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Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:56PM (#13536217)
They were most certainly tossed off their butts in the antebellum US at least: "Drink was everywhere in early America. “Liquor at that time,” recalled the Massachusetts carpenter Elbridge Boyden, “was used as commonly as the food we ate.” Americans drank in enormous quantities. Their yearly consumption at the time of the Revolution has been estimated at the equivalent of three-and-a-half gallons of pure, two-hundred proof alcohol for each person. After 1790 American men began to drink even more. By the late 1820s imbibing had risen to an all-time high of almost four gallons per capita."[0]

That 1820s number, if you do the math, was ~1.4 shots of Everclear or 3.5 shots of modern 80 proof whiskey per day for the average citizen. Wikipedia [1] has some more info on the boozing of people in those antebellum days. Suffice to say, it was a lot of booze. You can debate the strengths of these particular spirits and beers and people's drinking habits, but form what written evidence we have, the US was a nation populated by either a lot of very tipsy people, or a lot of sober people and some very drunk people.

[0] http://www.teachushistory.org/second-great-awakening-age-ref... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_Antebellum_America#...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by zeteo on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:11PM (#13536342)
> “Liquor at that time,” recalled the Massachusetts carpenter Elbridge Boyden, “was used as commonly as the food we ate.”

And it made perfect sense in the age before refrigeration. Since alcohol doesn't spoil it's a great way to achieve long-term storage of calories from grains (beer, whiskey) or fruit (wine, brandy). For many centuries the French peasant would be sustained in his daily labors by the bottle of wine in his pocket.

In rural areas alcohol was a necessity, not a luxury. Part of the reason why the young Federal government ran into trouble imposing what it thought was a tax on vice [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by bane on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:41PM (#13537393)
There were also classes of alcohol that we just don't really bother much with today. For example Small beer and various other low alcohol beers were very common and helped prevent sickness from drinking tainted water.

One of my friends is a very dedicated home brewer, and he's recently taken an interest in a lost class of 2-3% beers that have fallen out of fashion.

There's also traditional ferments like Kvass or Brottrunk which are made from bread, have <1% alcohol and are very drinkable and can also make the foundation for a soup or other foods which need some quick flavor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by pavel_lishin on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:11PM (#13537562)
I had completely forgotten that kvass is a bit alcoholic on my last trip to visit my family, until I realized that I was having a very good time indeed having started drinking it when I woke up early in the morning.

Makes me wonder a bit about just how much of that stuff I drank as a kid, because I certainly don't remember moderating myself then, either.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by rdtsc on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:30PM (#13537977)
Kefir can have a bit of alcohol in it as well. Not sure how much industrially produced kind has. But brewed at home would have some.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by wruza on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:15AM (#13540821)
Both kvass and kefir can save your morning after yesterday's zastolie (and the entire day if otherwise you would start it with more alcoholic drinks).
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by magic_beans on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:15AM (#13539829)
Kombucha as well.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by kagamine on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @02:33AM (#13539049)
Not sure if it is still available, but in the UK there was a stout called Sweetheart Stout that was brewed to 2.5% alcohol making it like a very sweet Guinness. It is lovely, used to drink it all the time 20 years ago.

Iirc it was in earlier times marketed to ladies and also pregnant women because it is high in Vitamin B12(?) or something. Legend had it you wouldn't get rickets (bendy legs) if you drank sweet stout.

In Scandinavia lett øl (low alcohol beer) is in all the supermarkets, this is 2.5% alcohol pilsner.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by jamesfmilne on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:43AM (#13540614)
My mother claims she used to drink that whilst she was pregnant with me.

Would explain a lot :D

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Graham24 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:12AM (#13540426)
That sounds a bit like Mackeson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackeson_Stout
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by l0b0 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:27PM (#13546023)
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by kagamine on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:09AM (#13548940)
Can't get that sent to me outside the UK and now I am sad and it's all your fault. But now I have another reason to visit the homeland, so I am happy and that's your fault too.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by thetwentyone on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:00AM (#13541183)
In Colorado, non-liquor stores are capped at selling alcohol at 3.2%. Varieties in many types of beer were sold, some specially made for this type of distribution. We called them "grocery store beers".
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by santaclaus on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:33PM (#13537668)
> One of my friends is a very dedicated home brewer, and he's recently taken an interest in a lost class of 2-3% beers that have fallen out of fashion.

Isn't that what a session beer is supposed to be?

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by TylerE on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:43PM (#13537725)
Sessions are typically 3-5% ABV.

