News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Alex3917 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @09:42PM (#17712548)
We might be at a local maximum, but we're nowhere near the peak. What we're seeing is an end of the race to the bottom.

What's happened is that most of the major social networks only hire and promote people who make decisions primarily based on analytics. As a result these sites no longer have any real communities or organic content, and have been completely hollowed out by math-friendly refrigerator magnet junkfood. Even though everyone can recognize that most users no longer find these experiences to be compelling, they're all stuck in a one-way spiral.

Web 3 is just getting started though, and with new technologies are going to come novel and compelling forms of social interaction.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by benwerd on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:47PM (#17712842)
> What's happened is that most of the major social networks only hire and promote people who make decisions primarily based on analytics. As a result these sites no longer have any real communities or organic content, and have been completely hollowed out by math-friendly refrigerator magnet junkfood.

_Exactly_ this. Rather than understanding their users as real humans, having unique insights about them, and building something that meets their real needs, everything has been about maximizing hollow engagement metrics. And guess what? That's good for short term revenue but not long term trust. If you're running a startup and the main way you learn about your users is through statistical tracking and A/B testing, you're missing an important opportunity to get to know them properly. They will lead the way and although you can't simply ask them what they want, if you understand them deeply you'll know what to do.

I'm excited about the next wave of platforms, which are tapping into enormous unmet needs. It's early days, and I can't stand the "web 3" label, but there's definitely going to be a sea change.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by danepowell on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:01PM (#17712899)
Sounds like an example of Goodhart's Law: "When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric."

Optimizing for something as abstruse as "engagement" seems like a great way to completely ignore everything that actually makes social networks compelling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lloeki on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:45AM (#17714137)
> Optimizing for something as abstruse as "engagement" seems like a great way to completely ignore everything that actually makes social networks compelling.

Or anything else, for that matter. The most shocking part of Android Pie release[0] was the repetition of the "drive engagement" mantra (in the post as well as surrounding articles). Fundamentally, phones are tools; how good is any tool to me when it's purposely designed to make me use it more? A tool should make me more efficient, hence, for the same task, make me use it less! Everything about this is spiralling to artificially inflate dubious metrics such as eyeball time or number of interactions.

[0]: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/08/introducin...

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tokyodude on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:16AM (#17714881)
I wish there was some kind of pledge or iOS/Android rule not to waste my time.

Example: I'm on 2 dating app. I want notification on so I can make sure to receive messages from actual people but I get one notification every day from each app "You should check for new matches today!" Nether app has a way to turn off that notification.

Google Maps now does something like this too where they are trying to get me to add reviews and photos so Google Maps starts notifying me "Add a review of that place I think you just visited?" I think Google Maps at least had a way to turn it off though not 100% sure.

In general though the more some service bugs me with anything the less I want to do business with that service. That includes mailing lists. Hate them! Don't add me. I didn't opt-in! Etc...

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Grazester on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:31AM (#17715316)
Yes you can turn it off. Its kind of annoying if you're not a contributor
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by xf00 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:13AM (#17714550)
> A tool should make me more efficient, hence, for the same task, make me use it less!

It makes sense when you consider Android phones as a set of tools used by advertisers to reach consumers. The more eyeballs the more efficient the tool becomes.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Klover on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:25AM (#17714922)
It shows in both app stores on either platform. The play store gives me lots of suggestions on apps to download based on activity, and the iOS store has these write ups to promote apps. Both get them money.

Does Android have something like Siri suggestions with P? Because that seems intended to do the exact opposite of what you’re saying. It is the feature that suggests your notes app if you often use your notes app in the grocery store location. It would be a good use for Android instead of the constant asking to review the store.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by ryanbrunner on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:58AM (#17716478)
It does have a suggested apps section at the top of the apps list. It's supposedly time / location aware, but I haven't dug into how effective that is (I tend to use 3-4 apps almost exclusively on my phone, so that's all I tend to ever get suggested).
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by daveFNbuck on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:19AM (#17716634)
I guess that's why they took away the option to silence your phone. I'll be less engaged if it can't ring during movies and meetings.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by kristiandupont on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:56AM (#17714768)
When I hear startups declare that they are data-driven I get the image of a person driving a car by focusing stritcly on the dashboard.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by kasey_junk on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:31AM (#17714956)
There are situations where the only safe way to fly a plane is to ignore everything but the instruments...

Though I suppose in this stretched analogy those are not great positions to be in.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by crzwdjk on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:21AM (#17716174)
There are also situations where a sticky note can be a vital piece of safety equipment because an instrument is malfunctioning. And even though the pilot knows the instrument is showing bogus data, they're so used to looking at it that they will instinctively do so and react to its bogus indications, so the safest thing is to hide it from view entirely. Fortunately there's enough redundancy in the information from the basic instruments that even if one of them fails, you can still fly the plane by extrapolating the missing information from the other ones.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Pigo on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:34AM (#17715774)
I'm forced to interact with certain people in my life through certain social media tools, but I lost interest in most if it a long time ago. I've tried to quantify what it is that made it so exciting at first, and the best thing I can think of is that I used to meet new people or engage with people I wanted to get to know better when things were first kicking off.

I never wanted it to become the way I talk to my folks, I wanted to talk to that cute girl in my class or some guy in Russia that happened to like the Smashing Pumpkins too. Maybe I'm not using it right, but it seems more difficult to find new people while wading through ads and political posts from peripheral friends.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Nickersf on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:50AM (#17716907)
I couldn't agree more with this. I'm in the same boat. 32 years old, so I had a social life before social media. There is one exception for me and that's Instagram. I'm a visual person and it satisfies that for me. Three minutes on Twitter is enough to make me depressed for the rest of the day. Facebook isn't much different... I think humans will naturally shift to actually hanging out in real life again.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by mygo on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:34AM (#17713428)
they’re just optimizing for the wrong metric. If the metric was “user satisfaction” they could target it day and night and nobody would be complaining.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by mehwoot on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:51AM (#17713505)
The reason goodharts law exists is because its hard to measure things like user satisfaction, so we're left with poor proxies like user engagement.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Uberphallus on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:16AM (#17713807)
Most metrics would imply prison is great: low bounce rate, average session length of a couple of years, very flat retention curve.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tomerico on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:50AM (#17713496)
Any metric can be abused if you try to optimize it at all costs. You can easily increase average user satisfaction by reducing the usage by less satisfied users, it doesn't mean you improved things.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by sullyj3 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:06AM (#17713546)
The issue is that something like this difficult to operationalize. User Engagement conflated with user satisfaction, with poor results. Maybe you could force your users to fill out Likert scales all the time, I bet they'd love that.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by mygo on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:19PM (#17719583)
——————————————————————

    Are you satisfied?  
                        
       [yes]  [no]           
——————————————————————
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by megablast on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:06AM (#17714003)
Does high user satisfaction make more money?
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:01AM (#17713309)
I'd give Gresham some due as well.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:45AM (#17715406)
Many possible examples, but Dwight MacDonald's "Mass Culture" (1953) is a good start.

https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2008/ESB032/um/5136660/MacDon...

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by blitmap on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:10AM (#17713343)
I don't want to sound like an ass because I wholeheartedly agree with you. The experience is hollow.

But you can't invest in things you can't quantify. You can't make money off of good vibes and authenticity without metrics. Snapchat and the like have thrown enormous money at understanding humans and have the best people in their fields to get this right.

I think what worked 10 years ago no longer flies now. How we socialize on the web has changed, and we're turned off by the traditional mechanics to keep us viewing. There are many alternatives to the service Facebook offers, but I'd like to people aren't 'showing off' as much anymore and are having more 1-to-1 or small friend-group experiences. The larger community is almost always toxic.

Look at cord-cutting: For the longest time we just ignored commercials, until we didn't.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by superflyguy on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:02AM (#17713988)
"But you can't invest in things you can't quantify."

