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Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by uses on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:38PM (#14640162)
I totally understand the whole "McMansions are bad architecture" thing...

However, something about it really bothers me. There was an episode of 99% Invisible where the guest was talking about their McMansions blog and how it makes fun of these Horrid dwellings. The whole thing stank of classist elitism. The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build large houses, and of course they're applying their Bad Taste that's neither Genuine nor Authentic. They don't know about the traditions of Fine Architecture so of course they were doing it all wrong...how embarrassing for them!

Edit: It sounds like a lot of the way I interpreted this could come from my background as someone who's transitioned from lower working class to solidly middle class, and so I'm applying that defensively even though (thank God!) I don't live in an Embarassing McMansion. In fact I'm now considering the blog as more of an educational campaign where an expert in the field is railing against problematic and widespread trends in that field. It has less to do with transitions between class and more to do with the decline of an important field of engineering and design as something that people value. I think the word McMansions itself is a bit of a disservice to the purpose of the blog, with its "slobs vs snobs" / Beverly Hillbillies connotations.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by rayiner on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:03PM (#14640338)
I grew up in Northern Virginia among these McMansions, and frankly I don't buy the elitism angle. These folks have a lot of money (top 5% at least, if not even top 1%) and are among the best educated in the country. And these aren't dwellings driven by the need for functionality. It's not like people here have big families they need to house (empty nesters can afford them more readily than people with families!). They're designed, instead, to be conspicuous consumption. If you can't ridicule them for lacking taste you're basically saying that taste doesn't exist and everything is always subjective.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by Declanomous on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:33PM (#14640574)
Additionally, McMansions are often not very functional. As much as I would appreciate more space, I've been in enough McMansions to appreciate how important a well-built and well-designed house is. Completely ignoring scale doesn't just make McMansions aesthetically unpleasant, it them uncomfortable or completely unsuitable for most of the things we use a house for as well.

If you spend any time in a McMansion, you will start to notice little things that just feel wrong. The fridge will be placed on the complete opposite side of the room from the island with the stove in it. Closets will be placed in the middle of a wall, creating a room where the bed cannot be placed against any walls. Rooms will be designed without any sense of a traffic pattern, and you'll find that it's impossible to place a couch in your den because it's basically a 30 foot wide hallway because of where the doors are. The dishwasher will block access to the sink when open.

A lot of these things are probably unnoticeable to the owners because of their lifestyle. I know friends whose parents have literally never used a single pot or pan that they own.

Around me McMansions seem to stay on the market forever compared to houses of a similar price. A ton were built where I grew up in the 2002-2007 time frame, and nobody wants to live in them. They neglect literally everything that makes a house a home for the sake of having as much space as possible. I would be surprised if the majority of them make it 50 years without being torn down.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by cr0sh on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:20PM (#14640857)
> The fridge will be placed on the complete opposite side of the room from the island with the stove in it.

This is actually proper kitchen design (the island being in the way would be a problem, though). It's called a "kitchen triangle" and the proper shape and size of it determines how efficient a kitchen is (the third vertex is the sink).

A properly sized and shaped kitchen triangle can help turn cooking into a very efficient experience. One too large, or with an island in the way, or not correctly shaped (or not even a triangle) can make it a horrible place to cook in.

I will grant, though, that in some cases the kitchen doesn't ever serve a practical purpose, but instead serves as an interior "conspicuous consumption" focal point. Easiest way to tell if this is the case is how well used the appliances are; if they look showroom shiny with nary a splatter, dent, scratch, etc on them - you are likely not looking at a working kitchen.

Finally - all of this is moot if the person cooking is skilled enough. My wife has cooked highly commented meals for hundreds of people out of a kitchen smaller than some McMansion's walk-in pantry, using a stove that only had "on" and "off" (where "on" was set at 500 degrees F), and a work surface smaller than her cutting board (this was a "commercial" kitchen at one of here former employers who had a strange sense of what was the best things to spend money on - maintenance was not one of them).

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by redm on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:32PM (#14641906)
Kitchens are undeniably more important today than in the past. Their increased and expanded uses have driven larger sizes. As you suggest, too larger of a triangle is inefficient. To deal with this, the concept of Kitchen Zones has been taking root as an alternative. A zone for preparation, cooking, cleanup, entertaining, etc. [1] [2]

[1] https://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/16934736/list/kitchen-evolut...

[2] http://lifehacker.com/optimize-your-kitchen-layout-with-work...

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by madhadron on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:29PM (#14642375)
I hadn't run across zones before. I've always set up cooking areas for the flows of material. Ingredients come from storage, are prepped, put into holding, cooked, plated, served, and the dishes and remains returned afterwards. The kitchen triangle serves a wide range of flows for a single cook, thus its popularity. When you have multiple cooks, it changes.

If you have a lot of different things being cooked, you want the brigade system with individuals' prep, holding, and cooking areas distinct and the flow across their space minimized. That includes little things like having squeeze bottles of water at their station so they don't have to access a sink to add liquid to something and all the dishes they need to plate what they're working on. If you have labor intensive assembly of a few things, you want assembly line, and then it's more important to have lots of contiguous, double deep counter space so you can stage materials for each step and slide things along. For a brigade system, you usually have an aisle wide enough for someone to carry a hot pan past you while you're working without having to worry about bumping into you if you don't suddenly lurch backwards. Oh, and somewhere to step out of the zone where you have to be on alert for things like that. I've seen that both with one sided prep areas with eight feet or so to the other wall so you can physically back out of the line, or a four foot aisle and walking down the line to the storage freezers (which people aren't going into constantly once everything is prepped) to step away.

In either case, finished materials need to be staged to be removed from the kitchen, and a parallel path needs to bring dishes back without getting in path of the cooks.

But back to the primary topic, most of the kitchens I've seen in houses simply are not functional. When we were house hunting a few years ago I would say half the kitchens were laid out where, due to other constraints of the house, they could not be remodeled into something that wasn't a pain to work in. It's fine to have to cook in some place that's a pain once in a while, but in your own home? Yeesh.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by Splines on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:38PM (#14642401)
Getting OT, but if you want a hilarious game simulation of dealing with poor kitchen design with multiple cooks (with a strong heaping of the brigade system), check out the game "Overcooked".
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by cyclist89 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:29AM (#14642586)
Boyfriend and I just beat Overcooked yesterday (three stars on every single level!), so lots of the kitchen design mistakes are still fresh in my mind (worst level imo was the kitchen with floating icebergs separating it into 3, mostly ice-covered partitions). Awesome game though :)
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by ChuckMcM on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:11PM (#14640809)
This is where I fall on the spectrum. I can understand someone wanting their house to evoke some notion of grandeur but really if it isn't functional the effort feels wasted to me.

