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Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:06AM (#18113210)
This is an important issue cryptographers and security minded people often overlook: the strongest cryptography is irrelevant if it opens you to such social harassment. What we need is practical cryptography.

I have found practical success by booting from an encrypted Linux partition that has absolutely nothing relevant on it, with a weak password I can always enter when requested by big guys with guns. Unbeknown to them on the same partition there sits another encrypted volume, at some offset from the outer's partition start. If I fail to enter the correct password for the outer partition, Ubuntu drops into the command line of the initrd, that is equiped with all the tools you need to mount the real, offset partition:

  cryptsetup -o 100000000 create boot /dev/sdc3
So instead of having a nice GUI into which you directly enter the uber-secret password, you press enter a few times in the GUI, drop to command line, issue a single command and only then enter the uber-secret password. A mild nuisance in your bootup process, once you get the hang of it.

It's impossible for any court forensic team, let alone an airport goon, to prove there is actually another partition inside the outer encrypted partition, unless you mount common volumes and cross-contaminate. An important caveat is to properly defragment the outer partition and fiddle with the offset and the size of the inner partition to prevent any conflicts, then avoid writing in the outer partition.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gsnedders on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:20AM (#18113415)
> It's impossible for any court forensic team, let alone an airport goon, to prove there is actually another partition inside the outer encrypted partition, unless you mount common volumes and cross-contaminate. An important caveat is to properly defragment the outer partition and fiddle with the offset and the size of the inner partition to avoid any conflicts, then avoid writing in the outer partition.

Customs staff typically don't know to prove there is, they just need reasonable suspicion to seize goods for further investigation. The fact you've booted into a 50GB partition on a 500GB disk may well be considered reasonable suspicion to seize the goods for the sake of further investigation.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:32AM (#18113586)
You are correct. I've simplified a bit: I boot from a 50GB decoy root partition that also has a 450GB decoy data partition along side it, both encrypted with the same weak password. This is a standard configuration and the machine works perfectly fine, you can write inside the decoy root as much as you want, as Linux would do when it boots. The data partition is largely empty and you haven't written large files there for some time, but that should not be suspicious by itself.

In the free space of the large data partition there lives the sensitive hidden root. It's maybe 250GB, with a 100GB offset from the start of the decoy data, and 50GB guard space at the back, where ext4 writes all sorts of crap. So you get to use about 50% of your raw disk capacity inside the sensitive environment, as a single encrypted root.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by ldarby on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:49PM (#18115624)
There is a risk of them looking at the raw data of the drive and asking what all the random data at the end of it is.

The beatings will continue until you decrypt it. Hopefully you can and it's not actually just random data...

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:34PM (#18117385)
The outer volume is itself encrypted so if you correctly initialized it as recommended, the raw disk should be full of random bits. When read from within the encrypted outer volume, these decrypt to random data as well, so there should be no way to detect the inner volume, either by looking at the raw disk sectors or at the decrypted outer volume sectors. Most importantly, you have the plausible deniability that the disk looks exactly as it should per recommendations of security experts, that the boot-loader and initrd are the stock versions that exist on any other Ubuntu machine with encrypted volumes etc.

Another caveat here is that the inner volume must use the implicit encryption parameters of cryptsetup, or that the correct parameters are supplied in the command line. A LUKS header should absolutely not be used, as it will be plainly visible inside the partition, and would indicate, at the very least, that some other encrypted data was stored in the past on the disk leading to new questions about its password etc., killing plausible deniability.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by ldarby on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @06:27PM (#18126228)
See the cryptsetup FAQ 5.2 (https://gitlab.com/cryptsetup/cryptsetup/wikis/FrequentlyAsk...):

"This means that if you have a large set of random-looking data, they can already lock you up."

In the UK, with RIPA legislation, there is a real risk of someone dropping a USB key full of random data on you, telling the cops there's child porn in it, then you get locked up for 5 years for failing to decrypt it.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @01:36PM (#18132625)
I've read the FAQ item and I'm sorry to say that it seems written by somebody talking out of their behind, giving legal advice to boot.

Sure, once in the hands of the Russian FSB, Italian Mafia or Nicolas Maduro, any detectable amount of random data could result in torture - just to be on the safe side, maybe there is a hidden volume there after all.