From:https://genius.com/Frank-zappa-drooling-midrange-accountants...

Once upon a time, a record company had A&R people in it who would take a chance, make a decision, use their gut reaction, sign a group, and see what they could do with it. Okay? That was, whoa, a long time ago. It's not that way anymore. All decisions about who get signed and what happens to the record are made by these drooling little midrange accountants. And everything is based on the numbers games in there. And the taste of the accountants is what is ruling the mass media."

Continues at link.

This attitude is like trying to predict the weather tomorrow by just guessing it'll be the same as today. You're right most of the time...

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by auxbuss on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:02AM (#17714801)
`A&R` by Bill Flanagan[0] is a fun read about the now deceased world of A&R. Of special interest to anyone interested in the music business who wasn't around pre-internet.

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1163779.A_R

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by dasil003 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:40AM (#17713453)
> But you can't invest in things you can't quantify.

I hope you mean the current world of VC and the greater finance world can't do that. Because as individuals and small companies we can absolutely invest in anything we want whether there's a metric or not. Granted, you can't organize a mega corporation or a hypergrowth startup around vague values because you're so far past Dunbar's number that any kind of shared understanding of anything more complex than simple metrics is tenuous at best.

However it's worth recognizing that there's a real thirst in the world for authenticity in a world driven by global brands and corporate behemoths. There's plenty of room for other approaches, it's just not what interests the financial world whose interest is directly proportional to the number of zeros involved.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by torstenvl on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:29AM (#17715739)
But you can't invest in things you can't quantify. You can't make money off of good vibes and authenticity without metrics.

Sure you can. It's how Jobs turned Apple around. By all accounts, nobody had metrics saying consumers wanted less choice. No metrics suggested that a music player with "no wireless [and] less space than a nomad" would be a market leader. No metrics, as far as I'm aware, showed that there was a huge demand for Unix-like stability and command line tools but without the need for tinkering just to get a great UI and commercial software support.

It's difficult, certainly, and requires a nearly pathological drive to make your product as good and polished as possible - a drive that most people don't have today, including Tim Cook. But it can be done.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by majormajor on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:34AM (#17713430)
> But you can't invest in things you can't quantify. You can't make money off of good vibes and authenticity without metrics. Snapchat and the like have thrown enormous money at understanding humans and have the best people in their fields to get this right.

Not everyone can, but great products often have a bit of genius or perfect timing in their creation. Snapchat - disappearing picture messages! - wouldn't have been arrived at by analytics alone.

Quantifiable metrics can amplify good instincts, but it can't replace them, and most of Facebook post-newsfeed, or Snapchat post-stories, has been just the metrics-driven iteration part.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by striking on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:13AM (#17713351)
Cord cutting isn't just about commercials (indeed, there is an ad supported tier of Hulu).

It's about control over what you get to watch, when. No more waiting around for a particular time, no forgetting to set the DVR. This has always been a nuisance.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by mmt on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:30AM (#17713417)
Indeed, even before full-on cord-cutting was a thing, Tivo was (and still is, AFAIK) a thing, including speculative recording of content (i.e. it became more than just a digital version of a VCR).

There's evidence that this has been an evolution rather than a revolution.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Izkata on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:41PM (#17717320)
> (and still is, AFAIK)

Yep, my condo just cut a deal with our collective internet+cable provider that includes a Tivo for everyone.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by danmaz74 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:41AM (#17715389)
> But you can't invest in things you can't quantify. You can't make money off of good vibes and authenticity without metrics

Having metrics is important, but thinking that metrics - any set of metrics - capture the whole of reality is delusional. And anyway, in the end you can always quantify your ROI in terms of money.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Stephen_C on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:38AM (#17714106)
Reminds me that the balance between logic and emotion within a sociological system was explored many moons ago in the Matrix trilogy through the relationship between the Architect(Logic) and Oracle(Intuition).

WARNING: Mild spoilers if you've not seen the Matrix films

The analytics led social media platforms are evolving towards the early versions of the Matrix created solely by the Architect and ultimately rejected by the humans within:

"The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being.

Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure.

I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.

If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother." Architect - The Matrix Reloaded (via Wikiquote)

As an industry (and engineers) we have a tendency towards being led by logic and there has been a cultural focus (e.g. DevOps) on being led by metrics...we can sometimes miss or downplay the squishy yet equally important emotive side of systems ;)

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by arsenico on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:32AM (#17715757)
Do you have examples of such platforms? Also, your point is legit, but think about a vast number of online services which do not measure anything. A plethora of financial services (insurers, I won't even dare), and other rigid institutions.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by florabuzzword on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:41AM (#17713458)
I bailed at the advent of forced non-chronological timelines. I would have been less insulted if Facebook hired someone to spit in my face.

Easily the scummiest design decision I have ever whitnessed.

Actively manipulating the structural representation of time in a communication platform is begging for chaos. Yes, of course I know the time stamps are still presented. That is not my point. Communication is sensitive; very sensitive. Adding barriers in reverse like that signals to me these companies do not have a clue. The issues with this sort of thing will not be measurable or even observable.

Our lives and society are impacted in mass proportions by events we as individuals will never perceive, or have the capacity to. And this is precisely what thinking is for; we theorize, organize, and make sense of things. This is the basis for all of our potential, and that potential is all we have.

But this is not rocket science. It’s a sorted list. that everyone uses. And now it’s unsorted. for And what?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by quotemstr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:50AM (#17713495)
Chronological is just one ordering. Why are you so attached to it? Why must deviating from this one specific ranking approach lead to "chaos"?

Algorithmic ranking is not evil. A tiny minority of people rail against algorithmic ranking, but the vast majority, as demonstrated by their engagement, prefer the algorithmic model. Should we let this tiny vocal minority dictate policy, data be damned?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by josephg on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:36AM (#17713657)
> Algorithmic ranking is not evil. A tiny minority of people rail against algorithmic ranking, but the vast majority, as demonstrated by their engagement, prefer the algorithmic model. Should we let this tiny vocal minority dictate policy, data be damned?

I was listening to the Next Billion Seconds podcast the other day. They made the point that in social media 'engagement' is a polite euphemism for 'addictiveness'.

I've rephrased your post to show why I find it unsettling:

> Algorithmic ranking is not evil. A tiny minority of people rail against algorithmic ranking, but the vast majority find the algorithmic model to be more addictive. Should we let a tiny vocal minority dictate policy, data be damned?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by quotemstr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:45AM (#17714391)
How can you distinguish "addictiveness" from people just liking the product? The default assumption should be that people are in control of their own actions.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by josephg on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:01AM (#17715131)
One hint to help differentiate addiction and enjoyment is to ask about enjoyment. Research shows that addicts tend to enjoy the focus of their addiction a bit less than regular folk.

For example, if I’m honest with myself, I don’t enjoy checking my email. But I still compulsively check it dozens of times a day. I think it’s fair to say that I’m an addict.

Do you enjoy checking Facebook? Ask your friends. I know what mine said.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:34AM (#17714655)
Why would you assume that, all the research shows we spend most of our time on auto pilot.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by quotemstr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:05AM (#17714817)
I assume my fellow humans are sentient creatures with volition and judgement. Do you?
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by walterbell on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:31AM (#17714954)
Especially those profiting from their fellow humans.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:52AM (#17716418)
No, if you want evidence then just look at the numbers of obese people in the population. People don't make rational decisions, this isn't some moral failing, it's just the way we are.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by quotemstr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:37PM (#17718266)
And in this analogy, those arguing against algorithmic ranking would forbid optimizing food for taste. I don't want to live in that world.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by stef25 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:42AM (#17715006)
No such thing as free will though
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Kiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:14AM (#17713800)
Addictiveness isn't inherently a bad thing though. I'm addicted to working out.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by function_seven on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:11AM (#17714021)
It by definition is a bad thing. I suspect you’re using the term as slang. Like, you enjoy working out, you do it regularly, and you don’t feel right when you’ve gone too long without a bit of exercise.

