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Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by harshreality on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @12:49PM (#14798030)
> The findings surprised both researchers: A dozen of the 14 compounds were still as potent as they were when they were manufactured, some at almost 100 percent of their labeled concentrations.

What kind of reporting is this? Anything less than 100% is not "as potent as when manufactured", and the sentence implies some of those dozen weren't close to 100%.

> The idea that drugs expire on specified dates goes back at least a half-century, when the FDA began requiring manufacturers to add this information to the label. The time limits allow the agency to ensure medications work safely and effectively for patients. To determine a new drug’s shelf life, its maker zaps it with intense heat and soaks it with moisture to see how it degrades under stress. It also checks how it breaks down over time. The drug company then proposes an expiration date to the FDA, which reviews the data to ensure it supports the date and approves it. Despite the difference in drugs’ makeup, most “expire” after two or three years.

That seems to be the problem. There was a procedure in place to set expiration dates scientifically, and it was ignored for some reason, limiting the legal shelf life of even the most stable compounds to a few years.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by Greed on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:41PM (#14798524)
I work for a company that has some periphery exposure to FDA-regulation, and as a result we have to do a lot of very similar scientific calculations to satisfy their archival records. A big part of why most medicines still expire (at least for medicines available over the counter) much earlier than they should is that a majority of the testing is done to determine the expiration date at a controlled temperature, pressure, and humidity.

They test how it degrades under stress to determine a maximum viability under perfectly stable conditions. They are not accounting for the typical medicine storage places: a bathroom cabinet where the temperature and humidity will vary wildly within a matter of minutes, a cool, damp fridge, or even the reading table next to your bed-- constantly exposed to UV light from the windows.

I'm relaying this secondhand from a former FDA contractor, but I can only surmise that for a company with the litagative risk level that any pharmaceutical entity incurs, the old adage of "Better Safe Than Sorry" is a major part of the story that's missing here.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by lostcolony on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:02PM (#14799145)
Beyond that, what is the incentive on the part of the company? No one is evaluating medications based on shelf life. Longer expiration dates -at best- do nothing favorable for the company, and at worst both reduce the purchase of more of the drug, -and- open the company up to litigation in the even it's dangerous. Why take that risk? There is simply no economic pressure to.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by Spooky23 on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:26PM (#14799783)
I don't think there's an economic pressure to have a longer shelf life either.

It's not any more efficient to stockpile drugs, and it doesn't make sense to do so, as your need for prescription drugs is likely not going to be multiple years.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sliverstorm on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:29PM (#14800911)
Well, although supposedly the Army specifically liked Cipro because of the shelf life, so that's one case counter.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by BurningFrog on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:59PM (#14800022)
Here's a startup idea:

Develop an "indicator pill" that changes color at the same rate as an individual medication.

It would be in (or part of) the bottle with the other pills, and be customizable to react to humidity, temperature and time in the same way as the particular medication.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by readams on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:23PM (#14800869)
The main problem is that there just isn't data on how much these drugs degrade. The expiration date is based on some preliminary measurements and conservative guesstimates. Neither the FDA nor the drug companies really cares or wants to see these dates extended.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by BurningFrog on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:40AM (#14802017)
There probably is no data in part because there is no good way to use such data.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by Lordarminius on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @06:21PM (#14800507)
> Here's a startup idea:...

How feasible would that be for thousands of different drugs with hundreds of thousands of different formulations and chemical compositions and various storage factors ?

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by arkades on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:02PM (#14800729)
In fairness, about 200 drugs account for the majority of stuff sitting on Americans' countertops. No need to hit thousands to get pretty good coverage.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by StavrosK on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:52PM (#14799516)
I don't understand your comment. You say they test at a controlled pressure, whereas conditions in the typical medicine cabinet vary wildly, and then say that that's why the drugs expire much earlier than they should.

Do you mean that varying conditions make medicines last longer? You can't mean that medicines would last much longer if stored in perfect conditions, because that's not expiring "earlier than they should", it's expiring exactly on time for the poor conditions they are kept in.

Can you clarify?

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by johnnyhillbilly on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:16PM (#14800800)
I'll chime in.

Most chemical processes happen faster with a higher temperature. Some drugs decay into harmful substances (e.g. Aspirin).

Other factors, such as humidity or UV, may play a part as well.

Rather than testing every permutation of storage conditions over time, manufacturers put a safety margin. Individual consumers aren't in a position to remember exactly how they treated any given container of pills. Even if the manufacturer knew how a given sequence of storage practices affected their drug, nobody would be the wiser.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by StavrosK on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @04:07AM (#14802652)
Ah, I see, thanks.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by collyw on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:38PM (#14799415)
Most medicines are sold in blister packs these days. Won't that prevent a fair bit of the environmental stress from affecting them?
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by dragonwriter on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:55PM (#14799532)
> Most medicines are sold in blister packs these days. Won't that prevent a fair bit of the environmental stress from affecting them?