That said, I have always felt ridiculing other people's taste to be fairly mean. And while there are/were some solid points in the blog about design and things that 'look right' and things that 'look wrong' it could often come across fairly harshly. And even if you disclaim that with "I'm talking about the house, not you." since the owner likes the house enough to own it and not change it, it really is kind of about them too.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by toufka on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:35PM (#14640977)
All the more reason the blog is so useful. I'd hate to think with all the modern technology around us that the house I live in 'just doesn't feel right' because it was not built employing the past dozen millennia-worth of architectural knowledge at our social disposal. Just because I am not an architect doesn't mean I want to be swindled into an unknowingly unpleasant home. Just because I'm not an architect of CPUs doesn't mean I'd be willing to have a computer run poorly given my investment in a new computer - even if I like the processor's name and it has lots of gigahertzes.

No one finds the tech reviewer 'mean' for saying the processor is slower at particular benchmarks according to our present technological measure. Why is this so different - if in fact what is being put to the measure is a human technology and not simply taste. And even then, many 'tasteful' architectural features only exist because of some function - and missing that function they are actually only taste.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by emodendroket on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:02PM (#14641155)
A lot of time on that blog was spent mocking purely aesthetic features of the homes and I feel like if you like the aesthetic then there is not much else to consider.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by dnautics on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:59PM (#14641753)
But I don't think even people who acquire or live in those homes like the esthetic. Remember,mcmansions wind up the way they are because they're ticking off a list of 'things that algorithmically increase the home value'. That's what creates a sense of Inbalance and forces the house to contort into strange forms.

Most denizens, I suspect, probably feel that something is not quite right but couldn't put their finger on it quickly enough to stop their purchase or possibly more cynically, don't care until they flip the house.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by emodendroket on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:36PM (#14641924)
Maybe so. I dunno. I don't feel like I have a clear sense of what distinguishes a "McMansion" from "recently-built house in a more or less modern style."
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by eropple on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:54PM (#14641993)
This is a pretty good architectural round-up: https://www.homestratosphere.com/home-architecture-styles/

If you look at these, you'll notice something: they're by and large consistent within themselves and the author of that piece is often (and I say "often" because it's a pop piece) able to tell you what aspects the architects of that style are focusing on. Any given style of architecture might not be your thing, but I bet that you can see commonalities of design within a given design family. In particular it's worth looking at horizontal lines (stories of a house); it's sometimes fashionable for different stories of a house to differ stylistically, but do different parts of the house, including the roof, differ notably on that horizontal line?

One of the deadest giveaways as to whether you can reasonably call it a "McMansion": look at the windows. Some of the houses on McMansion Hell have six different styles of window on the same story of the house. Sometimes they just look plastered on, like the house was built and somebody said "let's add a window there". It's not just bad taste, which has a lot of variance--it's also incoherence, and while there is some taste in evaluating whether various elements that a design adopts cohere together, there's a reasonable-person test there that doesn't really exist for like-it/don't-like-it. McMansions like the ones under discussion are incoherent because they're not designed for coherence, they're designed to tick off boxes in a "How To Increase The Value Of The Thing You're Flipping" checklist. (Few McMansions are built by the owners.) They're zits on a good neighborhood.

Ever heard the adage, learn the rules in order to break them? An analogy that I like is with regard to painting: a cubist Picasso and realist Courbet are both technically masterful and appealing works, but if you mash them together the point becomes that they don't work together at all. And that can be fine--maybe the point of what you're doing is to highlight that discordance--but if you do it without understanding how and why they work, you're just creating a trainwreck.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by DonHopkins on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:50PM (#14642441)
It looks like people are 3D printing houses [1] their children designed in The Sims [2].

[1] https://www.engadget.com/2017/03/07/apis-cor-3d-printed-hous...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJI5EajBNEs

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by ryandrake on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:01PM (#14642028)
While there may not be One True Definition, and there's room to agree and disagree, there are attributes people probably could agree are tasteless and help qualify a house as a McMansion:

* No clear architectural style, or a haphazard/incoherent mix of styles

* Brick or stone facades in front, and cheap siding on the (less visible) sides

* Non-structural arches and columns

* Oddly placed/sized windows

* Multiple roof lines, chimneys and dormers

To the extent that a "Recently built house in a more or less modern style" incorporates these elements, it can be considered more or less a McMansion.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by trentmb on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:03AM (#14642495)
> * No clear architectural style, or a haphazard/incoherent mix of styles

Isn't that just a new style?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by fsloth on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @04:52AM (#14643473)
Uh, no, it's noise synthesis.

The point is, with the effort and money spent, the houses are not even necessarily nice to live in when the designer just adds a hodge podge of features. The critique may sound elitist but the actual defects are concrete once you notice them and not just 'accept and adapt' to them.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by emodendroket on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:38AM (#14643992)
The first bullet point, anyway, is also typical of any house that's been around a while.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by dagw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:16AM (#14644274)
There is a fundamental difference between a 17th century house with wing added in the 19th century and garage added in the 20th century, and a 21st century house trying to mimic that look.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by taneq on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:35AM (#14642608)
> Most denizens, I suspect, probably feel that something is not quite right

Do they, though? Maybe they're completely happy with their houses and we're just assuming the grapes are sour.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by sangnoir on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:07AM (#14644206)
> A lot of time on that blog was spent mocking purely aesthetic features of the homes

A lot of time on HN is spent mocking "gamer aesthetic" on hardware the commenter would have otherwise actually liked to use. Garish LED-lighting, bulky-looks and oblique angles aren't my thing either, but HN loves to complain about McKeyboards, McHeadphones, McLaptops and McCases.

"Gamer aesthetic" and "McMansion aethetic" are valid phenomena and people have the right to critique those tastes without invoking classism, despite the sense of superiorioty occasionally found in the consumers of both.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mrep on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:43PM (#14641668)
I totally agree. That website came off to me as very pretentious in that everyone should adhere to her personal taste when I actually liked how some of the homes looked.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mschaef on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:21PM (#14641248)
> Why is this so different

Benchmarks are at least attempting to be objective.

Also, there's a difference between mocking a company's product and mocking a house that is 1) an individual's home 2) their largest investment and 3) is likely, these days, to represent a significant financial liability.