That’s not addiction, that’s a healthy habit. If you were truly addicted to working out, you’d be late for work because you wanted that last mile. Or miss your kids birthday party to hang out at the CrossFit gym. It would consume your time and attention to the detriment of other needs and the needs of others.

That’s the spirit the parent comment is using the term in. As something that demands more of your attention than it deserves.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Kiro on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:28AM (#17714943)
Ok, I stand corrected!

> Addiction is a brain disorder characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by terryf on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:31AM (#17713628)
"As demonstrated by engagement" - isn't really true. It's more "As demonstrated by count of time spent in the app". I believe that is true. But it's also a worse experience. Those two really seem to contradict each other, however, it's really quite nuanced.

I'd like to see mostly what my friends are up to. Instead of that, on Facebook at least, I mostly see viral videos from whatever groups I happen to be in. It is true that a lot of the time, those suck me into watching them. Technically that counts as "time spend in the app", but I also see that I'm wasting a lot of my time on crappy pointless videos and because of that I've actually not opened the app at all from time to time. In general, my attitude towards it has also changed - it used to be "ooh, exciting, let's see what's happened", now it's more like "meh, maybe this time there is something interesting, let's check, although probably not". Jaded is probably the correct description.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by XenophileJKO on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:49AM (#17713701)
I realized a while ago that "engagement" is very much the wrong metric to optimize. The reason people optimize for "time spent" or "number of interactions" is because it is easy to measure.

I think ultimately what you need to optimize for is much harder to measure. I think for most senarios it is "value a user can recieve for a given amount of time". When measuring this, time spent in the application is acutally detrimental unless you are increasing the value a user is getting from the application by a substantial amount.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by quotemstr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:49AM (#17714413)
If your theory were true --- that apparent engagement increases really just represent navigational inefficiency --- you'd see drops in other metrics, like user retention and visits. But you don't. What you see is that people use the thing more. It's hard not to interpret that as better.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by terryf on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:48AM (#17714730)
I'm not saying it's navigational inefficiency - it's giving me useless stuff that's really hard to stay away from. I don't want a platform that gives me a free shot of opium every now and then just to get me to stay there.

Being addictive is not a net positive!

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by quotemstr on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:06AM (#17714823)
Who are you to say that content which someone else enjoys is useless?
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by terryf on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:12AM (#17714855)
I'm quite the person to say that it is useless to me.

I also am quite free to have the opinion that a lot of content is simply a waste of time. I also propose the question of how much actual enjoyment it produces and the quality of said enjoyment. You are free to think otherwise :)

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by andyroid on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:08AM (#17713554)
Yeah, having to refresh my instagram feed 2-3 times just to make sure I didn’t miss anything from my friends certainly has me engaged. But it’s the exact kind of “math-friendly refrigerator magnet junkfood” engagement GP was talking about.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by florabuzzword on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:26AM (#17713604)
> Chronological is just one ordering. Why are you so attached to it?

This is a very deep question you’re asking, and I don’t know the answer. But, this boat only goes in one direction so let’s make the best of it.

But seriously, sure other sorting methods are useful. I would like to have many options, but I can’t think of a better default for this use case. Can you?

> ...as demonstrated by their engagement, prefer the algorithmic model.

You just don’t understand my point. Maybe read it again. I dunno. But ...

As demonstrated by their engagement, people prefer doing whatever their boss tells them to do.

As demonstrated by their engagement, people don’t actually like sex very much at all.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by _wmd on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:30AM (#17713624)
I'd offer you one blindingly obvious explanation for why it's putrid: because it is a machine deciding which of my human relationships I should pay the most attention to.

Machines can't do that, silly. They can only promote hate speech with 100 comments and lolcat pictures with 100 likes. The only option is for them to take a back seat and present an ordering that is semantically meaningful to the human computer operating the tool -- the only one qualified to perform any kind of filtering and sorting.

"Relevance ranking" in social networks is a result of engineers having zero clue what applications they're working on, but that's just typical IT people divorced from reality for you. As you said, they find it acceptable because it's written in Angular v7 and uses ML and A/B testing revealed a 3.2% increase in clicks. The idea of the software industry helping real relationships is in general hilariously contradictory (but of course there are exceptions!)

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by jgtrosh on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:33AM (#17713637)
> > ...as demonstrated by their engagement, prefer the algorithmic model. > > […] > > As demonstrated by their engagement, people prefer doing whatever their boss tells them to do.

Engagement means people are engaging more with non-chronological feeds than with chronological ones. This isn't just about blindly accepting what you are given, it's also about caring more for pertinence than order.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by beefield on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:05AM (#17713543)
> Algorithmic ranking is not evil.

If you give no other option than algorithmic ranking that is not designed to maximize my utility but your revenue, that is as close to evil as you can get in my books.

(Edit: as close to evil in the context of social media content sorting. There obviously are more evil things than that...)

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by rebuilder on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:10AM (#17713785)
The biggest issue for me, when FB moved away from chronological ordering, was that if I clicked on a post in my feed, I could no longer go back to the feed and continue browsing where I left off, because the ordering appeared to change when the page was refreshed. I pretty much stopped using the service around that time, and though I didn't actually think about it, I think this change was a big factor in that.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by wastedhours on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:10AM (#17714530)
The same for me - it got to the point of infuriation that if I navigated away by clicking on a link to a Chrome tab, if I came back to engage with the post organically, it was hidden from the feed.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by ChristianBundy on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:00AM (#17713526)
I can't speak for GP, but most people who don't like the switch from non-chronological timelines because their replacements are usually opaque algorithms that are optimized for maximum shareholder profit. That's a downgrade.

On the other hand, non-chronological timelines are celebrated in communities like Scuttlebutt, but it's because we have control and you can choose the UX that works best for you without sacrificing connectivity.

Diagnosis: https://staltz.com/the-web-began-dying-in-2014-heres-how.htm... First round of treatment: https://staltz.com/a-plan-to-rescue-the-web-from-the-interne...

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by FridgeSeal on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:57AM (#17713516)
Increased engagement because it takes more clicks and scrolling to get to what you want != increased engagement because I want to be on the platform.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by cft on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:38AM (#17713660)
It's not demonstrated by engagement. The engagement exists simply because there's no alternative: FB made new attempts to enter the social media impossible. You will not get funding and you will not be able to monetize with advertising: monetization of user generated content with ads is impossible in 2018 unless you are at least the size of Reddit.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by DJHenk on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:05AM (#17713544)
Algorithmic ranking might not be evil per se, but it is if the algorithm is hidden and there is no way to adjust it, or to check what it filtered out.

Add to that a perverse incentive (money from ads and 'engagement') for the company designing the algorithm. How can that not lead to evil?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Ntrails on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:52AM (#17714168)
> Chronological is just one ordering. Why are you so attached to it?

Because one is essentially a feed of data, and the other is obviously/openly being manipulated based on things that I did not choose. The fact remains that removing that option is problematic. They switched the default - fine, makes sense. To remove the basic time ordered feed just shows they aren't interested in allowing users real choice.