Well, it keeps out humidity, and might prevent air-exposure effects. It won't prevent heat effects and some other environmental effects.

Also, quite a lot are sold in bottles of pills or other non-blister-pack forms.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by BrandoElFollito on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @05:09PM (#14800082)
I live in France and cannot remember the last time I saw pills not in a blister pack.

I remember vaguely having seen pills in bottles maybe 20 or 30 years ago. Again this is for France, I know that e.g. in the US one gets refills.

Which by the way I find great because the waste of pills is tremendous. It would have been much better to get the specific number prescribed.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sliverstorm on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:31PM (#14800922)
It is a waste of pills- but in many cases the marginal production cost of a pill is incredibly small. See generic asprin, many hundreds of pills for a few dollars at an ordinary grocery store. More than you need, but the packaging & marketing probably still costs more than the pills.

Over here, benadryl is the main over-the-counter drug I see in blister packs. They say it's to slow down the meth cookers.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by alikoneko on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @08:52AM (#14803899)
I think you mean Sudafed. Sudafed is pseudophedrin, which is a great decongestant and used to make meth. In most states, you have to go up to the counter and ask for it, as well as supply ID and sign a form promising not to do anything illegal with it. Benadryl is diphenhydramine, which is just an antihistamine, and you can totally get in bottles (in the states). I tend to always have both on hand in case of an allergy attack. Granted, I'm more likely to reach for the Sudafed than the Benadryl. Benadryl has the side effect of intense drowsiness (I guess you can't sneeze if you're in a coma). I also buy a year's supply of Zyrtec and benadryl at Costco. It might seem like a "waste" but when you suffer from bad allergies, it really isn't.

I'm a long time pollen allergy sufferer living in the hell that is South Florida. I know my allergy meds.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by DugFin on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:44AM (#14802025)
That's not the reason. Benadryl being in blister packs long predates its use in meth cooking, like by 30 years. The real reason is more likely marketing. If they sold them in a bottle, the amount they charge for those few tiny pills would seem outrageous. A blister pack gives the packaging more volume.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by cwsx on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @06:01PM (#14800394)
This varies quite a bit throughout the world (I think). I've had both blisters and bottles in New Zealand/Australia.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by emmelaich on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @06:53PM (#14800692)
Yeah, I think USA is atypical for bottles. I was surprised to see bottles of 1000 Tylenol* tablets at the CVS chain.

In Australia the only thing in bottles are vitamins and similar, though it is possible to get small bottles.

* acetaminophen / paracetamol

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by kiahjw on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @08:40PM (#14801239)
Most medications at the patient-level are in amber vials in the US (all pills loose). BUT there are still plenty of meds still further up the supply chain that are in tamper-evident packaging and could be donated if short-dated.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by beebmam on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:05PM (#14798704)
Great comment, and I couldn't agree more.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:34PM (#14798440)
When working with biological systems, most of the time your acceptable error margin is between 10-25%. There are a few compounds (like fentanyl or LSD) where the dosages are so small and the compound so potent that 10-25% makes a difference but for the majority, precision isn't that critical. The ones where it does matter are tightly controlled and clinically applied by a professional with active monitoring.

The only drugs that weren't within 10% of their original concentrations, according to the study, were amphetamines and aspirin. I can't think of any uses off the top of my head for those two where even 25% would make much of a difference to outcomes - amphetamines are mostly used as general purpose stimulants or to treat ADD and aspirin is not the blood thinner of choice for life and death situations. With amphetamines especially, what you eat and small factors like blood pH can have a massive impact on their effectiveness so we're already talking 10-20% differences day by day, let alone person to person.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by jack9 on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:16PM (#14798807)
Those 122 compounds were also over-representing publicly available products, as opposed to medically regulated compounds. You would need more rigor for a study where the compound efficacy actually mattered to make a general finding, across all classes of drugs. 25% difference in a beta blocker, glycerine, or blood thinner is a fatal change. These drugs are monitored with physical symptoms (metroprolol) and/or regular blood testing (sodium warafin/heparin/lovenox).
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:03PM (#14798684)
And to add into that, dosage studies are rarely adequately done for most drugs. The dose we take is often a best guess and may be twice or more than we need, so 10% is even more inconsequential.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by criley2 on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:21PM (#14798849)
This is completely wrong.

Dosage studies happens between Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials (and Phase 4 "post marketing" too) and are the most expensive, longest and most scientific process that arguably any business engages in in the entire world.

Phase 1 is a safety test in healthy ~men. These seek to find the maximum dose before adverse effects appear in the healthiest humans.

