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Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:35PM (#16386822)
When you choose Windows, the computer uses you. When you choose Linux, you use the computer. Stop complaining and start switching. It should be apparent by now that Microsoft isn't going to stop their bad behavior.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:33PM (#16387356)
The majority of people who could use Linux exclusively (only need a browser, don't need Office compatibility, nothing fancy) buy a "just works" Windows laptop or tablet and I bet 99% of them don't even know what Linux is. Even then you get some weird cases like banking software not working on Linux and they ask you to install Windows again. And kids wants to play what their friends are playing, it's hard to break the cycle. Oh you want to play PUBG? Too bad. Some games you might even be able to make it work with some baby sitting but it will drain all your energy and you are not getting paid for the job.

If you want Linux to have a chance it needs to play the long game and that won't ever happen. Everything I own except my gaming PC is Linux but it's not even worth trying to convert others. I find pretty immature to suggest "if your job demands Windows, just quit", "just spend 20 hours trying to make this thing that just works in Windows", "you don't need AAA games". I say immature because I was doing this shit a few years ago and I still cringe about it.

In my experience trying to teach people about the importance of privacy is mostly futile. What worked was, and I only did this to a close family friend, to show him what I could learn about him just by showing what was stored in AppData and many other folders. Some thumbnails will be forever ingrained in my mind.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:20PM (#16387729)
I'm getting sick of this dichotomy. It's trivial to install both. Keep windows 10 on a partition big enough for your games/Netflix/etc., and use Debian/Archlinux/NixOS/whatever for everything else.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by soared on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:44PM (#16387971)
Trivial for someone who could use linux. 99.9% of computer users don't even know dual booting is possible.

Also my laptop literally cannot have linux installed on it thanks to UEFI.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by dyukqu on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:10PM (#16388218)
You have to disable both "fast startup" and "secure boot" in order to install linux.

(I installed Ubuntu 17.10 alongside Win10 few weeks ago on my UEFI laptop.)

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by funkymike on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:21PM (#16388306)
I gave up on dual booting on a regular basis when Windows 10, once again, turned fast startup back on with a forced update. Now I use linux for everything at home.

Windows 10 is basically malware at this point.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by twostoned on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:39PM (#16388433)
I agree about the malware, I often make this analogy. I was in an exam today and people went to turn on their computers to write the test, we have two hours, and Windows decides to do an update. No asking, no options. These aren't power users; these people struggle with basic computing and are trying to get through school. So the administration worked with them so they could actually write the test but come on. You don't have control of your machine with Windows and I find that inappropriate.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by colemickens on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:43PM (#16389923)
Never once has this been true when I've pressed someone on it. It's FUD that's been repeated for years and oft reinvigorated by people that can't be bothered to Google or change a couple UEFI settings.

It's not even true in many (most?) cases that Secure Boot must be disabled.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:33PM (#16388383)
> Also my laptop literally cannot have linux installed on it thanks to UEFI.

Does it have "secure boot" that can't be disabled/other keys added?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by majormajor on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:49PM (#16388486)
If you're going to to claim it's trivial, maybe you shouldn't mention Arch in the same sentence. :p You don't want someone's first impression of Linux to be that.

Typing this from a laptop that has an Arch partition. I use it all the time for dev stuff. It sure as fuck wasn't trivial to set up.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:27PM (#16387794)
I don't understand your point. If you're talking about my setup it doesn't really matter (I only use Windows for gaming and at work). If it's about maintaining friends and family computers with dual boot then good luck with that. For the rest and vast majority of people, that panics when a desktop icon moves, dual boot will fry their brains.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:39PM (#16387923)
The people whose brains are not fried by dual booting should be dual booting and moving the platform steadily forward to reduce the excuses for the people whose brains are fried by dual booting.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:53PM (#16388062)
So basically you want me to setup dual boot, teach, offer free support for the rest of their lives, for every person that I know? Because that's the only group who could do what we are talking about.

Or maybe you want me to convince them they should pay someone else to do that because Stallman was right.

I'm sure some people are lucky enough to have friends and family who would accept your values instantly, learn the setup easily and be glad to pay someone else to do it. I can only speak from my own experiences and they don't reflect that (and as much as I might make a comment here and there I won't ever again try to push "my values" down someone's else throat).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:57PM (#16388109)
Did you even read my comment?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:14PM (#16388254)
I did and that reply is based on me not believing a few "coders" will make year of the Linux desktop ever happen. So if you need Linux: it won't be viable alone in the near future (I'm talking about Linux offering everything Windows users need, like commercial software and AAA games so they don't need anything else) for the non tech savvy person and dual boot is also not an option in most cases unless there's some technical person "sponsoring" the whole deal. Either paid or not.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:27PM (#16388352)
> So basically you want me to setup dual boot, teach, offer free support for the rest of their lives, for every person that I know?

Do you handle all of their Windows-related technical issues?

Are they incapable of learning to do it themselves?

Really?

Are you absolutely sure?

It's all-too-common for people to become dependent on technically-minded friends/family like us, but the fact is that it really isn't difficult for them to do it themselves.

The main barriers they face are:

1. I haven't done this before.

2. I don't immediately see the benefit.

What it comes down to is self-reliance. We can teach people to rely on themselves instead of rely on us.

As the saying goes:

> Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for the night. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

... something like that, anyway.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:44PM (#16388461)
People don't want to feel dumb (or don't want to learn too much Computers so they aren't Nerds) so they find excuses and don't want to use anything "complicated". And good people don't want to abuse your time. That's my real life experience, maybe on the internet it's not the same.

For thinkers, problems are an opportunity to learn. Others, they don't see it that way, they want things to just work without making them think. If anyone you're trying to "teach" and "show them the way" ever loses money or have any kind of non trivial issue because "your linug broke my microsoft access" you'll be forever the guy that broke his computer. And he'll hate Linux forever.

"Yes nana, you just have to install linux-headers first"

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:22PM (#16387750)
Trivial to install both but a real hassle to actually use both.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by keithnz on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:58PM (#16388110)
Trvial once you choose your distro :)

funny thing is when you install various distros you have a look at what's installed and you go "geeze it's installed a bunch of crap apps"

I used to run dual boot, but then got annoyed with that, then used windows primarily and VM'd linux, and now I use the linux subsystem in windows and occassionally fire up the VM.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by juliangoldsmith on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:35PM (#16387872)
Not really. You reboot your computer, and press a key to pick which one you want.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:43PM (#16387965)
That, in itself, can be kind of annoying (interrupt all your downloads or whatever you are doing), and it doesn't get at the other issues -- having to run updates for both, having two incompatible filesystems where it's annoying to fetch a document from one and use it on the other, doubling the amount of setup and configuration you have to do, and so on. Every time I've set up a dual-boot system I've ended up just never using one of the options.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:17PM (#16388271)
> That, in itself, can be kind of annoying

Of course, but is it more annoying than using Windows all the time? OP leads me to belive a growing number of windows users might think otherwise. It's also worth noting that rebooting is an order of magnitude faster than it was 10 years ago.

