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Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:45PM (#16386904)
It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows.

Sure, there are some open source alternatives, but they are only rarely as good, and even more seldom better, than their Windows counterparts.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by bsilvereagle on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:02PM (#16387074)
> especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows.

I have gotten around this with a virtualized Windows installation for CAD applications. The Windows VM goes online for software activation only.

With VFIO, a dedicated graphics card, and an nVME SSD I don't feel any performance degradation. The graphics card and nVME drive are passed directly to the VM. Some simple benchmarks show there is ~3% performance decline in the VM vs booting it native, but I don't "feel" it.

Granted, picking VFIO compliant hardware and setting everything up is far outside the ability of the average Windows user.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by kakarot on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:08PM (#16388206)
What card are you using, and what virtualization solution?

I'm running my Windows KVM on a GTX 1080, and it took months and months to work out all the little kinks causing system instability... now it runs quite smooth. I could never ever go back.

I've been slowly collecting blog posts and articles with the idea of writing an updated guide to making a completely stable and optimized VM with vfio, hugetables, reduced DPC latency, bridged networking, etc., written for audiences that aren't too familiar with Linux.

It would benefit adoption really well if someone unfamiliar with Linux could visit a single resource that explains everything they need to know.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by machinesmachine on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:09PM (#16387138)
I'm really surprised it works at all, great job man
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by bsilvereagle on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:21PM (#16387246)
VFIO is the real deal - if you can find the right hardware. Unfortunately, there isn't a master list of VFIO compatible hardware (that I know of). You have to scour reddit or the Red Hat VFIO mailing lists hoping someone has posted the motherboard/processor you're interested in.

Once you have hardware, there are lots of resources for pulling it off:

https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vfio.txt

https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfio-users/

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...

https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by walterbell on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:56PM (#16387558)
Lenovo, Dell or HP business (vPro) desktops will work. Dell T20/T30 is often on sale for under $500.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by giggles_giggles on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:13PM (#16387183)
What hypervisor are you using to do this?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by mykull on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:10PM (#16387658)
I do the same thing for a "virtual gaming pc" on proxmox with qemu/kvm. it was a pain to get working right with my specific hardware and with proxmox as a base, but is pretty nice now that it works. Many people use Arch linux or redhat distros to do this also, but pretty much any major distro should be capable. AFAIK it works on VMware ESXi too.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by GordonS on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:11AM (#16391262)
Wow, I just assumed virtualisation would kill performance - didn't realise it would even be an option
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by blibble on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387807)
works out of the box on debian stable with KVM these days, assuming your hardware supports it
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by makecheck on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:39PM (#16387411)
Yes “but” how do expect open alternatives to become better? Contribute to a project (with a very low bar for “contribute”, anything from “file a bug” to “fix the documentation” to “make artwork”). Yes, some big companies also push Linux forward but individuals who want good alternatives can do something to make those alternatives happen.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:00PM (#16387585)
An open source project for external customers (i.e. us) operated by a bunch of unpaid volunteers will never really be able to compete with an application with paid developers, invested users, and the supporting departments.

I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good.

For a corollary: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936629310785437696

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:09PM (#16387644)
>I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good.

Hah, this is rich. Many open source products are far better than their proprietary alternatives, especially developer oriented products (which is natural considering that developers tend to use open source and tend to improve their own tools).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:18PM (#16388279)
I'll give you (some) software development tools. Still, things like Sublime Text, Visual Studio, and the entire Jet Brains lineup which give lie to the "especially" part of the developer orientated toolset.

But...

Gimp is far better than Photoshop and Illustrator?

Blender is far better than 3DS Max and Maya?

Libre Office is far better than Microsoft Office?

Darkroom is far better than Lightroom?

Honestly, I can't even think of an open source CAD one that can even compare favorably to SketchUp, let alone AutoCad.

If you have to, there are many tools available to do a job on Linux, with a backup of VMs and Wine. They are not, however, "far better".

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by majormajor on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:59PM (#16388541)
Yeah. Making software to sell forces you to listen to the market (not the same thing as just listening to your existing customers) if you want to grow your sales.