I don't like McMansions much myself, but I can absolutely sympathize with people that want an affordable way to get more space for their family, etc. (Or people that have been sucked by the hedonic treadmill into a vortex of debt, high utility payments, etc.) They're probably suffering enough already.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by prklmn on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:10PM (#14641509)
> an affordable way to get more space for their family

Did you see the asking prices before the content was taken down? I don't remember any of the houses being affordable in any regard

> vortex of debt

It takes a special person to sympathize with someone living so far beyond their means that they take a $1 million (my average price estimate from the website) mortgage that they can't actually afford

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mschaef on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:14PM (#14642088)
> It takes a special person to sympathize with someone living so far beyond their means that they take a $1 million (my average price estimate from the website) mortgage that they can't actually afford

They'll suffer enough without help. The world is difficult enough without pushing people down because it's funny or a way to 'improve the quality of architecture' or whatever.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by dagw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:39AM (#14643224)
I can absolutely sympathize with people that want an affordable way to get more space for their family

But a McMansion will almost always cost you more than a more 'modest' house offering the same amount of space. Also that house will almost certainly be better constructed.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mschaef on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @10:23AM (#14645623)
> But a McMansion will almost always cost you more than a more 'modest' house offering the same amount of space.

Lots of variables there. Construction is usually estimated in terms of price per square feet, and property values can represent a substantial fraction of the total price of the house. A 'modest', 'old' house in a good location can be vastly more expensive than a 'McMansion' built out in the suburbs or something. Also McMansions are usually built where land is cheaper, so more space.

For families with children, there is also the cost of education to consider. There are scenarios where avoiding the need to use a private school to educate your children can completely pay the cost of a home in the suburbs. (Even considering property taxes). The house can effectively burn to the ground when you're done educating your kids and you'd wind up net money ahead compared to where you might have been with a more modest house and private schooling.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by majewsky on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:58AM (#14643752)
It's a tradeoff. Clearly pointing out the issues might educate the next generation of customers how to design a better house at a lower price point.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by Hydraulix989 on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:46PM (#14641962)
Are you affiliated with that site? Only reason I ask is because of the McM in your name?
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by PhasmaFelis on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:46PM (#14642211)
Check the profile. His last name is McManis.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by DonHopkins on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:59PM (#14642484)
I remember him from Sun, where he was both a great engineer and a great architect. Looks like he's moved on from TCP/IP to HVAC. ;)

http://www.sunengineering.net/PROJECTS/Residential/TheBackSh...

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by ChuckMcM on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:16AM (#14642529)
Ok, that is just hilarious! Of course that Chuck comes from the 'McManus' side of the family not the 'McManis' side.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by DonHopkins on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:36AM (#14642613)
When I saw "high efficiency media filters" I was sure it must be your work.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by SimonPStevens on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:45AM (#14644041)
These problems are not unique to McMansions.

I live in a normal size house and opening the dishwasher blocks access to the sink, the two cupboards under the sink and two cupboards above.

The lounge is long and due to the door placement there is no sensible layout for the sofa that wouldn't have people sitting a long way from each other (in the end we used the furniture to effectively split the room into two smaller areas which were more sensibly shaped)

My previous house had a cupboard too close to a central breakfast bar that meant you couldn't access the cupboard if someone was sitting at the breakfast bar.

Bad room layout is everywhere.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by tvanantwerp on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:23PM (#14641578)
I'm living in NoVa in a zip code in the top 2% of wealth in the US. (Sadly, I'm not personally in the top 2%, I just rent an apartment here.) There are McMansions all around, and they are hideous. There's no sense of design or symmetry. And this is no aspirational neighborhood--if you're buying one of these houses, you are already at the top of society.

As much as I hate looking at these McMansions, they do give me one consolation: money can't buy taste. Maybe I'll never afford that monstrosity you call a house, but at least I've got the sense to not want it in the first place.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by taway_1212 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:19AM (#14643867)
> As much as I hate looking at these McMansions, they do give me one consolation: money can't buy taste. Maybe I'll never afford that monstrosity you call a house, but at least I've got the sense to not want it in the first place.

My theory is that people who can afford such houses are usually very busy with their jobs or companies and don't have the time or mindspace to think about what kind of place they'd really like to live in, not to mention "details" like aesthetics. They're in perpetual hurry and thus they buy a house like the handle a project at their company.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by magic_beans on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @11:00AM (#14645974)
You're assuming these people are engineers... Some people are just plain tacky.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by aidenn0 on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:17PM (#14640467)
Most of the McMansions around where I grew up in Northern Va. were fairly cookie cutter. Their lack of architectural unity seemed to be more of "We have X types of garages, Y types of base floorplans and Z types of entryways and so we'll just iterate on them for the whole neighborhood"

This combined with the rapidly rising real-estate costs meant the builders threw in some of the architectural versions of Hofmeister kinks[1] to make them look more luxurious which (IMO) only made them look worse.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeister_kink

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mysterypie on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:22AM (#14643149)
> the architectural versions of Hofmeister kinks

I'm going to add this to my list of words for names of things that you never expected to have names. From aglet[1] to uvula[2], and now Hofmeister kink.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglet

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatine_uvula

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mywittyname on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:43PM (#14648697)
Maybe you'll appreciate Bangle Butt: the (usually chrome) strip across the trunk that modern cars have. It's named after the designer of the 2001 BMW 7 Series, Chris Bangle.

The design element was criticized so incessantly that Bangle eventually stepped down. But it turns out Bangle was just ahead of his time as most modern large sedans employ the eponymous chrome strip on their rear. The Accord, Camry, Mazda6, and Fusion all have the feature on their latest models.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by skumpe on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @04:05PM (#14648885)
While agree the Bangle Butt looks horrible, this does not refer to a chrome strip on the trunk of a car, it refers to the shape/proportions of the trunk and rear fenders/quarter panels on a specific set of BMW's: http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/01/21/bangle-butt/
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by lgas on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:10PM (#14641194)
> If you can't ridicule them for lacking taste you're basically saying that taste doesn't exist and everything is always subjective.

I don't know about the rest, but taste is definitely subjective.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by kasey_junk on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:48PM (#14641402)
Subjective and arbitrary are not the same in this context. If it was arbitrary then you could randomize the outputs and see no correlation between experts and non-experts on determining what was tasteful and what wasn't. Thats not true of 'taste'. Taste is subjective in that it is highly influenced by society/culture/history but experts agree on what is tasteful and what isn't within those bounds.

