News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:01PM (#14931071)
I use to hate this guy, then I saw the Vice interview on him. It was nice to see his side of the story.

I don't know much about this case in particular. It was kinda sleazy to see the congress question him about his price increases when they knew damn well it was perfectly legal and they haven't done anything to stop it. Shkreli seems to be trying to expose this hypocrisy, but the news loves their stories.

Vice interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PCb9mnrU1g

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by swang on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:09PM (#14931139)
> Prosecutors argued that Shkreli lied to investors in two hedge funds and the pharmaceutical company Retrophin, all of which he founded. Shkreli told investors he graduated from Columbia University, that his hedge fund was large and profitable, and that he had hired an auditor, they said. These were all lies, according to prosecutors.

yeah seems like a great dude...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Barrin92 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:11PM (#14931157)
"but he had a nice twitch stream" is just about the most absurd defense of someone involved in large scale corporate fraud I have witnessed in a long time
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by hitekker on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:35PM (#14933249)
When the defense gets absurd, I go looking for the defender's agenda.

In this case, the original commenter wants to tar all centralized institutions as corrupt (congress, news, etc). His strategy is to paint Shrekli in the best possible light, to make him a martyr for the cause.

He even paints Shrekli as another Snowden:

> It exposes it. Not quite as monumental, but a Snowden moment. Remember, congress did squat about the price gouging, because that's what they get paid to do.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by FireBeyond on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:11PM (#14933424)
Right. Ted Bundy was the picture of charisma, and charm, personality.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:18PM (#14931219)
Interestingly, his fraud seems to fall into two categories. Lying about his fund's bonafides and status on one side, and working hard to make sure those same investors got what they were expecting by founding a company, making it successful and paying them out from the profits.

It sounds like he definitely lied to investors, but he apparently didn't intend to steal their money, and took pains to make sure he did not cost them money in the end. Apparently most investors in the fund that lost all it's money ended up close to tripling their investment after he worked to replace the lost money in the end.

That leaves me thinking that "up to 20 years" is a bit harsh given the facts. Hopefully the judge will take that into consideration and give him a more lenient sentence.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by CalChris on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:32PM (#14931348)
fraud != stealing

fraud wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain

stealing take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it

No, Shkreli didn't intend to steal their money since they gave it to him. However, he did in fact deceive them as to what he did with said money. So he was convicted of fraud.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:45PM (#14931506)
Yes, I wasn't calling for no sentence, or not guilty, just that the details do provide mitigating circumstances IMO, and that might merit a lenient sentence.

Also of note, in the NY Times article[1], they call out how his defense tried to mount a defense based on the financial profit or personal gain portion of the definition.

The defense asked why Mr. Shkreli, if he wanted to commit fraud, didn’t commit fraud: He ultimately paid back his investors with shares of Retrophin, which became valuable, along with cash. His lawyers also asked how Mr. Shkreli profited, painting him as a hardworking oddball who, rather than throwing in the towel after his funds imploded, vowed to get his investors’ money back. He paid them back late, they argued, but he paid them back.

Apparently, that wasn't successful.

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/business/dealbook/martin-...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by nprog on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:40PM (#14932963)
Wire fraud (1343) is both inchoate and a specific intent crime. To be convicted, it doesn't matter if there was an actual loss, but must be shown that the defendant intended to defraud, that is that "[T]he purpose of the scheme 'must be to injure'" (US v Regent). This is also the 2nd Circuit, which has the most substantive case law on wire fraud in the US (Regent, Starr, McNally, D'Amato, Skilling, etc). I should add that Shkreli was not convicted on his wire fraud counts, which are among the most blunt overused weapons a prosecutor has. Almost no one survives a wire fraud charge, yet Shkreli was. He was convicted of securities fraud and conspiracy (for the same), which are also specific intent, however, 'recklessness' specifically is insufficient in a wirefraud case (helpful but insufficient), whereas in securities fraud, scienter is often shown prima facie by reckless indifference for the truth. I believe most salespersons would fail this test in this context. And, virtually every startup I've ever reviewed has unwittingly committed securities fraud, and in the hands of a prosecutor, it's usually only a question of whether they are motivated to target you (for some crime, if only they can "find it") for general behavior they disapprove of, and less so motivated to target a clear crime.

https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-949-pr...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by CalChris on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:20PM (#14933464)
You might say that Shkreli was charged with willfully pissing someone off, but he was also tried and convicted in a jury trial in Federal court and then unlike some sad sack foot soldier in the drug wars that prosecutors use to juice their numbers, Shkreli had and has the means for a first class defense, a defense whose singular and most brilliant tactic was telling Shkreli to STFU already.

Yes, Shkreli is probably at best guilty of being guilty. But please don't mind me at all if I enjoy this feel good item just a little more than the usual story about someone being guilty of being poor.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by emerongi on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:59PM (#14932199)
A lot of people who do bad things don't intend to do bad things. He got lucky he didn't fuck up like everyone else who thinks that way. It doesn't make him any better though, on a bad day he could've ended like the rest of them and then everyone would be screaming how awful Shkreli is.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by throwawayjava on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:03PM (#14933636)
Just to be clear, this is LITERALLY equating business success with ethical/legal conduct.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:42PM (#14933796)
> Just to be clear, this is LITERALLY equating business success with ethical/legal conduct.

No, it's equating restitution and intent with lenient sentencing.

Even if I grant that he intended to defraud people initially (which doesn't appear to be the case), that's still analogous to if someone stole your car, but later had a change of conscience, returned it, and had also fixed your dents and given it a new paint job to make amends. Are they guilty of theft? Yes. Should they be punished? Probably. Should they get the same punishment as someone who stole your car and crashed it, or stole it and sold it? I don't think so. That's leniency. You may have a different opinion.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Sangermaine on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:19PM (#14931228)
Are you kidding? He's human garbage, let him rot. It's astounding how people are being taken in by this con man.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by enschlnd on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:26PM (#14931300)
He's not kidding. He's not human garbage. It's not astounding that different people have different opinions at all. Your post suggests that you're very emotionally attached to your opinion, which is not good. Nor takes into consideration some basic premises which are necessary for people to understand one another.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Sangermaine on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:35PM (#14931378)
>He's not human garbage.

Yeah, but he is.

Spare me the faux "logically objective" pose. There is a reason he's known as the "most hated man in America". His actions have earned him this reputation.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by to_bpr on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:08PM (#14932277)
>There is a reason he's known as the "most hated man in America".

Because that title sells clicks, much like every other piece of hyperbolic clickbait spewed onto the internet these days?

If he truly is the most hated man in America, by fact, then it's simply further proof that Americans, as a collective entity, are willingly at the highest extremes of ignorance.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by enschlnd on Monday August 07, 2017 @05:16PM (#14951336)
hey, spare me the faux "logically objective" pose, little guy. I'm the only one that can be taken seriously here.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by pyroinferno on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:04PM (#14931722)
>"Spare me the logic" Yup, this is hackernews alright.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by mwfunk on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:59PM (#14932202)
You made it look like "Spare me the logic" was a direct quote but it wasn't, and it clearly is not a summary of what was meant. Always argue against what people say and (even more importantly) what they mean, not against your own not-quite-accurate-but-easier-to-refute version of what people say.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:22PM (#14931249)
Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think he's human garbage? You felt strongly enough to reply, maybe you can muster the effort to explain why you think that?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by quantgenius on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:58PM (#14931661)
The price increase for Retrophin from 12.50 to 750 was NOT for no apparent reason. The previous owners of the rights sold the rights cheaply because they were unable to make money selling Retrophin, and in fact had large losses for years, despite multiple large price hikes. Businesses that continually lose money shut down. Most of the costs are large fixed regulatory costs for each drug manufactured that a business owner cannot cut, so the only realistic alternative is to raise the price dramatically.

A USD 750 list price for a drug does NOT result in most people paying the list price. Most people get it via insurance, insurance companies pay a negotiated rate and you pay the copay (frequently higher than what the insurance company actually pays). Retrophin isn't a widely used drug so the effect on overall premiums was also tiny. His company literally offered the drug for free to anyone who for whom insurance didn't pay for it and who couldn't afford it. He also had a publicly stated business plan whereby he would use profits from Retrophin to invest in research into similar drugs which pharmaceutical companies have not been doing since Retrophin had been losing money.