> having to run updates for both

Updates are a pain in Windows, but they are not in any serious GNU/Linux distro I have ever used. This is one of the main reasons that users are frustrated with Windows in the first place.

> having two incompatible filesystems where it's annoying to fetch a document from one and use it on the other

This is a real problem when you are using Windows, but not when you are using Linux. The idea here is to only use Windows when you need it anyway. It's an inconvenience, sure, but is it more of an inconvenience than using Windows all the time? That's up to the user. Personally, the answer is no.

> doubling the amount of setup and configuration you have to do

Not so much, if you seriously use GNU/Linux for everything you don't need Windows for. Besides, configuration isn't a big issue unless you are like me, and want everything exactly your way; although, GNU/Linux is the only way I can get that.

> Every time I've set up a dual-boot system I've ended up just never using one of the options.

That's you, and that's fine. The best setup for you is almost definitely not the best setup for most other people. That is the entire reason to use and promote free software: liberty.

Windows has made dual-booting difficult on purpose, because proprietary software begets proprietary software and control. Thankfully, there has been plenty of work in the other direction for those of us who want to control our computers, as opposed to the inverse.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:27PM (#16388696)
> Of course, but is it more annoying than using Windows all the time?

In a word: yes.

I have at different points used Windows, Linux, and OS X as primary desktop operating systems, so I am not operating from a sense of total ignorance of what other systems are like.

My experience with Linux was that I needed to do far more configuration because lots of hardware wouldn't work right out of the box and needed a lot of tweaking and digging through Linux forums for someone with the same problem. I'm really not interested in doing that kind of thing on my personal computer anymore.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:25AM (#16390083)
When is the last time you used a major Linux distro?

From my experience, installing and using Linux has been the most straightforward, especially compared to windows.

And that's the point: we all have different experiences, so I think it's a bad idea to tell someone they are going to have your bad experiences of they try something new, because better software ends up getting a bad rap.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:19AM (#16391565)
You don't seem to have any qualms about sharing negative Windows experiences. Is the claim here that I should never share my opinion of software I have used?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Saturday February 17, 2018 @12:53AM (#16399285)
Negative experiences with windows are shared, because windows is proprietary, and therefore consistent. This entire thread is about one of them.

I haven't had any negative experience with CUPS, and if I had, that wouldn't define my experience with GNU/Linux.

I don't have an issue with you sharing experiences. I do get frustrated when those experiences are used to define GNU/Linux to those who haven't experienced it at all.

There are too many people who hear that GNU/Linux is not for them, when it is really a fantastic alternative to windows. There's an attitude that free software will always fail people (which is not true), and I find that attitude not simply unfortunate, but malicious.

The way that things improve is for manufacturers to see demand; and that won't happen if people don't see free software as the viable alternative that it is.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by juliangoldsmith on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:14PM (#16388624)
I agree with most of what the sibling post said, but the incompatible filesystems isn't much of an issue anymore.

In my experience, NTFS on Linux works very well. Certainly well enough for any average user.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:25PM (#16388682)
Oh, the last time I tried it it came with a bunch of disclaimers to never mount an NTFS filesystem as read/write on a hard drive whose contents you weren't OK with losing, but it's good to hear things have gotten better.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:28AM (#16390097)
Everything that deals with filesystems or partitions has that kind of disclaimer.

There fact is that you should always backup data you care about.

It's the same as saying they aren't responsible for your computer suddenly catching fire. Is that likely to happen? No.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:18AM (#16391560)
Not that kind of disclaimer but a serious one that corruption was very likely
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by psyc on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:44PM (#16387970)
Now explain to a not-super-technical user how to configure GRUB to boot Windows by default, or how to remove GRUB when they give up on Linux.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:21PM (#16388303)
A not-super-technical user can learn to do these things.

Is the liberty a free OS provides worth the effort to that user? That's entirely up to them.

It's easy to disregard change as too difficult to approach, especially when coming from such a controling and abusive environment (Windows/OS X). In reality, GNU/Linux is so much easier to use than Windows; most people have simply learned the latter first.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:29PM (#16388711)
> In reality, GNU/Linux is so much easier to use than Windows; most people have simply learned the latter first.

That just isn't true. But don't take it from me; here's esr: http://web.archive.org/web/20180109063613/www.catb.org/esr/w...

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:33AM (#16390126)
Just because one piece of software was unnecessarily difficult for someone does not mean the entire ecosystem is broken.

The problem we have is that a similar problem in Windows is instantly forgiven, because there is nothing you can do about it; whereas in Linux people expect a higher standard (which is often met) because that arbitrary limitation no longer exists.

Sure windows has gotten a lot better since XP, but it has a long way to go to catch up to circa 2006 Ubuntu.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:22AM (#16391578)
The article says that the point isn't about CUPS in particular, but generally poor UX in Linux GUIs, and how Windows and Mac in this regard wipe the floor with Linux software in this respect, and I think it's completely right. There just isn't really a culture of providing a consistent UI experience or making the UI a first-class citizen in Linux-land.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by avsteele on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:09PM (#16398173)
Disagree. YMMV, but the last time I tried to install both I had a nightmarish time. Fedora worked, but both Ubuntu and Mint gave me massive headaches.

Even when I got one installed I had problems with getting flat mouse speeds, not being able to adjust mouse scroll wheel speeds, even the frickin clock was even messed up. ( had to dig around for the issue then figure out the two OSes where saving the time in different ways every time each shut down)

I've got pages of notes for fixes to various issues I encountered trying to get dual booting working smoothly.

There's no way I'd recommend this to anyone who wants a computer that actually works without a hassle.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thaumasiotes on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:52PM (#16388509)
I've done it. It is indeed trivial to install both.

But nobody cares how easy it is to install both. Using both is a huge pain.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:07PM (#16388583)
rEFInd is a good option if you don't like things changing under your feet
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by GordonS on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:00AM (#16391206)
A super-simple alternative is WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux), which let's you run Ubuntu in Windows 10 - I'm sure it won't work for some use cases (e.g running the docker daemon), but it's really rather good!

Bash is so much more powerful than the Windows shell, and try as I might I just don't like Powershell, so WSL gives me a great shell while running in Windows - no need for rebooting or VMs!