Phase 2 is a safety/dosage test in a much larger and varied sample. We know dose ranges and begin testing them for efficacy in a varied population.

Phase 3 is the big one. It's a randomized, controlled, double blind test of SPECIFIC dosages in SPECIFIC target populations to scientifically prove efficacy over placebo.

The dose we take is not a "BEST GUESS"

It is the result of a billion dollars of scientific study and that PRECISE NME (new molecular entity) has been studied, at that PRECISE dose, in a target population, for it's effectiveness, and it must be better than existing-treatments and better than placebo.

It should be highlighted that this process takes on average 10 years, costs $1 billion dollars, and has a success rate (success meaning FDA approval) of about 1 in 10,000 attempts (hence the price tag).

Source: Drugs: From Discovery to Approval, Second Edition http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1002/9780470403587

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:29PM (#14799344)
Please see papers like-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14714120 No difference in response between people taking 20 mg prozac daily vs. every third day.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by maxerickson on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:23PM (#14798872)
Do all 10,000 attempts go through all the testing? Or are many weeded out before $1 billion has been spent?
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:32PM (#14798942)
The $1 billion dollar cost per drug is risk adjusted, so it includes all failed attempts at clinical trials and compounds that didn't make it through pre-trial screening.

Edit: The $1 billion number is meaningless outside the context of large pharmaceutical companies. The cost for phase 3 trials is in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so the floor is a wide range and there have been instances of companies getting incredibly lucky and developing a drug for much less than a full billion.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by learntofly on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:58PM (#14801058)
Why are drugs almost exclusively dosed in multiples of 5, ie 50mcg, 250mg? Surely this introduces a margin of error vs the "perfect" dose.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by AstralStorm on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:37AM (#14802172)
Come on, metabolism itself is reasonably variable even with controlled diet and perfect adherence. In reality, even more so.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by PixelB on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:07PM (#14799189)
Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. Your source is a book written with heavy influence by the Pharmaceutical industry to justify the obscene costs of their drugs, making billions in profits off of sick, poor people.

You are the one who is completely wrong.

The dosages most certainly do start out with a "best guess" in the pre-clinical phase. For any given drug we would guess at the doses based on our calculations, and give a range on either end. If we thought the effective dose would be 1 mg/kg, we would run an LD50 of doses much higher than that, 10mg/kg, 100mg/kg. Sometimes our guesses would be wrong, and the low dose animals would die as a result. After figuring out a safe dose, we would then split it further into different dosing groups to test the effectiveness of the compound. Most people in the field are underpaid, overworked, and do sloppy work

Please talk to someone who has actually worked in the Pharma research field, they will tell you most of what they do is just guessing.. why do you think only 1 in 10,000 make it through?

It's all a guess until the end, and even then we're often not sure. Look at anti-depressants. We still don't know how a lot of those work but prescribe them to millions of people regardless. How do you think they determined the dose when they don't know how the drug works?

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:50PM (#14799960)
You and the GP talking about entirely different things. You're talking about how investigators choose the initial dose for the clinical trials, he's talking about the dosage that is actually prescribed by doctors.

Hence the 'The dose we take is not a "BEST GUESS"' (emphasis mine). Unless you're a lab animal or a person in a clinical trial, the does you take is the end result of lots of money spent on first figuring out maximum safe dosages (Phase 1) to prescribing guidelines that doctors are taught (Phase 3).

Antidepressants are a unique group of drugs because the dosage is highly dependent on each person's unique brain chemistry and a huge part of a good psychiatrist's job is working with their patients to find the right dosage and combination. The problem is that many psychiatrists don't have the time (due to insurance billing practices) or the patience to do the work but any decent psychiatrist will tell you that recommended doses for antidepressants are just a safe starting point for most patients, not the dosage that they will eventually find most effective.

For the record, I have worked in the pharmaceutical industry on pre-clinical drug development and Phase 1-3 marketing applications and the GP's description is largely accurate whereas you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I wouldn't trust a single book about the drug development process that wasn't heavily influenced by the pharmaceutical industry in one way or another just like I wouldn't trust anyone without semiconductor industry experience when talking about Intel's cutting edge fabrication processes.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by chillwaves on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @11:34PM (#14801864)
> Antidepressants are a unique group of drugs because the dosage is highly dependent on each person's unique brain chemistry and a huge part of a good psychiatrist's job is working with their patients to find the right dosage and combination.

How does one accomplish this absent trial and error?

This fact undermines the entirety of your argument.

"Best guess" is exactly what they do.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @03:19AM (#14802511)
You do know what "unique" means in this context, right? Hint: it means that antidepressants are the exception to my argument because psychopharmacology is so much more dependent on genetic/environmental factors than the rest of the pharmacological field that we cannot draw conclusions on the effectiveness of dosages pre-treatment without spending 100-1000x more time and money on the clinical trials than we do now.

