That's well known for a long time. During cold war a lot of Russian weapons were based on the US designs. There is a TV series, Americans, which shows how to manipulate people and steal secrets. Even atomic bomb secrets were stolen (by Klaus Fuchs and others).

So I guess a lot of people in military complex make a lot of money on these exploits, PRISM and other projects. And they just don't care about whole society.

But if you phrase it to something like "Can the government be trusted with backdoors to protect us from terrorists and Chinese hackers", then suddenly public sentiment will change dramatically.

> Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Patriotism is both a wonderful and terrible thing, and it is made worse by fearing the "other". Any time people create a boogeyman (China, Mexico, Muslims, what have you), be on the lookout for what the true motivations are.

I found that hypothesis widely accepted, without so much for it.

Patriotism fuses core values like freedom or solidarity with a flag. That's why it is easier to pervert.

Patriotism tells people that because there are people born in the same line limits that you, you should be proud of what they do, and you should help them first.

Patriotism distorts history.

> "Fourteen thousand years ago, Sweden was still covered by a thick ice cap." https://sweden.se/society/history-of-sweden/

Bullshit. Sweden didn't exist 14000 years ago. All history is learned as if the current countries were an inevitable result thousands of years ago. World history, human history, gets displaced to be able to build a national sentiment.

> "The colonial history of the United States covers the history of European settlements from the start of colonization until their incorporation into the United States of America" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_history_of_the_United...

Again, we get that feeling of pre-determination. As if those people weren't free to choose their future as if they weren't individuals but just a means to create a country.

Patriotism narrows the mindset of populations. I don't see that usefulness. Anything that people does for patriotism will be better done for freedom, equality, fraternity, etc.

Why is patriotism a wonderful thing? What arguments am I missing?

Now we have more than enough resources to provide basics for all 10 billion of us (and decreasing) so patriotism has largely been confined to friendly rivalry around sports and regional cuisine. It was just a matter of mapping out the world's local customs and needs so the resources could be distributed intelligently.

And even at that, only about 4% of GWP goes to basic food, shelter, health, education, and cultural-ecological preservation these days. Entertainment and luxury goods make up the rest. This was unthinkable in the 2020s, but there was a lot of duplication of effort due to the maintenance of corporate moats in the basic sustenance industry at that time.

Sent from my iPhone 16S

Keep the temperature up, and it eventually leads to civil war, just like amped up patriotism / nationalism leads to wars between states.

This can be a wonderful and terrible thing.

But it's often patriotism that is seen as what enabled things like the congressional Republicans in the Nixon era to authorize the special investigations which brought him down.

That's only one example - there are plenty of others where an individual puts the interest of the group ahead of themselves. That isn't always a bad thing: the alternative is the tyranny of the strong, where the strongest individual has the most say.

Patriotism always leads to "us" vs "them", it seems.

But the implications of it are not. Otherwise, no one (including heads of TLAs) could continue to claim that gov't backdoors are a good idea without being widely perceived as an idiot.

The ethical concern here is whether the NSA should have reported the holes to the manufacturers and the failure to handle its privileged knowledge in a safe manner.

But every time they ask for there to be legally mandated backdoors - they need to be reminded of these incidents.

The NSA actively wants there to be "faults" like these. They just only want the "good" guys to have access to them.

(edit: my logic and phrasing was really bad)

I don't think they'd win; the ransomware authors and operators are the ones who perpetrated the act. The U.S. government probably wouldn't be found negligent since the software was stolen. NHS carries partial liability since it was negligent with its patching, according to industry-wide IT security standards.

Comparing it to firearms, I can be held partially liable for a wrongful death if I leave my Colt 1911 out on my porch; it's different if a burglar stole my gun safe and committed a crime.

(obligatory disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, I just play one on Hacker News)

I'd say the NHS is far more at fault than anyone else here.

FBI's (recently fired) James Comey has been asking for an encryption backdoor for the past 3 years:

2014: https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/going-dark-are-technology-...

At that time, he said unbreakable encryption should be illegal: http://www.newsweek.com/going-not-so-bright-fbi-director-jam...

2015 (asking for a backdoor): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jul/08/fbi-chief...