But in any state where rule of law is observed, the prosecution must establish probable cause and, once in court, prove beyond reasonable doubt that the illegal act was indeed committed - in this case, failure to disclose the encryption key of a locked volume. So there must exist corroborating evidence that should exclude any reasonable accidental or normal situation that could produce the random data. For example, a border agent could testify that he saw illegal material on your device's screen and a random file could be found in your home directory. In your device history, traces to a missing volume or partition could remain etc. The defense can easily explain away a partition initialized to random, if that's what standard system tools produce in their normal configuration and no other corroborating evidence exits.

A LUKS header is a clear indication that another encryption configuration was/is used on the computer, so you would then be compelled to give explanation about it's presence, it's password, the provenance of the laptop etc. The explanations given in the FAQ (experiment, random swap) are unconvincing if they are not corroborated by other patterns, for example modification timestamps on /etc/fstab and /etc/crypttab and so on.

So the absence of the LUKS header really does fill a practical gap, and it happens that most legal systems today are squeezing harder and harder into that gap. Unlike the dubious claims in that FAQ entry, Truecrypt hidden volumes actually have established legal precedent.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by Laforet on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:27PM (#18118597)
TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt can do this for you with the intention that the existence of a hidden partition is plausibly deniable unless the correct key is provided. The only downside to this is gross inefficiency, you may only be able to get 20GB useful space out of a 500GB disc.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by oconnor663 on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:26AM (#18113483)
I think the parent comment is describing a scheme where the outer partition contains the inner one, so both are large. As the parent notes, this is dangerous, and you have to be careful not to overwrite inner data if you boot the outer os.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by zymhan on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:30AM (#18113544)
It is also Linux, so there are probably three different ways to make partitions appear to be a different size or reserve certain blocks in the partition.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by zymhan on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:11AM (#18113283)
That is the same approach used by TrueCrypt (RIP) for it's "hidden volume", to solve pretty much the same problem.

https://www.truecrypt71a.com/documentation/plausible-deniabi...

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by teddyh on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:21PM (#18115356)
> TrueCrypt (RIP)

Continued by VeraCrypt: https://www.veracrypt.fr/

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by sjroot on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:11AM (#18113292)
Love this. Isn't there also something for Android that presents a "safe" account when you type in a particular passcode?

This regulation is clearly made by people who don't understand the technology and capabilities of these devices. A waste of time and money; who is going to train customs officials to search through phones?

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by reaperducer on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:37PM (#18114901)
As cheap as burner phones are these days, it seems the easiest route is to buy a decoy Android and fill it with plausible-looking innocent data, and leave your real phone home when going on vacation.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by brokenmachine on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @01:22AM (#18127799)
I don't understand why you think there's a need to fill it with plausible-looking innocent data.

Why can't you just take a new phone and say, "it's empty because I got a new phone"?

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by wool_gather on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @08:14AM (#18120783)
> This regulation is clearly made by people who don't understand the technology and capabilities...

Staying ahead of them with a technological trick is only a partial, temporary solution, though. Eventually you can expect that there will be an attack, whether purchased (see GreyKey) or legislated, on the workaround. What should happen is that the whole arms race should be nipped in the bud by outlawing this kind of data collection coercion. But I don't have a lot of hope about getting that genie back into the bottle.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by Shivetya on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:26AM (#18113479)
the end result will be any system which is not familiar to the officials who are doing the checks or compatible with their scanning technology will simply be confiscated upon entry.

the only safe harbor will be one you don't carry with you except as a device which can guarantee secure access to that remote information.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by ergothus on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:45AM (#18113729)
I recall a story from long ago: user is requested to boot their laptop by airline security.