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by youseecomrade on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:02PM (#16393737)
The point was about not being spied on, so not using Windows in the first place. They think dual boot could be used to minimize Windows usage, when absolutely required.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by coryfklein on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:23AM (#16393419)
Many computers these days have an SSD and an HDD. Is it trivial to dual boot in that case? Do you partition both? One? Which one? After partitioning, which partition do you install your OS on?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by TheAdamAndChe on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:10PM (#16393807)
Yes, it's pretty trivial. Ubuntu handles everything with the installation, then GRUB provides a boot menu that lets you choose which OS to use. More granular control is available to those who care, but it's still easy for those who don't care.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Saturday February 17, 2018 @01:00AM (#16399309)
It's trivial.

You have your disks listed, each with its free/used space. You click the one you want to install to, and drag a slider to decide how much space to use.

That's how easy it was to install Ubuntu over a decade ago.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by ShabbosGoy on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:44PM (#16387969)
Netflix works fine on Linux. You can even run it on a Raspberry Pi.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:05PM (#16388173)
Netflix does not allow 1080p streaming to a browser other than Safari/Edge/IE. I did try this firefox plugin[0], and it works sometimes, but it is a bit flaky.

[0] https://github.com/vladikoff/netflix-1080p-firefox#with-exte...

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:45PM (#16386904)
It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows.

Sure, there are some open source alternatives, but they are only rarely as good, and even more seldom better, than their Windows counterparts.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by bsilvereagle on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:02PM (#16387074)
> especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows.

I have gotten around this with a virtualized Windows installation for CAD applications. The Windows VM goes online for software activation only.

With VFIO, a dedicated graphics card, and an nVME SSD I don't feel any performance degradation. The graphics card and nVME drive are passed directly to the VM. Some simple benchmarks show there is ~3% performance decline in the VM vs booting it native, but I don't "feel" it.

Granted, picking VFIO compliant hardware and setting everything up is far outside the ability of the average Windows user.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by kakarot on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:08PM (#16388206)
What card are you using, and what virtualization solution?

I'm running my Windows KVM on a GTX 1080, and it took months and months to work out all the little kinks causing system instability... now it runs quite smooth. I could never ever go back.

I've been slowly collecting blog posts and articles with the idea of writing an updated guide to making a completely stable and optimized VM with vfio, hugetables, reduced DPC latency, bridged networking, etc., written for audiences that aren't too familiar with Linux.

It would benefit adoption really well if someone unfamiliar with Linux could visit a single resource that explains everything they need to know.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by machinesmachine on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:09PM (#16387138)
I'm really surprised it works at all, great job man
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by bsilvereagle on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:21PM (#16387246)
VFIO is the real deal - if you can find the right hardware. Unfortunately, there isn't a master list of VFIO compatible hardware (that I know of). You have to scour reddit or the Red Hat VFIO mailing lists hoping someone has posted the motherboard/processor you're interested in.

Once you have hardware, there are lots of resources for pulling it off:

https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vfio.txt

https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfio-users/

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...

https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by walterbell on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:56PM (#16387558)
Lenovo, Dell or HP business (vPro) desktops will work. Dell T20/T30 is often on sale for under $500.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by giggles_giggles on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:13PM (#16387183)
What hypervisor are you using to do this?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by mykull on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:10PM (#16387658)
I do the same thing for a "virtual gaming pc" on proxmox with qemu/kvm. it was a pain to get working right with my specific hardware and with proxmox as a base, but is pretty nice now that it works. Many people use Arch linux or redhat distros to do this also, but pretty much any major distro should be capable. AFAIK it works on VMware ESXi too.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by GordonS on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:11AM (#16391262)
Wow, I just assumed virtualisation would kill performance - didn't realise it would even be an option
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by blibble on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387807)
works out of the box on debian stable with KVM these days, assuming your hardware supports it
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by makecheck on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:39PM (#16387411)
Yes “but” how do expect open alternatives to become better? Contribute to a project (with a very low bar for “contribute”, anything from “file a bug” to “fix the documentation” to “make artwork”). Yes, some big companies also push Linux forward but individuals who want good alternatives can do something to make those alternatives happen.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:00PM (#16387585)
An open source project for external customers (i.e. us) operated by a bunch of unpaid volunteers will never really be able to compete with an application with paid developers, invested users, and the supporting departments.

I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good.

For a corollary: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936629310785437696

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:09PM (#16387644)
>I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good.

Hah, this is rich. Many open source products are far better than their proprietary alternatives, especially developer oriented products (which is natural considering that developers tend to use open source and tend to improve their own tools).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:18PM (#16388279)
I'll give you (some) software development tools. Still, things like Sublime Text, Visual Studio, and the entire Jet Brains lineup which give lie to the "especially" part of the developer orientated toolset.

But...

Gimp is far better than Photoshop and Illustrator?

Blender is far better than 3DS Max and Maya?

Libre Office is far better than Microsoft Office?

Darkroom is far better than Lightroom?

Honestly, I can't even think of an open source CAD one that can even compare favorably to SketchUp, let alone AutoCad.

If you have to, there are many tools available to do a job on Linux, with a backup of VMs and Wine. They are not, however, "far better".

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by majormajor on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:59PM (#16388541)
Yeah. Making software to sell forces you to listen to the market (not the same thing as just listening to your existing customers) if you want to grow your sales.

Emacs is more powerful than IntelliJ, say, but it's vastly inferior in terms of learning curve and UX. There are some things I'd rather do in it than in IntelliJ, but it's not what I'm going to use for day to day Android dev, say. Or what I'd point newcomers at.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:11PM (#16389179)
> Emacs is more powerful than IntelliJ, say

Depends how you define "powerful;" IntelliJ understands a lot more about your code than most Emacs plug-ins.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:27PM (#16387790)
On the other hand, when it comes to categories like games, video game console emulators, office productivity applications, document publishing, etc., the open-source alternatives are generally way worse.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:38PM (#16387904)
Open source video game console emulators are certainly not worse. If anything, the best by far emulator (Dolphin) is open source, but even beyond that almost every open source VGC emulator is also open source and those emulators tend to be the most long running ones (almost always because the developers of the closed source emulators lose interest). For some systems, you have only open source emulators.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:40PM (#16387935)
There are several systems where your only option is Windows, unless the situation has changed drastically since I last looked into it. I remember Dreamcast, Saturn, DS, PSP, and PS2 being in this category, and also the options for N64/PSX not being very good, the last time I was interested. Of course, someone can respond to arguments about any program being missing with "well, I don't care about those," but you can't expect anyone to find that persuasive if they're not already converted.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:55PM (#16388078)
Dreamcast: https://github.com/reicast/reicast-emulator

Saturn: https://yabause.org/

DS: https://desmume.org/

PSP: http://www.ppsspp.org/index.html

PS2: https://pcsx2.net/

All of these are open source, support Linux, and have good compatability.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:24PM (#16388674)
The situation may have improved, but the last time I tried this Yabause was a joke and the non-Windows versions of Desmume and PCSX2 were like a year behind and clearly not the main priority for anyone.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:32PM (#16388727)
I can't say I know much about Yabause, but Desmume and PCSX2 have worked quite well for me on Linux, no problems whatsoever. PCSX2 was last updated in December on Arch Linux, and Desmume is up to date with the latest stable release for all platforms.