Now preference is arbitrary and subjective. If you just like something even if its not tasteful that is fine, even for experts and I don't know that it is problematic in buying a house that isn't tasteful other than it is a signal that experts were skipped in certain design phases of the project.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by subway on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:18PM (#14641561)
Wealth and elitism don't always go hand in hand. Some of the most elitist folks I know are dirt poor.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by peacetreefrog on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:56PM (#14640720)
"If you can't ridicule them for lacking taste you're basically saying that taste doesn't exist and everything is always subjective."

Or perhaps you're against ridicule in general. Why is it your problem what sort of houses other people live in?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by defen on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:29PM (#14641285)
If they're living on the other side of the country, I don't care. If they're knocking down perfectly fine, correctly-scaled houses in my neighborhood in order to build huge monstrosities that parasitize the aesthetic niceness of the neighborhood that is due in large part to correctly-sized and shaped houses then I get upset.

Example happening in my town: builder buys a normal-sized house on a large lot for $800K. Knocks the house down, subdivides the lot, and builds two bigger houses on each lot, and sells each for $950K. If anyone complains, they get written off as a NIMBY who is opposed to density.

Due to local regulations, you need more driveway curb cuts, so the tree-lined street starts to become less tree-lined. You now have two 3-story townhouse style homes right up next to mid-century ranches or bungalows or Cape Cods and it looks garish.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by closeparen on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:07PM (#14642288)
... how is that not being a NIMBY? You want fewer homes in your neighborhood (1 vs. 2 on a lot), on aesthetic grounds.

What else did you think anyone meant by NIMBY?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by defen on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @02:38AM (#14642973)
I live in a 150-unit apartment building that houses about 300 people, on the edge of the neighborhood. I have no financial stake in the outcome either way, I just don't want to see something beautiful destroyed. I would much rather they put up another 150-unit building than tear down 75-100 houses to achieve the same outcome.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by closeparen on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @10:15PM (#14651244)
Okay, fair.

Usually it seems that people who are moderately opposed to two houses on a lot would be rioting in the streets over a 150-unit building. But I agree, it's a better way to achieve the same outcome.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by dionidium on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:05PM (#14648255)
What do you think NIMBY means?

The term originated to describe opposition to the placement of unpleasant developments that wouldn't be objected to if placed elsewhere (think landfill or meat-packing plant).

It now roughly refers to anyone opposing greater density in urban environments. (This is different enough, already, that we should probably coin a new word for it.)

You're using it to mean -- what? -- opposition to any development on aesthetic grounds?

We're pretty far afield, now.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by closeparen on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @10:42PM (#14651346)
Opposing any level of density or capacity beyond single family houses with low lot coverage in your (urban/inner suburban) neighborhood is straight down the middle of any definition of NIMBYism I've seen in recent use. Particularly when you live somewhere that normal-sized houses go for $800k (!).

I'd also (tacitly) oppose large single family homes replacing small single family homes, but that's because I'd prefer to see even larger apartment/condo buildings. When each project is so politically expensive, it's important to get as many new units as possible out of each one. (Looks like defen is on board with this idea).

When two single family homes on a lot is encroaching on a community's threshold for permissible scale, usually a large apartment building would be out of the question. So I'll take what I can get.

At a 2:1 or better multiple (new units : demolished units), these conversions might be decent. You could increase a city's housing stock 2x that way, and it'd be a less drastic change than dozens-hundreds of skyscrapers needed for the same effect.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by jessaustin on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:33AM (#14642598)
HN has featured many more extreme examples of NIMBYism.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by SmellyGeekBoy on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:52AM (#14643264)
> If they're living on the other side of the country, I don't care.

Is this not the textbook definition of NIMBYism?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by randcraw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:01AM (#14643033)
Sounds like Houston, in particular, Rice University Village.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by cat199 on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:08PM (#14640796)
>> everything is always subjective

=

> Why is it your problem what sort of houses other people live in?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by sevensor on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @08:54AM (#14644896)
> They're designed, instead, to be conspicuous consumption

This is the key point in the thread. The legitimate criticism of McMansions isn't about their architecture per se, it's about the owners. I'd go so far as to say that the bad architecture is deliberate -- its senseless variation and useless ornaments call attention to the house. This is crass ostentation and nothing more. It says, "look at me, I can afford a big ugly house (and you can't)."

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by HillaryBriss on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:42PM (#14641360)
yeah. i especially agree with the fact that the people who buy these huge homes don't have big families. their families are the same size as the folks down the street in a house with 1/3 the square footage.

in Los Angeles, city government keeps on approving these extremely large homes without even requiring rooftop solar panels -- houses with not just one but TWO air conditioning condensers -- because ... uh ... wait, why?

because they save energy per capita? no.

because they will house more people than the single family homes they replaced? no.

because large homes are basically high capacity production assets which empower the city to be even more globally competitive (like a state-of-the-art rechargeable-battery factory, a digital movie production facility, a high-tech startup office, etc)? no.

AFAIK, we just have a distorted capital market. Federal government policies support home loans and the ownership society. there's also a local shortage of other viable ways for investors to make a quick $500,000 profit.

also, it's a nice boost to the property tax base.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by andrewmutz on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:22PM (#14640874)
> taste doesn't exist and everything is always subjective.

Surely you would agree that taste is subjective...

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by banku_brougham on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:03PM (#14641480)
this right on point, IMO
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by pwthornton on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:26PM (#14640530)
As engineers and designers, we should side with her on this one. The core conceit of McMansion Hell is that these are this homes built without experts, particularly architects (but any kind of designer is absent from them). These are often big, expensive homes, where the builder and the buyer thought they didn't need the help of an actual professional.

This isn't just an American thing, but it seems particularly bad here. People spend a lot of money on homes, but try to cheap out as much as possible in expertise. No architects, no designers for the interior, no landscape architects for the yard (many greenfield McMansions are delivered with zero landscaping!) and even sometimes skipping electricians and other skilled tradesmen for upgrades and additions.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by sseveran on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:59PM (#14640741)
Post college I had a mentor that was in the real estate development business, not for McMansions, first time homebuyer and some developments in the next price point up (<$500K) in a major metro so I got to learn quite a lot about how this works. I am no fan of McMansions although my primary complaint is that many of them are just built so close together, not that their aesthetics are particularly bad. The style of home that I would build is not typically built by major developers like KHov or whoever.

Houses are a bit like software. Builders will typically have base plans and then depending on the price point a varying number of customizations that can be applied. The more expensive the home the more customizations offered. A really great thing about people buying McMansions is that they are all experts and know far more about building a house than someone who literally owns a company that does this. So people who sell to this demographic let the customer do a lot of driving especially on the interior. Builders can also mark up these customizations to increase margins. So really I guess bottom line here is that people want these houses. The architecture (or lack there of depending on your view) is carefully researched to appeal to people with the right amount of money to spend. Having watched this process from the builder side there seems to be little to be gained from trying to for design on to the customers as they don't want it.