Emacs is more powerful than IntelliJ, say, but it's vastly inferior in terms of learning curve and UX. There are some things I'd rather do in it than in IntelliJ, but it's not what I'm going to use for day to day Android dev, say. Or what I'd point newcomers at.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:11PM (#16389179)
> Emacs is more powerful than IntelliJ, say

Depends how you define "powerful;" IntelliJ understands a lot more about your code than most Emacs plug-ins.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:27PM (#16387790)
On the other hand, when it comes to categories like games, video game console emulators, office productivity applications, document publishing, etc., the open-source alternatives are generally way worse.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:38PM (#16387904)
Open source video game console emulators are certainly not worse. If anything, the best by far emulator (Dolphin) is open source, but even beyond that almost every open source VGC emulator is also open source and those emulators tend to be the most long running ones (almost always because the developers of the closed source emulators lose interest). For some systems, you have only open source emulators.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:40PM (#16387935)
There are several systems where your only option is Windows, unless the situation has changed drastically since I last looked into it. I remember Dreamcast, Saturn, DS, PSP, and PS2 being in this category, and also the options for N64/PSX not being very good, the last time I was interested. Of course, someone can respond to arguments about any program being missing with "well, I don't care about those," but you can't expect anyone to find that persuasive if they're not already converted.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:55PM (#16388078)
Dreamcast: https://github.com/reicast/reicast-emulator

Saturn: https://yabause.org/

DS: https://desmume.org/

PSP: http://www.ppsspp.org/index.html

PS2: https://pcsx2.net/

All of these are open source, support Linux, and have good compatability.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:24PM (#16388674)
The situation may have improved, but the last time I tried this Yabause was a joke and the non-Windows versions of Desmume and PCSX2 were like a year behind and clearly not the main priority for anyone.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:32PM (#16388727)
I can't say I know much about Yabause, but Desmume and PCSX2 have worked quite well for me on Linux, no problems whatsoever. PCSX2 was last updated in December on Arch Linux, and Desmume is up to date with the latest stable release for all platforms.

With respect, you should be looking these things up for yourself before you make claims like the ones you've been making in this thread.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:04PM (#16389159)
Why the hell do I have to "look up" personal experiences I had that made me dislike using Linux and OS X? It's great to hear some of my issues were out-of-date but come on. I tried using these non-Windows operating systems and eventually switched back because I didn't like the experience. An imperious series of posts telling me that I'm wrong because there has been an improvement and, anyway, shouldn't want to do what I want to do, is not exactly persuading me to feel differently.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:14PM (#16389193)
Because you're posting in a public forum and spreading misinformation about the platform with your ignorance.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:33PM (#16389270)
I see you haven't understood what I said. The specific examples I cited were real in the past. Even if those, specifically, are now solved, am I to believe this will never be an issue again? Because I think what's more likely is that non-Windows emulators will be behind by a few years in the future as well.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:36PM (#16389280)
They're not behind, I doubt they've ever been behind, and if they get behind, it's a trivial matter to prod the package maintainer for an update. These emulators support Linux as a first class platform and hell, for several of them Windows is probably a second-class platform.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:52PM (#16388046)
There are emulators on Linux in active development for all the systems you've mentioned, most even being available in Debian (and derivative) repositories.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:54PM (#16388071)
I mean, great, but I don't want something that will maybe work in a few years when there's something that works well now.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:32PM (#16387840)
>games

See pretty much every other reply in this thread for my take on this

>video game console emulators

Wrong, most emulators are open source, support Linux, and work great.

>office productivity applications

"way worse" is a bit harsh for describing LibreOffice. It works quite well in my experience.

>document publishing

I don't know what this is supposed to be. LaTeX is pretty good, though.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:41PM (#16387946)
> Wrong, most emulators are open source, support Linux, and work great.

As I said to the other guy, for a number of systems there's no emulator except the one on Windows.

> "way worse" is a bit harsh for describing LibreOffice. It works quite well in my experience.

Yeah, because your experience doesn't involve using the advanced features that have no analogue and you aren't overly concerned that the formatting will look totally different if someone opens it in MSOffice.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:47PM (#16387998)
>As I said to the other guy, for a number of systems there's no emulator except the one on Windows.

The only one that comes to mind is that one Wii U emulator. Xenia doesn't support Linux but it's open source and the lack of support more a reflection of its relative immaturity than not being possible (I'm certain a Linux port will come eventually, I was even working on it myself for a while).