With respect, you should be looking these things up for yourself before you make claims like the ones you've been making in this thread.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:04PM (#16389159)
Why the hell do I have to "look up" personal experiences I had that made me dislike using Linux and OS X? It's great to hear some of my issues were out-of-date but come on. I tried using these non-Windows operating systems and eventually switched back because I didn't like the experience. An imperious series of posts telling me that I'm wrong because there has been an improvement and, anyway, shouldn't want to do what I want to do, is not exactly persuading me to feel differently.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:14PM (#16389193)
Because you're posting in a public forum and spreading misinformation about the platform with your ignorance.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:33PM (#16389270)
I see you haven't understood what I said. The specific examples I cited were real in the past. Even if those, specifically, are now solved, am I to believe this will never be an issue again? Because I think what's more likely is that non-Windows emulators will be behind by a few years in the future as well.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:36PM (#16389280)
They're not behind, I doubt they've ever been behind, and if they get behind, it's a trivial matter to prod the package maintainer for an update. These emulators support Linux as a first class platform and hell, for several of them Windows is probably a second-class platform.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:52PM (#16388046)
There are emulators on Linux in active development for all the systems you've mentioned, most even being available in Debian (and derivative) repositories.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:54PM (#16388071)
I mean, great, but I don't want something that will maybe work in a few years when there's something that works well now.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:32PM (#16387840)
>games

See pretty much every other reply in this thread for my take on this

>video game console emulators

Wrong, most emulators are open source, support Linux, and work great.

>office productivity applications

"way worse" is a bit harsh for describing LibreOffice. It works quite well in my experience.

>document publishing

I don't know what this is supposed to be. LaTeX is pretty good, though.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:41PM (#16387946)
> Wrong, most emulators are open source, support Linux, and work great.

As I said to the other guy, for a number of systems there's no emulator except the one on Windows.

> "way worse" is a bit harsh for describing LibreOffice. It works quite well in my experience.

Yeah, because your experience doesn't involve using the advanced features that have no analogue and you aren't overly concerned that the formatting will look totally different if someone opens it in MSOffice.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:47PM (#16387998)
>As I said to the other guy, for a number of systems there's no emulator except the one on Windows.

The only one that comes to mind is that one Wii U emulator. Xenia doesn't support Linux but it's open source and the lack of support more a reflection of its relative immaturity than not being possible (I'm certain a Linux port will come eventually, I was even working on it myself for a while).

>Yeah, because your experience doesn't involve using the advanced features that have no analogue and you aren't overly concerned that the formatting will look totally different if someone opens it in MSOffice.

If the formatting of a docx looks wrong in LibreOffice that's not really a big deal if you can still read the content, which is usually the case. Writing new documents should use ODF, which MSWord supports fine (often transparently, non-technical users will probably see a file with the same MSWord icon and no file extension).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Maert on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:49AM (#16392259)
> If the formatting of a docx looks wrong in LibreOffice that's not really a big deal if you can still read the content, which is usually the case.

You sound like someone who never collaborated on an Office file with someone from another company.

If a company wants to be taken seriously, and some of their work involves exchanging and collaborating on presentations, text documents or tabular files, you cannot not use MS Office.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:56AM (#16392716)
Even Mac Office used to be really bad here, although I think the newest versions are significantly closer to the real thing.

I feel like this is kind of an extreme example of something I see a lot on HN: hackers who literally cannot imagine ways of using a computer that are outside of their experience.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:55PM (#16388083)
In some contexts it is a big deal, though. I suppose the answer to that is that everyone who uses Word should learn to use Latex instead but that's not realistic.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:24PM (#16387769)
> An open source project ... will never be able to compete with ... pays developers ...

There are plenty of examples where they have done just that. Blender is probably the most obvious.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gmueckl on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:45PM (#16387982)
Blender is just the worst example that you could have picked. It is a tiny toy compared to the commercial packages in that field. It is like GIMP: just enough for those with simple needs.

KDE 3 would have been a much better example. But these days are gone, too.

What about R and Jenkins? Are there paid developers working on these?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:20PM (#16388299)
> What about R and Jenkins? Are there paid developers working on these?

I feel confidant in saying that yeah, there probably are. They're being paid to implement features and fix bugs found by their companies, who use R and Jenkins.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:52PM (#16388054)
> It is a tiny toy compared to the commercial packages in that field.

How so?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gmueckl on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:36PM (#16388412)
Oh boy, this is going to get depressing.

Blender cannot cope with the kind of stuff that is thrown at commercial DCC tools in feature production. Parts of it don't scale, others fall short of what would be required. Many features are kind of there on paper, but are not fleshed out that well.

Blender faces a sort of a chicken and egg problem: if you don't push it, you can't find out what needs fixing. But nobody in the industry is willing to try because they know that it will break too easily.

This is sort of why the Blender Foundation creates these open source movie projects: they are there to figure out what needs fixing. A ton of new features had to be created for each new short. Last time I bothered to check, many of these features were stuff that would have been considered absolutely essential in VFX workflow at the time the Blender developers managed to implement it.

The downside to these projects is that they also lead to the addition of features like compositing and editing workflows that are out of place in a DCC tool (especially the editing part). Blender started to overextend itself and ended up with too few developers to push all of these areas equally well.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:35PM (#16388397)
To be honest, it can be summed up with one sentence:

Blender is striving to meet the features and capabilities of Maya and 3ds Studio, not the other way around.

A more "business" orientated sentence:

Blender is required to to split its focus to provide a complete movie/game making package including a movie editor, shader editor (i.e. photoshop), and animation editor, an audio editor, a physics editor, a compositing editor, and a game editor; Maya and 3ds Studio do not.

Blender just can't keep up. It's a good tool, no doubt about it, but few professional users will end up using it to make money.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:42PM (#16388454)
I can comprehend what you are saying, but I disagree.

Over the past decade or so, Blender has been on par, and even ahead of "industry standard" tools.

It isn't required to split its focus. It is able to. That is something proprietary software from a company would fail at. It's something that free software and collaboration succeed at.

The biggest benefit is that it has all of these tools in a cohesive environment.

Instead of a photoshop/GIMP-like menu of functions, Blender is a cohesive manageable UI.

There are, in fact, a wide variety of professionals using Blender to make money. You don't hear about it, because telling you what they use is not their perogative.