I think it's a bit forward for criticizing the purchasers of these homes for the aesthetics alone. They wanted these homes and there is going to be someone who will provide it. I am yet to find modern art that I can appreciate but I am happy that others can. I love classical sculpture which I am sure someone would have a bit to say about if I stuck one in my house. If someone wants a non-functioning balcony (this I just cannot understand) to each his own. One nice feature these homes have is that they are all built together in large developments where I will rarely ever venture.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by ghaff on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:19PM (#14640856)
>I am no fan of McMansions although my primary complaint is that many of them are just built so close together, not that their aesthetics are particularly bad.

I guess I'd argue that the aesthetics are bad for the reasons the blog in question points out--lack of unifying design principles, etc. At least to my eye.

However, I also agree with your point about space. This may not be popular with the density crowd, but a few acres with lots of trees and other landscaping hide a lot of architectural faults. Cram big houses assembled from random architectural styles on a half acre with just a garden or two and it's not attractive.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by exelius on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:15PM (#14641222)
I think you bring up an important point: there is a class of homebuyer who is both wealthy (or at least high-income) and a control freak. McMansion (or more specifically McMansion builders) target this demographic with empty shells, then let the homebuyer customize to their heart's content (even if said customization is stupid).

For some, it appears that the control is an important purchase consideration. The bank is the only one taking the risk.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by zip1234 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @08:57AM (#14644916)
A lot of times such houses are built by large homebuilder companies. They employ architects and landscape designers. Why does it still seem like things are in such poor taste? Maybe it's because that's not what people want to buy.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by nothis on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:21PM (#14640863)
>The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build large houses, and of course they're applying their Bad Taste that's neither Genuine nor Authentic. They don't know about the traditions of Fine Architecture so of course they were doing it all wrong...how embarrassing for them!

Leave out the "wrong type of people" part and you got pretty much every criticism ever. Bad movies, bad books, bad food...

The thing is, I don't believe McMansion owners need our pity. They're clearly well off and not afraid to show it. Speaking of "elitism", I'm pretty sure the author of the McMansion blog is poorer than any of the reviewed houses' owners. It's not like we're making fun of homeless people for having dirty clothes. Plus those damn houses are visible, they're part of our environment and not something you do for fun in your hobby room.

I can't get myself to feel sorry, even though I can understand a general opposition against "calling out" private individuals so publicly on the internet.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by nickrivadeneira on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:20PM (#14641245)
Poorer people can still be elitist. Expressing cultural or artistic superiority is a form of elitism that doesn't require wealth.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by bchalala on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:10AM (#14643817)
Yeah, poorer people can be elitist, but that doesn't necessarily make what McMansionHell is doing some elitist sort of enterprise. It's a guy/girl pointing out architectural flaws in buildings and discussing why they are flaws. It's as elitist as movie critic talking about a new film, and in that sense it's ridiculous that the site is being pulled down over this. You aren't entitled to have somebody agree with your taste.

Edit: You're right, nobody is arguing that it was pulled down for that and I didn't realize until I read a bit more. My point about entitlement still stands though.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by platinumrad on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:55AM (#14644115)
I don't think very many (or any) people are defending Zillow's attempt to take down the site. Most of the critiques expressed in this thread specifically address the content of the site itself not whether it should stay up.

One big difference between McMansion Hell and media criticism in general is that the former relies much more on appeals to canon, e.g. "You should never put one of /these/ next to one of /these/."

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by softawre on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @02:25PM (#14656855)
> It's not like we're making fun of homeless people for having dirty clothes.

Ok.

> Plus those damn houses are visible

Like the dirty homeless people? At least with homes they are on private property.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by chadgeidel on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:44PM (#14640206)
The guest on that article and the blog author are the same person.

How can you "understand that mcmansions are bad architecture" and also say "the whole thing stank of classist elitism"? The blog points fun at clearly bad buildings. Fake columns, unnecessary rooms, poor placement of re-used furniture, etc. Sarcasm is funny. The blog is sarcastic in nature. What's wrong with that?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by KaiserPro on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:37PM (#14640598)
to add, the blog doesn't just go: "its horrid"

it goes: "its horrid because its trying to copy this style, here is what this style is supposed to be, and this is why it fails to look right here"

Its basically a wonderfully funny incident post mortem.

I wish my post mortems were so funny and illuminating

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by criddell on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:54PM (#14640708)
Maybe it will just take time for some of these design choices to be appreciated?

Is a fake column on a house any different than fins on a 1959 Cadillac?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by chadgeidel on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:01PM (#14640752)
It's a good question. I'm not well-versed enough in design theory to answer, but I'll offer my opinion anyway. :-)

The fins on a 1959 Cadillac are well-integrated (design-wise) on the car. It's a theme of the era and the car was designed from the ground up to look like a jet or a rocket.

The design elements in a McMansion are not well integrated (see the posts on the site) - they are added on as an afterthought because "nice houses have these things". There is no coherent style or design.

If I had to guess, I would say the "gaudy" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_Gaud%C3%AD !!) design of a Cadillac will be well-regarded for at least 100 years. I don't think the design of McMansions will ever be well-regarded.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by InspiredIdiot on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:08PM (#14641497)
It doesn't appear that Antoni Gaudí had anything to do with the etymology of the term "gaudy" as it was in use hundreds of years before he was born.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gaudy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaudy

I couldn't help looking it up because the idea that a single artist could stand out so much to be singularly associated with that term was tempting. I expect that is why such a false association persists.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by magic_beans on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @11:18AM (#14646170)
Gaudí may not have been the origin of the word "gaudy", but perhaps he was an example of nominative determinism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism

;)

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by chadgeidel on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:30PM (#14641899)
Oh! Thank you for that!
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by cat199 on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:12PM (#14640814)
Also:

50's US cars were also exceedingly well built using high quality materials and mostly/nearly by hand..

which goes against the 'cheap / phony materials' ethos critiqued in mcmansions..

that said, plenty of people I'm sure critiqued the 'chintzy' 50s asthetic and increased use of plastics in the day..

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by randcraw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:20AM (#14643141)
I'm no designer either, but I think Caddy fins were great examples of baroque flourishes -- excessive extensions to past design motifs that give a heightened sense of motion or flow or accent. Future designs can't build on such flourishes. They were stylistic endpoints, like the accents in Art Deco, but often use a coherent set of design principles within a time period and thus create a harmony of their own.

