They are. Like living sculptures. There's just something extremely dignified about them. Like finally growing up after the childishness of strip-mining. The adults are here.

I for one can't wait until we develop a way to live without them - the only condolence is that they move us away from the coal and gas industries. I do hope that solar leaves them in its wake and we can be done with the monstrosities.

I guess you've never seen them blow the top off a West Virginia mountain to get the coal out. Windmills can be replaced by solar, but that mountain isn't coming back. (Caveat: don't know if that's still done or not, but it was done plenty in the past.) If feel ya on the aesthetics (though I personally like them), but if you're complaining about windmills "littering the coastline", then maybe blowing the tops off mountains doesn't happen in your backyard. Instead you got windmills. Consider it your aesthetic tax for having reliable, inexpensive electricity.

Or consider nuclear, which is much cleaner, safer and lower coast than all other energy sources

No, according to the US Energy Information Administration the levelized cost of nuclear has been comparable or less than coal (without the massive negative externalities of coal)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/201...

Also:

"not typically included in levelised cost of electricity assessments is the cost of decommissioning a reactor and disposing nuclear waste, says Roula Inglesi-Lotz an energy economist and associate professor at the University of Pretoria. This would further increase the price of nuclear energy. Even when these costs are not included in calculations, the cost of nuclear investment remains high."

https://africacheck.org/reports/is-nuclear-energy-really-the...

>..."not typically included in levelised cost of electricity assessments is the cost of decommissioning a reactor and disposing nuclear waste

Maybe in other countries, but not the US. Every nuclear power plant in the United States is required, by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission as part of its licensing to set aside sufficient funds to decommission the plant when it reaches the end of its useful life.

>...(The USA is an exception, because the cost of decommissioning is included in the price of electricity, per the Nuclear Waste Policy Act),

Also there is a tax on electricity produced by nuclear power in the US to cover eventual long term waste disposal so it is priced into the cost - though ideally this high level waste will eventually be burned in a 4th gen reactor so the volume of waste will be a small fraction of what it would otherwise be.

scroll to the bottom image. Nuclear is the lowest cost along with hydro. If you want to argue against nuclear, you have to find another argument (which shouldn't be too hard).

https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/201...

Note that nuclear isn't getting any better, while other sources are improving every year. Would you rather plonk down a massive capital payment for a very average nuclear plant for the next 50-80 years, or gradually add more and more efficient sources of energy over that same time period?

Also:

"not typically included in levelised cost of electricity assessments is the cost of decommissioning a reactor and disposing nuclear waste, says Roula Inglesi-Lotz an energy economist and associate professor at the University of Pretoria. This would further increase the price of nuclear energy. Even when these costs are not included in calculations, the cost of nuclear investment remains high."

https://africacheck.org/reports/is-nuclear-energy-really-the...

Nuclear power is still the better cost/production method we have for now. It's safe (yes, the stats include deaths while building which puts wind/ocean at a disadvantage, but overall it is just as safe as renewable energy), it's efficient.

Just don't pull a Chernobyl and actually follow security measures.

We have uranium, yes, but if happenstance is our only criteria we should also be building nuclear weapons and burning lots of coal. Sadly we're doing the latter with great alacrity.

We also don't have a good place to store the waste. I don't think there's (m)any places on the planet that could be good places to store waste of this nature. It's probably telling that people often refer to nuclear waste needing to be stored or managed, rather than recycled, rendered safe, disposed of, etc.

We've got tons of space to store the waste. The country is right in the middle of a tectonic plate, so little worry about earthquakes, and large swathes of the country are uninhabited by anyone, even mythical 'lost tribes'. Even if nowhere else, we could store waste in the giant area cordoned off for nuclear testing in the '50s.

In my opinion, it's hard to find somewhere better suited for storing nuclear waste than 'somewhere in Australia'. Stable, first-world government, a fair few places where we can put it where even leaks wouldn't be a problem, skilled populace, etc etc.