What features to Maya/Max/etc. have that Blender is really behind on today? I can't think of any.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gmueckl on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:02PM (#16388559)
Blender is overextended. That's what Blender developers said openly. Parts like the compositor don't get much love at all. They were merely included because they were needed to fill huge gaping holes in the production pipeline for their demo movies. After that, interest in them dropped to near zero, but there were no better alternatives for a long time.

Now, there is at least Neutron as an open source compositing tool that seems to be filling that particular hole now much more competently than Blender ever could.

I do not understand how you can consider Blender's UI "manageable" in any way. There are much better ways to build UIs for enormously complex DCC tools. My go-to example for that has been Maya for a long time, but since a couple of years, Autodesk has bolted on features in a way that spectacularly breaks the internal consistency, logic and general discoverability of features in Maya. Even though, Blender's UI is still an unsorted mess compared to that.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:13PM (#16389188)
> It isn't required to split its focus. It is able to. That is something proprietary software from a company would fail at. It's something that free software and collaboration succeed at.

Expanding feature sets is something commercial software fails at? The biggest reason nobody professionally uses the open-source alternatives is they're missing features.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:23PM (#16387757)
It's great that people are willing to do this but it seems like kind of an absurd bar to just doing general computing.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Retra on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:08PM (#16387642)
I think if you make development of portable software much easier, then people'll have no excuse for not building software that works on multiple platforms except "we specifically choose to not target that platform."
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:14PM (#16389194)
Java's been around for a long time.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:31PM (#16387340)
>It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows.

I'm both, and you're definitely wrong. 155 of my 343 steam games have direct native ports. I've just stopped playing stellaris and started playing KSP. I've been a linux gamer for the last three years and it's been a better experience, not worse. I dominate on ballistic overkill because the input lag is noticeably lower on linux.

I'm also a software developer, and with the exception of dotnet development, software development is a considerably smoother and more consistant experience on linux. It grates every day to have to use windows at work, and I do half of my work inside a linux VM.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:24PM (#16387760)
Software developers are probably one of the few professional groups with virtually no software that ties them explicitly to Windows or MacOS. Accountants, artists, video editors, modelers, engineers, car mechanics... so many others rely on software only available on Windows.

On the gaming note - I'm glad you enjoy the games available on Linux, and that you were OK giving up some games you enjoyed. Personally, I'm working my way through WoW, with some dabbling in Space Engineers and Subnautica. None of which are available on Linux, without diving into the world of Wine.

Could I give up Windows PC gaming entirely? Sure.Could I dive into the convoluted and not-always-reliable world of Wine? Sure. Could Bob Ross have given up oil painting for acrylics? Sure. But... it doesn't sound like much fun.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by yesenadam on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:01PM (#16388146)
In the chess world, everyone—every strong player in the world, it seems—uses ChessBase, which is Windows only. They used to have a Mac version years ago but it apparently was the worst software ever. It's used for studying recent master games, storing and training on your opening theory, analysing with computer engines to find new moves in the opening, studying the games of your next opponent etc. Other programs have similar functions, but it's more powerful, and no grandmaster uses anything else. Also its data format is secret, so no other software can convert to or from ChessBase format. It was created by some Germans in collaboration with Kasparov in the 1980s, and was instrumental to his unprecedented level of opening theory knowledge.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by woolvalley on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:56PM (#16388099)
Unity is probably the big reason why many games have native linux & macos versions today.

On macos, the mac versions tend to be slower than the windows versions on the same hardware.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by TomMarius on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:44PM (#16387446)
What about AutoCAD, Inventor, Photoshop, AfterEffects, Lightroom, ...?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:13PM (#16387683)
Maya, Sketchbook, Fusion, Visual Studio, DirectX, Microsoft Office, Acrobat, ...

Here's one really simple example for you of why this Windows software matters to a very large community of professionals: most accounting work is both taught and done in Excel.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:41PM (#16387945)
Autocad/inventor->OpenScad/FreeCad

Photoshop->Gimp or just run it with wine

Lightroom->Darktable

Here's a few other pretty awesome art tools you might want to know about BTW: Krita Blender Inkscape

If we're doing "what abouts" though, what about:

freely interchangable desktop layouts

native docker support

a user-friendly terminal

an os kernel that is designed to be malware resistant

Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own. Custom launchers are one of the most downloaded android app categories, don't try to tell me people don't want it. But hey, at least windows finally got multiple desktops by cribbing the idea from linux after two decades of unsuccessfully trying to tell their customers that it wasn't really that good a feature.

If the best you can say about your operating system is "adobe supports it", which is what it seems like you're saying, then oh dear. Like, I get it, photoshop is pretty darn good. But for realsies, we're in a thread where the title post is about microsoft installing random crap on your computer without permission. This is the same company that is showing ads on your lock screen and start bar[1], has been formally chastised by national governments for it's handling of telemetry[2], autoinstalled updates that bricked peoples laptops[3] and then autoinstalled other updates that put other peoples computers in reboot loops[4]. They're gonna keep doing this stuff. For goodness sake, they incentivised peoples "upgrades" from windows 7 by installing nagware with a deliberately malicious UI[5], and attempting to directly cause professional conflict for sysadmins with stability concerns[6].

You're part of an eternal beta of questionable QA control at the hands of a company that has a documented history of behaving unethically. Do they have to send someone round to your house to kill and eat your cat in front of you before you decide you could maybe dig deep and stoop to learning gimp?

[1]https://www.pcworld.com/article/3039827/windows/7-ways-windo...

[2]http://www.zdnet.com/article/french-authorities-serve-notice...

[3]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/25/windows-10-...

[4]http://news.softpedia.com/news/windows-10-fall-creators-upda...

[5]https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest...

[6]https://www.windowschimp.com/admins-angered-new-windows-10-u...

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by TomMarius on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:58PM (#16388858)
I wasn't asking for alternatives, that's not an option. You have to stay compatible with the rest of the company/industry. Also do you really think these CAD tools are comparable at all?

Using Wine in work is also not an option, it is too unpredictable (although it's improving at a fast pace).

I know Linux has these features and that's why I personally use it. Clearly they're not the focus of other users though.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:08PM (#16389171)
>I wasn't asking for alternatives, that's not an option. You have to stay compatible with the rest of the company/industry. Also do you really think these CAD tools are comparable at all?

If you're building a helicopter, they're not comparable at all. However, the word professional is a rather wider scope than that, and they're excellent for anyone whos business does not revolve around engineering, but has it as an auxiliary. Just as there are whole industries, like banking, that have software developers as a subset of the org chart, there are whole industries that need just a little bit of 3d CAD work.