Given the byzantine manner in which payments are actually made in the US, there simply isn't any other way to price an orphan drug, i.e. a drug that very few people actually need. The only way to make a business that produces life-and-death drugs needed by very few people sustainable is to price the drug very high due to very high fixed regulatory costs per drug manufactured. If you want to change this, it needs legislation and FDA reform. Demonizing businesses that raise prices to ensure they make a reasonable profit, will only result in drugs that are life-and-death for a small number of people either getting taken off the market or not coming to the market in the first place.

What's FAR more concerning is things like the recent increases in pricing for things like the Epi-Pen. Prices were raised 10x but also the expiration date on Epi-Pens is artificially short, so hospitals, schools etc are forced to throw away perfectly usable Epi-Pens for no good reason. Nobody talks about that because that price hike was by order of a senator's daughter. Shrekili just happens to be a bit of a PR nincompoop.

What we really need is a populace that thinks carefully and independently and a press that actually spends money on investigative reporting instead of relying on what politicians tell them to report, which helps their bottom line since it's much cheaper.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by quantgenius on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:12PM (#14933690)
I meant Dataprim not Retrophin. Sleep deprived.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:25PM (#14931293)
> Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think he's human garbage.

Obtaining a license just to increase a drug's price from $13.50 to $750 for no apparent reason other than greed isn't enough for you?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:28PM (#14931317)
> Obtaining a license just to increase a drug's price from $13.50 to $750 for no apparent reason other than greed isn't enough for you?

This case isn't about that. Are you suggesting we should convict and punish people on trial for one crime because we don't like their past activities and behaviors? Even if those other behaviors were illegal, they should be considered during a separate trial that's actually pertaining to them.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:34PM (#14931373)
> This case isn't about that.

That wasn't your question, was it? You asked why he's human garbage, I explained why. I wasn't defending or attacking this case, I was explaining why some think he is human garbage.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931439)
Edit: Whoops, different person. See bottom.

> Nowhere was I (or you) saying anything about this case.

Your specific words in your original response were "He's human garbage, let him rot." That response was to me saying I think the details of the case lead me to believe that I think he should a light sentence.

You very specifically noted through that euphemism that you think he shouldn't get a light sentence in this case because he's human garbage.

Edit: Sorry. That was someone else. I was specifically asking in context, but that wasn't you originally. Mea Culpa. Leaving it here with this note so people that saw it previously can see me retraction.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:50PM (#14931560)
For what it's worth, I've colored the usernames on my HN discussions so I don't make mistakes like this. Maybe HN should do that natively.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by throwawayjava on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:07PM (#14933664)
> This case isn't about that

No. It was about fraud.

Why should we NOT punish people for fraud?

The ways that question are answered in this thread prove your assertion is false. This case IS about that, because without that, he'd just be one more pennyless felon.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:38PM (#14933778)
> Why should we NOT punish people for fraud?

Who said he shouldn't be punished? I simply stated that since he made restitution prior to charges being brought, perhaps that should factor into sentencing. I don't know who you're arguing against, or what you're really arguing, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I've been talking about.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by throwawayjava on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @07:01PM (#14963796)
> I simply stated that since he made restitution prior to charges being brought, perhaps that should factor into sentencing.

Restitution isn't the only reason for punishment.

> I don't know who you're arguing against, or what you're really arguing

That he's clearly unapologetic and simply got lucky, and that this should factor into sentencing.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by amyjess on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:00PM (#14931671)
Al Capone wouldn't have been prosecuted for tax evasion if he wasn't an infamous mobster.

This is how society's immune system functions.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:16PM (#14931849)
Al Capone wouldn't have had to evade taxes if he wasn't obtaining his income through illegal means.

I also see a distinction between Capone and Shkreli in that Capone's other actions which may have influenced his trial were myriad illegal activities that they couldn't get evidence for. Shkreli is just believed to be an asshole.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by croon on Saturday August 05, 2017 @07:46AM (#14935289)
Is the illegality of the other activities really relevant if they can't be prosecuted?

The justice system is meant to punish specific crimes, which it did done in both cases, but that doesn't prohibit you as a human to see it as karmic justice, for someone being a garbage human, wether legally or illegally.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Saturday August 05, 2017 @01:30PM (#14936789)
> Is the illegality of the other activities really relevant if they can't be prosecuted?

Normally, no (which I said explicitly in another comment here). In this case, the activities are linked. There's no need to evade taxes if your income isn't illegal.

Even so, I don't subscribe to the argument that it's entirely a good thing that we prosecuted Capone for tax evasion. We were unable to prove the actual criminal activities, so we instead looked at the fruits of those activities and used that.

Another way to look at it is that the justice system completely failed initially. We couldn't build a case for the major crimes, but we could for the lesser crimes. He was still guilty of both (this is of course assuming his guilt).

In Shkreli's case, we failed to prosecute originally because it's not a crime. The current case isn't related in the same way, and linking them and punishing in the latter because of people's perception of the former is akin to levying a harsher sentence on someone because of their interracial marriage in a region and time when that was legal but frowned upon. Social pressure unrelated to the issue at hand should not be relevant in court. Even if it's related to the issue at hand in the case, it should be restricted to sentencing (where it likely can't be removed anyway).

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by MichaelGG on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:33PM (#14931364)
And what's wrong with that? Be upset that the FDA only approved one company to make the drug.

And it's not like anyone was hurt. Overall, insurers ended up paying a bit more (drugs are only 10-15% of US health care costs, and very few people need Daraprim). Big deal. If more people did this, then the system would get this issue addressed, maybe.

On top of that, he said he was investing the profits into researching better drugs, though of course that's not a requirement.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by davewritescode on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:54PM (#14933613)
It came out in congressional testimony that they were completely misrepresenting how they were re-investing profits. Employees were pilfering profits with 100% raises, massive bonuses and lavish parties. Very little if anything was going back into R&D.

If you want to make a profit and drink champagne on yachts that's totally fine, just don't go around telling everyone that you're pouring those profits back into research.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Osmose on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:37PM (#14931414)
It is possible to be upset with both the system and the people using it.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by MichaelGG on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:07PM (#14931752)
True, and if it comes out that Turing knowingly blocked people from getting it despite knowing their eligibility, then he deserves derision. But so far he's just pointed out the huge issues and laughed, driving up awareness.

At some point if your system is so terribly busted and no one is fixing it, eh, maybe you lose the right to hate people abusing it. Or maybe his wit and charisma is making me blind to the issue here.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by croon on Saturday August 05, 2017 @07:58AM (#14935322)
I found a rule loophole that allowed me to wear an Iron Man suit while playing in the NFL, so I made a career making millions of dollars a year. Aint I brave and admirable for pointing out the issue?

I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the culture of praising exploiters of the system instead of promoting constructive players (who are less profitable, ie less sexy). I understand that the contrarian view to "The Man" is the easiest one to take, even if I think the identified "Man" is the diametrical opposite.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by manquer on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:54AM (#14939749)
The actual equivalent is that The loophole should only allow you and no one else.. so if rule is set like that who is to blame ?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by KekDemaga on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:35PM (#14931387)
Can I presume you offer your skills to anyone who asks at a wage that reflects a minimum cost of living (ie no iPhone or other luxuries the bare minimum cost of living). If not what is your reasoning beyond apparent greed?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:57PM (#14931644)
I don't understand your comment.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by KekDemaga on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:34PM (#14932011)
Take a look at wealth globally, if GDP was evenly distributed every year everyone would get roughly ten thousand dollars. That's pretax, thus the total average spend per human being be in direct cash payments or via governmental programs should not exceed that number in a fair system. In western nations the poor see double that number on average in cash compensation, and more than triple that number when you include government services.