Not sure there is anything commercially marketed that is under 3% ABV, really.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by dagw on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @03:41AM (#13539318)
Not sure there is anything commercially marketed that is under 3% ABV, really.

In Norway and Sweden beer under 2.8% is is exempt from most licencing and excise regulations. So there is large market for that sort of beer.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by SFJulie on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:33AM (#13539678)
Personal experience, yes.

The ancester of carbonated soda, called «limonade» in France and given to kids cannot be naturally obtained without alchohol.

As an experience I did make some (water, citrus, a little exposition to air (thus yeast)) and anaeroby fermentation will give you the expected result: - an acid, sugarish refreshing drink - with bubbles, - and ~2-3% alcohol

My experiments confirm what is said on a chemistry forum. http://forums.futura-sciences.com/chimie/410527-limonade-art...

Kids, were given alcohol in the old days, no wonder why they were calmer, lol.

My look at older german polish recipies makes me suspicious that a common drink of the old ages their the «brotbier» (you put old bread in a jar of water and let it ferment in anaerobic conditions) should also have been alcoholized.

And yes without Chaptal (17g/l of sugar = 1% alcohol, how to dope your alcohol fast) (not Gay Lussac) obtaning strong alcohol is tough.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by WorldMaker on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:02AM (#13541713)
The ability to carbonate water (for soda) without yeast/alcohol is very much a relatively modern industrial invention.

Root beer and Ginger ale are named as such for the obvious reason.

My small disappointment in the current fad of "hard" sodas is that they are often malt beverages/"distilled" beer at ~5% alcohol rather than, say, traditional recipes in the ~2-3% range.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by SFJulie on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:04AM (#13541738)
make yours :) it is easy and fun.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by dpark on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:49PM (#13538057)
I don't think I've ever seen a session beer for sale under 4%. Most seem to be between 4.5 and 4.9, just low enough to be "less than 5".
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by gabemart on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @02:40AM (#13539088)
That's a real shame, they're ubiquitous in Scotland; any brand's "70 shilling" will be in the 3.5% range. Belhaven Best is also extremely common, and that's 3.2%.

It's common in England for pubs to have at least one bitter that is below 4%.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by david-given on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:23AM (#13539653)
They're awesome, too. Tonnes of flavour, huge variety, thoroughly drinkable, and low enough in alcohol that you can usually get an extra pint in. There are what the USians call microbreweries everywhere and any decent pub is likely to have a local session beer, frequently very good.

I live in Zürich now. The local lager's okay, but it's all lager, and it's all 5%, which is the upper limit of what I like. I miss good old fashioned ale.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by saiya-jin on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:41AM (#13540601)
if you mean stuff you can buy in shops like COOP, then local lager is piece of s__t. if you mean some local small breweries then it might be different
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by jacobush on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:26AM (#13551728)
But ... try Falcon Bayersk and tell me you don't like it.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by jacobush on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:24AM (#13551707)
3.5% beers, if well made well, to my taste are better than the stronger ones of the same brand.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by ch4s3 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:32AM (#13538534)
You'll find a handful in the 3-4% range if you look around a nice beer shop.Look for session IPAs, "table beers", and maybe some Goozes.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by dpark on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:49AM (#13538596)
I've not checked for "table beers" and don't know what that actually is. Goses aren't my style. IPAs are, and I've seen few if any session IPAs in person that hit at or below 4%. Just looking at the top 10 session IPAs that show up when I search for "session" on Untappd, I see only one below 4%, Even Keel at 3.8%. So I guess someone's making them, but no one's making them at 3 and almost no one is making them below 4.

Although honestly I don't think I'd want a session IPA at 4 or below. Most (though not all) session IPAs are pretty terrible at ~4.5. They'd probably taste like watery trash at 3.5.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by wahnfrieden on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @04:52AM (#13539555)
Btw, I think OP meant Gueze / Gueuze lambic which is quite different from Gose though similar in many ways too.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by phillc73 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:56AM (#13539994)
There are many in this range in Australia, where they are known as Light Beers and have almost 10% market share. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Australia#Market_chara...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by narag on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:33PM (#13536947)
Soft beer I can believe it. But whisky? I don't think so. After a little physical activity, a headache is what you can expect.

BTW, was beer popular in USA at that time?

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:52PM (#13537071)
Cider was the most common drink.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by brokenmasonjars on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:28PM (#13537653)
I may be wrong but I remember learning some where some years ago that cider was less in alcoholic content. Sometimes I travel to Ithaca which has a cider store that sells a number of European ciders. Surprisingly a lot are 2.5% to 5.4%.