Please take your clearly ignorant bias and anti-pharma prejudice somewhere else - you have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by AstralStorm on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:35AM (#14802167)
It is not a guess. It is statistics. Typically, the dose is either effective or partially effective and often on the smaller side as Phase 3 also looks at side effects.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by gph on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:27PM (#14799798)
>It's all a guess until the end, and even then we're often not sure. Look at anti-depressants. We still don't know how a lot of those work but prescribe them to millions of people regardless. How do you think they determined the dose when they don't know how the drug works?

We know how antidepressants work, the chemical reaction is well known and can be quantified at different doses. We just don't know why they work because we don't understand why/how the brain works.

Pedantic but important difference.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by tpm on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @05:19PM (#14800162)
No, we don't know the antidepressive mechanism of antidepressants, therefore we don't know how they work. Understanding some neurochemical reactions and biological adaptations they cause is not enough. (We also don't have a complete understanding of depressive disorders, we don't really have very effective medication/therapy for many depressive people, etc.)
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by YawningAngel on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:59PM (#14800026)
SSRIs, SSRIs, MAOIs and TCAs all have reasonably well understood pharmacology. As an extreme example, there are very detailed guidelines on how to prescribe venlafaxine, to whom, and who should supervise. You're free to dispute these claims but I think you need to produce more than a blanket dismissal, especially as the OP offers a seemingly reasonable source.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by tripzilch on Thursday July 20, 2017 @09:25AM (#14812223)
You're talking about the study linked as "2006 study of 122 drugs", right? I can't find amphetamines in the tables or the text, what page is it on? (or was it maybe another paper linked in the article?)

I have a prescription for dexamphetamine, but I don't use/need it a lot, so I have some bottles left that are a bit old--not past the expiration date, which appears to be slightly less than 3 years (after the date of the recipe), on the bottle I'm currently looking at. So I was curious about the amphetamines in particular, and if it's just efficacy deteriorating a bit that's fine, because in my personal experience the effect (which is quickly and clearly noticeable) varies easily by 25% already, depending on so many other factors (like what/how much I eat, how well I slept, stuff like that).

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by DINKDINK on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:24PM (#14798879)
>your acceptable error margin is between 10-25%

10-25 percent of....what?

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sevenfive on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:09PM (#14798738)
> There are a few compounds (like fentanyl or LSD) where the dosages are so small and the compound so potent that 10-25% makes a difference but for the majority, precision isn't that critical.

Wrong. Therapeutic ratio, not dosage.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:29PM (#14798921)
Wrong. LSD and fentanyl have polar opposite therapeutic indexes - the therapeutic index is specific to toxicity whereas I'm talking about clinical outcomes in general. There are drugs that have threshold doses below which there is essentially no effect on the patient but aren't toxic until 10-1000x that threshold dose. Fentanyl just happens to have an effective threshold dosage that is dangerously close to its LD50.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by philipkglass on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:01PM (#14799581)
LSD has an exceptionally wide therapeutic index, but fentanyl's therapeutic index of 270 is pretty good as prescribed drugs go. That's a far wider TI than over the counter painkillers like ibuprofen. Warfarin, a common narrow-therapeutic-index drug, has a TI of ~2.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:17PM (#14800808)
Fentanyl's therapeutic index is NOT 270 except when used as an opioid supplement for surgical anesthesia cocktails, where the dosage is less a microgram per kilogram and it's balanced with several other drugs and opioid antagonists. The maximum recommended dose for fentanyl is 50 mcg/kg and that requires ventilation because it is well above the estimated LD50 of 30 mcg/kg. The recommended low dose for fentanyl on its own is 1 mcg/kg so at best we're talking about a therapeutic index of 30.

LSD's therapeutic index is unknown because its LD50 has never been established in humans or monkeys and you can't extrapolate from non-primate animals to humans (for example, rats can handle a dose of fentanyl that is a thousand times higher per kg than monkeys can, which is where many of our LD50 estimates come from).

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by philipkglass on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:30PM (#14800920)
I didn't know that extra context about the numbers for fentanyl. Thanks for correcting me.

I was going to post something long about LSD but it turns out I am just wrong. So thanks twice, and have my upvote.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @08:35PM (#14801226)
Glad I could enlighten. The therapeutic index is a very subjective measurement that makes some drugs sound safer (or more dangerous) than they really are. Both the numerator and denominator in the ratio are very situation dependent. For example, trazadone is a hypnotic at doses in the tens of milligram but an anti-depressant at doses in the hundreds of milligrams so depending on what you're using it for, its therapeutic index could be different by up to 100x.