>Yeah, because your experience doesn't involve using the advanced features that have no analogue and you aren't overly concerned that the formatting will look totally different if someone opens it in MSOffice.

If the formatting of a docx looks wrong in LibreOffice that's not really a big deal if you can still read the content, which is usually the case. Writing new documents should use ODF, which MSWord supports fine (often transparently, non-technical users will probably see a file with the same MSWord icon and no file extension).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Maert on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:49AM (#16392259)
> If the formatting of a docx looks wrong in LibreOffice that's not really a big deal if you can still read the content, which is usually the case.

You sound like someone who never collaborated on an Office file with someone from another company.

If a company wants to be taken seriously, and some of their work involves exchanging and collaborating on presentations, text documents or tabular files, you cannot not use MS Office.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:56AM (#16392716)
Even Mac Office used to be really bad here, although I think the newest versions are significantly closer to the real thing.

I feel like this is kind of an extreme example of something I see a lot on HN: hackers who literally cannot imagine ways of using a computer that are outside of their experience.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:55PM (#16388083)
In some contexts it is a big deal, though. I suppose the answer to that is that everyone who uses Word should learn to use Latex instead but that's not realistic.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:24PM (#16387769)
> An open source project ... will never be able to compete with ... pays developers ...

There are plenty of examples where they have done just that. Blender is probably the most obvious.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gmueckl on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:45PM (#16387982)
Blender is just the worst example that you could have picked. It is a tiny toy compared to the commercial packages in that field. It is like GIMP: just enough for those with simple needs.

KDE 3 would have been a much better example. But these days are gone, too.

What about R and Jenkins? Are there paid developers working on these?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:20PM (#16388299)
> What about R and Jenkins? Are there paid developers working on these?

I feel confidant in saying that yeah, there probably are. They're being paid to implement features and fix bugs found by their companies, who use R and Jenkins.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:52PM (#16388054)
> It is a tiny toy compared to the commercial packages in that field.

How so?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gmueckl on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:36PM (#16388412)
Oh boy, this is going to get depressing.

Blender cannot cope with the kind of stuff that is thrown at commercial DCC tools in feature production. Parts of it don't scale, others fall short of what would be required. Many features are kind of there on paper, but are not fleshed out that well.

Blender faces a sort of a chicken and egg problem: if you don't push it, you can't find out what needs fixing. But nobody in the industry is willing to try because they know that it will break too easily.

This is sort of why the Blender Foundation creates these open source movie projects: they are there to figure out what needs fixing. A ton of new features had to be created for each new short. Last time I bothered to check, many of these features were stuff that would have been considered absolutely essential in VFX workflow at the time the Blender developers managed to implement it.

The downside to these projects is that they also lead to the addition of features like compositing and editing workflows that are out of place in a DCC tool (especially the editing part). Blender started to overextend itself and ended up with too few developers to push all of these areas equally well.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:35PM (#16388397)
To be honest, it can be summed up with one sentence:

Blender is striving to meet the features and capabilities of Maya and 3ds Studio, not the other way around.

A more "business" orientated sentence:

Blender is required to to split its focus to provide a complete movie/game making package including a movie editor, shader editor (i.e. photoshop), and animation editor, an audio editor, a physics editor, a compositing editor, and a game editor; Maya and 3ds Studio do not.

Blender just can't keep up. It's a good tool, no doubt about it, but few professional users will end up using it to make money.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by thomastjeffery on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:42PM (#16388454)
I can comprehend what you are saying, but I disagree.

Over the past decade or so, Blender has been on par, and even ahead of "industry standard" tools.

It isn't required to split its focus. It is able to. That is something proprietary software from a company would fail at. It's something that free software and collaboration succeed at.

The biggest benefit is that it has all of these tools in a cohesive environment.

Instead of a photoshop/GIMP-like menu of functions, Blender is a cohesive manageable UI.

There are, in fact, a wide variety of professionals using Blender to make money. You don't hear about it, because telling you what they use is not their perogative.