I would not recommend professional grade adobe editing packages to an independent real estate agent that basically just needs to crop and color-correct photos, and I would not recommend autodesk inventor to a city planner that just needs to 3d print stand-in terrain. Nor would I suggest a $40,000 stratasys printer to them by the way. If you're not going to use the advanced features then the cost is high and the licensing compliance is more painful for no net benefit. GIMP and FreeCAD are exceptional front-runners for these kinds of purposes.

By the way, staying compatible with the industry is a great way to be non-exceptional. I'm not saying linux is the magical bullet of business success (because it's not), but if whatever you're doing is 100% compatible with industry software, then you're not doing anything that someone else hasn't already thought of. If you ever decide you want to move outside the bounds of what others have already done, you'll suddenly discover that open source is a competitive advantage, because it's much easier to extend it to the bleeding edge.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by dagw on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:13PM (#16389800)
Autocad/inventor->OpenScad/FreeCad

I'm sorry, but that is a complete joke. The distance between gimp and photoshop or darkroom and lightroom is tiny compared to the distance between even base autocad and the open source alternatives. And that's before we start talking about autocad variants like Civil3d and all the third party tools that are built on top of autocad.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:56PM (#16388095)
> Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own.

Actually, it is worse: you used to be able to replace the default desktop and install your own from the first versions of Windows up until recently. Now you can't and with Windows 8 Microsoft removed a ton of functionality when it comes to customization (e.g. you cannot disable DWM and you cannot use the classic theme - which was the only one with support for totally customizable color schemes).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by ChoGGi on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:50PM (#16388489)
>> Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own.

So these shell replacements I've been using for over a decade don't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternative_shells_for...

The only time explorer.exe is running on my computer is when I need some special control panel setting.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by GordonS on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:22AM (#16391314)
Most of them seem to be discontinued - can I ask which one you use, and what benefits it has over the standard Windows 10 shell?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by hnzix on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:51PM (#16389954)
> stoop to learning gimp?

Gimp is to Photoshop as Nano is to Emacs.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by suby on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:01PM (#16387592)
Maybe I'm misreading this, but if I'm not, just posting to let you know that Stellaris definitely has a Linux port.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:48PM (#16388003)
I know, I've been playing it tonnes. Looking forward very much to the new expansion, it's gonna be a great shakeup.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:54PM (#16386989)
Gamers who bend over for the sake of their hobby are a pathetic bunch. Linux has many, many great games, and if that's not enough supplement it with a PS4 or something and you'll never be bored.

Most professionals would have no problem using Linux for their needs. What applications are you suggesting aren't up to snuff?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by unethical_ban on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:01PM (#16387058)
Because the XBOX and PS and Switch are totally safe, open source products that respect personal information.

Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by wizbright on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:08PM (#16387134)
Even if a game performs better on PC, whose to say it isn't optimized? Some of Vavle's own games have performed better via the Linux build compared to Windows or Mac. It's also super sketchy to not be able to see what's fully happening in one's system.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by monochromatic on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:24PM (#16387281)
How do you feel about the closed BIOS and Management Engine that underlie everything?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:10PM (#16387657)
Frustrated, and I rally against it too. My laptops run coreboot. But the difference between your closed BIOS and your closed OS is that most people actually can choose their OS, whereas fixing the BIOS problem is a much more difficult obstacle.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by mykull on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387811)
in my case, it makes me feel double-plus un-good. which is why I go to the trouble of killing the ME on any system I can, despite the at-best trivial impact of doing so.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:05PM (#16387099)
>Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows.

You can make an argument about the size of the respective platform's game libraries, but not about their performance. Games on Linux often perform as well as or better than Windows. There's no clear trend that suggests the performance of games on Linux are worse than on Windows.

And even if it were, what good is 70 FPS over 60 FPS beyond pissing contests? You're limited by your display's refresh rate anyway.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by greenknight on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:14PM (#16389805)
Actually, competitive esports players consistently play at a higher refresh rate than what is displayed (CS:GO in particular).... the main reason is that the computer is computes the inputs at the framerate, regardless of whats shown on screen.

This leads to a more responsive and fluid response to your input commands... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWSRTYV8e0

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Alupis on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:20PM (#16387235)
More and more games are coming to Linux, for sure (I'm a huge fan of games on Linux!), but Linux still is missing the latest-and-greatest AAA titles... think the Call of Duty's, Battlefield's, Skyrim's, Fallout's, Wolfenstein's... and many many more.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by nottorp on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:49PM (#16387495)
I find that as I grow older I'm less and less interested in the design-by-commitee AAA crap. The really interesting stuff is mostly in the small fry scene, and those tend to be cross platform.

I do have a Windows install specifically for gaming, but I haven't booted it in ages.

Edit: my main entertainment IS games.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by taurath on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:30PM (#16387814)
My experience is most of the indy games coming out I’m interested in are windows only. Also really good games this generation like Divinity 2 have no Linux support
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by nottorp on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:53PM (#16388061)
Well it depends what you like. I never tried any of the Divinitys because I'm under the impression that the storyline is unimaginative and just game mechanics mostly don't cut it for me (let's not mention how much time i spend in Minecraft though).

My 2nd place entertainment activity is reading, and there are few games that can approach a good book in storytelling.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:05PM (#16388181)
I don't normally click on timestamps to add to a deep thread, but if you like good storytelling, check out Pillars of Eternity. If you're a pen-and-paper nerd, then it might be right up your alley and the storytelling is really well done.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by nottorp on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:44AM (#16391128)
I was on the kickstarter (same for II) and finished it a while ago, thank you :)
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by disgruntledphd2 on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:52AM (#16393158)
In that case, thank you for backing! I am currently replaying 1 on POTD, and enjoying every minute (I discovered it too late for the second Kickstarter, unfortunately).
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Fnoord on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:06PM (#16389166)
> Wolfenstein's

The latest ones you meant?

Cause Wolf3D, Return To Castle Wolfenstein, and Return To Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory had native clients in early '00s when I played them. RTCW: ET was even completely free (as in beer). I played it for countless of hours!!

Back in those days we had a few people porting games over such as Ryan Gordon from Icculus or Timothee Besset (TTimo) from ID who ported, perhaps sometimes even as an after thought because the original floppies or CD (!!) didn't contain the Linux client.