They boot, which drops to a linux (bsd?) command line. Agent is not pleased. User sets PS1 so the prompt now looks like DOS. Agent is satisfied (they may just have been satisfied that the device worked, but this story dates from when a DOS prompt was a believable thing for someone to recognize as "computer" )

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by nil_pointer on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:29PM (#18114206)
This story doesn't sound beleivable. As soon as the agent starts attempting commands, they'd see it's not DOS.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by sjwright on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:50PM (#18114423)
But they saw it was a working computer. Airline security don't care what operating system your computer runs, they care if the laptop has been hollowed out and filled with C4.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by ams6110 on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:20PM (#18118572)
Of course these days you could have a Raspberry Pi in a corner of the laptop case and the rest of it filled with whatever contraband, and still present a "working" computer to the security screener.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by sjwright on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @08:43AM (#18129605)
Nobody would seriously claim that airport security is an effective way of stopping determined people. It is a deterrent that works to catch thoroughly stupid people and to make smart people dwell on the anxiety of getting caught.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by marcosdumay on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:35PM (#18118637)
Nowadays your laptop would go through an X-ray machine with improved explosives detection.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by coldacid on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @01:40PM (#18132659)
Yep. I've never had to demonstrate that my devices are real at the security checkpoints getting into airports, I just put them in the trays and the X-ray scanners tell the agents that they're safe.

Now, dealing with the customs/pre-clearance checkpoints, that's another matter.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:28AM (#18113518)
To be very honest, I find the methodology very similar to what drug trafficker would do to hide their drugs. And I don't think this method will end well for all parties either way.

If it works, customs officers cannot find actual illegal contents, and criminals walk free through customs.

If customs officers somehow detects you are doing this, you risk obstructing security measures.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:47AM (#18113758)
But that's true for all encryption and privacy technology, it has dual use. We as a society must find the right balance and say, ok, there's no reasonable justification for owning 1 pound of plutonium, but there is a legitimate case for high encryption and privacy.

This forum largely believes that the balance struck by New Zealand - that you don't have the right to data privacy when traveling - is completely unacceptable, and as technologists we try to find technical countermeasures.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:54AM (#18113847)
Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead:

What if we have a "physical encryption" technology that allows encrypting physical objects so that X-ray scanners, drug detecting methods or metal detectors cannot see through them?

Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever encrypted inside?

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by 8ytecoder on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:42PM (#18114331)
Physically, there's constraint on what I am exposing. Digitally, it's my entire life. The bar for a search must be much higher to reflect that. Most people here are not used to dealing with a corrupt officer. Imagine a scenario where you own a property and the police officer next door desperately wants it and he finds a loop hole to block your access to the street (and does more horrible things to get you to vacate your house). Now imagine what he'll do if he had your phone and work backwards from there - even innocent things like a flirty message with someone can potentially ruin someone's life - it doesn't have to be illegal.

The justice system and separation of powers acts as checks and balances from anyone (good or bad) being harassed unless there's a strong reason why. Get a warrant with a limited scope and then do the search.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by reaperducer on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:46PM (#18114988)
Imagine...

No need to imagine. There are innumerable cases over the years where cops have turned into stalkers backed by the power of the government when their girlfriends dump them. It happened to one of my ex-es, but I've seen it in newspapers dozens of times over the years.

The problem is that cops are still people. And people are often messy, emotional, irregular, obsessive, mean, or just have a bad day and need someone to take it out on.

Wetware will be wetware. All we can do is advocate for better training and smarter policies.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:05PM (#18113955)
There's no need to go to such wild hypotheticals if what you want to say is that you support border data searches - it's your right to have that political position. I simply have the opposite position.

Given some hypothetical new technology with vast societal implications, I would be forced to carefully reconsider that position, but in this case I believe privacy is a basic human right that does not simply disappear at the borders.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:19PM (#18114091)
Of course I respect your opinions. I am just giving a thought experiment to introduce a different perspective and way of thinking.

And I am more than happy to learn that you would re-consider your position given such hypothetical situation.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by ehrtt on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:12PM (#18114018)
Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "brain encryption" technology that allows encrypting your brain so that brain scanners, thought detecting methods or emotion detectors cannot see through it?

Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever is encrypted inside?

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:15PM (#18114045)
Of course they should be allowed to do so. That would eradicate drug trafficking and cross-border terrorism.

I would say the benefit is too good, weighing against privacy.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:34PM (#18114262)
Actually, it would simply make terrorists avoid official border crossings. They could, for example, pay a human trafficker $2000 to get them over the border with Mexico.

Of course, you would then request for brain scanning technology to be more widely employed and that brain scanners be installed in the subway, on buses, gas stations and any other place drug dealers and terrorists could happen to go by. I think we all know what is the end for this line of reasoning.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:42PM (#18114333)
You know I used to question why on earth would Trump want to "build a wall". But I think your comment (along with the previous comments) somehow made a good justification for it.

