Why? Why do that? My guess is that it's easy work to get and it gives you some immediate cash, and so it's more appealing than spending the time hunting for a 'real' job, but I've never heard an Uber driver actually admit that.

Yes, people prefer to make a little bit of money instead of not having money. This is surprising?

And when someone earns a little bit of money, they might wish that they made more money. Again--not news.

I think before getting critical about why Uber drivers are so dumb, it's worth thinking about why you don't drive for Uber. The answer probably starts with "because I don't feel like I have to." It does for me.

If someone has a great highly-paying full time job and still drives for Uber, then sure, question that person's judgment. Most Uber drivers are not in that situation though.

I'm just perplexed when they say they're losing money (or making so much less than minimum wage that they may as well be) but they keep on doing it instead of stopping. If they're not just blowing off some steam with hyperbole, they would literally be better off staying home on the couch.

Most people don't drive Uber as a job. It's a second or third job. Make-you-own-hours is what makes that possible.

> If they're not just blowing off some steam with hyperbole, they would literally be better off staying home on the couch.

I mean, ditto for payday loans -- you're better off not having the money. Unless you actually need the money to make rent. Then you're screwed.

Uber is better than payday loans, but if you're depreciating your car at a faster rate than you're making money, you're still up against a negative expected value.

Landlords use depreciation to have low taxable income despite being cashflow positive. I don't see why Uber drivers shouldn't be able to. They're making business use of a physical asset (their car).

Example 10-mile trip: 1.25 base fare + (10 miles * 1.15 per mile) = 12.75 * 80% (driver's share) = $10.20 revenue - 5.40 deduction for mileage = $4.80 revenue reported. For somebody in 20% tax bracket, this could yield $1.08 in savings.

Although using the per-mile deduction negates the ability to deduct line item expenses, such as gas, car washes, etc.

Something like - your car cost $30,000 and depreciates over 10 years, so $3,000 per year (just making up numbers, no idea if/how the IRS depreciates a car). So you'd have a $3,000 loss in the value of the car per year until it drops to 0. If the car was used 40% of the time for business (driving for Uber) you could claim 40% of the depreciation - $1200. I guess then you'd have to separately itemize all the gas, maintenance, etc.

But if you're actually losing money on the Uber-driving endeavor when that is factored in, whatever revenue you get should be tax-free. Of course, I suppose that only works if you're an independent contractor / business, and Uber drivers fought so hard to get treated as employees instead. Oh well. Employees get screwed when it comes to taxes.

Nobody wakes up in the morning and says "today I'm going to drive for Uber literally for free." Of course not. Let's use a little common sense here.

Uber drivers expect, plan, hope to make money. The point is, they don't make much, and sometimes it's very little (like on a long fare).

So the question is, then why do they keep doing it? And I'm just suggesting that maybe a lot of them don't have a higher-paying alternative that they are dumbly choosing against.

This still doesn't make any sense. If you are losing money working for Uber, then you do have access to a higher paying alternative - which is literally standing in your house and doing nothing. Because zero is greater than a negative amount.

I think there are really three explanations that make sense:

People are not literally losing money working for Uber, or maybe they are sometimes but not overall at the end of the month, and they're just rhetorically exaggerating in frustration.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but only when you include depreciation of their car, and that is a long term cost, so people are effectively taking a loan from their future selves.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but morally feel that they should be working rather than not working, even if there is no economic reason for them to do so, and they just hope their situation will improve in the future.

I believe this is it. They need money now, Uber is better than a payday loan but yes, they are mortgaging assets to make some cash now.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but enjoy driving as a hobby, and Uber helps them recoup at least some of the costs of driving around all the time.

(yes, I've had drivers tell me they do Uber/Lyft for fun because they love driving)

https://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/100715

I drive around, worrying that I don't get dragged into Los Altos (nobody wants rides OUT of Los Altos late at night - they're all coming home). Sometimes I will drive for a few minutes picking someone up before they cancel. If I didn't get far enough to pick them up I get no money for this. I finally pick up the person and try to make conversation with them. They're not always willing to talk, but I understand.