Mead was also drank but I'm not sure it's popularity. If you read Food in England by Dorethy Hartley; beet wine, turnip wine and carrot wine were all being made too. I have a recipe for parsley root wine that I keep meaning to try whenever I have them fresh from the garden.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by SFJulie on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:43AM (#13539723)
The amount of alcohol nowadays in cider is due to legislation.

My cider without chaptalisation can go to ~6%. (100g/l is what modern apple yields in sugar this 100g/17 ~ 5.8%)

Actual cider makers are owned by a few brands that can make cheaper cider that are horribly sugarish since the 90s.

Old «farmers» cider were more acid, astringent and strong.

No need to say, that farmers were no idiots and that the knowledge of adding more sugar to higher the degree of alcohol is known since the XIXth.

I have add access to «cidre fermier of the grandpa» that was 12%.

Opaque, whitish and making you cough.

That is how my cider is looking like, and how home made and «illegally sold under the mantel» ciders were.

The government is trying to kill the taste of traditional products for the profit of big shitty brands. But the gustative resistance is all over the country since decades.

We will not bow down, and will keep on making bread, hams, alcohol, choucroute, pickles and jams in our homes.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:51AM (#13541111)
I believe this book may be relevant to your post: "Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal: War Stories from the Local Food Front"

https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Want-Do-Illegal-Stories/dp...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by SFJulie on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:03AM (#13541716)
I was a tad exaggerating. However living in Canada made me scared of how much the federal govt was looking so victorian.

They are scared of everything, making blood wurst the traditionnal way (by taking blood, spices and milk) is forbidden!

They almost pasteurize everything, even the cheeses !

And god curse the queen, Québec has awesome cheeses better than most UK and germany.

Cheesus God! I don't want to take part in the global fight against tasty food!

Tripes, boundins, alcohols, bagels, couscous, kebab, pierogi, pizza, bo bun and so much more should be the symbol of a new generation, giving up on flags for the profit of what should really unite us: happy fooding!

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by WorldMaker on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:21AM (#13541963)
In the US there are definitely still a lot of laws on the books outright prohibiting the brewing of ciders and the sale of ciders. Most of these laws are leftovers of American prohibition and its teetotaling war on all alchohol. Some of the anti-cider laws were the first on the books and the strictest and hardest to overturn in the way that marijuana laws are similar the vanguard of America's laws in place from its war on drugs.

Alcoholic cider is one of the easiest things to homebrew, and was indeed something of a common beverage. To my grandfathers and great-grandfathers, brewing cider was an act of home rebellion, a reminder of how simple and commonplace alcohol can be. During the American Prohibition cider brewing was seen as a slippery slope to bootlegging and moonshine. (Partly because it was.)

I think America is still recovering from a lot of Prohibition-era anti-cider bias. There are still a lot of people that seem to think that making home ciders is dangerous and a quick way to die, even as there is an incredible movement overall in homebrewing beers these days. In some states, from what I recall, it may even still be the case that homebrewing cider is technically illegal.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by SFJulie on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:53PM (#13543056)
My immigrant (Belgian) great father also arrived in a anti cider era (in France).

No resistance, he just did what stubborn persons are making ; his own cider at industrial scale for him. I think he actually ended up being a legal moonshiner (bouilleur de crue).

Incidently, I am gonna point at Vermont and Québec that are 2 of my favourite north American regions because they so love great food :

- Québec cider industry is making awesome apple wine, and some heirs of french traditions are going back to making french ciders (I prefer the québecan apple wine) that are delightful;

- Vermont and Québec are pushing towards high quality food;

- Washington wines deserves to be given a thumb up for their quality (ontario/niagara wines are interesting too);

- Québec is beginning to produce amazing high quality stuff in Gaspésie (charcuterie, sparkling wines, veggies...)

My staying in Canada has been enlightened by the discovery of great food coming from unexpected places, and the rebirth of old awesome traditions. I even tasted close to medieval french recipes and it actually brought tears to my eyes. (When it comes to food, I have a problem)

And I also remember eating in PA in an amish place where food was way above standards.

The cliché of America being an underdeveloped gastronomical country is a lie. Even the tacos in Miami (FL) bouibouis are awesome.

United tastes of (diverse) foods (and alcohol)!

We cannot hate people with food we want to eat!