I largely mothballed my facebook use years ago - so I'm not a user they should optimise for. But probably have bailed at that anyway.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by gaius on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:05AM (#17714503)
the vast majority, as demonstrated by their engagement, prefer the algorithmic model

All engagement measures is time spent on the site. Or how much people are prepared to tolerate.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by criddell on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:24AM (#17715703)
Exactly this. I like Instagram but I wish they would optimize for how I want to use it, now how they want me to use it. I want to get on, see stuff from my friends and get off. I want to spend the least amount of time possible on the site and that's something that social media sites seem to think would be bad for them.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by jmcqk6 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:06PM (#17718982)
Why is engagement the metric to optimize for? I can find utility in a post that I don't engage with.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by havermeyer on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:35AM (#17713651)
One of the reasons that I like Twitter... It has a short section with "important" (by some metric) tweets since the last time that you viewed your feed, followed by tweets in chronological order. Facebook surely has the ability to do something similar but it would negatively impact how much time people spend on the site.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by runevault on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:27AM (#17716224)
Personally I'm not a fan of this feature, but thankfully it doesn't do it to lists, so most of the more interesting people I follow I put into various lists by topic instead. That and I'm not a fan of the main timeline injecting likes from the people I follow, but that's twitter for you...
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Jare on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:52AM (#17714746)
Twitter forces me to do a monthly dance of "I don't like this" clicking on stuff like that or the "XXX liked this tweet" crap to remove them, instead of providing a simple on/off setting and sticking to it.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by toomanybeersies on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:51AM (#17713503)
Your Facebook newsfeed is not a communication platform. It's arguable if it ever was, but it certainly isn't now.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by mrweasel on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:35AM (#17713647)
And the reason that it's not is that the chronologically ordered feed generate less revenue. I doubt that Facebook is just trying to mess with people.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by drb91 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:11PM (#17712680)
> with new technologies are going to come novel and compelling forms of social interaction.

What, Web 3.0 will come with booze?

While I am entertained by social media, I can't remember the last time I actually interacted with anyone in a substantive way. I'd much rather hit the bar and admit to myself that social media isn't very social.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by rqs on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:42AM (#17713466)
> What, Web 3.0 will come with booze?

Off topic but, you know what, maybe it eventually will. Just like in the movie Ready Player One, nothing says it couldn't be done.

Maybe the reduce of physical interaction between people are not caused by social medias, maybe just because people don't want to spend time and energy (or, lazy) on those physical interactions.

If meet with friends face to face cost 2 bars of power, and interact with them on social media cost 1 bar, I think many people will rather to save 1 bar, so they can do more tings (like, take a nap).

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by mrep on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:10AM (#17715581)
You're interacting with us right now :)
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by drb91 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:37AM (#17716794)
Oh I do agree there! I just don’t file forums under “social media” in the sense most people bemoan the concept.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Alex3917 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:18PM (#17712708)
> Web 1.0 lets individuals create and express ideas

> Web 2.0 lets groups create and express ideas

> Web 3.0 lets societies create and express ideas

It's blockchain. Blockchain is what gets us from web 2.0 to web 3.0. The technology is almost here, and after another few years of basic R&D the stuff we're going to be able to start building is going to transform society in ways that are barely even imaginable today.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Qwertie on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:23PM (#17712737)
Could you explain exactly how blockchains allow societies to create ideas? I'm not sure how append only lists allow idea sharing in ways a database does not.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:39PM (#17712811)
Alex isn't wrong. But I don't think it's blockchain. It's decentralization in general.

For example, I want to release a tool that can mod old ROMs. I cannot legally sell this. This is a new idea, I'd like to make a living with it, but I can't. And why not? Because the concept of IP has turned us into servants.

Meanwhile you have youtube series like Freeman's Mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SQhfkpX9bc making a killing, and I'm preeeetty sure he didn't ask Valve for permission. Nintendo is possibly the most litigious game company in history, and will aggressively shut down anything remotely connected to any of their characters. The whole situation is completely fucked for artists, and decentralization can solve it.

Unfortunately it looks like I'm born a couple generations too early to benefit, but at least my kids might.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by john_moscow on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:41AM (#17713250)
That will work... until a talented guy from a poorer country starts selling a cracked version of your ROM for half the price. Good luck competing with that in a 0% regulated environment.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:57AM (#17713294)
At least it'd be a fair matchup. Me vs big companies is like an ant vs you. I'm less worried about a talented Russian who's stuck one generation behind my latest work anyway.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by hcknwscommenter on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:17AM (#17713370)
except he will be 0.1 generations behind. Literally, the day you release your update he will start feverishly reverse engineering it. Once you show the way with all your hard work, copying becomes easy. Good luck monetizing that.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by jchw on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:29AM (#17713410)
What's the incentive to crack it, to sell it? Does the cracker sell it for less? Would I be willing to buy a cracked piece of software? It'd be a horribly unsafe idea if it were, for example, security software or a tool for modifying my operating system.

Even in a complete wild west, some people are going to do the right thing. Maybe even most people. Probably is far more a cultural issue than a legal or technical one. Still, I'm not arguing that 100% deregulation is a good idea, just that I don't really think this is a convincing argument.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tw04 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:42AM (#17715830)
>Would I be willing to buy a cracked piece of software?

It doesn't matter if you would, it matters if the general public would. And all you have to do is look to China, where more cracked copies of windows are sold every day than legitimate copies. The only reason that doesn't exist here is because it's almost impossible for the average consumer to buy a cracked copy. If they were available at every corner store the average person would make that choice 9 times out of 10. And if they'll take that risk on the entire OS, they won't bat an eye at a rom.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by frockington on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:42AM (#17716341)
Is China full of computers running vulnerable unpatched Windows? At such a large scale a future (or current) vulnerability could have a huge effect
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @04:49PM (#17761762)
Yes it is.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @04:50PM (#17761774)
It is not unsafe if the cracker is an actual company with brand, customer service, etc., because such a thing will at least briefly exist in an environment with no IP protection.

Then it all goes to heck because innovation just grinds to a halt.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:29AM (#17713409)
I don't disagree, but at least some money would come my way. Currently no money comes. And yeah, I could build my own game with my own characters instead of modding old ones, but why? It'd be fun to put a silly hat on Starfox and make him into Piratefox and make him go yarrrr as he blasts all the innocent bad guys. I wanna try it and I wanna sell it and it'd be hilarious and benefit society and it's stupid I can't.

To be precise, the argument goes like this: Star Fox 64 is not currently generating any economic benefit for Nintendo. It doesn't harm Nintendo for someone to make a derivative work of it. In fact, I'd be more than happy to cut a deal with Nintendo and just give them most of the money. The problem is that no one tries to do this, and we all lose what could have been made.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lsalvatore on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:32PM (#17717734)
Addendum to my previous comment: Look no further than the man who claimed to be Leonardo himself [1] for proof that a lawless blockchain protects no one and hurts original content creators.

[1] https://bitcoinist.com/leonardo-da-vinci-mona-lisa-blockchai...

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lsalvatore on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:37PM (#17713044)
Maybe those "fucked" artists should invent their own characters. You know, being creative instead of copying other people's ideas.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:48PM (#17713069)
Just like Disney did with Alice in Wonderland, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk862BbjWx4

"And now you, dear filmmaker, want to come along and want to make your own version of Star Wars: A New Hope? For shame! That's like stealing food right out of George Lucas' mouth."

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by hcknwscommenter on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:21AM (#17713384)
Your comment reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of copyright law. It is perfectly acceptable to copy the basic "idea" of a story. You just can't copy or make derivative works of Star Wars or Alice in Wonderland themselves, but you can copy all the themes and ideas thereof.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:41AM (#17713460)
The argument is that it's harmful for society to restrict artists from remixing other people's work. And when you put it that way, how could it be otherwise? We'll have to agree to disagree that it'd cause problems for people to be able to tell a Darth Vader story.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @04:48PM (#17761757)
It causes problems because then there is no profit incentive and then there goes the entire content creation industry.

You can remix themes and ideas all you want. Just don't call it Darth Vader and profit off other people's investment in that specific expression of the space opera.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by georgeecollins on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:53AM (#17713507)
Good point about Disney, they shouldn't be allowed to control characters forever. But two wrongs don't make a right. Nintendo and Valve made recent pieces of intellectual property that they should be allowed to own for a reasonable period of time.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by smegger001 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:42AM (#17713670)
I am just waiting for Disney to buy the rights to Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces" and try to claim they own the monomyth and all derivative stories are violating their copyright.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by drb91 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:50PM (#17713078)
Being creative and copying ideas are not mutually exclusive.