What features to Maya/Max/etc. have that Blender is really behind on today? I can't think of any.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gmueckl on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:02PM (#16388559)
Blender is overextended. That's what Blender developers said openly. Parts like the compositor don't get much love at all. They were merely included because they were needed to fill huge gaping holes in the production pipeline for their demo movies. After that, interest in them dropped to near zero, but there were no better alternatives for a long time.

Now, there is at least Neutron as an open source compositing tool that seems to be filling that particular hole now much more competently than Blender ever could.

I do not understand how you can consider Blender's UI "manageable" in any way. There are much better ways to build UIs for enormously complex DCC tools. My go-to example for that has been Maya for a long time, but since a couple of years, Autodesk has bolted on features in a way that spectacularly breaks the internal consistency, logic and general discoverability of features in Maya. Even though, Blender's UI is still an unsorted mess compared to that.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:13PM (#16389188)
> It isn't required to split its focus. It is able to. That is something proprietary software from a company would fail at. It's something that free software and collaboration succeed at.

Expanding feature sets is something commercial software fails at? The biggest reason nobody professionally uses the open-source alternatives is they're missing features.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:23PM (#16387757)
It's great that people are willing to do this but it seems like kind of an absurd bar to just doing general computing.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Retra on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:08PM (#16387642)
I think if you make development of portable software much easier, then people'll have no excuse for not building software that works on multiple platforms except "we specifically choose to not target that platform."
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:14PM (#16389194)
Java's been around for a long time.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:31PM (#16387340)
>It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows.

I'm both, and you're definitely wrong. 155 of my 343 steam games have direct native ports. I've just stopped playing stellaris and started playing KSP. I've been a linux gamer for the last three years and it's been a better experience, not worse. I dominate on ballistic overkill because the input lag is noticeably lower on linux.

I'm also a software developer, and with the exception of dotnet development, software development is a considerably smoother and more consistant experience on linux. It grates every day to have to use windows at work, and I do half of my work inside a linux VM.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:24PM (#16387760)
Software developers are probably one of the few professional groups with virtually no software that ties them explicitly to Windows or MacOS. Accountants, artists, video editors, modelers, engineers, car mechanics... so many others rely on software only available on Windows.

On the gaming note - I'm glad you enjoy the games available on Linux, and that you were OK giving up some games you enjoyed. Personally, I'm working my way through WoW, with some dabbling in Space Engineers and Subnautica. None of which are available on Linux, without diving into the world of Wine.

Could I give up Windows PC gaming entirely? Sure.Could I dive into the convoluted and not-always-reliable world of Wine? Sure. Could Bob Ross have given up oil painting for acrylics? Sure. But... it doesn't sound like much fun.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by yesenadam on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:01PM (#16388146)
In the chess world, everyone—every strong player in the world, it seems—uses ChessBase, which is Windows only. They used to have a Mac version years ago but it apparently was the worst software ever. It's used for studying recent master games, storing and training on your opening theory, analysing with computer engines to find new moves in the opening, studying the games of your next opponent etc. Other programs have similar functions, but it's more powerful, and no grandmaster uses anything else. Also its data format is secret, so no other software can convert to or from ChessBase format. It was created by some Germans in collaboration with Kasparov in the 1980s, and was instrumental to his unprecedented level of opening theory knowledge.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by woolvalley on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:56PM (#16388099)
Unity is probably the big reason why many games have native linux & macos versions today.

On macos, the mac versions tend to be slower than the windows versions on the same hardware.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by TomMarius on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:44PM (#16387446)
What about AutoCAD, Inventor, Photoshop, AfterEffects, Lightroom, ...?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:13PM (#16387683)
Maya, Sketchbook, Fusion, Visual Studio, DirectX, Microsoft Office, Acrobat, ...

Here's one really simple example for you of why this Windows software matters to a very large community of professionals: most accounting work is both taught and done in Excel.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:41PM (#16387945)
Autocad/inventor->OpenScad/FreeCad

Photoshop->Gimp or just run it with wine

Lightroom->Darktable

Here's a few other pretty awesome art tools you might want to know about BTW: Krita Blender Inkscape

If we're doing "what abouts" though, what about:

freely interchangable desktop layouts

native docker support

a user-friendly terminal

an os kernel that is designed to be malware resistant

Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own. Custom launchers are one of the most downloaded android app categories, don't try to tell me people don't want it. But hey, at least windows finally got multiple desktops by cribbing the idea from linux after two decades of unsuccessfully trying to tell their customers that it wasn't really that good a feature.