My point is fairness and accusations of greed cut both ways, if fairness was truly the concern of the poster he would also cut his standard of living in order to benefit those much worse off than him. As he more than likely does not his argument is not "let's increase fairness" but rather "people in my class and I deserve more" and that's the same argument the people raising the drug prices are making.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:42PM (#14932978)
It seems like you are completely missing the point. This has little to do with economic inequality. The issue is not that this guy had a random product and raised its price. If this had been a car or an iPhone, we could not have cared less if he had been "greedy" and selling it for $1M/piece. The issue is that this is medicine we're talking about. People don't view healthcare and medicine like they view ordinary services and products. Many people (perhaps not you) have a much higher threshold for what kind of practice is moral/ethical/acceptable in medicine. That's why even in the middle of a battlefield people think it is inhumane to prevent doctors from treating injured soldiers, the war be damned. There is more to humanity than money.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bradjohnson on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:55PM (#14933352)
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:13PM (#14933428)
Retrophin was a company and not a drug, right? The comment is saying things like "Retrophin isn't a widely used drug" which is really confusing me and makes me think either I or the writer (or both) don't have any idea what he's talking about. I'm trying to make sense of it compared to what I'm reading from other sources and am completely failing because of this.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bradjohnson on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:14PM (#14933701)
The drug was called Daraprim. I think the linked comment misspoke when calling it Retrophin, but I have heard many of the same things that they are saying. Namely that anyone that cannot get the drug through insurance can get it for free. I don't think that Martin Shkreli is a good guy by any means, but portraying him as "human garbage" is not entirely fair.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by jamra on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:53PM (#14931587)
I believe he reinvests 80% back into R&D. That's a pretty large sum. It's a lot more than the big companies. If a better drug for toxoplasmosis is developed that doesn't kill people, it would have been a great achievement.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by mindfulplay on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:31PM (#14931344)
Regardless of big an asshole he is based on seeing the Vice interview and thinking about the big fraud pharma industry makes me think he is actually way better than the conniving people who run big pharma.

This guy speaks out and maybe he is an asshole and suddenly everyone hates him. The rest keep their profits to themselves and we don't seem to care or mind.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by beginpanic on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:13PM (#14931805)
Everyone has choices to make. Martin could have easily not been an asshole to cancer patients or investors at his fund. You want to let him off the hook just because he said "yup I'm a dick" while he was making the choice to be a dick and profited massively from being a dick?

Acknowledging the fact that what you're doing is wrong does not suddenly make that thing right. It's still wrong. And you're still an asshole for doing it.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Sangermaine on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931442)
Of course we care. People are criticizing the pharma industry's practices and calling for change all the time. Shkreli is a particularly obnoxious symptom, but he's not the disease.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by charlesdm on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:26PM (#14931302)
Plenty of people who one would classify as "human garbage" make hundreds of millions. Frankly, it does not matter.

What matters is: 1) did people lose money, due to some scam? and 2) did he do anything illegal.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by singtings on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:03PM (#14931707)
Well he committed fraud but people did not lose money. So yes to question 2 and no to question 1.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by charlesdm on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:25PM (#14931278)
I haven't followed everything closely, but did anyone lose money in the end?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:32PM (#14931347)
The NY Times article[1] presented by an early top level comment implies that no, they didn't.

The investors who invested all made money — by the defense’s tally, more than triple what they invested.

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/business/dealbook/martin-...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by charlesdm on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:34PM (#14931372)
I don't particularly like the guy, but I do believe him to be pretty smart. How can he be convicted of fraud if he got them a 3x return?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bmelton on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:51PM (#14931569)
Because he defrauded them in order to get their 3x return.

Put simply, if I burn my house down in order to collect the insurance money, I've committed insurance fraud whether or not I pay that money back, and no amount of profit on the payback negates the illegality.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:03PM (#14931709)
Although, interestingly, he didn't steal their money, he lost it in a bad trade, which is probably (maybe?) covered under the risks associated with the fund's operation. The deception was not telling people their money was gone (and also lying somewhat about details of the fund initially). Given that the loss was an accident that he didn't profit from, and that he worked to repay the money, there's a critical difference between your example and what's reportedly happened here, which is intent.

It's more similar to you managing a property for someone, and telling them you got fire insurance when you haven't yet, and then when the house burns down accidentally you work to make the money to cover what the insurance would have covered. You did commit fraud by not getting the insurance when you said you would, but you also covered the costs in the end.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bmelton on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:19PM (#14931885)
The fraud part, which also happens to have been the illegal part, is that he misrepresented the size of the situation while soliciting investments. It might eventually have been true, but was specifically not true at the time he made the statements he made.

That said, I agree that my analogy was bad, and I wasn't trying to assert that Shkrelli deliberately set the house on fire as much as I was just looking for an appropriate analogy of something that is illegal even though it did not have any financial damages.

The point was that while damages from fraud may be financial, the fraud is the damage, and the lie is the crime.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:48PM (#14932118)
> That said, I agree that my analogy was bad, and I wasn't trying to assert that Shkrelli deliberately set the house on fire

Yeah, I was just trying to add more information to it, and point out what I thought were interesting portions of the case. Less a rebuttal and more an clarification and addition. :)

The case itself is very interesting because the situation is very interesting, and that's only compounded by his public persona, which is reviled by many because of prior media attention.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:54PM (#14931607)
He lied about the current status of the fund for quite a while as he attempted to replace the money, and sent fraudulent reports showing good returns when all the money was lost. He later replaced all the lost funds with profits from the company he founded (and reportedly worked hard to make profitable).

I'm not sure whether that company was the one responsible for the drug price hike, and whether that constituted a lot of the profits or that actually went back into research as I believe he said it did during that episode.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by gizmo on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:51PM (#14931565)
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by davewritescode on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:42PM (#14933562)
The difference is that they actually told their investors what happened instead of lying and bringing in new investors to help cover the losses.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by davidreiss on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:49PM (#14933593)
Actually, a bunch of wall street, banking, etc all said the state of the economy was fine, there was no housing bubble, etc all on national TV before the markets collapsed. None of them went to jail.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by huac on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:25PM (#14931276)
I mean, everybody came out okay - Shkreli really made his investors a lot of money! Yeah, he lied, but he did some incredible work: typical fraudsters take your money and run - he doesn't fit that mold.

Honestly, the issue was that he's an utter asshole, including to his investors. Investors are willing to put with a lot if you triple their money, but Shkreli managed to cross that line. That made him an easy target for the prescription drugs investigation and media circus.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by blahblah3 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:35PM (#14931388)
Just because his investors made money doesn't excuse him.

Suppose you lent 10,000 to a friend and the friend promised to return it within a year. A year later, your friend doesn't pay you back and makes a bunch of excuses. Instead, he takes the 5,000 he has left to the casino, gambles it on the roulette wheel and by luck manages to turn that into 30,000 and pays you back 1.5 years later. I don't think you would be happy with that situation...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by benesch on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931437)
You might find FedEx's origin story interesting.

> “I asked Fred where the funds had come from, and he responded, ‘The meeting with the General Dynamics board was a bust and I knew we needed money for Monday, so I took a plane to Las Vegas and won $27,000.’ I said, ‘You mean you took our last $5,000— how could you do that?’ He shrugged his shoulders and said, ‘What difference does it make? Without the funds for the fuel companies, we couldn’t have flown anyway.’ Fred’s luck held again. It was not much, but it came at a critical time and kept us in business for another week.” [0]

[0]: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/15/fred-smith-blackjac...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by pm90 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:52PM (#14931583)
Technically, Fred committed a fraud (actually I forget the technical term for the crime where you misuse funds). Its just that he wasn't prosecuted for it.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by jetti on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:47PM (#14932109)
Could you be thinking of Misappropriation of funds? I'm not a lawyer and I haven't spent a lot of time looking it up but from the few places I looked it doesn't seem that it would fit.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by lojack on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:50PM (#14931561)
Your analogy is slightly off... suppose you lent $10,000 to an acquaintance known for being able to double it, and they promise to return it doubled in a year. A year later you ask for your money and he gives you $6,000 from someone else he convinced to do the same thing along with $6,000 from a different venture that was taking off and $8,000 work of equity for that startup. You didn't quite get what was promised, it seems a little shady, but at least he didn't rip you off.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by soundwave106 on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:16PM (#14931845)
The problem is, in most cases, historically the type of actions Shkreli tried often ends in disaster (often done by someone intentionally being malicious, I might add).