For instance, I love the harry potter universe. I just happen to think that JK Rowling is a terrible writer. I would pay hundreds of dollars for quality fan fiction, ideally licensed or legal. There’s really no mechanism for any human on the planet to tell a story in this universe and widely distribute it legally.

Arguably this is more of an issue with copyright and trademark, but I think there’s a lot of room for art to fluorish if there’s a market not beholden to IP law.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by cyphar on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:36AM (#17713236)
Just a small nitpick, there is no such thing as "IP law". There are copyright laws, trademark laws, and patent laws. All of them have different rules and regulations, and the only thing some people think they have in common is that they (in some fashion) "regulate ideas" with small differences in their application. This is simply not an accurate view of such laws, and ends up muddying the waters by making the clear differences between such laws seem unclear (I'm not saying that you are guilty of doing this intentionally -- it is a very common misconception that is spread because the copyright lobby in the US intentionally tries to muddy the waters so that discussions of reform get squashed).

Always refer to copyright laws as "copyright laws", trademark laws as "trademark laws", and so on.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by emiliobumachar on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:33AM (#17713884)
As a heads up, you're in luck. Ms. Rowling happens to allow a large fan fiction community to thrive royalty-free, as long as no money changes hands.

I have read and particularly recommend Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.

http://www.hpmor.com/

Many other works set in the HP universe exist.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by ZainRiz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:09PM (#17719005)
Harry Potter has more fanfiction about it than any other storiy. The most famous one is on hpmor.com, but you can find tons of others on fanfiction.net.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by cyphar on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:32AM (#17713216)
This is a ridiculous idea, that falls apart with even cursory scrutiny. For a trivial example, almost all of Shakespeare's plays were amalgamations of other people's plays or were based on other people's stories (Hamlet, for instance, was a retelling of a 16th century version of the 13th century Scandinavian legend of Amleth).

Would you argue that Shakespeare was not creative? Or is it possible that stories are based on the culture of a society, and the culture of a society is based on the stories told -- meaning that any story can be argued to be a copy of another person's idea.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lsalvatore on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:55AM (#17713515)
You're not going to convince me that someone narrating over themselves play Half-Life has the same creativity as Shakespeare, because "everything is a copy". To say that no one actually owns the rights to Pokemon, that someone copying Pokemon frame-by-frame is of equal creative value as someone drawing their own monsters, well I just am deeply saddened by that.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by cyphar on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:28AM (#17713613)
(I'll be honest that I didn't originally didn't read that the topic under discussion was modding of games. Passing off a game as your own is obviously not right, but that isn't the only topic under discussion here.)

Of course modding is not the same as Shakespeare. My point was that stories like those of Shakespeare would not have been possible with our modern notions of copyright. I do agree that many (but not all) examples of such work are just simply rip-offs of other people's work. On the other hand, does it make sense for any work to be untouchable for an essentially unlimited period of time?

So while you might argue that mods are all shameless copies of another person's work, I direct you to 'The Stanley Parable'[1] which was a mod of Half-Life 2. I think most people would argue that it is a creative work that is unique despite the fact that it re-uses assets from a copyrighted work. There are many counter-examples to the idea that the only way to have creative value in a game is to "draw your own monsters". Jim Sterling ran a contest where people were to come up with original works based on an overused Unity asset, and the winning entry was a game made entirely out of textures based on that asset[2]. Is that not a creative work?

I think that ultimately it's a disservice to argue that all such works should not be allowed because many examples of people building on previous work is lazy or a transparent rip-off. That the requirement for a creative work be a strict sense of originality (not to mention that you need to decide how do you define sufficient originality -- is "Harry Potter Told Using Pokemon" an original work?).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stanley_Parable [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTL6NlPF0Lw

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lsalvatore on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:25PM (#17717667)
Thanks for your comment. I'm certainly not arguing for a binary definition of creativity. I would play The Stanley Parable and vouch for it's existence as a stand-alone work of art.

But should The Stanley Parable be able to profit and set up a free enterprise on the tireless work of Valve engineers? Well, I wasn't really arguing that either.

All I was saying is that, as an artist, if you consider yourself "fucked" because you can't profit off of releasing a commercial game "Harry Potter with Pokemon" that sits on the shelves of GameStop alongside the originals- even though you would be quite good and creative artist in my mind, hell I would play the shit out of that game- you are not realizing that respecting copyright law and abiding by those rules, as "unfair" as they may be, is the only thing that protects companies from being ruthlessly shared on uTorrent for free, and that if you were truly creative and trying to form a business, why not respect this law, and take additional effort to create something "new" and "original", which I understand is total hyperbole, but within our confines of law is simply a matter of "reskinning" so yes Shakespeare could be regarding on the level of reskinning someone else's Angry Birds, but clearly he put his creative spin on it enough to be different or else he wouldn't have made his mark.

In conclusion, nothing is completely "original", and fanfiction is still creative, but artists should strive to not self-identify with other creative entities, if they wish to form a business, out of respect for the law that protects from 100% bad actors which do not wish to creatively enhance, but to sell or distribute identical copies of original creative work.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:53PM (#17719834)
Again, Disney did exactly that. They ruthlessly exploited Alice in Wonderland and built an empire on it. And you're arguing that no one should be able to do the same. This is the definition of unfair.

I see we're very far apart and probably won't find some common ground, but the way I feel about the situation is that as automation removes the rest of manual labor jobs, people will need to specialize. And modding old ideas is one of the few ways people could specialize and make a living for themselves. You're free to disagree here, but the future is coming, and one day we'll both be gone. The best ideas, however, will be around. And it's hard to imagine that the best idea is not to let anyone else use anything you've thought of for your entire life plus ninety years.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by cyphar on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:56PM (#17721380)
> you are not realizing that respecting copyright law and abiding by those rules, as "unfair" as they may be, is the only thing that protects companies from being ruthlessly shared on uTorrent for free, and that if you were truly creative and trying to form a business, why not respect this law, and take additional effort to create something "new" and "original"

Copyright law is not meant to protect companies. From a historical perspective, it has always meant to temporarily protect authors' rights to their inventions so that society can get more works from those authors. Citing the US constitution (other countries have different justifications, but I assume that you are in the US):

> [The Congress shall have Power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

This matches the purpose of the copyright system defined in 1710 under Statute of Anne (which inspired this clause in the constitution). The copyright system that pre-dated the Statute of Anne was a system of censorship by the publishing houses (that were members of the Printers' Guild), and the public rebelled against their censorship and Queen Anne strove to come up with a system that was far more fair and was meant to inspire authors to produce more work (rather than restrict what they can write so publishers can make more money).

Having a copyright system that protects publishers (which is what we currently have) and lasts for 70 years after the death of the author does not "promote the Progress" of anything (in fact it actively stifles it). I would argue current copyright law is unconstitutional in the US, but I don't have enough money to fight that fight (and the only people that do benefit from copyright law's overreach).

Unfortunately, in our modern age, the true purpose of copyright has been forgotten. People (like yourself) think that the purpose is to protect companies profits -- this could not be further from the truth. Such companies benefit from this misinformation, and regularly lobby the US Congress to add laws which further expand copyright laws (both in breadth as well as length) that result in even more profits for large companies without any more works made as a result. The true hypocrisy is that many of these companies would not have been able to make their works at all without the public domain, and without liberal copyright laws. The first cartoon Mickey Mouse appeared in (Steamboat Willie) made use of things from previous movies (Steamboat Bill Jr -- which was released 50 years earlier).

> out of respect for the law that protects from 100% bad actors which do not wish to creatively enhance, but to sell or distribute identical copies of original creative work.