If the best you can say about your operating system is "adobe supports it", which is what it seems like you're saying, then oh dear. Like, I get it, photoshop is pretty darn good. But for realsies, we're in a thread where the title post is about microsoft installing random crap on your computer without permission. This is the same company that is showing ads on your lock screen and start bar[1], has been formally chastised by national governments for it's handling of telemetry[2], autoinstalled updates that bricked peoples laptops[3] and then autoinstalled other updates that put other peoples computers in reboot loops[4]. They're gonna keep doing this stuff. For goodness sake, they incentivised peoples "upgrades" from windows 7 by installing nagware with a deliberately malicious UI[5], and attempting to directly cause professional conflict for sysadmins with stability concerns[6].

You're part of an eternal beta of questionable QA control at the hands of a company that has a documented history of behaving unethically. Do they have to send someone round to your house to kill and eat your cat in front of you before you decide you could maybe dig deep and stoop to learning gimp?

[1]https://www.pcworld.com/article/3039827/windows/7-ways-windo...

[2]http://www.zdnet.com/article/french-authorities-serve-notice...

[3]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/25/windows-10-...

[4]http://news.softpedia.com/news/windows-10-fall-creators-upda...

[5]https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest...

[6]https://www.windowschimp.com/admins-angered-new-windows-10-u...

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by TomMarius on Thursday February 15, 2018 @06:58PM (#16388858)
I wasn't asking for alternatives, that's not an option. You have to stay compatible with the rest of the company/industry. Also do you really think these CAD tools are comparable at all?

Using Wine in work is also not an option, it is too unpredictable (although it's improving at a fast pace).

I know Linux has these features and that's why I personally use it. Clearly they're not the focus of other users though.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:08PM (#16389171)
>I wasn't asking for alternatives, that's not an option. You have to stay compatible with the rest of the company/industry. Also do you really think these CAD tools are comparable at all?

If you're building a helicopter, they're not comparable at all. However, the word professional is a rather wider scope than that, and they're excellent for anyone whos business does not revolve around engineering, but has it as an auxiliary. Just as there are whole industries, like banking, that have software developers as a subset of the org chart, there are whole industries that need just a little bit of 3d CAD work.

I would not recommend professional grade adobe editing packages to an independent real estate agent that basically just needs to crop and color-correct photos, and I would not recommend autodesk inventor to a city planner that just needs to 3d print stand-in terrain. Nor would I suggest a $40,000 stratasys printer to them by the way. If you're not going to use the advanced features then the cost is high and the licensing compliance is more painful for no net benefit. GIMP and FreeCAD are exceptional front-runners for these kinds of purposes.

By the way, staying compatible with the industry is a great way to be non-exceptional. I'm not saying linux is the magical bullet of business success (because it's not), but if whatever you're doing is 100% compatible with industry software, then you're not doing anything that someone else hasn't already thought of. If you ever decide you want to move outside the bounds of what others have already done, you'll suddenly discover that open source is a competitive advantage, because it's much easier to extend it to the bleeding edge.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by dagw on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:13PM (#16389800)
Autocad/inventor->OpenScad/FreeCad

I'm sorry, but that is a complete joke. The distance between gimp and photoshop or darkroom and lightroom is tiny compared to the distance between even base autocad and the open source alternatives. And that's before we start talking about autocad variants like Civil3d and all the third party tools that are built on top of autocad.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:56PM (#16388095)
> Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own.

Actually, it is worse: you used to be able to replace the default desktop and install your own from the first versions of Windows up until recently. Now you can't and with Windows 8 Microsoft removed a ton of functionality when it comes to customization (e.g. you cannot disable DWM and you cannot use the classic theme - which was the only one with support for totally customizable color schemes).

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by ChoGGi on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:50PM (#16388489)
>> Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own.

So these shell replacements I've been using for over a decade don't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternative_shells_for...

The only time explorer.exe is running on my computer is when I need some special control panel setting.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by GordonS on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:22AM (#16391314)
Most of them seem to be discontinued - can I ask which one you use, and what benefits it has over the standard Windows 10 shell?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by hnzix on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:51PM (#16389954)
> stoop to learning gimp?