Shkreli may have been able to work his pseudo-Ponzi-ish scheme to investors' benefit. But it is pretty easy to look up the sordid history of the vast majority of Ponzi-type schemes, to see why this type of activity is generally illegal.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by fastball on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:11PM (#14933863)
You don't think intent and net harm should be considered in criminal cases? I'd like this sentencing to send a clear message to fraudsters that:

A. If you get caught, you're going to prison

But more importantly -

B. If, however, you work hard to ensure the people you defrauded are not harmed by your fraud, your sentence will be lighter than if you were the type of fraudster to cut and run.

I don't know about you, but in light of the fact that fraudsters are always going to exist, I'd like to incentivize the "benevolent fraudsters", rather than pretending (through equal sentencing) that there is no difference between the two.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by njharman on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:45PM (#14933579)
I would be perfectly happy to get more than my 10,000 back (like his investors did) late vs getting less or none back ever.

I'd be joyous if the return was better than I could expect to make otherwise, say > 10-20%.

Investments are risky. They are not automatic.

What I wouldn't be happy about is if I was lied to about the risk of an investment. That is closer to what this case is about. The money gained or lost doesn't really matter.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931450)
Honestly, I would be thrilled to triple my money in 18 months. Using the gambling analogy is disingenuous though.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by singhrac on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:54PM (#14931602)
I don't see why it's disingenuous? Investing is extremely risky, and I'm not convinced that he didn't just get lucky on the second bet.

This isn't ok because the original investor was paid off. That's also how Ponzi schemes work - the original investors are paid off (I know, here the money seems to be generated from Retrophin, but the behavior is the same).

This gave me a perspective: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-12-17/martin-sh...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:12PM (#14931799)
Investing money with some knowledge and control of the outcome vs. gambling with house stakes are two completely different categories of risk.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by blahblah3 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:56PM (#14931634)
I think that's being too results driven and doesn't take into account the risk that was taken. As another example, suppose your uber driver drove you home while intoxicated. Even if the trip ended up being fine (no accidents, smooth ride), you would still have valid justification for complaining about this.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:14PM (#14931830)
I understand a risk was taken, but gambling has a less than 50% chance of return (by design) while buying a Pharma company that you control is conceivably less risk.

Let me add to this: Buying a company you have a government mandated monopoly on (patent) that owns a product that people will die if they don't take (inelastic demand), and has a huge barrier to entry for new, competing entrants (FDA) is conceivably less risk than throwing chips on a roulette wheel.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by savanaly on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:41PM (#14931451)
What if he lied to you, but then went out and through a combination of talent, hard work, and luck somehow made the money to make you whole and then some?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by jsmthrowaway on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:43PM (#14931479)
Then he lied to me, our business concludes, and I testify that he lied to me when asked. Pretty simple.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by pm90 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:58PM (#14931651)
The law is very clear on what is a crime and what isn't. So when he misused his funds, he committed a crime. And he was prosecuted and convicted for it. Doesn't matter if in the end he cured cancer: he still committed a crime.

I have a feeling that since most people have never dealt with the justice system, they fail to appreciate just how black and white it really is. While the movies/TV do portray cases where "extenuating circumstances" help the case, most cases are pretty straightforward.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by rifung on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:47PM (#14932107)
> I mean, everybody came out okay - Shkreli really made his investors a lot of money! Yeah, he lied, but he did some incredible work: typical fraudsters take your money and run - he doesn't fit that mold.

I think it's nice everyone came out okay, besides Shkreli in this case I guess. I still think what he did was wrong though because if you don't punish that kind of behavior, then you're encouraging people to do things that are wrong in the hopes they will succeed, and it won't always work out as it happened to do so here.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by sehugg on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:41PM (#14931458)
He started his career as a short seller that defrauded banks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli#MSMB_Capital_Ma...
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Harimwakairi on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:05PM (#14931730)
> ...he did some incredible work...

Can you elaborate on this?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by yellowstuff on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:17PM (#14931859)
He pivoted from running a hedge fund worth -33 cents to creating a pharmaceutical company currently worth $800 million.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by BinaryIdiot on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:50PM (#14931558)
> typical fraudsters take your money and run - he doesn't fit that mold.

So if everything happened identically but he failed to make them money _then_ it would be bad? I don't understand.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:19PM (#14931225)
Also, according to the NYT article, all investors tripled their money.

"The investors who invested all made money — by the defense’s tally, more than triple what they invested."

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by cowsandmilk on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:39PM (#14931432)
So, it is okay to lie to investors, as long as you eventually pull a success off? And you make those investors you were lying to money by committing fraud on the investors in your new company (Retrophin), so they make money, but not as much they would have if you weren't secretly taking profits to pay off the investors you previously defrauded?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by manquer on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:58AM (#14939977)
While I don't agree to what shkreli did, founders / promoters lie all time .
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by sigmar on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:26PM (#14931298)
It's not fraud if investors make money? Someone better tell Madoff that he's getting out.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by fnovd on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:32PM (#14931353)
The operative word here is "all."
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by sigmar on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:53PM (#14931588)
That doesn't matter. Lying during a business deal is still fraud.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:44PM (#14932086)
Ever watch a commercial?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by monksy on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:58PM (#14931656)
Sounds like the standard playbook for startups. Oh you wanted a product, you should be happy with the mvp.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:47PM (#14931529)
I never said he was a great dude, but the media's portal of him is inaccurate (shocker).
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by fastball on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:07PM (#14933859)
The epitome of "fake it 'til you make it"?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by lucaspm98 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:14PM (#14931189)
To be fair, the quote itself says "according to prosecutors" so this is only one side of the story.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by eli on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:18PM (#14931217)
Well, 12 jurors agreed.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by throwaway76543 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:23PM (#14931261)
They mostly didn't agree with the prosecution. He's been convicted on only 3 of the 8 counts.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by lucaspm98 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:22PM (#14931252)
They agreed he committed a crime not that he wasn't a "great dude." I'm not saying he is, just that this is using a claim without any evidence or response to paint a picture of his whole life.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by legohead on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:05PM (#14931105)
The YouTube video of him doing an Ebay Analysis [1] was very interesting I thought, both from a technical point of view and another look at his character.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFSf5YhYQbw

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by jmcgough on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:49PM (#14932130)
I watched a few of his early stock evaluation videos, really informative. Shkreli's a bit sociopathic, but he's wickedly smart, in his spare time he teaches himself javascript and organic chemistry.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by tnecniv on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:15PM (#14931195)
Watching Excel power users is really fascinating.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by corobo on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:47PM (#14931522)
I think I got an epiphany watching this - is this what the missus sees when I'm tapping away at a bunch of (to her) garbled text flicking between text editor tabs, webpages and CLIs
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by shostack on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:56PM (#14932173)
I spend a good chunk of my day in Excel and some might consider me a power user. He's pretty decent, and I picked up a couple tips from him (using a graphical line object instead of messing with cell borders for something you might need to move frequently for example).

There is definitely something mesmerizing though about watching someone conjure complex data onto a screen seemingly by magic and a few key strokes though. Although really it is just memorizing a ton of hot keys and a bunch of buried menu shortcuts.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kbenson on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:35PM (#14931383)
The first time I saw that video was when referenced in a HN submission about Excel use[1]. You might find it interesting.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12448545

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Unbeliever69 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:32PM (#14931350)
Oh yeah, watching his Excel You Tube video puts me in awe! Can't tell you how many people I've recommended that video to!
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by revelation on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:59PM (#14932694)
Lots of tapping, little happening really. This is what it must be like when your horizon starts and stops with Excel, you find yourself copying numbers from a SEC PDF to do the same model for the umpteenth time.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by aerovistae on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931447)
Yeah, I think he's better at excel than I've ever been at anything. Jesus.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by amsilprotag on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:29PM (#14931966)
The timing of this video is a lesson in humility. It's posted one month before a positive earnings report showing high growth in active buyers that gives the stock an ongoing 1.3x price increase. As far as I have viewed, Shkreli seems ambivalent, using vague heuristics to predict the future -- expectation of a yahoo-like slow decline, poor UX and discovery, and stiff Amazon competition.

https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:EBAY (click 5y)

https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/08/11/why-shares-of-ebay...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by eyeownyde on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:19PM (#14932844)
He's doing something similar, looking at some companies in the video game industry right now, live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvArpDQHf-Y

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by mattjack on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:20PM (#14931232)
Thank you so much for sharing this, I've been looking for something just like it.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by kylev on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:57PM (#14931642)
Are you still inclined to trust his teaching? I mean... he's a convicted financial criminal and you're linking to his finance video.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by dgfgfdagasdfgfa on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:10PM (#14931148)
> Shkreli seems to be trying to expose this hypocrisy, but the news loves their stories.