But McMansions lack common flourishes or motifs. They share only size and a brutal ostentation intended only to say, "I have money, and taste be damned."

The best exposition I know on the suburban blight AKA McMansions is "The Geography of Nowhere" by James Howard Kunstler.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by criddell on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @09:39AM (#14645248)
I'm in the Stewart Brand camp that is pretty much built on the taste be damned ethos. The idea of a McMansion appeals to me because I'm not afraid to move walls and plumbing to make the space exactly what I want.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by siidooloo on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:16PM (#14640831)
McMansions more resemble the car Homer Simpson designed than a 1959 Cadillac. One of the main distinguishing features of a McMansion is that it doesn't have any unified design aesthetic. They just glom a bunch of random things together.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by falsedan on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:43PM (#14640635)
> The blog is sarcastic in nature. What's wrong with that?

It's punching down: the builders/purchasers didn't know/care how to make architecturally sophisticated dwellings, which is no reason to make fun of someone. The commentary applies equally-well to pre-fab apartments, shotgun shacks, suburban housing developments, etc. It's poorly-targeted.

It's also elitist a.f. "Look at these gauche bungalows, drawn up no doubt by someone who never heard of Falling Water, let alone ever showered"

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by careersuicide on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:55PM (#14640716)
> It's punching down

I generally reject the premise of punching up versus down; but McMansion Hell is emphatically not punching down. Anyone who can afford a $1 million 5000+ square foot house deserves very little sympathy for their bad taste.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by averagewall on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:30PM (#14640939)
It's OK to be mean to people because of the socioeconomic class they belong to? They're all humans just like each other. I bet half of poorer people would opt to design their own house in an ugly way if they had the chance. They just don't have the chance. Some of them certainly try hard though: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/543809723727647414
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by careersuicide on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:24PM (#14641262)
> It's OK to be mean to people because of the socioeconomic class they belong to?

No, see the first sentence where I say I generally reject the premise of the whole concept of punching up and down (I think there is such a thing as bad tactics). My point was, however, that if you're gonna use that framework, perhaps one percenters buying ugly houses aren't exactly a sympathetic group. Even more importantly, the OP misses the entire reason punching up and down is a thing. Being rich enough to afford a McMansion means you're pretty much guaranteed to be highly privileged. It'd be pretty silly, if you're going to talk about punching up and down, to believe that ridiculing the rich with bad taste is anything but a big ol' shoryuken. I mean, even I, someone who thinks you should treat people kindly regardless of background, roll my eyes at the thought of McMansion owners feelings being hurt because people think their houses are ugly.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by Applejinx on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:41PM (#14642178)
Also, the blogger skewers the exact pretensions of this class with hilarious skill and deftness. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some very motel-like painting or elaborately framed print up there captioned 'An Art', and that always makes me grin: it criticises a very real and troubling class tendency to commoditize and stupefy art, and to see this tendency called out for mockery pleases me.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by falsedan on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:57PM (#14641118)
Thanks for making my point, but thank you to the undeservingly moneyed lumpenproles who spend their wealth on the wrong things and also in a way which deserves ridicule.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mcphage on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:07PM (#14641791)
Your point was that it's punching down. Careersuicide [correctly] responded that it's not punching down, it's punching up. Tell me again how that make your point?
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by falsedan on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @09:11AM (#14695642)
> Anyone who can afford a $1 million 5000+ square foot house deserves very little sympathy for their bad taste

You are disparaging people who are not as knowledgeable as you (elitist); they didn't design the homes, nor approve the development, nor set the zoning. Their casus belli is that they are wealthier than you, and unaware that they're buying the wrong kind of house.

Making fun of rich people for buying stupid stuff isn't punching up; it's making fun of their ignorance, regardless of whether they have more or less money than you, and can be equally applied to poor people making poor purchasing decisions.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by chadgeidel on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:53PM (#14640699)
Builders and purchasers don't care about architecturally sophisticated dwellings because they are too busy "keeping up with the Joneses".

I disagree with your assessment of elitism. If every "critique" is "elitism" then I really don't know how to respond.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by falsedan on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:52PM (#14641089)
There's critiquing, and there's constructive feedback.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by jonahx on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:28PM (#14642369)
> The commentary applies equally-well to pre-fab apartments, shotgun shacks, suburban housing developments, etc. It's poorly-targeted.

That's a false equivalence. Shotgun shacks and suburban housing developments aren't trying to be something they're not. And that is why you don't find ironic commentary like this directed at them.

When you put on airs, you get cut down. Is that mean? Probably. Sometimes it's also appropriate.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by spamizbad on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:05PM (#14640359)
The person you're describing is a 23-year old woman who comes from a working-class background. Hardly elitist. McMansions are/were a status-symbol of the upper-middle class, and now they're being attacked from the bottom.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mi100hael on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:42PM (#14640624)
She appears to be quite well-educated in the realm of architecture and its history. I personally enjoy her blog, but you don't have to be old and rich to be a snob.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by obstinate on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:57PM (#14640724)
She's also a socialist, for what it's worth, and involved in lobbying for quality affordable housing. That doesn't make her immune from attacks of classism, but it might affect how one judges what she says.

(Also worth noting that McMansions are typically homes to the upper middle class and the rich, not the poor.)

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by lliamander on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:52PM (#14640260)
I understand the concern over elitism, and many of the good examples shown on the blog are very nice houses, but in my experience there are many humbler homes that are better than mcMansions.

You can have homes that are 1200-1800 sqft. that are very easy to live in, aesthetically pleasing and (in non-metropolitan areas) quite affordable for a middle-class family.

For me, it's about homes that are easy to sell (because they check off all the boxes on some generic list) vs. homes that are a joy to live in. My impression is that there was some wisdom regarding the latter that has been lost in the last 40 years.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by allworknoplay on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:53PM (#14640696)
I thought I was the only bothered by that blog (the 99pi episode was based on it).

I agree with practically all of its conclusions (ugly, oversized, out of place, generic, etc.), but the entire thing was a bunch of worthless value judgements: this is bad, that is bad. Not: this is bad because of function, but literally "this should never happen" -- no explanation.

Real example from way back machine, from the blog's most recent post there:

  A transom should never overwhelm the door or window it’s sitting above.
  Here’s an example of how to transom:
  And how to…not:

... that's it. No explanation, just "I'm right, they're wrong." It's just lousy, valueless criticism. Nobody would take this lazy opinion drivel from any other kind of critic.

(Separate: Do I think zillow was right here? Of course not).