In any case, it looks like they're discussing it: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-08/should-south-australia...

This makes sense only if your starting position is that creating nuclear waste makes sense.

> Stable, first-world government, a fair few places where we can put it where even leaks wouldn't be a problem, skilled populace, etc etc.

How long does nuclear (fission) waste need to be managed?

How long do you believe that AU has had a stable, first-world government?

> This makes sense only if your starting position is that creating nuclear waste makes sense.

The waste is being created, regardless of whether or not you think it makes sense. You can pretend that there's some fantasy world where there's no nuclear waste, but in the meantime here in the real world, there is such stuff and it needs to be managed.

> How long does nuclear (fission) waste need to be managed?

> How long do you believe that AU has had a stable, first-world government?

Federation was (to a rounding error) a century ago. Some would argue that it's been stable since then -- I'd argue it hasn't, but the boom/bust left/right vacillation so common in western ersatz democracies evidently is what counts as stable these days.

It's kind of besides the point, though, since it's a comparative exercise.

How long does nuclear fission waste need to be managed, and how does that compare to 'around a hundred years'?

You also make a less than compelling case that we have no choice but to have waste from nuclear fission -- we have plenty of options that don't involve nuclear fission.

Consider, for example, the fact that Australia has no nuclear fission plants generating electricity.

But just because we have access to relatively cheap Uranium doesn't mean we should be digging it up and processing it.

One of the reasons I rail against the suggestion that AU has a 'stable long term government' (ie. that could be said to be sufficiently grown up to handle fissile waste) is that right now that same government is very publicly committed to fossil fuels, despite the leader of same being on record only a few years ago asserting - loud and wide - that green energy should be our priority, and we should be moving away from fossil fuels. Append usual concerns about the various people involved in getting us to, and then maintaining, this unfortunate situation.

Oh, give me a goddamn break. You've got how much desert that's sparsely inhabited?

Personally however, still support solar. Especially solar house tiles, they look good, pay for themselves after a few years and can be placed on every house.

[0] https://xkcd.com/1162/

https://engineering.stanford.edu/news/how-extract-uranium-se...

Also, there's that "Not laying waste to huge areas and making them uninhabitable" thing.

Nukes would be fine for a species that was capable of acting intelligently and responsibly over long periods.

Humans are not (yet) that species.

Typo or pun?

Still not as bad as a plastic bottle on the ground.

Normally talking about aesthetic experiences as if they are universal is frowned upon, because the judgment of beauty is taken by many people to have an intrinsic quality of subjectivity to it. But that appears not to be a problem in the community of people that oppose wind turbines.

If you look at parent's comment: "They are. Like living sculptures. There's just something extremely dignified about them. Like finally growing up after the childishness of strip-mining. The adults are here. "

You can see that the judgement of beauty here is tainted by social implications, energy concerns, and possibly political environment.

This is only my reading of it though so maybe the parent meant something else.

I personally find them attractive but I haven't spent much time around them at all.

And yet if you were to make the same argument about a coal or even nuclear plant, you'd be considered a loon. Coal plants don't just look awful, they also stink up the surrounding areas. And while I've heard plenty of people say they like the look of windmills (I'm one myself), I've never heard anyone say they like the smell of coal plants.

And yet a number of old coal plants are being preserved and repurposed given that industrial chic is rather in vogue these days. See the Tate Modern for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tate_Modern

(These are admittedly not working plants but still.)

For example, I can put a few wind turbines or the classic towers from a nuclear plant into artwork and folks get the reference. I paint in a coal plant, and folks just think factory.

Nuclear plants, the Simpson-esque version I picture, are beautiful in their own right, btw, as are nearly all factories. It just depends on framing.

[1] http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

[2] http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-w...

Which really just goes to show how good wind is. The worst complaints aren't actually a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Also, it + solar will not meet needs.