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @01:03PM (#13543174)
Which cider store in Ithaca are you referring to? I live here and I can only think of Cellar D'or and the larger store near the FedEx on state street.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by brokenmasonjars on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @12:24AM (#13587293)
Cellar D'or. I'll have to check out the one near the Fedex some time.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by jhbadger on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:11PM (#13537559)
And for stronger stuff, Applejack (which is distilled cider; often by the primitive freeze-distilling method).
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by guard-of-terra on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:33PM (#13536949)
Can human body actually make use of alcohol as energy? Because I was fairly sure we can only make energy of something that breaks down to glucose, which alcohol obviously doesn't.

Not so sure already.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by spqr0a1 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:19PM (#13537261)
Humans absolutely can use ethanol for energy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_metabolism We net 7 kcal/g from ethanol, (compare to 9 kcal/g fat, or 4 kcal/g carbohydrate/protein.) There's several intermediate steps, but it's pretty efficient and a dense source of energy.

Much of lipid and protein catabolism also does not rely on glucose as an intermediate. Everything that doesn't get converted to glucose first will get converted to acetyl-CoA (glucose catabolites turn into this too) for use in the Krebs cycle.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by BjoernKW on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @04:09AM (#13539422)
Absolutely. Bavarian monks famously invented Bock beer (very rich, high wort density, 7% ABV and above) as nourishment during Lent when they were not allowed to take in solid food.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by narag on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:40PM (#13536984)
I've read somewhere that beer was used instead of water in areas where water wasn't safe. IIRC, beer has non-alcoholic calories also. I don't believe one can live on spirits, but it could make you forget you are hungry :)

Edit: I should have read TFA before commenting.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by r00fus on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @03:02AM (#13539170)
Old saying that my wife's French grandpa liked to say - "I don't drink water, it makes me rust".
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by pouetpouet on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:20AM (#13539637)
Heard it as "Water make iron stomachs rust". Usually everyday beer as a replacement of water was smallbeer/bière de table with 2-3% alcohol.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by maxerickson on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:59PM (#13537110)
Yes, humans can derive energy from alcohol.

The system that eventually extracts energy from glucose (the citric acid cycle, also called the Krebs cycle) is involved, after the liver converts the ethanol.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by crooked-v on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:43PM (#13536997)
All the calories from the grains or fruits used to make alcoholic drinks don't just evaporate into the ether! "Lite" beers with low calorie contents are a fairly new invention.

If you look back far enough, some early brewing, like that of ancient Egypt, made beer so thick that mugs would often come with straws built into them so people could get past the thick layer of almost-solid grains that would float to the top.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by sndean on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:50PM (#13537059)
Ethanol is broken down and eventually fed into the TCA cycle. Some useful byproducts are also made. So, yeah, you get some energy out of ethanol. It's a pretty inefficient way to get energy though.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by hinkley on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:04PM (#13537524)
It's an efficient way to get calories up until the year's first harvest though.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by intrasight on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:50PM (#13537452)
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by marssaxman on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @01:45AM (#13538856)
Those quantities don't sound enormous - nowhere near enough that being "tossed off their butts" or "very tipsy" could have been the typical experience. Four gallons of pure ethanol per year works out to 4*128/365 = 1.4 ounces per day. That would have most likely been consumed in the form of beer or cider, and even if we assume a relatively modest 5% ABV, that's only 28 fluid ounces of alcoholic beverage per day - less than two pints. That's nowhere near enough to get plastered as a regular occurrence - that's just a culture where it's normal that the beverage you consume with your meals happens to be moderately alcoholic.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by selectodude on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:51AM (#13540656)
Three year olds aren't crushing shots every night, even then. That number was per person in the US at the time. You could probably safely double that number. Four pints per night is putting in work.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:44PM (#13552577)
Thank you! I did not have the citation for the actual number of drinkers and non-drinkers, so I just included the info as I found it. Interpreting the data, we can see that those that drank did so heavily, though other commenters indicate that it may be similar to current alcohol abuse patterns as I elude to in my last sentence.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Groxx on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:57PM (#13536690)
Could it be explained with the same imbalance as we currently have, assuming this is accurate? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think...

tl;dr: the top three 10% brackets consume ~1 "drink" per day, then ~2/day, and the top consumes ~10/day. That top bracket they summarize as consuming "a little more than four-and-a-half 750 ml bottles of Jack Daniels" each week.

---

edit: Which is (750x4.5x0.4)/7=193ml of pure alcohol per day, or ((750x4.5)/7)/(44ml per shot)=11 shots per day. So it doesn't quite, but if you raise the ground floor of half the population to one or two per day instead of zero, it might balance out.