Even if we ignore that these copyright laws are written by these same corporations (that themselves used public domain, and even infringed on copyrighted works from smaller publishers, to make their products), as I said above this is missing the purpose of copyright law.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tomrod on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:54PM (#17713095)
Good artists create. Great artists steal.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lsalvatore on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:24AM (#17713392)
Love the quote, but it wasn't referring to ROM-hacking Pokemon Blue and passing it off as your own game.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:43AM (#17713468)
Ah, a small correction: I'd never pass someone else's work off as my own. The idea is more along the lines of "Look at this silly hat I put on Picachu. Won't you give me a few cents so I can keep dressing up Pokemon as space marines?"
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by endgame on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:48PM (#17713073)
It's also a way of doing leaderless agreement about distributed platforms in low-trust environments. I'm no blockchain fanatic, bit ISTM that a decentralised discussion board could require the spending of tokens to make posts. The market should hopefully make the tokens of desirable communities more expensive, which discourages cheap, low-effort posts. AFAICT, before blockchain you could have decentralisation or paid posting but not both.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lev99 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:10AM (#17713153)
I cannot envision myself joining a community like the one you described unless the utility of the community was very high. I do not think that paid posting will improve the average utility of a community, but I am open to examples showing I am incorrect.

The best publications pay people to write for them, not the other way around.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by endgame on Thursday August 09, 2018 @12:27AM (#17721644)
I honestly don't know, it's just an idea that's been kicking around in my head. If posting is cheap but spamming is expensive, then you might get better standards. If the forum becomes valuable then you might be able to reward the people who make it great? Except StackOverflow tried that with rep, and locked in all sorts of broken feedback loops.

If the forumtokens fluctuate wildly in value it would probably kill the forum too, particularly if the only way to get them was through the market. I can't think of any way to algorithmically deal out tokens to posters that doesn't reward at least one of: multiple accounts, spamming, or writing outrage bait.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Qworg on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:56AM (#17713290)
If the average utility is calculated as ideas by they who have the most money, then you're golden.

I agree completely - why would paid posting do anything but create a chilling effect on anyone but the wealthy?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by gammateam on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:50AM (#17716406)
Distributed Ledger Technologies are unilaterally being called web 3.0 by the blockchain community.

This isn't THAT different than a bunch of startups calling things web 2.0 five to ten years ago.

so just roll with it.

The Ethereum project's javascript library is literally called web3.js

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Alex3917 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:38PM (#17712808)
> I'm not sure how append only lists allow idea sharing in ways a database does not.

So at the software developer level of the stack, what we get are new tools for managing reputation, identity, authentication, transparency, accountability, etc.

If you think of people as a graph of nodes, these tools enable novel patterns of trust and collaboration between individuals that aren't possible today. What this means is that every institution will ultimately have to reimagine itself so as to be cost competitive in the new paradigm, HT Carlota Perez.

To give a more concrete example, think of the 2008 real estate collapse. The reason the market failed isn't because people didn't have the data, it's because no one one going to read through a 3,000 page paper print out to figure out what was actually in whatever debt tranche they happened to buy. But when you can just run a simple Python script to analyze the contents of all that debt and get updates on payments in real time, suddenly those types of systematic market failures can no longer happen. And because a big portion of the lemon market problem is ameliorated, that creates new ways to finance big capital investments that would be completely impossible today.

Think about why we weren't able to have large corporations before double entry was invented/popularized in Florence in the late 1400s, because there was no way to really know if you were making or losing money once you got beyond a certain scale. Because blockchain reduces the costs of double entry accounting by 10,000x, we can (and will) restructure all aspects of society in ways that just aren't possible currently, everything from supply chains to social networks. I think it stands to reason that blockchain is going to be the most financially important technology of the last 500 years, since imho it's the biggest innovation since double entry accounting.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:59PM (#17712893)
There's just one small problem: Blockchains are massive, slow, and it takes new users hours or days to join an old blockchain. Once those miiiinor problems are solved, I'll agree.

It makes sense as a store of value. But a realtime database that requires rapid, possibly millisecond-accurate entries? It just hasn't happened yet. Not on a scale that works in practice, anyway.

Example: I tried to use Namecoin a couple days ago. I got bored and quit after a few hours of "Synchronizing network". It seems to have consumed several GB. I just wanted to register a .bit domain. I didn't even get to "How do I acquire namecoin?" because (a) there is no clear "go here and pay this dude" service, and (b) you have to have GBs of free space just to try it. Such experiences are typical of blockchain, and this seems to murder consumer adoption.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Alex3917 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:19PM (#17712972)
> it takes new users hours or days to join an old blockchain

The main reason for decentralization is to prevent collusion. But the risk of collusion decreases very quickly even with relatively limited amounts of decentralization. E.g. a consortium of even 10 independent banks would be much less likely to steal your money than Wells Fargo alone. So while there will always be some use cases where power users will want to validate the entire chain, in practice I think we can get 99% of the benefits of decentralization with even a handful of nodes. Bitcoin wouldn't be trustworthy under this model since anyone can jump in and mine, but it's possible to create networks that are trustworthy in this way.

In terms of scalability, the three main contenders right now to be the next generation general purpose blockchain are Hashgraph, DFINITY, and RChain, with a couple dozen other dark horse contenders as well (protocol labs, eos, tezos, etc.) We don't know if any of them actually work yet, in the same way we didn't know whether or not Bitcoin was actually secure in 2010. But there is a bunch of stuff that will be launching in the next couple years and then slowly battle tested over the next decade while we figure out what really works.

Most consumer apps are still going to be driven just by Postgres or whatever, with data only validated on the chain when it actually needs to be. E.g. if you're buying a house, it's probably fine to take Zillow's word on the transaction history if you're just casually browsing, but then if you're getting serious about buying you can always hit the button to go directly to the chain explorer or whatever.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:32PM (#17713026)
Yes! This is an important point, and I completely agree that decentralization is the main driving force here, not necessarily blockchains. Blockchains are a nice fallback mechanism to enforce trust, but Bittorrent proves that you can have happy ecosystems that work just fine without it.

The corollary is that I'm most interested in services that are focusing on decentralization, not merely trying to be a general purpose blockchain. One of the most important unsolved problems seems to be "I want to put this file up on the internet, but I don't want it to be taken down," plus "I want to request this file, but I don't want it to be traceable back to me," plus "I want to distribute this file, but I don't want it traceable back to me." Tor solves some of these concerns, but it remains a specialized niche. I can't just do it for any old file at any time; might as well use Dropbox for that. And why? There's no reason. It should all just be decentralized. After all, I'm online most of the time, and I'd happily upload the file to whoever wants it.

This all sounds quite shady, but the motives here are mostly pure: I'd like to distribute old ROMs and anime. Such things will get you kicked offline just as quickly as the more nefarious stuff. But this seems like a net negative for society. Society is at its healthiest when you're free to remix other people's ideas.

(More specifically, I want to write a service that lets you play whatever old ROM you want, whenever you want. There still is no Netflix of this area, and the game companies that could make it happen seem too inept. May as well force their hand with some decentralization. But that requires being able to write the equivalent of <img src="http://foo.com/img.jpg">, but for distributed binaries keyed by sha256. Blockchain could help here, but I look at this and go "Y'know, this is a perfect decentralization problem. Why aren't blockchains solving it already?")

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:50AM (#17713494)
You can already put ROMs on IPFS, and if you use a JS Emulator and point it at a ROM in IPFS, well there you go.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:54AM (#17713511)
Good idea; I tried that. Unfortunately IPFS doesn't yet seem reliable. Or at least I couldn't get it to work very well. I'll try again though.

Wanna collab? Shoot me an email and we can work it out. I'm really interested in getting this concept running. If only IPFS were low latency and easy for average gamers to upload files to, that seems a perfect fit.

I was hoping that as users play games, they would also upload the games to other people who want to play. That way there's no scarcity of server resources. You could fit ~40 n64 games into 1GB, so it's not a lot of bandwidth.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:00AM (#17713528)
IPFS definitely has high latency, but you might be able to combine this with the Web Storage API [1] to compress and then store the ROM data for local use. I'd be interested in a collab, is your email in your profile?