Gimp is to Photoshop as Nano is to Emacs.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by suby on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:01PM (#16387592)
Maybe I'm misreading this, but if I'm not, just posting to let you know that Stellaris definitely has a Linux port.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Substance on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:48PM (#16388003)
I know, I've been playing it tonnes. Looking forward very much to the new expansion, it's gonna be a great shakeup.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @02:54PM (#16386989)
Gamers who bend over for the sake of their hobby are a pathetic bunch. Linux has many, many great games, and if that's not enough supplement it with a PS4 or something and you'll never be bored.

Most professionals would have no problem using Linux for their needs. What applications are you suggesting aren't up to snuff?

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by unethical_ban on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:01PM (#16387058)
Because the XBOX and PS and Switch are totally safe, open source products that respect personal information.

Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by wizbright on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:08PM (#16387134)
Even if a game performs better on PC, whose to say it isn't optimized? Some of Vavle's own games have performed better via the Linux build compared to Windows or Mac. It's also super sketchy to not be able to see what's fully happening in one's system.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by monochromatic on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:24PM (#16387281)
How do you feel about the closed BIOS and Management Engine that underlie everything?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:10PM (#16387657)
Frustrated, and I rally against it too. My laptops run coreboot. But the difference between your closed BIOS and your closed OS is that most people actually can choose their OS, whereas fixing the BIOS problem is a much more difficult obstacle.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by mykull on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387811)
in my case, it makes me feel double-plus un-good. which is why I go to the trouble of killing the ME on any system I can, despite the at-best trivial impact of doing so.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:05PM (#16387099)
>Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows.

You can make an argument about the size of the respective platform's game libraries, but not about their performance. Games on Linux often perform as well as or better than Windows. There's no clear trend that suggests the performance of games on Linux are worse than on Windows.

And even if it were, what good is 70 FPS over 60 FPS beyond pissing contests? You're limited by your display's refresh rate anyway.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by greenknight on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:14PM (#16389805)
Actually, competitive esports players consistently play at a higher refresh rate than what is displayed (CS:GO in particular).... the main reason is that the computer is computes the inputs at the framerate, regardless of whats shown on screen.

This leads to a more responsive and fluid response to your input commands... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWSRTYV8e0

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Alupis on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:20PM (#16387235)
More and more games are coming to Linux, for sure (I'm a huge fan of games on Linux!), but Linux still is missing the latest-and-greatest AAA titles... think the Call of Duty's, Battlefield's, Skyrim's, Fallout's, Wolfenstein's... and many many more.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by nottorp on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:49PM (#16387495)
I find that as I grow older I'm less and less interested in the design-by-commitee AAA crap. The really interesting stuff is mostly in the small fry scene, and those tend to be cross platform.

I do have a Windows install specifically for gaming, but I haven't booted it in ages.

Edit: my main entertainment IS games.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by taurath on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:30PM (#16387814)
My experience is most of the indy games coming out I’m interested in are windows only. Also really good games this generation like Divinity 2 have no Linux support
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by nottorp on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:53PM (#16388061)
Well it depends what you like. I never tried any of the Divinitys because I'm under the impression that the storyline is unimaginative and just game mechanics mostly don't cut it for me (let's not mention how much time i spend in Minecraft though).

My 2nd place entertainment activity is reading, and there are few games that can approach a good book in storytelling.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:05PM (#16388181)
I don't normally click on timestamps to add to a deep thread, but if you like good storytelling, check out Pillars of Eternity. If you're a pen-and-paper nerd, then it might be right up your alley and the storytelling is really well done.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by nottorp on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:44AM (#16391128)
I was on the kickstarter (same for II) and finished it a while ago, thank you :)
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by disgruntledphd2 on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:52AM (#16393158)
In that case, thank you for backing! I am currently replaying 1 on POTD, and enjoying every minute (I discovered it too late for the second Kickstarter, unfortunately).
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Fnoord on Thursday February 15, 2018 @08:06PM (#16389166)
> Wolfenstein's

The latest ones you meant?

Cause Wolf3D, Return To Castle Wolfenstein, and Return To Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory had native clients in early '00s when I played them. RTCW: ET was even completely free (as in beer). I played it for countless of hours!!

