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Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by hkmurakami on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:07PM (#14328306)
If you explicitly ask someone with the form "are there are organizations that are infalliable to leaks?" they're likely to say "no of course not. Humans make errors"

But if you phrase it to something like "Can the government be trusted with backdoors to protect us from terrorists and Chinese hackers", then suddenly public sentiment will change dramatically.

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by _asummers on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:53PM (#14328579)
To quote Göring,

> Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Patriotism is both a wonderful and terrible thing, and it is made worse by fearing the "other". Any time people create a boogeyman (China, Mexico, Muslims, what have you), be on the lookout for what the true motivations are.

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by kartan on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:24PM (#14328700)
> Patriotism is both a wonderful and terrible thing

I found that hypothesis widely accepted, without so much for it.

Patriotism fuses core values like freedom or solidarity with a flag. That's why it is easier to pervert.

Patriotism tells people that because there are people born in the same line limits that you, you should be proud of what they do, and you should help them first.

Patriotism distorts history.

> "Fourteen thousand years ago, Sweden was still covered by a thick ice cap." https://sweden.se/society/history-of-sweden/

Bullshit. Sweden didn't exist 14000 years ago. All history is learned as if the current countries were an inevitable result thousands of years ago. World history, human history, gets displaced to be able to build a national sentiment.

> "The colonial history of the United States covers the history of European settlements from the start of colonization until their incorporation into the United States of America" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_history_of_the_United...

Again, we get that feeling of pre-determination. As if those people weren't free to choose their future as if they weren't individuals but just a means to create a country.

Patriotism narrows the mindset of populations. I don't see that usefulness. Anything that people does for patriotism will be better done for freedom, equality, fraternity, etc.

Why is patriotism a wonderful thing? What arguments am I missing?

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by erikpukinskis on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:06PM (#14328891)
Patriotism was temporarily necessary while we rapidly increased standard of living for ourselves, and didn't have enough resources to do it globally. In the early 21st century it was still a zero sum game on subdecade timescales.

Now we have more than enough resources to provide basics for all 10 billion of us (and decreasing) so patriotism has largely been confined to friendly rivalry around sports and regional cuisine. It was just a matter of mapping out the world's local customs and needs so the resources could be distributed intelligently.

And even at that, only about 4% of GWP goes to basic food, shelter, health, education, and cultural-ecological preservation these days. Entertainment and luxury goods make up the rest. This was unthinkable in the 2020s, but there was a lot of duplication of effort due to the maintenance of corporate moats in the basic sustenance industry at that time.

Sent from my iPhone 16S

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by aswanson on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:41PM (#14329186)
16s? No Neuralink?
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by anonred on Saturday May 13, 2017 @01:09AM (#14329609)
Only available on plus models.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by barrkel on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:29PM (#14328966)
It's even stronger than that; it's tribal. It affects political affiliations as well; once you've identified yourself as part of a group, you're more inclined to take on group's opinions, and you start to feel knee-jerk disgust at the rationales of the opposing side.

Keep the temperature up, and it eventually leads to civil war, just like amped up patriotism / nationalism leads to wars between states.

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by nl on Friday May 12, 2017 @09:09PM (#14329088)
Patriotism can be a way to align the interests of a group ahead of those of the individuals in the group.

This can be a wonderful and terrible thing.

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by ajmurmann on Friday May 12, 2017 @10:01PM (#14329231)
The scary thing is that it's about the group as opposed to people not in the group. This tribalism is nothing but scary.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by nl on Saturday May 13, 2017 @03:17AM (#14329892)
It can be, yes.

But it's often patriotism that is seen as what enabled things like the congressional Republicans in the Nixon era to authorize the special investigations which brought him down.

That's only one example - there are plenty of others where an individual puts the interest of the group ahead of themselves. That isn't always a bad thing: the alternative is the tyranny of the strong, where the strongest individual has the most say.

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by ajmurmann on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:35AM (#14330879)
I could also care about justice and people in general regardless of race or nationality or where they live.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by _asummers on Saturday May 13, 2017 @09:09AM (#14330768)
Snowden comes to mind.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by PopsiclePete on Friday May 12, 2017 @07:30PM (#14328730)
I'm yet to see anything positive from patriotism. It's a form of outdated tribalism. Even the idea of a nation-state isn't that old - this all started with the Napoleonic Wars.

Patriotism always leads to "us" vs "them", it seems.

Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by throwaway91111 on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:42PM (#14329017)
Patriotism seems to be a euphemism for nationalism.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by throwaway91111 on Friday May 12, 2017 @08:41PM (#14329013)
It's quite hard to find a good pitch for patriotism. I like my country, by like any relationship, it is conditional on not being a sociopath. Furthermore, everything i like about my country i country i can like directly: free speech is laudable in itself. Without free speech, what is the us? Nothing i care for.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by qznc on Saturday May 13, 2017 @03:29AM (#14329913)
Greetings from Germany. Losing WW2 thoroughly destroyed patriotism here. We do fine.
Re:Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hack... by pbowyer on Saturday May 13, 2017 @03:52AM (#14329949)
Greetings from Britain. Unfortunately we didn't get that benefit too, as Brexit and the current election demonstrate...