It's hard to buy into this when he was directly profiting from this attempt to expose.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by randyrand on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:05PM (#14932736)
Why not both? What he's doing, creating outrage legally, is one of the most effective ways to create positive change that actually affects the whole industry. And hes making money too! Win-win?

He committed early on to give financial aid to those that could not afford the new drug's price. His conscious is rather clean. I see it no different to what most private schools do - charge a huge sticker price then offer aid, so that everyone gets charged as much as they can afford, even if barely.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by laughinghan on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:13PM (#14933433)
> Why not both?

Because doing so would kill people?

> He committed early on to give financial aid to those that could not afford the new drug's price.

Did he actually do this or just say he would? As has been noted by others through this thread, including by folks who like him, he's prone to lying.

Also, are you really claiming that people of all incomes have equal access to expensive private schools?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by epmaybe on Friday August 04, 2017 @08:29PM (#14933515)
Also by increasing the cost for people with insurance, insurance eats the cost and raises the premiums for everyone. Someone definitely lost, and it was basically everyone on an insurance plan that needed those drugs
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by randyrand on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:03PM (#14933851)
Schooling still has a minimum price that needs to be charged to be sustainable. Teachers are not cheap, among other costs. Drugs do not. Drugs are very cheap to produce after the R&D. Financial aid (price discrimination) would work rather well for drugs (but we'd all end up paying more, generally, just like higher education).

As for whether he has implemented financial aid yet, I do not know. Bear in mind that only tens of people buy this drug a year, so implementing financial aid is almost as easy as just having an email account for requests.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by cloakandswagger on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:04PM (#14931100)
I agree. My initial perception of Shkreli was the commonly accepted one of revulsion and hatred. After watching the Vice piece, plus a lot of Shkreli's finance talks and live streams, I find him pretty charming and unbelievably intelligent.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by moxious on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:07PM (#14931126)
"Charming and unbelievably intelligent" are definitely fair descriptors for this man, just please bear in mind that these terms probably describe many other people who are also guilty of fraud. Sure he has his side. And yes he's probably been treated unfairly by the press. And no, he isn't guilty of all of the things people say. And yet none of that makes him actually innocent.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by amyjess on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:08PM (#14931762)
To add, I would argue that "charming and unbelievably intelligent" are prerequisites to being a truly great fraudster.

- Charm: a lot of people don't realize this, but the "con" in "con man" is short for "confidence". They work by abusing and exploiting people's confidence in them. A con man has to have enough charm to get people to place their confidence in him, or the scheme isn't going to work.

- Intelligence: fraud isn't something you can pull off by brute strength. You need a sharp mind to plan a scheme and carry it out.

If a con man wasn't "charming and unbelievable intelligent", I'd doubt his efficacy as a con man.

And I'll also add that "charming and unbelievable intelligent" is a good way to describe a number of serial killers. Charm and intelligence doesn't a good person make.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by sliverstorm on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:48PM (#14932116)
It's funny how incredibly susceptible HN seems to be to the smooth talkers.

Yeah, I know this person is technically being charged with being a Russian double agent and committing treason, but he just seems so down to earth, relatable, and smart! Swoon!

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by hitekker on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:17PM (#14933167)
It certainly doesn't help that we, especially here on HN, conflate intelligence and morality.

"Ah this guy is smart, so he must be a good person!" or "this person is bad, well he must be an idiot!"

I'd argue, this mental shortcut stems from the way we view ourselves:

"I know I'm smart, but I don't know if I'm good, so I'll just set $smartness = $goodness so I no longer have to worry!"

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by CydeWeys on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:12PM (#14931162)
The outrageous price increases directly led to people dying because they couldn't afford life-saving medication.

There's no redeeming yourself from that just because you're charming or intelligent. Psychopaths often are.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by RunawayGalaxy on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:22PM (#14931256)
FWIW, he claims that he gave the medicine away for free to people who could prove they couldn't afford it, so that he was really only screwing insurance companies. I believe that he was trying to draw media attention to the outrageous, legally-allowed colluding practices of the insurance and pharma industries. It would have been in his best interest to not draw attention to himself and slowly raise the price of the drug over time rather than rock the boat and put himself in the spotlight. I think this agitated a lot of the established powers in the pharma industry, but we're getting into tin hat territory now, so I'll leave it at that.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ceejayoz on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:26PM (#14931296)
> FWIW, he claims that he gave the medicine away for free to people who could prove they couldn't afford it, so that he was really only screwing insurance companies.

Screwing insurance companies means increased costs for everyone. I'd really rather not pay 20% higher premiums every year to pad someone like Shkreli's pocketbook.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ImSkeptical on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931448)
Sure, but the solution is not to wish that people like Shkreli don't raise prices on their drugs. Instead, we need to reform the US healthcare system to stop problems like this.

Many drugs of similar kind, as Shkreli would point out, have a similar price. The difference is that those drugs are owned by faceless pharmaceutical companies with PR teams. Shkreli was an obnoxious person who was doing an obnoxious thing and as a result the government swatted him with some unrelated charges (Incidentally, I thought his defense of "I didn't commit fraud, because all investors made money" was a pretty good defense).

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by freehunter on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:22PM (#14931904)
>the solution is not to wish that people like Shkreli don't raise prices on their drugs

I can wish whatever the hell I want to wish. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right, and everyone here arguing that he's a good person because he's not doing anything illegal is inherently arguing that "legal" == "morally right".

No. He's still a shitty person and I can wish him the most painfully infected ingrown toenails and I will still sleep soundly at night.

I wish that people would do the right thing. I also wish Congress would fix our health care issues. I can do both, and they're both just as likely to happen. In the meantime, he deserves all the public shame in the world.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ImSkeptical on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:02PM (#14933083)
You can absolutely wish whatever you like. That doesn't change the fact that you wishing is not the problem to a poor healthcare system.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Sangermaine on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:48PM (#14931534)
>Sure, but the solution is not to wish that people like Shkreli don't raise prices on their drugs. Instead, we need to reform the US healthcare system to stop problems like this.

The solution is both. Just because a broken system allows you to get away with being a monster doesn't justify you being a monster.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ImSkeptical on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:05PM (#14933094)
I disagree. Only one of those solves the problem. Reforming the healthcare system will (ideally) prevent harmful exploitation. Wishing will do nothing, even if it's your birthday wish.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by singtings on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:08PM (#14931763)
Why did you think his defense was a good one against fraud? He lied to people who gave him their money. That is what fraud is. The outcome does not matter.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ImSkeptical on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:43PM (#14932561)
Fraud has other components beyond just lying. For example, I could tell you that I'm Santa Claus, and, due to the rising complexity of children's toys, I need more money to hire additional elves this year, would you please donate?

That wouldn't be fraud though, because, among other things, you aren't damaged by it. You might be damaged by it if you sent me your money, and I actually used it to buy myself sugar cookies, but you didn't.

What I'm trying to get at is "harm" or "damage" is typically a component of a fraud case. In this case, the defense of "My investors didn't lose money, but actually made back multiples of their initial investment" seems very strong to me.

Shkreli had a company which failed and lost investors money. Rather than break the bad news, he lied to them, started another company, made more money, and paid back his investors. I may have the details wrong, but from this article, that was my main takeaway.

The point about damage goes to intent. Did Shkreli lie to people to take their money and make himself rich? Or did he lie to people to get a working productive business and pay off his investors? The fact that he did the latter implies his intent was the latter.

If I were an investor, I'd be upset that the initial investment failed. I'd be litigious if I realized he had lied to me. If he lied to me and returned my money with profit, I'd just stop doing business with him in the future.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by gaadd33 on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:56PM (#14933983)
Do the early investors who made money from Madoff's funds not have a fraud case against him since they made money even though it was paid out from later investors and not from the actual investments claimed?