Anyway, it is quite apparent that we have fundamentally different views on these issues, so let's agree to disagree and call it a day.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by malnourish on Monday October 01, 2018 @03:29PM (#18115970)
Unfortunately your views are fundamentally opposed to what most people (at the very least here) would define as freedom and civil rights.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:42PM (#18118453)
Judging from the negative scores, you are right.

Does that mean I am going to self-sensor my views to avoid losing karma? No. You have your rights to disagree, I have my rights to express my views.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by zo1 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:03AM (#18118714)
>"I have my rights to express my views. "

Only if you don't mind the downvotes. For some odd reason, these 'imaginary points' end up causing me to self-censor anyways.

On further-thought, it makes me think it's just something built into us. We seek social/group approval, and it makes us regress to the mean when it comes to thought/opinion. However, I don't think it's the right way for our brains to be wired, especially with social media exposing us to the entire world.

And now with this border-search thing. If it means that the state end up having access to all your social media accounts, that now span decade+ timeframes, not even time and personal growth/regret can protect us.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by malnourish on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:50AM (#18122761)
I don't advocate for downvoting those whom I disagree with, if it were up to me you wouldn't be downvoted.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by wool_gather on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @08:20AM (#18120826)
Yeah, it would be preferable if your comments weren't voted down here because of disagreement with the view you express, as long as it's expressed clearly and constructively (which it is).
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Monday October 01, 2018 @04:12PM (#18116393)
> That would eradicate drug trafficking and cross-border terrorism.

No, it wouldn't. One key weakness of totalitarian systems (and that is what you are advocating for) is always that the massive power of the system attracts criminals and corruption into the system and has a major risk of the criminals ending up using the totalitarian power for themselves. If you think there is some sort of absolute solution to a social problem, you are ignoring that implementing the solution does itself build on society. If society isn't free of crime, your solution won't be free of crime either, and if society if free of crime, you don't need the solution. And if your solution isn't free of crime (so, you have corrupt police officers or judges or whatever), then you have thus given criminals the option to use a massively powerful weapon for themselves in some ways.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by mito88 on Monday October 01, 2018 @05:53PM (#18117152)
"the more corrupt the state, the more numerous the law."

Tacitus

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by malnourish on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:28PM (#18114191)
It wouldn't stop those things though, there will always be a weak point. What it would do is erode the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens (something that terrorists seem to want).

Furthermore, if you want to stop drug trafficking, legalize them.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:36PM (#18114281)
> It wouldn't stop those things though, there will always be a weak point.

If that is your argument, then I don't think anyone can convince you.

> What it would do is erode the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens (something that terrorists seem to want).

That's not how Wikipedia (and I myself) define terrorism:

> Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by malnourish on Monday October 01, 2018 @03:28PM (#18115960)
I can be convinced when the argument is good. I don't think a nebulous, "give up your privacy for some possible safety gains" is such an argument. I equate privacy with freedom, and I don't want to give up my freedom.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by AsyncAwait on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:32PM (#18114242)
Digital objects are different in that they usually contain your private memories, pictures etc. and it's entirely possible to reconstruct a complete network of your friends, family, history, affairs, trade secrets etc. from a single phone search.

Physical objects usually don't reveal this much at once and require a warrant. With a border phone search, there's no due process at all. If you're so afraid of bad actors that you're willing to subject yourself to this, you're free, but the bad actors have won.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gwright on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:41PM (#18117421)
So what happens if you move from country A to country B and bring all your personal papers, address books, photo albums, diaries, business records, etc. across the border (in a moving van, for example)? I really don't know but I suspect that no one takes the takes the time to read all those documents or to copy them for later study at least at most borders. I don't even know what the applicable law is for someone moving to/from US/Canada, for example.

What happens if you use the postal service to deliver your phone across a border? Are the same authorities who claim the right to search your phone if it is on your person at the border also claiming the authority to confiscate and duplicate your phone if it shipped/mailed? Do you have to put your password on a sticky note on the the front of the phone? And if you ship the physical device but transfer the data separately does that change the expectations?

It is interesting that condensing information into a digital format that can be easily duplicated and searched (before or after duplication) seems to change the expectations for the authorities and I think for individuals.