1: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Storage

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by shawn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:43AM (#17713678)
Yeah! We're thinking along the same lines. I think with a bit of work, libretro can be modified to do it: https://github.com/libretro/parallel-n64

It's already been ported to the web. https://medium.com/webmr/n64-vr-with-javascript-e188de42ced5

The trouble is performance. N64 emulation is all software rasterization based, but it can be rewritten to use WebGL. It's just a lot of work that no one's done yet. RetroArch runs at 40fps because it can use SSE ops, which is beyond what browsers can do currently.

I think it would be possible to ship an Electron app with a local build of Retroarch, modified to export the rom's game data and selectively replace the draw calls with other ones. That way you can basically swap out starfox with mario, if you wanted. If any of this sounds interesting, shoot me an email (see profile).

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by adwn on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:18AM (#17713176)
> Because blockchain reduces the costs of double entry accounting by 10,000x [...]

Wat.

There is no aspect of double entry bookkeeping that would lead to a cost reduction when combined with blockchains, even less a reduction of an order of magnitude (or four!).

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by lev99 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:26AM (#17713201)
> If you think of people as a graph of nodes, these tools enable novel patterns of trust and collaboration between individuals that aren't possible today. What this means is that every institution will ultimately have to reimagine itself so as to be cost competitive in the new paradigm, HT Carlota Perez.

That is a logical fallacy. Every new dna mutation is 'novel' and some mutations are even solutions to real problems, but not every novel solution is the most competitive. Just because blockchain gives you new tools that solve problems doesn't mean it is the best way to solve that problem. (EDIT: To defend your statement you have the burden of proof to show that your paradigm is significantly more competitive than current paradigms. I suspect time will prove me correct.)

> when you can just run a simple Python script to analyze the contents of all that debt and get updates on payments in real time, suddenly those types of systematic market failures can no longer happen

There are many, many factors that went into The Great Rescission. Repackaging subprime mortgages was bad for investors. Maybe python could have helped that by giving investors better insight into what they were buying. The housing market declined, fundamentally, because many families were unable to pay their mortgages. Python wouldn't have helped people be able to pay their mortgage.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by sethrin on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:37PM (#17713043)
While the 2008 crash can be described as an informational failure, my understanding was that this information was deliberately omitted, not just unread; it was fraud, not just a systemic failure. Also, you seem to be describing blockchain costs as being minimal in some sense. My suspicion is that this is less true than you think. Currently, blockchains have very high energy usage. If you are saying we need to structure society around this, then you are asking us to absorb whatever externalities go with it. The people who live around the Colombia River, where the cheap hydro power is, are getting a bit tired of BitCoin mining. I'm sure there are things which can ameliorate this issue. I'm willing to be convinced that the problems of blockchains are surmountable, but your argument seems more enthusiastic than credible.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Alex3917 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:48PM (#17713072)
> my understanding was that this information was deliberately omitted, not just unread; it was fraud

Debt was fraudulently misrated, so you'd have junk bonds rated as AAA or whatever. But the primary data was all there, so you could actually go visit all of the properties and talk to the owners like they did in The Big Short, it's just that no one did. The people who approved the mortgages also weren't verifying people's incomes, and in some cases were even encouraging them to lie about their incomes. But the primary data was all there, the reason no one audited the primary data was that it was too expensive relative to the payoff. Blockchains can fix this. (The residential real estate market is pretty fragmented so it's unlikely to be one of the first industries to get transformed, it's just an easy to understand example.)

> Currently, blockchains have very high energy usage.

This is really only true for Bitcoin and things modeled after it, where the integrity of the chain is secured by wasting an amount of electricity that's directly proportional to the expected future price. This clearly isn't sustainable so BTC will have to change their POW if they want to be successful. But it's also not an inherent property of blockchains, there are many other blockchains that are already secured differently or are working on novel security mechanisms, but as I said they just need to be proven out over the next few years.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by sethrin on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:32AM (#17713630)
I did indicate that the power issues are not inherent, even in the quoted sentence. I am disappointed in your response to the degree that it does not address other externalities. In some ways the general lack of exactitude in human affairs is a feature. There are also two sides to the issue of privacy, which is not impossible to achieve for an immutable distributed ledger, but not necessarily the natural tendency. Further issues may occur to you.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by dangerlibrary on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:23PM (#17712736)
I have no idea if this comment is satire.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by KaoruAoiShiho on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:25PM (#17712746)
Wow that guy got a lot of responses quick, I feel trolled.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by na85 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:10AM (#17713151)
Name some problem that blockchain solves that isn't already solved, other than "make illicit financial transactions".

I'll wait.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by felix_nagaand on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:31AM (#17713419)
Chain of custody.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:48AM (#17713487)
Escrow.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by KaoruAoiShiho on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:25PM (#17712743)
Those are not the conventionally understood definitions of web 1 and 2. 1 is about bringing massive audiences to conventional publishing. 2 is about democratizing the creator pool and welcoming p2p and ucg. I have no idea what you mean by societies.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tw04 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:24PM (#17712740)
I'll bite. How on Earth does blockchain in any way improve social media? Even an ounce?
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by jeremylylebrown on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:27PM (#17712759)
What sort of R&D needs to be accomplished for blockchain to hit the transformative stage? And how does it lead to web 3.0?
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by pymai on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:23AM (#17713831)
the safe network will be live in a few years so don't waste your time on r&d
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by siruncledrew on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:21PM (#17721260)
All the major social networks seem to end up like this at some point. They start out small, users really dig it and use it a lot, then the company experiences massive growth and begins to optimize around metrics, then the user/community experience slowly goes to shit.

Companies like Facebook endlessly proliferate they are all about “connecting people”, but what’s the point of even having people run it when “connecting people” really means just using algorithms to spoon feed bullshit to people so the company can count it as “engagement time” and report it back to their board on the quarterly conference call.

Digital social interaction isn’t a free public good centered around people as long as it’s privitized for the purpose of profit, and it’s also something the government can’t be trusted with providing either.

Honestly, I don’t think we have figured out a good solution or channel for social communication yet. I’m not trying to be a tinfoil hat wearer alluding to blockchain or p2p as the answer because who’s to say it is the answer. We can only use our current frustrations to push us to keep innovating further towards a solution that’s more natural and compelling to use.

Sometimes I long back to the days of AIM, because while it seems pretty feature poor compared to services today, it did the job that I needed it to do, which was provide an easy avenue to stay in touch with current friends and easily start conversations with new people. Simplicity is taken for granted in the world today, and even though we are in the “Web 3” age we shouldn’t just throw experiences and social channels from earlier days of the internet out the window for the sake of illusionary progress. Shit, I even meet people who are still passionate about Usenet, despite it being older than me. That’s damn powerful to see people care about the communities they were/are a part of and remember stories of building friendships and social interactions on the internet some decades later. These are things that seem lost today in a landscape focused on striving towards hitting target numbers.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by fullshark on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:34PM (#17713035)
Ironic this is here given Snap supposedly lost users with a redesign independent/at odds with such techniques.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by qvrjuec on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @01:42AM (#17713465)
It wasn't at odds with those techniques. The redesign was meant to force the users to view sponsored stories by sacrificing the usability of the app to view their friends stories. To look at the redesign as some kind of improvement for the users is totally wrong, IMO.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by graeme on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:09AM (#17716088)
Yes, but the point was they went on gut, not based on UI testing. It was a terrible blunder, since mostly reverted.

Actual messages would get pushed down because a new story from an acquantaince popped up. Even with no ads it was bad UI.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by dangero on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:57AM (#17713736)
I've noticed a similar effect with fast food restaurants. Fast food up-and-coming competitors tend to offer higher quality, fresher food at a slightly higher price. Problem is that when you look back at McDonald's 50 years ago, it had higher quality and fresher ingredients than it does today. Profit motive drove slow incremental decreases in quality till eventually new competitors could differentiate by offering a product probably somewhat similar to an original McDonald's burger.