It seems like both cases are fraud, it's just that one has a better outcome for the victim than suing and hoping it wasn't all spent on Wu-Tang albums.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by notdonspaulding on Saturday August 05, 2017 @12:51AM (#14934281)
Did ALL of Madoff's investors get paid off, or just the "got-in-on-the-bottom-floor" investors? If it wasn't all it's not the same argument as Shkreli's defense.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by MichaelGG on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:44PM (#14931483)
Great, then get the FDA to approve more people to make lifesaving drugs? A system where you're counting on the generosity of companies to charge low prices seems rather flawed.

Only a couple thousand people use Daraprim in the US. He claims 2/3rd of sales are to the USG at 1c per pill. So if there's 700 full price patients at $100K a course, that's an extra $70M on 3 trillion?

Companies were doing this before he did, and keep doing it now. So get the FDA to change or have a "dire needs" import rule or fix the system.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:57PM (#14931643)
>A system where you're counting on the generosity of companies to charge low prices seems rather flawed.

Oh, it is absolutely flawed and completely corrupt. It's so corrupt it's costing lives rather than just money. I'm not saying it's happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if the FDA's mandates and budget for approval aren't somehow related to keeping profits high.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by seiferteric on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:44PM (#14931490)
There are a lot of details that people seem to gloss over or haven't heard about. I am not sure if its to be believed or if he was just trying to repair his reputation, but he claims that jacking prices up on common drugs was to fund R&D into medicines for less common diseases where treatments are very expensive or don't exist at all. I found that to be a compelling argument because as far as I see it, at least he is (supposedly) trying to do something for these people, while others ignore them. Basically getting insurance companies to pay a lot for some drugs (even if it leads to premium hikes) will socialize the costs of developing other drugs.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by 75dvtwin on Sunday August 06, 2017 @10:45AM (#14941503)
>Screwing insurance companies means increased costs for everyone. I'd really rather not pay 20% higher premiums every year to pad someone like Shkreli's pocketbook.\

- Medical malpractice insurance cost (to cover punitive damages)

- FDA approval process

all increase cost for everyone, who is 'found guilty' for that?

And what do you see public institutions of educations, from public schools to taxpayer funded universities do about that in their educational curriculum? How are children and students taught to analyze the causes of 'increasing costs'?

And what are the journalists, those 'beacons of truth' are doing in that regard? Is the coverage of those legimate reasons for higher cost getting anywhere similar of attention compared to Shkreli's?

(btw, not defending Shrkeli's actions ... have not studied this in detail, just surprised at this onesided moral outrage)

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by brianpgordon on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:40PM (#14931436)
If you make money on a trade, someone else is losing money. That's nothing new.

Where he went wrong is going into the healthcare space with that attitude. Shkreli thought that he didn't care about the bad PR it would bring him, but the microscope on him ended up uncovering illegal behavior.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:58PM (#14931654)
I believe that's only true in flat or declining markets. Growth raises all boats, figuratively speaking.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by brianpgordon on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:43PM (#14933287)
Any time you buy, there's a counterparty selling, and vice versa. If they had not bought or sold on their end, they would have made the money rather than you.

That's all I was trying to say. Obviously this is simplistic and there are many reasons why someone might rationally be fine with being on the losing end- they might have something else better or less-risky to do with their capital, for example, or they might be a market maker that is not interested in holding anything long-term, etc.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by FLUX-YOU on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:41PM (#14933791)
>Screwing insurance companies means increased costs for everyone.

They already increased prices. And they've made an entire clusterfuck in terms of billing codes, bureaucracy, and negotiations before ACA anyway.

Insurance company does poorly while my health improves? My rates go up.

Insurance company does well? My rates stay steady.

I had a car insurance agent tell me this exact reason today. Their underwriters simply increased the price because the company isn't doing well.

Insurance prices can't always go up. Something is going to break. And we're all going to pay a shitload of money and have a bunch of fallout either way.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by RunawayGalaxy on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:57PM (#14933053)
You'd rather let an entire industry continue to screw over millions of Americans out of money and access to healthcare, than let one troll and admittedly fraud profit from exposing said industry? Fair enough.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ceejayoz on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:42PM (#14933940)
Shkreli didn't "expose" anything except his own greed.

I'd love to see the current health insurance situation go away - I'm an advocate of single-payer. That doesn't make Shkreli any less gross.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Sangermaine on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:46PM (#14931518)
>FWIW, he claims that he gave the medicine away for free to people who could prove they couldn't afford it,

Sorry, I find it hard to take the word of someone who was convicted of committing fraud. Fraud that was committed before these claims were made. I guess defrauding his investors was also some 11th dimensional chess move designed to show the weakness of the financial industry, right?

Move over Jesus, we have a new martyr who suffers for our salvation.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by RunawayGalaxy on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:53PM (#14933028)
That's an extremely valid point. But there are documented cases of it being true.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by gaadd33 on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:48PM (#14933959)
Can you link to any documented cases? I searched and couldn't find any that weren't reported on by him or the company, not exactly independent sources.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bmelton on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:56PM (#14934138)
Here's at least one, and IIRC there were others sprinkled throughout this topic when it was much smaller. They're probably much harder to find now.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14931689

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Lewton on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:35PM (#14931384)
Find one person who got it for free
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bmelton on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:01PM (#14931689)
Not trying to play contrarian here, but are there any reported cases of people who've actually died for lack of Daraprim?

> Find one person who got it for free

This guy got it free, for life. http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/this...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:52PM (#14931581)
Patrick Rice gets it free for life after a Reddit AMA. Google not work for you, or were you trying to stonewall the discussion with Rush Limbaugh tactics?

http://nypost.com/2016/02/02/i-was-a-victim-of-the-pharma-ja...

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Lewton on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:20PM (#14932385)
There's that one, very public, case. That happened after the entire ordeal blew up, and happened after shkreli had said that people got it for free if they needed it

It's not nothing, but it's not exactly impressive either

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:50PM (#14932624)
So maybe instead of saying, "Find one person who got it for free," you should have said, "Find one person who got it for free that I like even though the US has some serious medical privacy laws and therefore it's nearly impossible to find unless that sick someone (with HIV) voluntarily comes forward publicly, risking their career and future job prospects, to be on the side of a person that has been heavily vilified in the media circus."
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by samastur on Saturday August 05, 2017 @03:05AM (#14934561)
Or find me a page on company's website that lists steps needed to qualify that are not too onerous and hopefully clear. Phone number would be appreciated too.

You know, something that looks more like a deliberate program and not a one-off.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ceejayoz on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:00PM (#14931685)
Patient assistance programs are pretty common.

I'm on a $10k once every three months medication, and the drug company called to offer to pay any out-of-pocket costs up to $20k/year (deductible, copay, coinsurance etc.) I might have had, regardless of income.

The med probably costs them a couple hundred dollars in manufacturing, so they're happy to pay $20k/year to get $40k/year from my insurance.

(I turned them down - I have no deductible and a $15 copay, but plenty of others aren't in that situation.)

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by baakss on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:18PM (#14931216)
>The outrageous price increases directly led to people dying because they couldn't afford life-saving medication.

Who died? I'm curious because if that happened, I figure we would have heard about it. Do you have a link to a story I can read?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by michrassena on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:54PM (#14931604)
I think it's interesting that since we can put a face and a name on that behavior, it's easy to see that if those price hikes led to someone's death, his actions were immoral or downright evil. It's easy to draw a direct line from his actions to someone else's suffering.