We've come a long way. These days, you can just have one application to install a shitload of games (Steam, Humble Bundle) and you can find games for whatever platform you run, pay, install, and run it. With far, far more titles. Add to that: WebGL games are going to work on *NIX out of the box. Like Airmash, for example.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by striking on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:31PM (#16387336)
Wine recently got a DX11 layer, so we're a lot closer to that than before.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Bl4ckb0ne on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:34PM (#16387365)
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:13PM (#16387180)
Many people use monitors with 144hz refresh rates. And increased FPS means you can turn graphics up, or enable more sophisticated anti-aliasing solutions, without impacting absolute performance.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by wizbright on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:23PM (#16387265)
That's true, but also some companies cough Nvidia cough have drivers that aren't up to snuff with an OPEN SOURCE system. It's crazy that the software is FREE to access and really there would be no need to pay any real fees to develop better drivers for systems. AMD is one of the big players that has actually been working with the community to help support their cards.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by jwagenet on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:30PM (#16387327)
This is not true: If you increase your target FPS to meet a monitor refresh rate, you must turn down your AA or other graphics settings to compensate when using the same hardware. Going from a 60 Hz to 144 Hz monitor more than doubles the FPS required for Vsync, which requires double the hardware performance to take advantage of the high refresh rate.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:27PM (#16387795)
If you have 160FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can turn things up. If you have 145FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can't.

That's the only point I was trying to make there.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:19PM (#16387221)
My point is that the difference isn't going to be enough to be meaningful. If your GPU can drive 144 FPS on your Windows install it can probably drive 144 FPS on your Linux install with the same graphics settings.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387806)
I'm just noting why it's not "just a pissing contest". You're right that performance will be similar for games which were built with cross-OS compatibility in mind. But the differences in performance do matter.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Kagerjay on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:29PM (#16387320)
There's a huge range of applications that are only macOS or windows only that are a miles better in everyway.

For instance, apple's sketch. You won't find anything like it even on Windows.

For instance, windows PC. You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros, powerful 3rd party file explorers like directoryOpus, etc. You can't play video games on it, naturally gamedevelopment is a hassle as well. You can't run CAD programs, etc

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:43PM (#16387959)
> You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros

Note that you can do that with X11 too using tools like xbindkeys, xdotool, xnee, xrebind, wmctrl, etc.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:49PM (#16388012)
Well, sure, and DirectX applications could all be written as OpenGL applications instead. But who's going to do that work?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by pjc50 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:05PM (#16387096)
PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows?

Inevitably people end up with a requirement for some Windows program that trips up users or administrators in the workplace. Some workplaces (e.g. mine) are fully paid-up committed Microsoft shops where everyone has MSDN.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:11PM (#16387158)
>PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows?

Baby steps. I don't own a PS4 anyway, but I'm so tired of discussing Windows with people who whine about losing their games that I feel the need to specify an out.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:30PM (#16387813)
"Just use Linux."

"Well, maybe I would, but this program I use frequently is not available on Linux."

"So? You shouldn't want to use that anyway."

With a sales pitch like this I can't believe the Year of the Linux Desktop hasn't come to fruition yet.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gambiting on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:25PM (#16387286)
And I feel a need to point out that you behave like a jerk in this thread and well below the standard HN is known for. If you have a problem with Windows, that's fine, calling people pathetic is not.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by mmagin on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:02PM (#16387078)
Please recommend a Linux CAD program that's as easy to use and featureful as Fusion 360.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Mononokay on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:40PM (#16387415)
Okay, Mr. Stallman.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by CamperBob2 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:49PM (#16388485)
"Okay, Mr. Stallman, you've successfully forecast everything that's happened in computing over the last few years, and done so literally decades in advance, so thanks for that I guess, but please take off the tinfoil and go away now."
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:03PM (#16387079)
I'd switch to Linux in the blink of an eye if I didn't have to worry about my games working. WINE is great and all, but it's still not 100% compatible.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by AdmiralAsshat on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:43PM (#16387435)
Games are that incredibly painful holdout. I'm in a similar boat. I have an HTPC in my living room that runs Kodi, along with custom launchers for Steam and RetroArch so that I can control everything with a bluetooth controller.

The amazing thing is that I could already switch it over to Linux via KodiBuntu or some other distro and get 90% of my day-to-day functionality. But then there's the Windows-only library of games that I have on Steam--games that I've paid hundreds of dollars for over the years, that I simply don't have the energy to try fiddling for hours with in WINE. And that damn remaining 10% is what keeps that PC on Windows 10.

As much as I despise W10, Microsoft has the gamer market by the balls, and they know it. I try as much as I can to buy the Remastered Classics of games like Baldur's Gate 2 or Planescape: Torment that include proper Linux ports, just to chip away at that dependency, but there are plenty of games that in all likelihood will never have first-class Linux support.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:07PM (#16387133)
Do you also own a PS3, PS4, Xbox One, Xbox 360, Wii, and a Nintendo Switch? Do you miss the exclusives on them? You'll survive without the handful of games you have to leave behind.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by shawndellysse on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:43PM (#16387441)
User: "I don't use product $X because it doesn't support $Y"

Dev: I'm gonna be a dick and make false equivalences because I personally am not affected by product $X not supporting $Y

User: ...

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:12PM (#16387670)
FWIW there are some games on those systems i'd love to play (Last of Us being an example), but at least i know that they'll eventually be emulated so even if it takes 10, 15 or whatever years i'll play them at some point.

But the two major differences between what you are talking about and what others are talking about are that a) we have the hardware, it is totally a software issue and b) we are mainly talking for software we already have paid for, not software we may or may not buy in the future.

But hopefully as Linux becomes more popular with gaming (and Microsoft is distracted with UWP and the like), Wine will also see improvements that make gaming better. Already since Valve shown up and rattled things, Wine's gaming compatibility seems to have improved a lot compared to previous years.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:16PM (#16387701)
>we are mainly talking for software we already have paid for, not software we may or may not buy in the future.

A solution for this is to set up dual boot or whatever and use it only for the Windows-only games, until you get bored of them. Then kill Windows and you're free.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by craftyguy on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387812)
This is the exact path I took ~15 years ago. Once I realized I didn't care much for the 'exclusively windows' games, I killed my windows partition and haven't looked back since. The exciting twist to this story is that many of those games are now playable on Linux because of Wine!
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:03PM (#16388165)
Yes, this is what i'm usually doing, although i tend to use Windows even for games that are available on Linux since they tend to perform and/or look better. I mainly use Linux for gaming when i'm already doing something on Linux and i don't feel like rebooting.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:59PM (#16388121)
The only exclusive that I've remotely cared about is Last of Us, and I'm not about to buy a console for 1 single game.

And the number of games I'd leave behind in Linux is way more than a simple handful.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by dvtv75 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @07:49PM (#16389094)
I know this isn't exactly what you were saying, but I recently bought myself the (ancient) Star Wars Empire at War games, and they run better under WINE than they did under Windows 10. There's some problem that makes it drop frames and become unplayable in Windows.

Moreso on topic, I actually do much of my gaming in Linux, I only have a couple of AAA titles that I use Windows for (Elite: Dangerous and AC:Origins), everything else is Linux (KSP, X-Com, X-Com 2, RimWorld).