Are we destined to see this same cycle with social media? Profit motive slowly degrades the platform privacy and feed quality till a new player can enter simply by offering something closer to the original product Facebook offered?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by trophycase on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:25AM (#17713850)
It's basically just the life cycle of nearly every corporation due to their incessant need to grow. Offer a great product and build a strong customer base, then slowly cut costs by worsening product or externalizing costs.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by stef25 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:47AM (#17715033)
> their incessant need to grow

This need is something I've never really understood and indeed is the root of all these problems. Zuck wouldn't be mister billionaire if he'd kept FB V1, but the world would have been better for it.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by jefe_ on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:16AM (#17715630)
Growth or opportunities for growth must be present to convince buyers and investors to exchange more-liquid assets like cash for less-liquid assets like ownership. I part with $100 that I can spend anywhere for a share of stock that I hope will grow in value. Without opportunity for growth I have no incentive to part with my $100.

In the Facebook example, if Zuckerberg didn't want to grow Facebook, but wanted to still capitalize on it, he could have found a buyer and sold. The buyer would have been interested in growing it, and committed resources to doing so. Growing or Selling were the only two real options that would deliver Zuckerberg any gain. Once he decided not to sell, his only option was to deliver investors growth, so they would be willing to place their money in Facebook.

Another example would be an iOS app. There are plenty of apps in the app store where the developer built it, put it out there, charged $0.99 and that was it. If the app meets a need, this can work for a while, but eventually either demand will change or competitors will arise and the developer would either need to update/grow their app to maintain their revenue stream.

Growth is a fundamental piece of the financial system and eventually everyone decides to either grow, sell, or undercapitalize their asset.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by stef25 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:23AM (#17716194)
Without wanting to sound like a socialist, couldn't these apps / businesses just be built to "cover costs"? Instead of producing 500 millionaires.

I'm not saying I could necessarily resist the temptation of becoming a millionaire at the cost of turning my great idea in to a shitty one, but I sure wouldn't feel good about it.

Perhaps I'm just a bit naive about these things.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by vitaflo on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:40PM (#17717314)
>This need is something I've never really understood

>Zuck wouldn't be mister billionaire if he'd kept FB V1

Are you sure you don't understand it?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by ace_of_spades on Thursday August 09, 2018 @03:42AM (#17722296)
Thanks for your comment!

While I agree with your overall outline that „something“ is lost from current social media, I would argue that analytics or more specifically analtical mindset in general should not be blamed for this. Analytics is simply a tool that can be used for good and for bad. The real problem are bad overall societal incentives and ideals (i.e., focus on profits and other narrow/short term metrics) which lead to missuse of these powerful and potentially highly useful/benefical tools.

So I don‘t think we necessarily need to resort to an complete change of the tech stack (i.e., web 3), but should simply try to support projects focused on better incentieves and ideals (e.g., Mastodon over Facebook/Twitter) no matter the technology stack. Nevertheless, I agree that web 3 may enable more idealistic/well aligned business models in the long run.

Another thing to push for may be more end user friendly legislation such as GDPR. While it may stiffle innovation by small companies in the short run, having long term standardization around good practices will hopefully create better and enable easier scale up of organizations in the future. Hope some researchers are coming up with good designs to investigate the effects of such legislation on the internet landscape. (On that note, can someone tell me again why impact evaluation of laws is not a standard practice, yet?! How much grieve could be spared if we decided to use evidence and facts to ground legislation...)

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by alexashka on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:57AM (#17713967)
The 'forms' may be different, the desires and needs stay the same.

People want to communicate with as little friction as possible - then some smarty pants thinks why don't I insert myself in the middle and be the creepy overlord.

It'd be novel and compelling if people thought beyond themselves for one second and wondered what they'd actually like to spend their life on. That'd be novel and compelling. It's been novel and compelling since the beginning of time, because it happens so rarely. I don't expect that to change. Sorry, carry on :)

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by tryitnow on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:35AM (#17716774)
I don't know if that's it at all. I think the more likely explanation is that all of these companies are competing for a single, finite resource: human attention.

Maybe the opportunities for developing new ways to exploit human attention are simply drying up. Between streaming video, games, social media, podcasts, and just plain old traditional media (TV, radio, newspapers) how much more room is there to grow?

If I'm right this could be the signal of the current tech bubble finally bursting.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Nightshaxx on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:09AM (#17716084)
I think Web 3.0 is going to be more focused on small communities and niche-focused platforms. Look at how many people shove money to twitch streamers and YouTube personalities that have minimal operating costs but extremely strong communities.

The whole reason companies like the web is because it provides high profit margins since compared to physical things, the web is incredibly cheap. Communites allow companies to make money off of feelings and comradre that their users build for them. Twitter doesn't have sense of community so people are quick to leave, but even if pewdiepie left YouTube, the platform would be fine because it has so many other niches that people would stay for.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by dalbasal on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @06:13AM (#17714543)
Maybe. I hope so.

But... If other mediums are a guide, the messages don't get more artisanal over time. They can get more mass produced, "click-baity' and sacrine...TV=>reality TV ; Ne spaoers => tabloids.

These mediums aren't purely crap. We get Westworld and GOt too, but the thick part of the pyramid is low cost, replicable-by-hacks, low brow "content."

The online version of that is the algorithmic bias confirmation version of flame wars and cat pictures.

Specifically on online social media... History shows these have lifecycles. Digg, Reddit, stumbleupon... these were different in year one. Novelty wears off, low hanging fruit gets eaten and mature games take over.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by JacobJans on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @09:09AM (#17715577)
It should be noted that Facebook is pushing very hard for more meaningful interactions in the form of Groups. These groups are taking an increasingly large amount of the newsfeed. Facebook's stated goal with these groups is to create meaningful communities. I think, at least to some extent, they are succeeding with this goal.

Anecdotally, I know several people who say groups are the only thing keeping them on the network.

Interestingly, the groups also dovetail well into the continued growth of their ad platform; they tend to be interest based, so they help with ad targeting.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:04AM (#17714809)
Yeah there's still billions of people that aren't online yet, and even without all of the optimization targets, people still use services like Facebook, Snapchat, Whatsapp, etc multiple times per day - all of these services will remain highly profitable even with declining usage figures.

It's just that their share prices will take a hit and shareholders will be disgruntled. Fuck those guys though.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by majos on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @10:13AM (#17716118)
I'm not sure how close tech companies are to monetizing the kinds of users who aren't online yet. For example, I talked to somebody at Microsoft a while back who said that Bing doesn't even serve ads to many African users because there isn't a sufficient advertiser base trying to court those users. So the last few billion users may be we less profitable than the first few billion.
Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by chewz on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @03:57AM (#17713968)
I have quit FB like 6 years ago and stopped using Twitter (I still have account I guess) like 2 years ago.

It doesn't mean the web became a lonely place for me - Github, HN, some music apps, Instagram, Duo, e-mail etc. What I have left behind is pictures of newborns, awkard 'friends', news and shallow exchanges - which I am not fond of also in real.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by est on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @05:21AM (#17714253)
> What's happened is that most of the major social networks only hire and promote people who make decisions primarily based on analytics

Few years back there was a similar company called Zynga. Analytics was its secret of success as well as demise. Snap or FB is on the same course but with an evidently longer life span.

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by logicallee on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:11AM (#17714847)
>Web 3 is just getting started though, and with new technologies are going to come novel and compelling forms of social interaction.

Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean by Web 3, what are examples? What is just getting started?

Re:Snap’s Drop in Active Users Could Signal a Social Media Peak by chrisvalleybay on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @07:15AM (#17714869)
Decentralization is one part of Web 3. ActivityPub could be one technology that is relevant to this story.

Edit: Moving things out of silos, re-focusing on the content and its value to people, instead of what's relevant to advertisers – as have been mentioned throughout this thread.