2016 (same): https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/03/fbi-is-asking-co...

2016 (tried to force apple to create a backdoor for the iphone): https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

And then here recently, he's upped it to an international agreement to create a backdoor: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170327/10121437009/james...

He's not the first, only, or last person to ask for it.

A couple of bad business decisions and they are where yahoo is today. So be smart about how you use these services and educate the non-technical folks around you.

Since email in the modern world has this type of importance, what should I do? If you say gmail can't protect their data forever, do I not use gmail for email? What do I use then? No service will be free from data leakage, even an email server I run myself.

Distribute risk. Use multiple accounts. Don't handle all work/financial stuff on a single account. Keep work and personal accounts separate. Reduce the number of hours you spend online being a data milch cow for these corps. This automatically reduces dependence. Don't allow messenger chat transcript backups to happen by just uninstalling the app every other night. Don't restore any saved transcripts on disk on reinstall.

I could go on and on but basic rule is use your imagination. Don't use these tools the way they want you to use them. Use them as you would use a tool in a workshed as an aid, not as a drug you are dependent on.

Sad that managing our own multi device services is so time consuming.

Deleting all my email would be a big cost to pay for a gain that I can't exactly quantify; I would have to figure out the likelihood of my data being leaked over time and the cost to me if the data was leaked. That isn't readily obvious what the risk factor is for me, but I KNOW the cost factor.

Personally, where I would point the finger squarely at Microsoft is in its recent attempts to conflate security and non-security updates. Plenty of people, including organisations who are well aware of what they're doing technically, have scaled down or outright stopped Windows updates since the GWX fiasco and other breaking changes over the past few years.

This also leads to silliness like the security-only monthly rollups for Windows 7 not being available via Windows Update itself for those who do update their own systems (not that this matters much if Windows Update was itself broken on your system by the previous updates and now runs too slowly to be of any use). Instead, if you don't want whatever other junk Microsoft feel like pushing this month, you have to manually download and install the update from Microsoft's catalog site. Even then, things like HTTPS and support for non-IE browsers took an eternity to arrive, and whether the article for the relevant KB on Microsoft's support site includes things like checksums to verify the files downloaded were unmodified seems to be entirely random.

I get that Microsoft would like everyone to use Windows 10, but since for some of us that isn't an option or simply isn't desirable. Since we bought Windows 7 with Microsoft's assurance that it would be supported with security patches until 2020, this sort of messing around is amateur hour and they really should be called out on it a lot more strongly than they have been.

Also, does Windows 10 Pro attached to a domain controller still have the same aggressive updates? Or do domain admins dictate that policy?

At one company I worked at, everyone in IT could volunteer for the patch group to get security patches a few days before the rest of the machines. That seems to work pretty well. Is there any evidence there might have been a 0 day involved that wasn't patched? I find it disheartening that so many machines in large managed networks like telecos and hospitals could be so far behind on patches! (3 months is A LOT in Internet time).

If people are just doing really basic stuff like order entry for doctors/nurses, we really need to get away from the full PC model. Seems like most of these machines should just be Chromebooks, Linux boxes that boot straight to a browser or something of that nature instead of a full PC/Macs. Lower the attack surface with something that's easy to update. Those machines would be lower cost too and easier to manage/patch -- moving back to the terminal/thin-client model.

BMJ released a report[0] just two days ago alleging that up to 90% of the NHS's computers are still running XP.

> Many hospitals use proprietary software that runs on ancient operating systems. Barts Health NHS Trust’s computers attacked by ransomware in January ran Windows XP. Released in 2001, it is now obsolete, yet 90% of NHS trusts run this version of Windows.

[0] http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2214

Whilst this is true, it's probably also true that the impact of this attack is highly concentrated across organisations with chronic under-investment and a laissez-faire attitude to security.

Good developers are rare enough, but good IT security and security-minded developers are even more rare. And it's even more rare that they decide to work within healthcare.

There just isn't enough of you to go around and you can't be everywhere.

Even if you can afford to have a dedicated pentesting team (I'd like to work at a healthcare system/hospital network that did), physical security is still a major problem if only because it's very easy to impersonate people.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-...