It's well established that what he did so wantonly happens in more hushed tones as a matter of business. The lines are blurred, we find it hard to point fingers at individuals. If Skreli's actions are immoral, so are the actions of the anonymous thousands like him. This is the textbook "banality of evil", and we can see similar consequences everywhere. This seems like classic Philosophy 101 material, is it moral to raise the cost of food when someone will starve?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by purplerabbit on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:18PM (#14931215)
Do you have evidence of this happening? Shkreli said publicly that if anyone couldn't afford his pricey drug he'd ensure that they got it. I have no idea whether he ever followed through.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by orblivion on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:24PM (#14931267)
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by nv-vn on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:29PM (#14931326)
How many people died directly due to Martin's actions? I'm very skeptical of your claim and found nothing to back it up after a quick Google search. The first result was a Quora answer that even said that his moves resulted in no deaths. Do you have any citations for your claim?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by ptr_void on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:21PM (#14931247)
I would like to know more about this if you have sources, I have been following Martin Shkreli on a lot of social media for a while and by his explanations, there shouldn't be any person hurt as result of the price hike that he is famous for.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by shocka98 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:21PM (#14931243)
No it didn't. Provide a source to one person dying from the price hike. His company literally provides it for free if someone can't afford it.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by joering2 on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:01PM (#14932224)
The outrageous fact that police officer pulled over drunk driver and his license got suspended for six months for DUI caused said driver to commit suicide because he couldn't get to work anymore and as a result - he couldn't support his family.

What a horrible police officer right? There is no coming back from this...

In all seriousness I have a hard time blaming investor who had all rights to raise the price of his own product for whatever the fuck reason he wanted to, in a democratic society and on the free market that USA supposed to be. And thenof course then there is EpiPen.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by artursapek on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:13PM (#14932328)
> The outrageous price increases directly led to people dying because they couldn't afford life-saving medication.

Show a single piece of evidence of that.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by tmat on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:38PM (#14931424)
This is absolutely not true. You're speaking out of your ass here. 0 people died. If they couldn't afford it HE GAVE IT TO THEM FREE.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by dghughes on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:38PM (#14931417)
>I find him pretty charming and unbelievably intelligent.

Isn't that part of why people claim he is a psychopath? Smart, lack of empathy, easily gains people's trust, and charm all bang on for traits for psychopathy.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by PeCaN on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:59PM (#14931665)
I have a hard time psychopaths are quite as… blunt, frankly.

He pumps a lot of money into medicine research. He gave away drugs for free to people who couldn't afford it. Neither seem particularly likely for a psychopath, and even if they are, then it's a psychopath having a net positive impact.

He is, largely, just a regular but intelligent asshole. I'm getting kinda tired of seeing "charismatic, smart, has money" == "psychopath" lately.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by enraged_camel on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:14PM (#14931190)
It is very common for "psychopaths" to play charming. That is one of many ways in which they manipulate others because it makes the victims lower their defenses.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by aaronbrethorst on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:15PM (#14931196)
Lots of sociopaths are charming. Fun article: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbxb4m/charming-manipulat...
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by pishpash on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:21PM (#14931244)
These are words you'd use to describe any successful con man.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by chickenfries on Friday August 04, 2017 @10:26PM (#14933894)
That Vice piece felt like great PR for him, so much that I was very suspect of my feelings of sympathy towards him.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by s73ver on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:09PM (#14931145)
He can be both charming and intelligent, and a complete douchebag at the same time.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by moxious on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:13PM (#14931175)
Yes, hat was rather my point, I guess I was just trying to put it more delicately
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by mikeash on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:24PM (#14931268)
What's wrong with Congress questioning someone about legal but shady activity? If he broke the law, he'd just be prosecuted. No reason for Congress to have anything to do with it. But if what he did was legal but wrong, then maybe the law should be changed, and that's exactly what Congress is for.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by cowmoo728 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:39PM (#14931430)
It doesn't inspire confidence that they questioned Shkreli, who was a relatively small player in the medical space, while a senator's daughter was in the middle of one of the most egregious price gouging schemes in recent memory. They even wrote legislation to make it mandatory to carry their product in schools and public buildings.

The Shkreli inquiry reeked of hypocrisy and grandstanding. Those congressmen knew perfectly well what was going on, and many of them receive contributions from companies involved in it.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by sol_remmy on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:15PM (#14931839)
> while a senator's daughter was in the middle of one of the most egregious price gouging schemes in recent memory.

For anyone curious, CEO of Epipen manufacturer Mylar is Heather Bresch . She is the daughter of senator Joe Manchin, who has introduced bills in the Senate to change FDA regulations to favor his daughter's company.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by artursapek on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:12PM (#14932315)
Not to mention that their "questioning" was not even questioning, but instead exactly what you say - grandstanding. They basically unloaded uninformed rants on him while he was forced to sit there.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by spinlock on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:45PM (#14932092)
Because Congress didn't need to find out any facts. They just wanted to put on a show to sway public opinion.

Remember when they questioned Toyota over unintended acceleration? That made Toyota apologize and generally made the public believe that Toyota was at fault.

Now, consider that at the time Congress questioned Toyota they were the largest shareholder in Toyota's biggest competitor (GM) and, when NASA examined the evidence, they found no issues in Toyota's products.

If you want to talk about securities fraud, that Congressional hearing should be at the top of the list.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by tnecniv on Saturday August 05, 2017 @03:48PM (#14937536)
> when NASA examined the evidence, they found no issues in Toyota's products.

Well they found plenty of issues. The code was unreadable. They didn't find anything that would cause unintended acceleration.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by spinlock on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @06:56PM (#14963757)
That was not one of NASA's findings. It was the finding of a paid "expert".
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by MBCook on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:30PM (#14931333)
This is hardly the first time this happened, they could have easily made a law years ago.

Have they introduced the Shkreli Can't Endanger those Represented by Welfare Act have they?

This was a PR stunt.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:35PM (#14931381)
Yes, it absolutely was a PR stunt. I mentioned earlier that congress gets paid a lot of money to not regulate pharmaceuticals, this was them trying to save face so the fleecing can continue. Just an example of absolute corruption of our federal government.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bmelton on Saturday August 05, 2017 @12:02AM (#14934154)
> What's wrong with Congress questioning someone about legal but shady activity?

If Congress had invited him to come testify, and he'd accepted, I would have absolutely zero problems with that. But that wasn't the situation he was in -- he was forced to attend a Congressional hearing by federal subpoena, for an action that was obviously not illegal in any way.

At the least, it was a small abuse of power in exchange for a publicity stunt. At the worst, it was unlawful detainment in an attempt to intimidate.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Sangermaine on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:18PM (#14931222)
He tried to expose "hypocrisy" by committing fraud and pricing vital medication out of many people who need it's ability to pay? All the while acting like a complete asshole and working hard to disrupt his own trial?

How will society ever survive without this white knight's protection?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by davesque on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:07PM (#14931753)
Thanks for sharing that. I've never really gotten on board the Shkreli hate wagon. I've just regarded him with a mixture of skepticism and curiosity. People love banding together and agreeing collectively about what they like and dislike. It tends to make me uneasy to get involved with that so I've tried to stay neutral in my views on him.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by PhasmaFelis on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:13PM (#14931172)
Shkreli was blunt and open about a sleazy thing that many others are cagey about. That doesn't make him better than them, just more visible.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:37PM (#14931412)
It exposes it. Not quite as monumental, but a Snowden moment. Remember, congress did squat about the price gouging, because that's what they get paid to do.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by beagle3 on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:00PM (#14932212)
I wish it were a Snowden moment, but it wasn't. Analogous things are happening all the time - e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/30/business/questcor-finds-pr... - from $40/botle to $28,000/bottle over a period of 7 years; it has, in fact gone up since, and I can't find the source right now, but in fact Questcor has also cornered the synthetic version and jacked it up as well, so everyone in the US who needs it pays >$15,000/vial ; Meanwhile, if you get it outside the US, it's still less than $100/vial anywhere in the world.

All pharma companies are supervillians, and they all corner supplies and jack prices, but they do it more quietly and usually a little slower. Shkreli just went to the endgame faster, and had a villain media portrait. But he is not any different and he definitely did not induce a Snowden moment. I wish he had.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @05:24PM (#14932415)
I'm a little more hopeful that regard, perhaps misguided. Shkreli is a commonly known name because of his persona and the way the media latched on to it. It was a perfect story. Bad guy, doing bad things to sick people. Hell I even know how to spell his name and he has been in the news for quite a while.

Questcor on the other hand, I've never heard of. Not a very juicy story, and any juiciness is the result of Shkreli. Will it make a difference? There is a lot of money preventing it from making a difference, but it's about to become a political career killer to allow this to go on I believe. At the very least, it's in the public discourse.