I think this is another example of the modern digital world/economy has left the legal system in the dust.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by wsy on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:45PM (#18115592)
Your thought experiment raises a good point, but I think your conclusions are still wrong.

The boundary between what should be allowed and what should not be allowed has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of technology.

Freedom is not possible without privacy. As soon as you are in danger of privacy violation, you change your behavior. This is also known as self-censoring. You can already see it here in the forum: people report that they have nothing to hide, but they still reset their phones and use fake accounts when crossing the border.

What is particularly insidious about border control is that there is no legal checks-and-balances system behind it. Police cannot search your home without a warrant issued by a judge. Border control can search everything without any warrant.

In the past, you could yourself 'balance' this by not taking very personal things (e.g., a diary) with you when traveling abroad. But with our digital lifes, this is not possible anymore. You cannot leave your photo album at home anymore.

What makes it so much worse is that criminals can so easily circumvent this issue. They anyway use throw-away phones. They don't need to carry notebooks with them, they can just buy a new one on arrival - if needed at all - and download encrypted files from the Cloud.

So we now have established that border control has an unprecedented and uncontrolled access to our privacy. Shouldn't they be forced to prove that this pays off for our society? Please show me the cases of successful prosecution after digital search of a phone. To me, there seem extremely few of them. So it seems a high price for a marginal benefit.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by nmeofthestate on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:46PM (#18114370)
You can't blow a hole in an aeroplane's fuselage with somebody's mobile browser history.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gsnedders on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:55PM (#18114464)
Customs is way too late to be worrying about blowing a hole in an aeroplane, given you've already made it to the border by that point.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by nmeofthestate on Monday October 01, 2018 @03:11PM (#18115815)
Good point but obviously the technology would still be a problem earlier in the process, and it would still be an equally bad analogy at that stage.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by mikeash on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:33PM (#18114856)
To make the analogy complete, it needs to include a global mail network that accepts these magic boxes and transports them almost instantaneously at almost no charge, so that you could trivially avoid any requirement to show customs what's inside by mailing your stuff to yourself after you get through.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by firethief on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:11PM (#18114002)
Can we also download physical objects after we go through the checkpoint?
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:13PM (#18114030)
You can already "download guns".

http://time.com/5344265/3d-printed-guns-legal/

I would be surprised if that's not possible for drugs or explosives in 5-10 years.

Edit: Looks like they are already possible or at least on the way:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-man...

https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-print...

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by slavak on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:52PM (#18114444)
You can "download" crappy, not very effective guns. And you still need to obtain the ammo (the actually lethal part) the old-fashioned way.

I would very much be surprised if it becomes possible for drugs or explosives any time within my lifetime. Chemistry and physics just don't work that way.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:59PM (#18114499)
I thought so too, but then I googled "3d print drugs" and "3d print explosives".

I think google doesn't censor results based on location? So you should see the same results.

Edit: To save your time and avoid polluting your search history:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/you-could-soon-be-man...

https://all3dp.com/custom-shaped-explosives-us-navy-3d-print...

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by slavak on Friday October 12, 2018 @02:55PM (#18203774)
Thanks, that's quite interesting.

Still, you do need very specific input materials for both processes.

In the case of the latter, you basically need a spool of explosive string. You're not so much printing an explosive as you are shaping an explosive into a desired form. I'm sure it's still very useful, but I don't think it's a particularly big game changer in the "smuggling things into a country" field.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by nbluth on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @09:13AM (#18121247)
I have a hypothetical question for you. Lets say we develop brain scanning tech. Should it be mandatory to perform a brain download to cross the border?
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by jessaustin on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:24PM (#18114757)
If it works, customs officers cannot find actual illegal contents, and criminals walk free through customs.

"Illegal contents", as in what? Unflattering cartoons of the president? A spreadsheet marked "cocaine delivery schedule"? Why is this on the alleged criminal's phone while she's crossing the border? Has she never heard of the internet? No real criminal could be caught by any of this buffoonery. Lots of normal people whom the state would like to harass will be harassed, while wasting a great deal of money, which is the point.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by reaperducer on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:41PM (#18114947)
Unflattering cartoons of the president?

In Thailand, both tourists and locals can be severely punished for making fun of the King.