As a bridge fuel natural gas is also perfectly capable for base load and peaking, and due to pricing has already been rapidly supplanting coal and oil. Longer term, pumped hydro where available, or even technologies like syngas could be used to store peak wind/solar capacity to generate when the resource does not meet need. Along with a better long-distance grid, it takes no stretch of the imagination for renewables to meet virtually all current demand, without even accounting for huge advances in new technologies.

Peak population is coming, and with increasing energy efficiency/conservation, we can very well expect peak energy usage to precede peak population.

The population will peak. What causes the peak? Lifting from poverty. What results? Much higher energy demand.

Regardless, current demand cannot be sustained by wind and solar. Not even speaking about future demand.

Gas is fossil. I prefer nuclear to meet demand for the foreseeable future.

Stop quoting this bullshit "fact." It is a meme made up by conservative think tanks to discredit wind farms. As other posters have already pointed out, other human-related factors such as domestic cats, buildings and towers, and most importantly pollution and loss of habitat are far more significant dangers to birds. If you actually care about birds, take your cats to the vet and put them down (this will also help save the oceans: a large part of fish in cat food comes from massive and illegal trawling in South-east Asia often done with slave labor), and donate any rural/suburban property you own to a land trust, to be given back to natural habitat.

It's not necessarily the raw numbers of birds killed, it's the type and the impact on their population. If your cat kills 1000 pigeons, the pigeon population won't notice. A handful of golden eagles every year or two though, and we get closer to losing another species.

[1]http://www.audubon.org/news/will-wind-turbines-ever-be-safe-...

At least over here in Germany the organisations working to get more renewables deployed and studying these things massively overlap (e.g. nature clubs lobbying/advertising for renewables, and at the same time providing the boots on the ground counting dead birds). It has been recognized as a problem and is now managed, just as other environmental influences of new construction projects are (e.g. evaluating a new location includes a comparison with known migratory patterns/populations and restrictions and monitoring requirements can be set accordingly)

> Some say just 10,000 birds a year meet their end at the hands (blades) of the wind industry. Others ramp that number up to 600,000

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdo...

source: https://thinkprogress.org/chart-how-many-birds-are-killed-by...

But the economic alternative is not coal but natural gas. What is you opinion in this context?

The next generation windmills were less ugly, but still too small. I always found them rather unobjectionable, but I could see one quibbling with that.

The current giants being put up though? They look great! They have these 90 foot blades that look like they were designed by an advanced alien race, their size makes them operate with a slow graceful sweep, and the relatively low density of them leaves the hillsides more visible as well.

Here in upstate New York there are planned wind and solar farms in the region and every one of both brings out a certain crowd of torches and pitchforks.

There's no pleasing some people. The energy has to come from somewhere, and right now coal, gas, and nuclear together make up most of the fuel mix.

We need nuclear, solar and wind, or 90% of people to die and the rest live in caves.

I assume you don't know much about strip mining, because strip mines in first world countries reclaim the land they mine as they follow the seam.

Your word choice is interesting.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Solar_Project#Solar_One

Although I guess beauty is subjective.

Embedded software is extremely hard to do mobile, and anyways all of the electronics tech is designed in Germany.

Getting a entry level job in wind is about being nearby and willing to work. If you have a college degree you can always be a field Engineer.

I'm an Electrical Engineer in the wind industry now, previously I was in the field, and previously I was an embedded software/hardware engineer.

So like, if I see people working at a wind farm, just go up and introduce myself?

(I have a full-time gig at the moment right now until September, so it'll be a little while).

If you want to know where they are building go through Abilene, TX and ask.

I'm curious about this kind of work, could you share more of your experience? What exactly did you do, how hard was it to find job, was it with one company, how often did you move from farm to farm?

There are maybe 5 major EPC Engineer Procure Construct companies all of them are very similar.

Lots of military types find the field work similar their previous experience.

You get to meet people from all walks of life, rural farmer to execs of S&P 500 companies.

Lots of driving.

More project management then Engineering if you're​ in the field.