After driving for a while it gets too late to get too many requests. I start late because driving in traffic is a horrible hourly rate.

I had to deal with app crashes, the maps app being wrong due to changes, people putting the wrong address, people not finding my car and calling me in a noisy place etc. Some people don't like this because they think I'm a full time driver and I'm supposed to know how to deal with these situations. I'm not a professional. I never received any training by Uber. I don't know every single street in your neighborhood. I don't even have enough experience doing it to know how to deal with every situation.

So I would use the odometer to see how much I actually drove (Uber doesn't count picking up as distance - a hold-over from taxi companies). I calculate my profit using the amount of miles, and minutes (I time when I start, not when I make my first pick-up). When I see a single digit number it makes me disappointed yet again. Even when I'm driving at football games it's still more like $12 an hour because of the damn traffic. It's 3x more expensive, but it takes very long to get out of the parking lot and to get into it.

Don't even let me get started on star ratings... giving an Uber driver 4 stars basically says "this person shouldn't be driving with Uber" since the minimum rating is like 4.3

There is significant utility in owning a car. So much so, in fact, that many people are willing to take on the entire cost of ownership without ever earning direct income as a result of their driving.

they can't advertise higher rates than Lyft or they'll lose the price war

I'll happily give a bartender, server or a driver an extra buck or two when they make the experience pleasant/informative/friendly because, far too many people treat their jobs not as a privileged but a chore.

Without tipping far too many would take your money for granted and the quality of service would decline across the board because there is zero incentive to provide anything better.

I don't mean to sound flippant but, have you ever been to Europe? I've traveled to Germany, Ireland, Finland, and Iceland multiple times. None of those countries has a tipping culture and the service I receive, even at your basic fast food restaurant, is the same or better than in the States.

I must ask, why do you believe your statement to be true?

In a capitalism steeped melting pot, it does seem like things that might be more commonly 'seen'/appreciated in other cultures - pride in one's work, common standards of politeness, sense of serving/interacting with 'your community' rather than just 'anonymous strangers from other communities' - that could be non-financial motivators for good service elsewhere that are simply missing or too few & far between here.

I've seen you guys use this one for healthcare, too.

I assure you that Australia and Europe are also capitalism-steeped melting ppls.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/10/psychological-case-agai...

I've eaten out hundreds of times in my life, never left a tip, and never thought I needed an incentive system directly between me and the waiter. Same with taxis.

There are only so many ways to screw up bringing food to a table. I've never once though "wow that waiter really brought my plate to me badly".

Why not apply your logic to everything? Why not change hairdressing to a tip system? Why not surgery? Why not painting and building? You'll get better service, right?

Yeah, it's crazy and dumb and not changing drastically any time soon.

It's so arbitrary though, order a Pepsi from McDonald's no tip, order a Pepsi from a pub, $1 tip minimum. Tip the person who hands you a bottle of beer but not the person who makes your sandwich.

(Self serve soda machines are common now in fast food, but when I worked at McDonald's we poured the soda, no machines, and no tips)

Though I usually do tip at fast food or fast casual (if there's a tip jar or a spot on the CC receipt), and always tip at a coffee shop.

But the others, yeah... spot on.

The beverage pouring thing is especially insane; I'd never thought about that before. At a bar I'll usually tip 20% for a cocktail, but only 10% or so if I'm poured a beer or soft drink. But even that 10% is crazy when you wouldn't tip a fast-food cashier for pouring you a soda.

As an outsider, it's all quite insane especially when the baseline isn't 0% but more like 15% for default service in many situations. Or a $1 tip for something ridiculously basic at a bar like getting post-mix soda or uncapping a bottle of beer as you said.