Likewise, in a clinical setting (i.e, with a trained anesthesiologist in fentanyl's case), the dose at which 50% of patients die from a given drug is usually much higher because trained professionals can quickly receive feedback by monitoring the patient's symptoms and apply drugs or medical devices to keep them alive well beyond what could kill someone on the street.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sevenfive on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @05:16PM (#14800138)
Excuse me, index. A dimensionless quantity. Nothing to do with potency. And you could hardly pick worse drugs to spread misinformation about.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @06:09PM (#14800440)
I do not believe that you have the requisite knowledge of pharmacology to talk intelligently on these topics so you should stop correcting people who do, especially when your other comments suggest that your knowledge is based entirely on recreational drug databases. Anyone who has spent time working in the pharmaceutical industry knows that "therapeutic index" and "therapeutic ratio" are used interchangeably and that I never said anything even remotely related to either of those until you brought it up out of nowhere.

The therapeutic index is the ratio of the therapeutic dose to the dose at which the drug starts becoming toxic in 50% of the sample. I repeat, for the third time, I was not talking about toxicity. We are discussing drug expiration dates and you will not experience toxicity from a drug that has been degraded over time to a dosage lower than the one you were prescribed, except in extremely rare circumstances. A drug's therapeutic index is entirely irrelevant to what I am talking about - I don't know how I can make that any more clear.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sevenfive on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @11:37PM (#14801872)
But what you said was still totally wrong, regardless of whether you're talking about toxicity or anything else. LSD is not so finicky that a 25% change in the dose makes a noticeable difference -- most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 100 ug tab and a 125 ug one.

It also does not follow that because a drug is active in small amounts, i.e. micrograms instead of milligrams, that a small percent change in the dosage will be more important. Full stop illogical, and also not true in practice.

So yes, I'm not a doctor and I don't know the jargon. And when I read your comment I forgot the article was about expiration dates, i.e. percent decrease. And yet you were still wrong on that particular point.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @03:09AM (#14802473)
LSD is an agonist for most classes of serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic receptors - most of which have sensitive, nonlinear responses and all of which uptake the agonist at very different rates depending on individual biochemistry. We don't have the data to say for certain because of prohibition and the DEA's reluctance to allow researchers to study LSD but every other drug combination that operates on such a diverse set of receptors is extremely sensitive to dosage because all of those receptors have interdependent feedback loops - which makes them mostly useless for therapeutic uses. This is also why monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are so dangerous with such a wide array of drugs - the enzymes that break down monoamine neurotransmitters are regulated by serotonin+dopamine receptor interactions and even a tiny amount of MAO inhibitors can wreck havoc on that balance, causing some severe symptoms up to and including death. This happens because, even though MAOs are rather indiscriminate on which monoamines they target, their effect on each different neurotransmitter is variable and nonlinear.

In my personal experience (a decade of Burning man), when you do have a known concentration of liquid LSD (measured with an LCMS) that you carefully handle, store, and dilute for dosages, 100 mcg and 125 mcg can mean the difference between a good trip and a bad one in at least a tenth of my sample size and can drastically change the intensity of hallucinations (going from zero to fractal visuals to aliens) in a good quarter - not to mention the effect on the body high and introspection. If you're buying tabs, the chances that you are even close to the original concentration falls rapidly the further removed you are from the original source. Most people can't tell the difference between a 100mcg and 125mcg tab because those dosages are exaggerated and many people feel stereotypical effects at lower dosages. You can easily test this by eating a significant fraction of a blotter: you are extremely unlikely to experience the effects described by the literature of 50 ng/mL blood concentrations even if you're lucky enough to get to 5 ng/mL effects with a few tabs.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sevenfive on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:11AM (#14804363)
IME bad trips are mostly determined by how neurotic the tripper is. If you can accurately say that a 25% increase causes a 10% increase in bad trips, you must have quite a lot of experience. I at least know that if some people take one tab and others take two at the same time, the ones who took two don't go flying off the walls.

Saying that a 25% change is more significant for more potent drugs is illogical on the face of it, because a % is a dimensionless quantity. If there is some subtle reason why this trend exists I'd love to hear it.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:39PM (#14806728)
> Saying that a 25% change is more significant for more potent drugs is illogical on the face of it, because a % is a dimensionless quantity. If there is some subtle reason why this trend exists I'd love to hear it.