(I'd Google some links, but I'm on a dialup-speed cellular connection right now. It shouldn't be hard to find, though.)

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gwright on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:43PM (#18117431)
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/turkish-president-app...

Just another example of the different way in which speech/information is treated in different countries.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by mito88 on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:03PM (#18117208)
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by jessaustin on Monday October 01, 2018 @06:23PM (#18117326)
Haha yeah Beard Man should have left his laptop at home. Still, they must have been pretty confident in the evidence they already had when they issued that arrest warrant.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by angry_octet on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @11:07AM (#18130914)
Real criminals are caught by this all the time. A lot of these guys are scaping the bottom of the IQ barrel.

But a lot of the agents will have MAGA hats in their car, so I probably wouldn't have unflattering Trump cartoons on my phone. Though I would love it if EVERYONE had 'fuck trump' as their phone background.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by reaperducer on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:39PM (#18114929)
To be very honest, I find the methodology very similar to what drug trafficker would do to hide their drugs.

It's a shame that people now have to guard their privacy like drugs.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by jtmcmc on Monday October 01, 2018 @01:51PM (#18115032)
it's a shame that people had to guard their drugs! and now their privacy!
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by Johnny555 on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:38AM (#18113643)
Drug traffickers hide their drugs in an encrypted partition?

No sane criminal would bring illegal electronic data with him on a physical device... He'll just download it when he gets there.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by mikeash on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:44AM (#18113725)
No smart criminal would. There are lots of dumb criminals, though.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by AsyncAwait on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:35PM (#18114270)
Yes, and am not willing to have my privacy violated for dumb criminals.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by mito88 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:28PM (#18158549)
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by v_lisivka on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:50AM (#18113795)
OMG. Just use two SSD's and turn off second in the BIOS.

Or use same technique as Chinese fakers are using to create fake flash cards or SSD's: just reduce size of drive directly in the controller.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gureddio on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:20PM (#18114103)
... if your laptop has space for two SSDs
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by efreak on Monday October 01, 2018 @05:00PM (#18116769)
Hidden partition flag, then. Or just dual boot with a secondary system as default; either a live os image (linux) or installed on a vhd (windows).
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by dotancohen on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:25AM (#18118786)
You could probably just remove the partition's fstab entry to get past most border searches. Or store the data in what appears to be a swap partition.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by NegativeLatency on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:11AM (#18113288)
> It’s impossible ... to prove

Not after they subpoena this HN comment. ;)

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by clubm8 on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:13AM (#18113318)
>Not after they subpoena this HN comment. ;)

Anyone subpoenaing this comment would discover I post on HN exclusively over Tor :)

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by berbec on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:19AM (#18113405)
I'm behind three proxies!
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by sys_64738 on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:52AM (#18113826)
We know ;-)
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by 8fingerlouie on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @04:26AM (#18119707)
As technically exciting as this is, i would probably just bring a burner laptop, installed with a a default Debian install on a properly initialized LUKS partition, and a weak password, and a USB drive with a Debian install.

Once inside customs, i'd verify the SHA1 sum of the USB drive image vs. the one on the Debian site, and reinstall the machine, setup a VPN back home, and pull the data i need onto the machine.

Repeat the "dummy" install when leaving the country.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paavoova on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:14PM (#18115265)
Note that this requires using dm-crypt in plain mode, which allows only one passphrase, doesn't perform any passphrase mangling or salting, and performs no passphrase checking on decryption. It requires one to re-enter exact parameters, and an improper passphrase will happily give bunk data.

Secondly, high-entropy data is evident at even a courtesy glance - normal computer and filesystem operations do not produce high-entropy data on disk, therefore a large portion of high-entropy disk data is highly suspect. The author discusses this in detail in sections 2.4 and 5.2 of https://gitlab.com/cryptsetup/cryptsetup/wikis/FrequentlyAsk...