Comparatively, Snowden's revelations hasn't really changed squat either. Maybe I shouldn't be so optimistic.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by aseipp on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:55PM (#14933042)
> Shkreli seems to be trying to expose this hypocrisy, but the news loves their stories.

Ahhh, my favorite pastime, exposing hypocrisy. To do this, you have to play 47 dimensional chess. My recommended strategy for this is to defraud investors and then get rich off price-jacking pharmaceuticals. It's a proven strategy!

(Proven to get you convicted.)

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by mgbmtl on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:11PM (#14931794)
As a Canadian, I'm just curious: what are the current proposals to regulate pharmaceutical sales in the US?

In most Canadian provinces, the provincial government is the only authorized purchaser for prescribed medication. It is then sold to pharmacies and hospitals, who are in charge of distribution. (in some provinces, such as Quebec, a mix of public or private insurance will then cover most of the purchase of medication; everyone is covered by the public plan, but your employer is mandated to get a private plan if they can)

When Shkreli says "f-- Walmart" (in the Vice interview), it's horrifying, because I know a lot of people in the US who are not covered by insurance, so they buy medication at Walmart.. This is really hard to understand.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by freehunter on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:16PM (#14931844)
There are no serious proposals on the table with any chance of becoming law. The ruling party believes that government should not be involved in healthcare in any way and would rather move in the direction of less regulation instead of more.

The minority party has several plans, but are still divided.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by bronzeage on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:02PM (#14931704)
That interview changed my point of view as well. It does indeed seem like hypocrisy, and like the competing and stronger drug companies set up this publication lynch. I can't believe that out of all the strong drug companies, the first time a drug was increased in price is this poor 2015 founded company. Why is it, that the first time we hear about this common practice in drug industry it's within this relatively new company?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by throwawayjava on Friday August 04, 2017 @09:00PM (#14933631)
> It was kinda sleazy to see the congress question him about his price increases when they knew damn well it was perfectly legal and they haven't done anything to stop it

Lots of things are legal uses of taxpayer money.

Lots of things aren't illegal but are worthy of public condemnation.

The intersection of those things are EXACTLY the sorts of things I want my congress people going after.

Do you disagree, or do you just like seeing things burn?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by fragsworth on Friday August 04, 2017 @11:04PM (#14934008)
The point is that the system should be fixed, not just "condemn" someone for abusing it. If it's legal to do something unconscionable then that legality should change.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:05PM (#14931727)
> It was kinda sleazy to see the congress question him about his price increases when they knew damn well it was perfectly legal and they haven't done anything to stop it.

Do you have any suggestions on how what exactly they should've done? Passed a law that says "you cannot increase the price of a drug beyond 5x" or something?

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:18PM (#14931875)
Just to throw something out there to start, I would limit price hikes over time, say 10% a year. I'm open to any alternatives.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by wfunction on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:47PM (#14933000)
Without even any mention of what the manufacturer can do to cover cost increases? You really think it can be so simple?
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @07:35PM (#14933253)
I would suspect the vast majority of the cost of drugs is R&D, including the FDA approval process. They can factor that in on initial cost when they release the drug. The 10% is only for increases.

Hopefully instead of someone buying a drug that has already been released won't buy it because they can jack up the price 5000%. They would have to factor in the 10% rule when purchasing. Unfortunately this might lead to expensive release costs, but that already happens.

It might not be perfect, but 6000% increases because more yachts is a hell of a lot worse.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by QAPereo on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:05PM (#14931729)
Sociopaths, in limited circumstances, can sometimes be very charming.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by akira2501 on Saturday August 05, 2017 @04:56AM (#14934858)
> Shkreli seems to be trying to expose this hypocrisy, but the news loves their stories.

Sociopaths love pointing out that they only hurt you because they wanted to make you stronger.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by slantedview on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:46PM (#14931509)
Still a horrible person for so many reasons (including this one [1] the other day).

[1] https://twitter.com/laurenduca/status/890960104262180865

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by sAvi0r on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:10PM (#14931781)
The only horrible person in that tweet is the rat messaging her that crap so he can write some clickbait garbage for whatever trash site he works for, tbh. Let's be real - we all say stupid shit while drunk.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by TYE7JIKED5JK on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:42PM (#14932071)
Repeated, direct verbal harassment, and inciting a mob of sycophants to follow suit is patently disgusting. He may be technically competent, but he completely lacks social intelligence.

Surely he's made his money at this point - the only thing driving his behavior is narcissism.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by cloakandswagger on Friday August 04, 2017 @06:48PM (#14933004)
Pretty funny if you ask me. They've had a long running and playful "feud" for a while now.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by RodericDay on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:11PM (#14931795)
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/all-of-your-attempts-...

> For some reason, recently a number of writers seem to have taken it upon themselves to salvage Martin Shkreli’s reputation. Previously, there had been a rough consensus that Shkreli, the oily, simpering pharmaceutical executive who raised the price of HIV drugs by 5000 percent before being indicted on fraud charges, was one of the most cretinous human beings alive. This seemed utterly uncontroversial, in fact so self-evident as to render debate unnecessary. [...] But a miniature genre of article has sprung up recently: the Martin Skhreli Is Not As Bad As You Think hot take. From Vanity Fair to The Washington Post to The New Yorker, authors have issued the provocative thesis that, far from being the mealy, smirking, patronizing little snot he appears to be both at a distance and up close, Shkreli is anything from a blameless cog in a vast dysfunctional apparatus to a sweet and tender do-gooder unfairly disparaged by a society too stupid and hateful to appreciate his genius.

> And the Vice profile, while questioning a number of Shkreli’s claims and containing numerous criticisms, calls Shkreli a “finance wunderkind” and “a Horatio Alger story” and sympathetically relays Shkreli’s claim that his unapologetically money-grubbing attitude is merely an exaggerated caricature that he plays for the public to entertain himself. [...] Let’s be clear: these reporters are dupes.

> One of Shkreli’s ex-girlfriends has confirmed that he is a manipulative, psychologically abusive habitual liar with zero capacity for empathy. As she explained: It soon became obvious that Martin was a pathological liar, would pretend to cheat on me and brag about it to raise his value in my eyes, so I’d always feel like I was hanging on by a thread, could be replaced, would vie for his approval and forgiveness.

> Shkreli’s ex-girlfriend also displayed screenshots of conversations in which Shkreli offered to pay her ten thousand dollars for sex, a proposition that revolted her.

> His menacing behavior has been noted elsewhere: he has been accused of waging a harassment campaign against an ex-employee, writing in an email that “I hope to see you and your four children homeless and will do whatever I can to assure this.”

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by am1988 on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:12PM (#14931168)
Of course they are legal. It doesn't make him any better as a person.
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:32PM (#14931346)
So here is why it's important to take Shkreli down. Congress gets paid lots of money to not regulate pharmaceuticals. 13 democrats recently voted against a bill allowing the US to import Pharma from Canada, so it's both parties.

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/139825/cory-booker-not-frien...

Congress is in hot water over the cost of prescription drugs and they need to do something, and something fast ... as long as that isn't actually reducing the cost of prescription drugs, because, you know, donors. Shkreli is the perfect mark, or scapegoat for this because he has been quite vocal. Consider he isn't the only one doing this. Many (donating) Pharma companies do this yet are quiet about it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2017/02/10/a-6000...

Anyway, if they take down Shkreli, congress looks like they are doing something, without actually doing anything. Notice they didn't take him down for his price gouging. Yes, that will continue to go on just as the donors planned. The masses are satisfied with their sacrifice. Carry on.

Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by aaronbrethorst on Friday August 04, 2017 @03:45PM (#14931502)
Re:Martin Shkreli is found guilty of securities fraud by Clubber on Friday August 04, 2017 @04:05PM (#14931735)
I appreciate that link. I haven't seen that image though. The clarification isn't that inspiring. It seems to be arguing that they do in fact take money, it just isn't quite as much as the image represents. All of them fell back on their concerns that Canadian drugs don't satisfy our "safety standards." Honestly, if it were El Salvador or something, maybe, but Canada, not so much.

"The 13 Democrats did vote against one amendment that was intended to lower drug prices through reimportation of medicines from Canada, and they have each taken money from drugmakers."