I've also been a part of a few large scale solar farms 20-100MW Same companies and same work situation, but less cranes.

unintentional pun?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUjCD-fFU9k

http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2011/06/06/06climatewire-compan...

That would be an awesome job.

I'd love if you could share a couple of lines on the economics of that, like what your setup and ongoing expenses are like, and what's the biggest headache it involves. If you prefer, my gmail address is the same as my username. Thanks.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6261948

In addition to his superior craftsmanship, we also treat our bus like an engineering and teaching platform; we leave a lot of things taken apart (or in a raw, visible form) to use as teaching tools.

It's a balance; though - we have an almost-2-year-old, so we have to have a certain order and steadiness to things so he can't (or doesn't want to) take them apart all the time.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/dam-removal-nelso...

Here in Germany we traditionally have more water than we need, but recently the weather is more extreme. We get stronger rains in shorter times, leading to flooding and times with less than usual water. More dam capacity is the obvious solution to that.

Preferably, dams should not be built in the middle of a living river system, but higher up in the mountains, capturing the seasonal water. Also, where needed, small bypass rivers should be kept, allowing fish to migrate freely.

Even modern say SF offices still use that line: "They were eager to show us how, they say, the reservoir actually enhanced the beauty of the valley,"

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/environment-july-dec05-dam_8-...

I didn't say it was the motivation of the project, just that it has been claimed and used to buttress other arguments.

I am 100% in support of renewables. However, I also know several home owners near wind-rich areas. And, the noise pollution from the turbines is awful. Unfortunately, my friends are poor (as typical) and have little say in the matter.

I expect it is a particular manufacturer or unit, and quite possibly one built a long time ago, that is causing the trouble that some experience. But I haven't been able to track down which one. Sadly, it seems most just see 'tall white things with blades' and think they are all identical, which makes getting reliable information fairly difficult.

Just out of curiosity here's the noise profile (spectrogram) of a turbine at 1,37 km (0.85 miles), measured inside a home, where we can see the base frequency and several harmonic multiples:

http://i.imgur.com/m31hhR5.png

Here's the same turbine at 5km (3.1 miles), again inside a house, where the turbine is shut off at 11 a.m.:

http://i.imgur.com/pRJeunj.png

As we can see this low frequency noise can travel very long distances, and when you have wind farms with multiple turbines they can even create interference patterns, that could amplify the problems further.

To put it another way, a car on the NASCAR circuit looks a lot like a road suitable car anyone can buy at the dealer's lot, but the sound is completely different. It pays to be specific.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14174426

Anyway, I'm not sure of the model. abut, I could try to find out. Let me know.

Example article of some work going on in this space: https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2014-10-optimizin...

If there is anything which have been debated in Denmark it's the pros and cons of windmills, what the technology is, where the money are, what markets are interesting.

My point wasn't that you can't optimize just that it's not a field where that's a competitive advantage.

So it's the opposite in my case. I know the industry from the inside and know what matters in it and it's not technological advances.

But hey each to their own. I certainly wasn't implying he shouldn't get into the field just that there is a lot less going on than what it looks like on the surface.

A lot of them are made in facilities that were built to make railcars (including big tank cars).

And a lot of engineering is involved to optimize that design, to build the towers as strong as is necessary to survive high wind loads while using as little material as possible so as to minimize cost. You're trivializing something that has a lot of thought put into it just because you don't really understand it well. I can guarantee you that more thought, simulation, and calculation goes into the design of windmill towers than goes into the average software project.

If it helps, I'm not a software engineer and have an unused degree in mechanical engineering.

They are pretty damn sure it is strong enough. It isn't the minimum material necessary to ensure that.

Concrete doesn't seem like the right material for this job.

The brochure of one company: https://www.max-boegl.de/en/downloads-en/116-max-boegl-hybri...

(Disclaimer: I know nothing about this and just report back what I read on industry associations' and manufacturers' websites)

Cost is the killer of so many renewable energy sources. There is tons of optimization going on for cost.