Actually, the reverse is illogical because few biochemical systems have linear responses, especially when you're talking about something as complicated as the neurotransmitter systems that LSD effects. Potency depends on two factors: the affinity of the drug, or how well it binds to its target receptors, and efficacy, or the relationship between the concentration of the drug (and second order neurotransmitters) and the ability of the receptors to initiate a cellular response. Neither of those two factors are linear and they both change as the concentrations of the drug and its byproducts change. As neuron receptors are activated by LSD, they cause cells to release a flood of other neurotransmitters at varying concentrations (dependent on LSD concentration and individual brain chemistry) that start interacting in complex ways like preventing the LSD and other neurotransmitters from binding as effectively (lowering their affinity), potentiating the cellular response (increasing its strength aka increasing efficacy), or building tolerance (lowering efficacy due to exposure). Each receptor and neurotransmitter pair behaves differently. Neurotransmitters in general can't activate cellular responses before they are above a threshold potential that causes the neuron to react, after which the cellular response is never linear. A 2x increase in concentration will rarely achieve a 2x response unless it falls in a small range where the curve is mostly linear, and even then the complex interactions between all of the neurotransmitters will usually compound into a nonlinear response anyway.

These interactions get so complicated, for example, that you get many cases were an opiate A, which is technically 10x more potent than an opiate B, can actually be less potent at treating mild pain because it has a steep response curve that doesn't ramp up until a certain dose. 10mcg/kg of opiate B might be 10x stronger than 10mcg/kg of opiate A (which could be too low to even feel the painkilling effects of opiate A) but once you hit 50mcg/kg concentrations, opiate A might be 10x more potent than opiate B, whose effects plateau with doses higher than 20mcg/kg. Potency is typically expressed as the [A]50 - the concentration of the drug at which you reach 50% of the maximum effect, which depends on the therapeutic effect you're looking for. So in this example, the [A]50 of opiate A in mild pain scenarios can be 25mcg/kg versus opiate B's 7 mcg/kg while with severe pain, the [A]50 of opiate B can be above its LD50 and opiate A's can be 30 mcg/kg because from 25 to 30 mcg/kg opiate A has an exponential response curve. Like I said, it's very complicated and when measuring potency, you're actually measuring the effects of concentration on "arbitrary units," which could be something concrete like a chemo drug's effectiveness at killing cancer cells or something subjective like pain relief. When it's the latter, especially, potency has a very specific meaning in pharmacology that is very different from how the word is used colloquially.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sevenfive on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @05:06PM (#14807931)
This is just throwing around a lot of irrelevant details to obscure the fact that your original statement violates the dimensional analysis smell test -- I could make a shitty prodrug of LSD where the threshold dose is 1g instead of 50ug, but you wouldn't expect the 1g version to be less sensitive to a 25% change because it's "less potent." If you wanted to give examples of a drug where a 25% change is a big concern then warfarin or synthroid are much better examples than LSD. As it turns out, you know your shit, but it is still a sloppy statement.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by civilitty on Thursday July 20, 2017 @01:54PM (#14814795)
I tried explaining why you are wrong but I give up. You are incapable of accepting basic facts about biological systems and neuroscience that have been known for many decades, no matter how hard I try to explain it to you. Your "dimensional analysis smell test" is entirely idiotic in the face of those basic facts as accepted by the entire medical and biological research fields.

Please don't talk about pharmacology. Period. You don't know what you are talking about and someone might make the mistake of believing otherwise and do something dangerous.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by sevenfive on Saturday July 22, 2017 @04:48PM (#14829300)
This is what you said:

> There are a few compounds (like fentanyl or LSD) where the dosages are so small and the compound so potent that 10-25% makes a difference but for the majority, precision isn't that critical.

As in, typical dosages for fent or LSD are on the order of micrograms, so we expect them to be sensitive to a 25% change, for other drugs where a typical dose is measured in mg or grams, 25% is less likely to be a big deal, etc. This is the only way to interpret what you wrote, and it doesn't make sense. No such trend exists. None of the "basic facts" which you "explained" above (which I already knew) go anywhere near supporting this assertion.

Put another way, if you know the [A]50 you know one point on the dose-response curve, but in general that tells you nothing about the slope or shape of the curve near that point.

Judging from your comment history, you are not an actual doctor or biomed researcher, just a programmer in that industry. Which makes your teeth-gnashing about what an authority you are a tad less persuasive.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by compuguy on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:34PM (#14799384)
For the former (Amphetamines, or drugs derived from them), wouldn't the potency reduction of 25% be a big deal?
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by 13of40 on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:04PM (#14798694)
Any idea whether the chemicals they decompose into are ever more harmful than the original?
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by pacaro on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:26PM (#14798892)
Aspirin is a bad actor in this regard. It tends to revert back to salicylic acid, which is ok for some specific topical uses, but has potential to be pretty harmful orally. Sniffing an old bottle of aspirin will tell you whether they're still good enough
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by Magnap on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:36AM (#14805034)
For the record, what you're smelling for is acetic acid (vinegar). When aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) hydrolyzes into salicylic acid, the other product of that reactions is acetic acid, which is what's in vinegar.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by pacaro on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:19PM (#14806557)
Thanks! It's been 25 years since my last pharmacology class, the details are all getting a bit vague.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by AstralStorm on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:42AM (#14802187)
It's not that harmful if you know what you're dealing with. Have to be careful about liver toxicity and dosage but in a pinch it will work just fine as an antipyretic. It was used before aspirin has been invented.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by burkaman on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:05PM (#14798169)
From the study:

> Twelve of the 14 drug compounds tested (86%) were present in concentrations at least 90% of the labeled amounts, the generally recognized minimum acceptable potency. Three of these compounds were present at greater than 110% of the labeled content. Two compounds (aspirin and amphetamine) were present in amounts of less than 90% of labeled content. One compound (phenacetin) was present at greater than 90% of labeled amounts from 1 medication tested, but less than 90% in another medication that contained that drug.

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullart...

Sounds like maybe concentrations are allowed to vary a bit from the label at manufacturing time? Not sure, maybe someone who knows more can comment.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by bb611 on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:29PM (#14799810)
My brother-in-law works in pharma manufacturing, this stuff is really hard and it's basically impossible to create exactly identical pills, apparently in large part because the active ingredient is frequently <1% of the volume of the pill. The best they can do is control the range of dosage in pills, and there's variance in what that range is across drugs (i.e. some compounds can't be spray dried, can't be heated hot enough to make binders liquid, etc).

Depending on necessity and value they can typically engineer more precision, but it gets very expensive very fast.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by Florin_Andrei on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:16PM (#14798802)
> What kind of reporting is this? Anything less than 100% is not "as potent as when manufactured"

Relax, this is the real world, not a computer based series of 0s and 1s. Any such compound begins drifting off from the original specs as soon as it leaves the factory - and in a very real sense it's not exactly at 100% at any time post the moment of manufacture. The question is what kind of deviation can be tolerated.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by r00fus on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:48AM (#14802207)
Offtopic, but even the world of 1's and 0's is subject to real-world constraints - learned in my 90s computer hardware class as I spent weeks in summer after semester debugging why my "basic 8-bit processor" kept crashing after only a few hours of uptime: faulty silicon that periodically read median-voltage differentials cascaded eventually into bad instructions.

The world of logic is built on the shifting ground of reality. Only redundancy and checksums keep it from crashing down in compounded errors.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by TuringNYC on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:05PM (#14800738)
Well said. Another aspect: Having the option of a 90% effective drug vs a 100% effective drug you DONT have because you cannot afford.

There was a time in my life where our family lived dollar to dollar and skipped medical care due to cost. We would easily settle for 90% efficacy.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by AstralStorm on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:45AM (#14802195)
It is not even 90% effective. You could adjust the dosage in many cases.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by vilhelm_s on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:44PM (#14799016)
The paper discusses this, they say that 90%-110% is the usual range which is allowed when the drug is sold new. The FDA can set limits on a per-drug basis, and there are some where they require 95-105%, but 90-110% is the most common. (C.f. https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4228B1...)

Several of the drugs they tested were > 100%, so it seems reasonable to assume that a lot of this is due to variation in manufacturing rather than to the drug degrading.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by theandrewbailey on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:14PM (#14798244)
It appears that potent is properly used in this article:

producing powerful physical or chemical effects. ( http://www.dictionary.com/browse/potent )

chemically or medicinally effective ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/potent )

exerting or capable of exerting strong physiological or chemical effects ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Potent )

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by bpodgursky on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:44PM (#14798558)
I think it would introduce a huge amount of legal liability to guess that a drug would survive on a shelf for 10 years based on 6 months of testing. Especially if it's something critical like an EpiPen or cancer med.

At the end of the day, there's no really reliable way to speed up time, and it would be a waste of time to add 10 years to a drug development timeline just so you can leave it on a shelf for 10 years to test if it still works.

And yeah, we could probably go through and retroactively test some Ibuprofin, but also remember that these drugs are repackaged / reformulated slightly every couple years for various reasons, and without a lot of legal protections, no company will consider it worth it to guess about drug lifetime.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by dopamean on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:06PM (#14798174)
I wonder for certain drugs how much of a difference 98% potency is vs 100%. Surely that 2% must matter. Also, what does it mean to be less potent? It's still the same drug right? So does that just mean the pill contains less of it somehow?
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by qq66 on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:15PM (#14798249)
No drug where a 2% difference matters can be administered outside of a monitored hospital setting. There are too many variables that affect the drug uptake far more than 2%, such as body weight (100 pound person will have 3x the drug dosage of a 300 pound person), drug absorption (based on body chemistry, other food eaten, etc.) and the actual intake dosage itself (Eye drops, for example, can have a 500-fold variance in how much actually gets administered). That's why over-the-counter drugs have to have very high therapeutic index. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by TeMPOraL on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:36PM (#14798468)
> There are too many variables that affect the drug uptake far more than 2%, such as (...)