I often try and make a point of emailing a "Thanks for supporting Linux!" to the companies who release the ones I want to play, just so they know we are out there.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by banderman on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:51PM (#16388030)
I switched to only playing and buying games that work on Linux a few years ago and haven't regretted a moment of it. Indie games might not be as shiny and realistic looking but they're typically more creative and deep.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Bl4ckb0ne on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:04PM (#16387090)
How about contributing to make things better
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by da_chicken on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:09PM (#16387144)
Not every user is capable of being a developer for every application they want to use.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:12PM (#16387168)
Then donate however many thousands of dollars you were going to spend on Autodesk/etc licenses to Blender, Krita, Gimp, etc. Blender and Krita are competitive with their commercial counterparts and Gimp is getting there.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:24PM (#16387763)
Note that the biggest issue with such programs isn't so much the features as the file formats these programs use that came to become de facto standards in their industries.

I was just yesterday talking with a friend of mine who worked in architecture visualization and told me that basically the main reason he cannot use blender, even though he'd really like to learn it (and it would save him money on licensing), and he uses 3ds max instead is that 3ds max can read (he didn't care about writing) all the file formats from more specialized software (not max files) that his clients send to him and that is basically the reason every firm that does the same thing cannot use blender.

When i suggested that maybe some of those firms could pay developers to implement and/or improve support for those formats, he said that none would do such a thing as the bigger firms who can pay developers do not really care and can afford to use 3ds max while those who would benefit more by switching to blender (smaller firms and freelancers) cannot pay the developers.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Alupis on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:32PM (#16387349)
I'm a very strong advocate of Open Source Software, and all things Linux as well.

I've used Gimp, Inkscape, and others... but sometimes you just need to get work done, and the closed source proprietary application is what you need, I'm sorry to say.

Donating thousands of dollars to Gimp today isn't going to put it on par with Photoshop today... I wish it would. Maybe it could be in a few years... but I need to get work done right now.

Sometimes you do need a commercial interest behind something to drive it's progress. That doesn't mean it has to be closed and proprietary, but they often are, sadly.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:37PM (#16387394)
Time moves inexorably forward. Donate today and "a few years" will come.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:51PM (#16388034)
Gimp has been in development since 1995.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Bl4ckb0ne on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:13PM (#16387175)
Giving a feedback or testing an app with a newer version is easy
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by da_chicken on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:54PM (#16388070)
Yes, but not every user who needs a program can even do that.

The truth is that people are shit at using a computer (https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/). At some point we need to draw the obvious conclusion from that: users capable of useful contribution to a project are a significant minority compared to the number of users who need or wish to use that software. How many people develop software? About 5%. How many people need to use software? 95% or more? Point being, no matter how important or unimportant your software is, you are guaranteed to have a user base predominantly incapable of contributing to the project.

This is why the constant responses of, "Patches welcome," or similar in response to user complaints is so hostile to users. It's saying to users, "This application is only for experts," which is likely to only appeal to experts. Since experts are so rare, that doesn't seem like a particularly inspiring response. You're just driving users away from your project.

Yes, anybody can contribute to an open source project. No, not everybody is capable of doing so meaningfully. Yes, anybody can recognize a bad design or bug. No, not everybody is capable of recognizing a good or correct design or fixing a bug. If Linux is to ever become an operating system for the desktop, we must accept that the majority of users are not going to be developers, and a user cannot be expected to become a developer just because they want to use a computer. It is no longer 1975.

The only exception to the above is if your project has a user base entirely devoted to programmers. That's precisely why those projects get so much development time.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Feniks on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:52PM (#16387517)
Or you can just say "FUCK it" get Enterprise LTSB, spend a few hours tweaking it and never have to worry about anything for 5 years.

Yes you're breaking the law but when did that stop anyone?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:21PM (#16387744)
Thanks for the advice. I will just ask everyone who wrote the software I use to port it.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by stagger87 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:52PM (#16387523)
I'll switch when all my customers switch.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by HenryBemis on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:49PM (#16386941)
Sorry Sir_Cmpwn, but that's happening with W10. Windows 8.1 with the 'Windows Firewall Control", classicshell, a strong HOSTS file (someonewhocares.org), and a Firefox with NoScript/ublock/adblock+/etc and you got your privacy control in order.

I do agree with the Linux argument you are making, but you cannot swerve 50% of the global Windows users into Linux. It still doesn't have the best UI reputation (although it gets the job done).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:52PM (#16386975)
You can't simultaneously talk about 50% of global Windows users and their struggles with UI and assume they have the foggiest idea how to set up a strong HOSTS file and a carefully secured Firefox installation. How about they just don't use a hostile OS? If you're defending yourself from your own operating system, you've chosen the wrong damn operating system.

Also, I don't want to hear the UI argument when KDE Plasma exists. I bet 90% or better of Windows users would be comfortable on Plasma.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by blibble on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:42PM (#16388785)
> If you're defending yourself from your own operating system, you've chosen the wrong damn operating system.

this is exactly 100% dead on the money

prior to Windows 10 Microsoft was at worst known for producing unreliable mediocre quality software, but they were trustworthy (at least for the end user)

Windows 10 changed everything, at the point you're fighting the company that made the OS to not spy on you, not show you ads, not reboot against your will and not reinstall random crapware you previously removed: it's time to switch

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by zolthrowaway on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:34PM (#16387371)
I understand you're talking about the reputation, but Linux UI has gotten really good over the years. Recent Gnome, Mate, and Cinnamon builds can be truly beautiful and the Ubuntu based OSes are legitimately beautiful out of the box. I've haven't used Ubuntu since 12.x, but even then it was a legitimately good looking OS, certainly better than Windows. Mint looks and functions intuitively for any Windows user. Anyone who says Linux UI is bad has either not used Linux recently or picked an obscure distro. I've used Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, CentOS, and Arch within the past 5 years and they've all been solid. I would take any of those out of the box over an out of the box Windows 8 or 10. Windows is basically non-functional to me without classicshell.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by TPPOW0020 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:18PM (#16387216)
As a professional who gets work done with Linux, I disagree. Lots of desktop environments (KDE, XFCE, Cinnamon) offer a UI is just as polished as mac or windows.

Lack of suitable software can be a dealbreaker for some professions. There aren't many professional video editing suites, for example. But in companies I've worked at, most workers only need a browser and an office suite to do their jobs. Linux would work for them.

I think the real obstacle is training. You have a workforce that's already used to the way windows works. It's easier to hire IT people with windows experience than it is with Linux. Users know how to do their tasks in Microsoft office, and even though Libre office is similar, they might have to learn a few new things.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Bl4ckb0ne on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:58PM (#16387026)
Plasma is basically windows 10 UI, and Cinnamon is windows 7 UI.