Back in those days we had a few people porting games over such as Ryan Gordon from Icculus or Timothee Besset (TTimo) from ID who ported, perhaps sometimes even as an after thought because the original floppies or CD (!!) didn't contain the Linux client.

We've come a long way. These days, you can just have one application to install a shitload of games (Steam, Humble Bundle) and you can find games for whatever platform you run, pay, install, and run it. With far, far more titles. Add to that: WebGL games are going to work on *NIX out of the box. Like Airmash, for example.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by striking on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:31PM (#16387336)
Wine recently got a DX11 layer, so we're a lot closer to that than before.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Bl4ckb0ne on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:34PM (#16387365)
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:13PM (#16387180)
Many people use monitors with 144hz refresh rates. And increased FPS means you can turn graphics up, or enable more sophisticated anti-aliasing solutions, without impacting absolute performance.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by wizbright on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:23PM (#16387265)
That's true, but also some companies cough Nvidia cough have drivers that aren't up to snuff with an OPEN SOURCE system. It's crazy that the software is FREE to access and really there would be no need to pay any real fees to develop better drivers for systems. AMD is one of the big players that has actually been working with the community to help support their cards.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by jwagenet on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:30PM (#16387327)
This is not true: If you increase your target FPS to meet a monitor refresh rate, you must turn down your AA or other graphics settings to compensate when using the same hardware. Going from a 60 Hz to 144 Hz monitor more than doubles the FPS required for Vsync, which requires double the hardware performance to take advantage of the high refresh rate.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:27PM (#16387795)
If you have 160FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can turn things up. If you have 145FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can't.

That's the only point I was trying to make there.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:19PM (#16387221)
My point is that the difference isn't going to be enough to be meaningful. If your GPU can drive 144 FPS on your Windows install it can probably drive 144 FPS on your Linux install with the same graphics settings.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by falcolas on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:29PM (#16387806)
I'm just noting why it's not "just a pissing contest". You're right that performance will be similar for games which were built with cross-OS compatibility in mind. But the differences in performance do matter.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Kagerjay on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:29PM (#16387320)
There's a huge range of applications that are only macOS or windows only that are a miles better in everyway.

For instance, apple's sketch. You won't find anything like it even on Windows.

For instance, windows PC. You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros, powerful 3rd party file explorers like directoryOpus, etc. You can't play video games on it, naturally gamedevelopment is a hassle as well. You can't run CAD programs, etc

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by badsectoracula on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:43PM (#16387959)
> You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros

Note that you can do that with X11 too using tools like xbindkeys, xdotool, xnee, xrebind, wmctrl, etc.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:49PM (#16388012)
Well, sure, and DirectX applications could all be written as OpenGL applications instead. But who's going to do that work?
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by pjc50 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:05PM (#16387096)
PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows?

Inevitably people end up with a requirement for some Windows program that trips up users or administrators in the workplace. Some workplaces (e.g. mine) are fully paid-up committed Microsoft shops where everyone has MSDN.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:11PM (#16387158)
>PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows?

Baby steps. I don't own a PS4 anyway, but I'm so tired of discussing Windows with people who whine about losing their games that I feel the need to specify an out.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @04:30PM (#16387813)
"Just use Linux."

"Well, maybe I would, but this program I use frequently is not available on Linux."

"So? You shouldn't want to use that anyway."

With a sales pitch like this I can't believe the Year of the Linux Desktop hasn't come to fruition yet.

Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by gambiting on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:25PM (#16387286)
And I feel a need to point out that you behave like a jerk in this thread and well below the standard HN is known for. If you have a problem with Windows, that's fine, calling people pathetic is not.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by mmagin on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:02PM (#16387078)
Please recommend a Linux CAD program that's as easy to use and featureful as Fusion 360.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by Mononokay on Thursday February 15, 2018 @03:40PM (#16387415)
Okay, Mr. Stallman.
Re:Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking by CamperBob2 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @05:49PM (#16388485)
"Okay, Mr. Stallman, you've successfully forecast everything that's happened in computing over the last few years, and done so literally decades in advance, so thanks for that I guess, but please take off the tinfoil and go away now."