum; you don't need extremes to see if there is a relationship or which way it runs.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:54AM (#19805128)
Affordable housing is code for unaffordable housing. Otherwise it'd just be housing. You're very correct it's on a spectrum—we're between being entirely homeless and entirely housed. Only one end of that spectrum is acceptable. Housing should be free to use (obviously not free to build and maintain). Everyone needs it, and we all have incentive to reduce costs—except landlords.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by closeparen on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:06AM (#19805179)
>Only one end of that spectrum is acceptable

Which makes it all the more important that you correctly identify and apply the mechanisms that push a place towards one end or the other.

>Everyone needs it, and we all have incentive to reduce costs—except landlords.

64% of housing units are owner-occupied [0]. These households are not landlords, yet they are incentivized to raise property values.

[0] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605217

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:36AM (#19805317)
Right, so the market is what makes housing unaffordable. Making housing a guaranteed human right will make it entirely affordable—at least on the end of using it. Housing is entirely a cost that should be amortized over those able to afford and/or build it.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by tehjoker on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:36PM (#19803287)
In socialist countries. In the Soviet Union, rent was 2% of take home pay. Many of these countries started out poor, so the housing quality may have been commeasurate with the development of the country. In the US, as a material issue, we could easily provide decent affordable housing to everyone by destroying the market and having the public march in and build.

One system that is being tried in some region in China is you buy your house from the government and sell it back. This keeps things democratic and market free. Landlords should be cast into the dustbin of history.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:06PM (#19803490)
We have, I believe, about 3x the empty units as we have homeless people in this country. Sure there are distribution issues, but it’s a matter of political will.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by Camillo on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:19PM (#19803598)
Political will to redistribute the people? You must know that that's how it worked/works in socialist countries. You still need a permit in China to move to another city, AFAIK.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by Dylan16807 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:16AM (#19805535)
People will move if you offer them somewhere to live. What's needed is political will to use the housing and make the offer.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by stale2002 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:20PM (#19803154)
Or we could just allow people to rent?

Renting is awesome!

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:24PM (#19803197)
I don’t like the homeless outside my window, so I’ll pass on this opportunity to give all my money to someone who does jack shit for my life.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by stale2002 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:57PM (#19803436)
Ok, and why do you want to take away my right to rent a house?

Why do you want to force me to buy a house? I don't want to do that. I want to rent one.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:09PM (#19803517)
You can give money to whomever you want. Just don’t withhold shelter from the homeless just because they don’t have money.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by stale2002 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:38AM (#19805628)
That's what the government is for.

They should feel free to purchase and house whoever they want with their tax dollars.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @11:21AM (#19808795)
So long as the only option to sell is to the government this could be a short term solution to bring the market rate down, especially if we can modify eminent domain to reimburse well below market rate.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by stale2002 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:00PM (#19809961)
Or how about just not steal stuff from people and have the government pay market rate, using taxes?

As long as we are taking stuff from people, what makes the most sense is to so it equally through taxes, and compensate people fairly by purchasing houses.

Or even better, the government could pay money to build more houses.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @11:05PM (#19815171)
Landlords have been taking cash from the pockets of people who actually labor for millennia. Stealing? More like emancipating.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by dredmorbius on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:48PM (#19803779)
By what mechanism will that be accomplished?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @11:44PM (#19804499)
Electoralism, ideally. Traditionally, removing landlords has been very violent, and I would like to avoid that. The US guarantees market value for eminent domain, which is a sweet deal compared to, say, what’s happening in Berlin right now.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by dredmorbius on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:10AM (#19804635)
I'm not familiar with the term.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:39AM (#19805332)
It generally means working for change through elections both through electing representatives and plebiscites.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by dredmorbius on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:08AM (#19805494)
The tendency of existing property-asset-wealth-power dynamics makes this at best difficult. See e.g., California Prop. 13.

Wedging that initiative is a very uphill battle.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by drb91 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @11:26AM (#19808861)
Agreed.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by dredmorbius on Friday May 03, 2019 @01:35PM (#19820426)
I wouldn't mind seeing the change, to be clear. Engineering it is the problem.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by skybrian on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:45PM (#19803761)
Renting or owning doesn't matter. The house is occupied. Other people have to live somewhere else.

As I've written elsewhere, a housing market has much in common with a traffic jam or a crowded bus. Everyone takes up space, so everyone is part of the problem, based on how much space they take up. The only way to fix it is to make more space or convince people to go elsewhere.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by Broken_Hippo on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:57AM (#19805986)
I'm really inclined to believe renting homes shouldn't be legal, perhaps, because eventually you wind up with a situation where no one even has the option of buying their own house.

I disagree. Home renting has all sorts of societal benefits and allows folks to be mobile when needed. Perhaps you are just going to be in the area for a couple of years, yet would like to have space for your dog to run, for example. Or need to divide your large, old house up so you don't have to move. It also means young folks can move out of the house and that everyone gets the choice of sharing walls with a neighbor.

Money and income is a much bigger indicator of whether or not someone can buy a house. If slews of people cannot save up money for a down payment, these folks cannot do such a thing. Bad zoning laws and other such things naturally influence it as well.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:53PM (#19802932)
So if renting shouldn’t be legal, what do people do who can’t afford a home or who don’t want to buy one?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by yeahitslikethat on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:58PM (#19802980)
Prices will decline until sellers find buyers just like every other market.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:21PM (#19803164)
And you still need a down payment. Are you suggesting that everyone should either own a home or be homeless? What about college students? Should they also buy houses just for the amount of times they are in college?

If I move for a job, should I immediately buy a house? On the other hand what if I know I don’t plan to be in an area for long? Should I buy a house for a year or two? What happens when I am ready to move and can’t find a seller?