To compare apples to apples, in a sandwich/coffee place in the US you're still expected to tip the standard amount, even if your change from a cash payment falls short. And not tipping at all in those situations is considered bad form.

I'd say the European system is far preferable, but I like Japan the best: a taxi driver would be nearly offended if you tried to tip them. I had one get out of the car and nearly chase me down because I got out before taking my 30 yen in change.

Just charge what it costs to provide a living wage and don't require or expect a tip, ever. Remove the social stigma associated with being cheap for not tipping. In the US, eliminate the comically-low minimum wage for tipped staff, and make them pay the regular minimum wage. To ease the transition, reduce payroll taxes for such businesses (tips aren't subject to payroll taxes) so they don't have to jack up prices 30+% to compensate. I know this will never happen here, but I can hope...

To be honest sometimes I'm anxious when my bill ends up some number that's hard to tip from; but if I don't tip, nothing will happen.

In other cases, I just want a ride home. I don't care about being regaled with tales, or how hyperoptimized the route is, or fake friendliness, or even refreshments. I just want to know, unambiguously, what it takes to satisfy my obligation for this specific service, and reasonably expect that the provider is on the same page.

Uber wanted to create a special zone for exactly this, and make expectations as clear as possible for everyone going in, and yet that still isn't good enough for many people.

(Though, FWIW, I think they also abused their position by driving rates insanely low.)

No, good service and hospitality are literally what your base wage should cover.

If your service job doesn't pay well enough to for you to provide good service and/or be a decent human being, perhaps you should seek out a less service-oriented job.

It seems like this is something they could help with. Can't they mark your home territory and try to schedule you rides that take you the right direction? If not immediately, maybe after a few rides in that area that don't take you too much farther away? It seems like this should be one of the main points of using Uber or Lyft, smart driver scheduling in areas where there's enough demand..

they had this feature

unfortunately, NOBODY LEAVES SAN FRANCISCO so it's pointless, you'll be waiting for someone to want a ride south for a very long time

they've since removed that feature because it hurts your bottom line to use it

Why would you wait long? It's not like the system doesn't know where you are. Just start driving back, and if someone is around that needs a ride that direction, deliver it to someone already heading back to home territory in the same direction. Worst case you don't get anyone and drive back without any fares. All it should take is a slight bias towards those traveling back from long drives if it's going the same direction.

Because while there ARE people that are driving south, other Uber drivers are closer than me to them.

> Just start driving back, and if someone is around that needs a ride that direction, deliver it to someone already heading back to home territory in the same direction.

I tried that. Every single time I did it, I ended up home before Uber found anyone. The only time the feature was useful is getting closer to the freeway that I was going to take.

You know what would happen if they raised the rates and paid more to the drivers? Two things - fewer riders would ride, and more drivers would drive. You would end up with a lot of drivers sitting around not getting any rides. They would most likely end up making LESS money per hour because they would not have enough riders to drive around.

Or, alternatively, everyone is making the correct decision and there isn't an imbalance anyway.

We really, really, need to address this as a society soon.

If the service instead allowed drivers to designate a "home zone" where the base price is payed, and then trips to successive neighboring zones have a multiplier applied, this would probably work better.

Perhaps limit the "home area" designation at the end of the day. So before someone is "ending" their day, they can click a button and service only in their home area.

That way, the usefulness of the service is not compromised as much.

Homosapeanless Carrigages

I use payment-in-app services in part because I don't like carrying much or any cash around, and when I do, it's usually just a few $20 bills, which aren't very useful for tipping in this scenario.

And yes, I do tip in-app when I use Lyft, in part because their social contract includes tipping, and I can do it without the on-the-spot pressure of needing to do so in the car. Uber explicitly states that tips are not expected or required, and does not provide an in-app way of tipping, so I wouldn't tolerate tip solicitation from a driver. (Hell, I wouldn't tolerate tip solicitation from a Lyft driver, either. Asking me for a tip when the app does it for you counts as "worse service" to me.)