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Thursday October 04, 2018 @06:09PM (#18144119)
True, but the default parameters of cryptsetup are quite secure with a high entropy password and they are seldom changed. A volume opened with the wrong password will fail to mount with no ill effects, you would just crypysetup delete and then re-create it again with the right password. I've addressed at length the other issues above, initializing an encrypted drive with random data is a widely recommended countermeasure against attacks that exploit the way the filesystem allocates sectors, VeraCrypt does it by default and many graphical setups for Linux offer the option for encrypted drives.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by artursapek on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:09AM (#18113252)
You should write a blog post explaining how to set this up in a little more detail.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by zymhan on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:15AM (#18113340)
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by artursapek on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:21AM (#18113426)
Thanks!
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by androidgirl on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:11AM (#18113293)
I'd be interested in hearing more about this as well.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by ams6110 on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:17PM (#18118564)
> cryptsetup -o 100000000 create boot /dev/sdc3

Be sure that doesn't get into your .bash_history

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gruez on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:18AM (#18113394)
>It's impossible for any court forensic team, let alone an airport goon, to prove there is actually another partition inside the outer encrypted partition

booting into a 50 GB partition on a 512GB SSD isn't suspicious?

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by tomp on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:26AM (#18113481)
Nah both partitions are 500GB... it's just that you avoid writing (or filling up) the "outer" partition so the "inner" partition is never overwritten.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gruez on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:35AM (#18113610)
how do you ensure this? afaik ext4 scatters its allocations across the partition, so it's only a matter of time before an allocation for a syslog entry wipes your .ssh/id_rsa
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:58AM (#18113888)
Colocating both roots on the same partition spells disaster, you will absolutely clobber data when the outer system boots. I have detailed in another post that the correct way is to put the sensitive root inside a largely empty decoy data partition, and no longer write there (but you can update timestamps in place).

Needless to say, using these schemes for SSD drives requires special consideration in regard to trimming.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by megous on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:28AM (#18113533)
Until you run fstrim?
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by swarnie_ on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:24AM (#18113454)
Find me a member of the TSA who can explain the significance of that sentence let alone catch it in practice then we can discus the viability of it.

It seems to me this would fix the larger problem most the time.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by gruez on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:51AM (#18113814)
as someone else mentioned, the only reason it works now is that very few people does this. if this starts getting popular, i guarentee that TSA is going to check for hidden partitions, patched kernels, suspiciously clean OS, etc.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by hfdgiutdryg on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:50PM (#18115644)
i guarentee that TSA is going to check for hidden partitions, patched kernels, suspiciously clean OS, etc.

How would they hire enough manpower smart enough to do that?

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by bigiain on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:18PM (#18118346)
They'll just buy an eyewateringly expensive tool from Cellebrite (or their ilk), then let the minimum wage goons loose with it...

"Hey Hank, the machine says we've got another hidden encrypted partition, go get the rubber hose..."

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by Tuna-Fish on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:38AM (#18113644)
The outer partition fills the entire SSD. It just happens to use a filesystem that packs its data from the beginning of the partition. So long as you don't ever use more than 50GB at a time, the inner partition is safe.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by megous on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:27AM (#18113498)
You can patch the kernel to report the full size, I guess.
[dead]
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by sctb on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:25PM (#18114166)
Like we've asked before, could you please start commenting in the spirit of this site, which is to gratify our intellectual curiosity? Gratuitous inflammation doesn't belong and will get your account banned.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by paradite on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:50PM (#18114424)
Since you are here already, maybe I know why is the author of this comment not given warning or ban for personal attacks?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18112863

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by sctb on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:31PM (#18115463)
We don't see nearly all comments, even if we post in a thread. If you notice such things the best thing to do is email us at [email protected] so we'll be sure to see it.
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by nrki on Monday October 01, 2018 @11:47AM (#18113763)
"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." - some U.S. citizen. (MLK, Jr.)
Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by yholio on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:17PM (#18114069)
> If you pull this stunt in the USA, I hope you enjoy your five-year sentence in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison and the effect that the permanent felony conviction on your record will have on your employment prospects and the exercise of your civil rights. Misleading, or concealing information from, a federal agent is a felony.

If this is the line of the argument, then why is the search done at all? I am perfectly fine telling an agent of the state "No sir, I do not have any illegal data on this device" - fully knowing that a lie is conducive to imprisonment. What I object to is the search itself, which by the way, is unlawful under the US constitution.

Re:New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $... by TomK32 on Monday October 01, 2018 @02:07PM (#18115190)
you say nothing to that agent. not a word. you give them your password if the insist and that's it.