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by omikun on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:18PM (#14641228)
I think there is a fair dose of irony in your value judgement of her value judgement of the buyers' value judgement of McMansions.

Her main points are basically unified theme and form follows function and how McMansions often break those rules (a hodgepodge of different elements, columns too large for the things they support).

Her blog also informs fundamentals of good taste in architecture. It's no different from learning what makes a classical painting good or good pacing in movies.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by pbhjpbhj on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:36PM (#14640992)
>>A transom should never overwhelm the door or window [...]

>... that's it. No explanation [...]

The explanation is ~'it shouldn't overwhelm it'. Of course that's a value judgement. Like saying the front bumper (aka "fender") shouldn't be too big on a car; or a persons hat shouldn't be too big for their hat (tell that to JK, https://goo.gl/images/ztdusQ).

The implicit point is that the transom is ostentatiously large, enlarged beyond the reviewer's sense of propriety.

Surely there is nothing else. It's a judgement of style?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:06AM (#14643793)
The blog works on two levels. The first is pointing out established architectural principles and traditions.

The second is poking the US tradition of "I have money and therefore I'm right about everything, even when I have no idea what I'm doing" squarely in both eyes.

For the first, there is an embryonic science of aesthetics. Features like self-similarity, scale coherence, integration, and symmetry tend to score more highly than random content blobbery and mash-ups.

For the second - of course it's political. But in a country where freedom of speech is supposed to be a thing, I see that as a feature, not a bug.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by Houshalter on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @01:10AM (#14642722)
I made the same complaints when this blog was first posted on HN. All of their rules are entirely arbitrary and subjective opinions. They give very little argument or reasoning to support them. The best they have is side by side comparisons. Where they say "Isn't the one on the left so much better?" And on all of them I completely disagree and think the McMansion actually looks better. I just don't like the "simple, old fashioned, perfectly symmetrical" aesthetic that the author worships.

Worse is that most of their advice is actually harmful. For instance they don't like windows, especially asymmetrical ones. But lots of scientific studies have found that windows improve mental health significantly in a number of ways. Sunlight is very good. Or they demand houses be symmetrical. But if I've learned anything from games like dwarf fortress and Minecraft, that's not true. While symmetry might look nice, it generally creates designs that are less practical than if you weren't constrained by it. And every rule they have is like that. Just purely aesthetic constraints that trade off against other more practical values.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by yazan94 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @01:11PM (#14647214)
Do you have any places to learn about less traditional design and architecture?
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by arkades on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:19PM (#14640485)
http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/post/162204726406/looking-ar...

Perhaps you could read this post as to why the author is picking on McMansions in particular, and their stance on elitism, and give your take.

Personally, I don't get the impression of the blog authors intent that you are receiving.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by uses on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:52PM (#14640692)
Thanks, that's actually pretty helpful. I think the term McMansions has a bit of a marketing problem now that I understand the purpose of the movement a bit better.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by blhack on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:08PM (#14641498)
The only relevant question is: do the people living in these houses enjoy them? Because if they do, then who cares?

I look at some of the houses on the blog and think they're really pretty. Sorry I don't have the correct sort of taste in windows or whatever. Maybe it's because I'm one of those dumb idiots that grew up in a flyover state (Iowa).

This house: http://99percentinvisible.org/app/uploads/2016/10/12-hate-pe...

Looks really pretty to me. What seriously is the problem here?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by dgacmu on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:05PM (#14642046)
Trying to answer with the author of the mcmansion hell's viewpoint, the digrams on this post are helpful: http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/post/148605513816/mcmansions...

In the one you pointed out, the question arises: "Which part is the actual house?" It has a feeling of "someone stuck on this extra part here, this stairwell here, ..." particularly with the mix of the stone and stucco'd/painted exterior, the multiple incoherent roof angles, and the inconsistent Z-depth of the front of the house.

With some architecture, the more you look at it, the more it grows on you. With the picture you posted, at first glance, I had the same reaction you did -- but after I really looked at it for a while, it started to bug the heck out of me. Kind of the same thing that happens after listening to too much auto-tuned music. The effect is cool the first time you hear it, but after a while, ...

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by blhack on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:01PM (#14642265)
> It has a feeling of "someone stuck on this extra part here, this stairwell here, ..."

Isn't that practically one of the defining characteristics of Frank Lloyd Wright's houses?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by dgacmu on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:01PM (#14646616)
Concur. The FLW houses I've seen have all been quite consistent. I like Kentuck Knob as an example more than Fallingwater, because it doesn't have the super-obvious "cantilevered over the water" thing as a focus point, so you have to look at the whole a little more:

http://kentuckknob.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Kentuck_Sp...

Consistent roofline, consistently repeated window motif, re-use of the horizontal stonework for the house, the exterior wall, and the chimneys.

The drawback of his Usonian houses is that the ceiling height is ridiculous by 2017 standards. At 6'3", I have to duck in several of the rooms, much less the doorways. Oof.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by blhack on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @04:08PM (#14648910)
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by 3xnis on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:15AM (#14643561)
It's the other way round. The people who are living in these houses don't have to look at them. It's the people who don't live in those houses that have to look at them.

It's an insult to society when somebody builds an ugly house and everybody else has to look at it.

Settled neighborhoods are more expensive than new ones because you can avoid living next to an ugly house.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by aninhumer on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @09:34AM (#14645205)
So, I tend to agree that this house does not immediately jump out as ugly, and the suggestion that it is obviously flawed does come over as snobbish.

I'm not sure I mind the mixed stone and stucco that another comment mentions. It seems like a valid aesthetic style, especially with the chosen colours.

However, there are a few weird things I do notice. The double roof gable on the right seems unnecessary and unbalanced. And there are also many random windows in different styles, and in strange places. The ones below the double roof seem particularly obviously mismatched, and the window on the diagonal portion above the main door really looks out of position.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by scribu on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:50PM (#14640244)
I propose an experiement to test the elitism hypothesis: Ask a random selection of people to rate various types of houses. If McMansions are rated poorly only by "elites", then the hypothesis is true. If they're rated poorly by everyone, it's false.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by laretluval on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:56PM (#14640294)
The hypothesis has already been tested: these houses sell very briskly.

Edit: the points below are all fair.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by spamizbad on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:00PM (#14640319)
Depends on the market. They're not so hot in the Chicago suburbs, where buyers have the option of newer construction "modern" homes in addition to pre-WWII vintage homes: https://chicago.curbed.com/2016/9/13/12902744/chicago-mcmans...