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by yeahitslikethat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:58AM (#19804880)
You only need a down payment because houses are not affordable. I've bought all my houses with cash.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by scarface74 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:05AM (#19805475)
The average American can’t handle a $400 emergency. How cheap does a house have to be to make it affordable for most Americans?
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by inflatableDodo on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:00PM (#19803453)
Not if you take property off the market when it goes down.

>"The property developer behind the conversion of central London’s Centre Point office skyscraper into multimillion-pound luxury apartments has given up trying to sell the flats after receiving too many “detached from reality” lowball offers.

>Mike Hussey, chief executive of the developer Almacantar, said the company had decided to halt formal sales of the flats in the 1960s brutalist tower, now called Centre Point Residences, rather than slash prices.

>The company said concerns about Brexit and possible tax increases on overseas investors were encouraging potential buyers to make offers well below the asking price. The reception at the redeveloped Centre Point building in London’s West End.

>The decision to halt sales means about half of the tower’s 82 flats, which range from £1.8m for a small one-bedroom apartment to £55m for the two-storey five-bedroom penthouse, will now lie empty, adding to a glut of unsold ultra-luxury property across London."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/31/brutalist-m...

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by yeahitslikethat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:59AM (#19804891)
I really love reading that. Thank you.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by inflatableDodo on Thursday May 02, 2019 @05:01PM (#19812869)
Oh, there's more. Centre Point has been a continual shitshow since inception. It is a case study in the kind of people who mistake their own snobbery for business acumen;

>"The building is 117 m (385 ft) high, has 34 floors and 27,180 m2 (292,563 sq ft) of floor space. Constructed from 1963 to 1966, it was one of the first skyscrapers in London and as of 2009 is the city's joint 27th tallest building. It stood empty from its completion until 1975, and was briefly occupied by housing activists in 1974. Since 1995 it has been a Grade II listed building. In 2015 it was converted from office space to luxury flats."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Point

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by pathseeker on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:24PM (#19802691)
>because eventually you wind up with a situation where no one even has the option of buying their own house.

How did you make it do this conclusion? Renting is legal all over the place and that scenario has happened literally nowhere.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by yeahitslikethat on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:59PM (#19802994)
Except nyc, sf, LA, seattle, vancouver, ... etc where home affordability means multiple families in one condo.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:46PM (#19803352)
While true, that's completely orthogonal to pathseeker's point, which is about legality rather than affordability.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by yeahitslikethat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:54AM (#19804860)
Because no one in those areas can buy their own house.

I'm supporting the point pathseeker was arguing against.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by Zimahl on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:56PM (#19802965)
In most cases, a home isn't going to be rented forever. At some point properties get liquidated by the owner. If it's an individual, most likely at retirement or when they don't feel like managing the properties anymore. For a company, it's when it no longer profitable or when the company goes under.

My point is that properties, even rental houses, turn over at some point and there is typically enough turnover that it's probably not going to tie up affect the long term percentage of homes for sale.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by neltnerb on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:18PM (#19803133)
The population is getting older. Right now those homes are being rented out, inevitably raising prices since some portion of the rent is profit. This is likely not a long term situation, making investing in houses seem very risky indeed. It's probably priced in though.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by AznHisoka on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:31PM (#19802739)
If nobody rented their house, wouldnt that reduce the supply of inexpensive housing? Now you are left with renting from mostly apartment buildings, and rents will probably go up due to the shorter supply.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by zanny on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:27PM (#19803222)
Probably the greatest lie of the boomer generation was the presumption that quarter acre single family stick homes were ever going to be, in the long run, "inexpensive".

The externalities have come back to bite society at large in numerous forms. The unmanageable maintenance debt on the infrastructure to support them. The dependence on private enterprise storefronts to supply developments that can close up shop at any point and leave whole regions without access to a proper grocery store. The ongoing maintenance cost upkeeping all the land and structures. The time lost commuting around areas of extraordinarily low population density. The structural macroeconomic expenses in building supply chains to support such a spread out population. The social isolation and resulting depression that plagues the society as people silo themselves off behind their picket fences.

The broader trend must be towards density. That doesn't mean to compromise privacy, or even necessarily individual usable space - but it does mean a move away from stick houses with 4 lanes in between towards 4+ stories with bus and train access.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by esotericn on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:45PM (#19803345)
Why a a dichotomy between a decent house, and a 'stack em high' mindset?

Terraced housing as seen all over Europe could house single families without issue. London is full of these things.

100sqm is really quite a decently sized home with gardens front and back. That's already a 10x density improvement.

Not everyone wants to live in an apartment surrounded by other people on all sides with no control over the place they live in (because it's all outsourced to a "management company" e.g. nonsense bureaucracy).

As far as I can tell all you're going to do by building tons of flats is entrench some sort of class system. Outside of elite city center locations only proles will be living in apartments.

Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by fjsolwmv on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:15PM (#19803565)
100sqm is undesirable to Americans. We need our living rooms and our man caves and our bedrooms for each child and our back yards.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by CydeWeys on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:34PM (#19804064)
100 m^2 is 1,076 ft^2. You're right that it's not large by American standards, but it's also not that small. And if you got a substantially shorter commute out of it, it might appeal to a lot of people.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by jacques_chester on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @10:22PM (#19803997)
America's most populous city is New York.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @09:17PM (#19803576)
Houses are inexpensive in many areas of the country outside of the HN bubble.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by Swizec on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @08:45PM (#19803347)
One apartment building makes up for, what, a hundred single family tiny suburbia houses? I’ll bet on apartment buildings providing more supply.
Re:Housing Can’t Be Both Affordable and a Good Investment (2... by test6554 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:32AM (#19805291)
People should be able to do as they please with their property. - capitalism