...or in case of tablets that come in 2x/4x the dose and you need to cut them in half/four pieces, the precision of your cut and amount of tablet dust that is lost.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by chillwaves on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @11:36PM (#14801870)
And the distribution of the active ingredient vs filler.

It's a lot of guess work.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by klipt on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:14PM (#14798247)
IANAD but it probably means some of the drug molecules have been rendered chemically inactive.

For many drugs a 2% difference is probably unnoticeable. Why are Ibuprofen pills 200mg? Because it's a nice round number that happens to work for many people. If I have a headache I often break the 200mg pill and only take half of it. It still does the job fine for me with fewer side effects.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by valuearb on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:39PM (#14799422)
I'm pretty sure for almost all drugs 20% doesn't matter. Think about it. I've never gotten an over the counter or prescription drug that was adjusted for my weight. The closest thing I can think of is painkillers (tylenol, etc) giving different dosages for children.

So if a 110lb wife gets the same dosage as a 200lb husband, how on earth would even a 20% difference in dosage amount make a big difference?

2% can only be done in fantasyland, like in a hospital you and the medicine are both closely weighed and administered.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by dragonwriter on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:45PM (#14799474)
> I've never gotten an over the counter or prescription drug that was adjusted for my weight.

How do you know that your doctor didn't take your weight into consideration when selecting the dose for a prescription medicine?

OTC drugs are often generally provided at a dose that should be safe for most adults, but may be significantly different in effectiveness based on weight.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by valuearb on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @06:45PM (#14800646)
Because my dosage has never varied, while my weight has and by more than 20%.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by accountyaccount on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:32PM (#14798420)
>I wonder for certain drugs how much of a difference 98% potency is vs 100%. Surely that 2% must matter.

Why is this a "surely"? On a scale of 100%, 2% is 2% because it's not hugely significant.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by Zigurd on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:14PM (#14798243)
You can get a rough idea of the required precision by checking if the dose is weight dependent. If it isn't, 2% won't matter.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by mikeash on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:36PM (#14798473)
And if 2% does matter, you'd better make sure you can measure both the dose and your weight to better than that accuracy.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by phinnaeus on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:13PM (#14798239)
Chemical reactions between air, mostly, and to a lesser extend between the drug and the pill substrate itself, I would imagine. I'm sure on such small size and long time scales the pill does simply ablate some of it's material.

Disclaimer: this is conjecture.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by thaumasiotes on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:21PM (#14799279)
> That seems to be the problem. There was a procedure in place to set expiration dates scientifically, and it was ignored for some reason, limiting the legal shelf life of even the most stable compounds to a few years.

To investigate how a drug breaks down over a ten-year timespan, you'd need to do at least one ten-year study of the drug. That seems difficult to justify.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by funkymike on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:25PM (#14799775)
I was thinking about this today after hearing a report on the radio this morning on this topic. Hospitals end up throwing away large amounts of drugs each year due to expiration, potentially hundreds of millions of dollars - although there is no real data currently.

It seems like it would be a good long term investment for a group of hospitals to partner together and begin a systematic study of the actual lifetimes of drugs. Instead of destroying all expired drugs they could send off samples to a lab for testing. They could even intentionally keep expired drugs in an off-limits area for 1, 2, 3 years past their expiration dates to gather more information. With enough hospitals participating they could gather a significant amount of data without any one hospital shouldering all of the burden. Once there is enough evidence that a particular drug is still potent the FDA could extend the allowed shelf life. This would save the hospitals money over time since they could stop paying to dispose of and replace as many expired drugs. It would also provide a general benefit to the public since people would have solid scientific evidence for the actual effective lifetime for particular drugs. This would include poison control centers, the hospitals themselves, etc. that would be able to better handle cases where someone has already taken an expired drug.

Of course an alternate way would be to require the drug companies to accept returns from hospitals of small amounts of expired drugs that they would then be responsible for testing and providing the data to the FDA. Limiting the returns to large institutions would keep the costs down (reducing push-back from the pharma companies).

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by dragonwriter on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @03:52PM (#14799514)
> Anything less than 100% is not "as potent as when manufactured",

Since the % is of labelled strength, it might still be “as potent as when manufactured” if the drug was at less than labelled strength when manufactured, though that, too, would be a serious issue.

Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by barrkel on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @01:58PM (#14798656)
I think you're confusing percentage of concentration with the threshold of potency.
Re:The Myth of Drug Expiration Dates by pizzetta on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @02:08PM (#14798731)
Don't Drug MFGs know this and are allowed to "donate" to weak economies.