There are some metro areas where your only choices are basically McMansions or obsolete post-war housing. Given those limited options, it's no surprise why people prefer them.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by ethbro on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:10PM (#14640399)
Or proves that people prefer a lower price point over style.

Or that, since 3/4 of US homes are spec rather than custom, developers prefer to built cheaper, larger homes when given the option.

(McMansions are generally cheaply constructed for their price / square footage)

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by theptip on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:05PM (#14640362)
Data please. Briskly relative to other houses in the same size / price range?
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by throwaway055 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:21AM (#14643147)
There's definitely rampant classism going on here, but not in the direction you seem to think.

Her blog has an extremely mean-spirited tone, she's downright attacking people.

Her audience is accepting of that because it's directed at people who own large houses, and people who own large houses have money and are successful. In her world, it's acceptable to treat people poorly, as long as they're successful and have money.

If she were applying the same architectural critique to poorly-designed small crappy houses (which exist by the millions), she'd be getting a very, very different reaction.

Her Patreon might not be as successful, let's just put it that way.

I actually think that's a big part of the appeal of the content. Large houses are typically a source of envy, but if you can turn that large house into something to be embarrassed about, the envy dissipates and the viewership gets to feel built-up by the tearing down of the wealthy person.

My standard for how people should be treated doesn't change based on their income level, so to me this just seems mean, I think much less of her, and I don't want to read more of it.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by bchalala on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:19AM (#14643868)
The very nature of the houses in question are built for the sole purpose of showing some sort of opulence to the viewer. The people who buy these kind of houses look at that sort of opulence and say "yep it's got all that opulence I want" and they buy it. Now that same exact person could potentially buy something with taste, or potentially even design a house. It's not like these people are forced into having a stupid looking house.

On the contrary, you'd be hard pressed to find a lower class person with the financial freedom to buy whichever house they please, and because of that they kind of have to live in houses that are made in a more functional sense of "a place where humans can live."

The blog isn't about tearing down wealthy people, it's about tearing down shitty architecture. She showcases really great architecture as well that obviously isn't affordable.

I don't think your argument has any basis.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by throwaway055 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:41PM (#14646939)
> The blog isn't about tearing down wealthy people, it's about tearing down shitty architecture. She showcases really great architecture as well that obviously isn't affordable.

It's about tearing down shitty architecture, in a way that directly criticizes the owner's purchase and taste while making endless derogatory assumptions and claims about them, and that's only ok because that owner has money.

She, for example, thinks it's sexist for a bathroom to have two sinks, and a bathroom having two sinks is an appeal to the owner's sexism. You can take this person seriously if you want to, but to act like there's no malice here is a little absurd, and it's clear (at least to me) that that malice is only accepted because it's directed at the wealthy.

And it's totally unwarranted, she doesn't know these people and she doesn't know their political affiliations or their positions on social issues. They're just people who like a house you don't like. I don't see how that's a justification to draw insults on pictures of their house and post it on the internet.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by tormeh on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:55PM (#14640717)
I kind of like the McMansion property of looking like the house was built piecewise. It's a little endearing, I find. Actually, Castle Neuschwanstein was built that way - it was all built in one go with modern techniques but has a lot of different submasses. But I have to say the execution is often lacking. Proportions have never been the strong suit of evolved buildings, but there's an obsession with traditional markers of wealth (roman columns, etc) that don't really work when you don't have the money to build the other things equally large.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by smudgymcscmudge on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:57PM (#14641122)
I felt the same way you did when I first read McMansion Hell, but despite my initial reaction I was compelled to keep reading. I came around to really like Kate. What is interesting to me is how polarizing she can be. Reading these comments confirms it.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by ryguytilidie on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:51PM (#14641413)
Doesn't the whole blog specifically point out examples on each house of why they think it is bad architecture? It's not like she just makes a blanket statement that they're bad with no supporting evidence. Every single post has a ton of valid critiques. I don't really know what there is to get.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by abandonliberty on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:40PM (#14641655)
Let's be real. I'm not an architect. I'm a layperson with a decent sense of aesthetics.

60%+ of what McMansion complained about I was oblivious to.

Sure, there are some obvious things but the majority would not be accessible to someone unless they were educated in the field and taught what 'proper' aesthetics are.

Is it still a crime in some circles to wear a blazer with denim?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by randcraw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @03:29AM (#14643184)
Not at all. A well-chosen semi-formal jacket can be serve as a great contrast to worn denim lowers. But without attention to detail, you get a pale blue polyester leisure suit jacket over black stretch "jeans". And that doesn't express playfulness, so much as a doubling down on bad taste of biblical proportions.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by siidooloo on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:29PM (#14640933)
I think a lot of people here are confusing her criticisms of McMansions with criticisms of mansions in general.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by canoebuilder on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:03AM (#14643512)
Robert Schumann started a magazine in which he railed against the musical Philistines of his day. We're still listening to the music of Schumann and those who he admired. The Philistines? Not so much.

Was that "classist elitism," or did Schumann just know what he was talking about?

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by pbhjpbhj on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:45PM (#14641376)
Exactly, there's nothing wrong with Geocities style websites either, just snobbishness. /s
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by cookiecaper on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:47PM (#14641972)
I mean, to be fair, there isn't anything wrong with Geocities-style websites. Some of us have fond memories of the mid-90s web, and dislike the trend of shoving 20MB of JavaScript down the reader's throat before they can get to the 20KB of text they're actually looking for.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by partiallypro on Monday June 26, 2017 @08:16PM (#14641543)
It's not just bad architecture, it's actually a bad investment.
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by angersock on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:43PM (#14640197)
So, first, a lot of the architectural choices (especially if they were picked out by the homeowners and not by the architects) are done to ape (poorly) aristocratic and "Old Money" sorts of dwellings...so, making fun of them on a classist line is semi-acceptable.

The real problem is that the architecture is just plain bad. Space is wasted, exterior are marred by design details meant only to suggest a style of building without any of the things that make them useful, interiors waste space and destroy any efficient attempts at heating and cooling--there is no defending that.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by mschaef on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:49PM (#14640239)
> there is no defending that.

There is a lot of space between defending bad ideas and putting up a website to mock them.

Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by placeybordeaux on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:41PM (#14640615)
There's definitely a good bit of gatekeeping here
Re:Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts by soheil on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @12:54AM (#14642671)
> The whole thing stank of classist elitism

Agreed. Driving a Mercedes is a status symbol, I don't see her complaining about the unnecessary Swarovski crystals in the headlights of an S class, but oh no those columns that "serve no function and remind of me of a bank where I keep my money" they are fundamentally different and must go.