Military drones were using XP until they just had too much spyware on the machines to operate the drones.

While this is true, it doesn't address the point that you were responding to:

> this is an excellent example that we can all reference the next time someone says that governments should be allowed to have backdoors to encryption etc

...where "should be allowed to have" is interpreted as "should be given by software manufacturers".

The NSA has a specific mission to secure the nation's infrastructure. In witholding key information from US companies, it's failing that mission.

Edit: Apparently, not zero days. Vulnerabilities were patched months ago. I think the point still stands, which is that this outcome really has little to do with debate over encryption backdoors.

2nd Edit: On second thought, there is an argument that, if a backdoor were in place that only government agencies had access to, the means to access it could be leaked just as easily and in a similar manner to the way that information about these vulnerabilities was leaked. Then, we'd really be fucked since a backdoor could likely not be "fixed" with a simple patch (it might be fundamental to the design of a system). Considering this, I'll have to walk back my earlier statement and agree that the topic of backdoors is quite relevant here.

The exploits released by Wikileaks' Vault 7 dump went public months ago. They're as much a 0-day as JFK's assassination was just a few days ago.

The NSA leaks contained previously undisclosed security vulnerabilities that were patched only because they were stolen. In MSFT's case it was less than 30 days, and they basically skipped a patch week to make it happen.

It's manifestly obvious that 0day and 30day can both be considered extremely dangerous in the real world.

This issue is apparently based on a more recent leak by the Shadow Brokers, containing content from NSA and some other DoD elements who worked on offensive cyber operations.

Even if everything off the shelf and open source has some built-in escrow unlocking keys compiled in, hackers are just going to find those code paths and remove them. Encryption works because of certain mathematical principals and laws.

Backdoors will only let governments look at legitimately encrypted data and not anything made by criminals who know how technology works.

There's a bigger question here: what if the NSA or CIA or some other intelligence/defence organisation discovers a solution to solve some of these hard problems in polynomial time .. and then doesn't release that information so they can use it to spy.

In that situation you're going even further: you have agents who are literally holding back scientific research that could change the entire field of mathematics and human understanding, research that could advance number theory by orders of magnitude (a jump equal to that of going from the first flight Kitty Hawk to the Saturn 5 rocket), for limited political gain.

So "If encryption had a backdoor" is meaningless. It's really "If a given encryption implementation had a back door" and no one is making the criminals use certain algorithms.

thanks

Anyone who actually knows what they are doing, and are prepared to break the law, would just use AES. All of those law-abiding institutions would be forced to use a weak encryption scheme.

Sure, it might help stop script kiddies, but it won't help to stop professionals, and professionals are the ones that you have to worry about, since they end up hosing 45,000+ installations in a day.

This is the flaw in the logic. "Encryption" can't have a backdoor any more than math can have a back door.

Specific types of encryption can. But there's nothing to stop a malicious user from using a non-backdoored encryption algorithm or inventing their own.

Maybe one day, as a species, we'll learn not to create this kind of devices.

(sorry if the message seems too exaggerated)

Revealing the vulnerability would place the US Govt at a distinct disadvantage.

Your point is actually valid, but that doesn't mean I have the intention to pardon the NSA for having compromised the network of my university, the same network I used each and every single day during my studies (and no, I am not a terrorist, nor I know anyone involved in terrorism, child pornography, or what-else they had in mind).

Sorry to say, but "anyone is doing it", is not an excuse or a reason for doing something.

If instead of exploiting half of the world, they had dedicated their experience in making their (and everyone else) infrastructure safer (by sharing security conscious design concepts, considerations with software developers and hardware manufacturers), now we probably would not have had massive botnets, exploitations and leaks (least but not least the political consequences of perpetrating and sustaining this kind of decisions).

Where is the point when maintaining the supremacy of one's country over the others through deceit, intrigue, and espionage costs too much in terms of negative outcomes?

For me that line, US and many others included, has been passed a long time ago. But that's just my humble opinion. Each one is free to draw conclusions through his own point of view.

(Not that it's your fault, it's somewhat germane to the overall issue of government, I'm just whining)