750: ml/jack daniels bottle. 4.5: bottles/week. 0.4: 80 proof = 0.4 alcohol content. 44ml = 1.5floz

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by twic on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:13PM (#13536823)
> ~1.4 shots of Everclear or 3.5 shots of modern 80 proof whiskey per day

Or a couple of pints. So that's lunch - did they not drink in the evenings in those days?

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by hinkley on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:06PM (#13537538)
Well, there were a lot of young children in those days too. They drank a lot less (I can't figure out how to say that without sounding sarcastic. They drank, but not much).
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by pavel_lishin on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:12PM (#13537568)
I drank kvass as a kid in Russia all the time in the summer.

I don't know which is worse for a kid, on average: a light buzz on most days, or getting sick from drinking tainted water.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by wavefunction on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:21PM (#13537928)
Probably the tainted water. With tainted water, you're going to vomit or experience diarrhea which leaves you dehydrated. What do you drink then to rehydrate, more tainted water?
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by brokenmasonjars on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:30PM (#13537661)
Perhaps night time being a time to sleep instead of work was a good factor considering electricity and all not coming about until later. Look at the amish and when they go to bed and wake up.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:46PM (#13552601)
Umm, who is drinking 2+ pints for lunch every single day of the year and then some more in the evenings? I'm pretty sure that is a lot to drink.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Pxtl on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:01PM (#13537825)
I have to wonder how it impacted human evolution. I mean, evolutionary psychology (for what little good the field is) usually dwells on "savannah ancestors" and whatnot, but centuries of being perpetually drunk is going to have an impact too.

Not just in terms of tolerance, but in terms of mental conditions. If the ground-state of the human mind is tipsy, then is sobriety functionally an abnormal state we're maladapted for?

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by wtbob on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:53PM (#13538077)
> If the ground-state of the human mind is tipsy, then is sobriety functionally an abnormal state we're maladapted for?

I vaguely recall reading that the ancient Persians would make decisions twice: once sober, and once drunk. If their decisions were the same, then they knew that they'd decided correctly. Of course, they ended up being conquered by a bunch of teetotallers …

No reference, I'm afraid. It could be very well be total bunk.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by martinpw on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @02:23AM (#13539012)
Apparently it is a quote from Herodutus, so the reference dates back a long way but that does not necessarily mean it is true:

http://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/09/persian-str...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by pm90 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @01:28PM (#13543418)
To be fair, they held on their own for centuries of constant warfare with Greco-Roman civilization, which at certain times consisted of the largest, most powerful political entities.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by FabHK on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:28AM (#13541399)
Pity today's Iran is rather more strict about it. In Teheran, can only get alcohol legally in the Armenian community centre, AFAIK: red wine, white wine, or vodka.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by flukus on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @01:23AM (#13538741)
I think any alcohol dependence would be much more recent than that, I doubt asian glow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction) would be a thing of we were getting drunk on the Savannah.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by hmsln on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:24AM (#13539865)
Actually, some monkeys develop alcohol dependence in the wild (they get their alcohol from ripe fermenting fruits).

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/chimpanzees-...

Here's also an extract from a BBC Nature documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk

Apparently, the monkeys are divided among heavy drinkers, occasional drinkers or teetootalers in proportions that are roughly equal to those among human beings.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by marchenko on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:41AM (#13541025)
The "Asian flush" response is the result of a mutation that is believed to have arisen in Asia, and is relatively uncommon in Europe and Africa. So the ancestral (savannah) state may have been tipsy indeed. The derived allele appears to have been positively selected in Asia, possibly because it is protective against alcohol dependency, but the selective pressure hasn't been conclusively established.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:50PM (#13552652)
Human evolution has been hand in hand with ethanol, likely mammalian evolution. But those incidents of alcohol abuse only would occur when fruit was fermenting on the vine/tree as this youtube video humorously demonstrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50tlF3kGbT4

Also, many 'native' peoples in the Americas, Australia, and Oceania have large problems with alcohol abuse. Large areas of Queensland forbid any ethanol, even for medicinal use, because of these social problems.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Pxtl on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @03:11PM (#13544592)
I guess I was vague - I meant to contrast the "savannah ancestors" fixation of evopsych with considering evolution of humans in the modern era. While normally evolutionary psychology worries about the tens of thousands of years of prehistoric man, the thousands-ish years of drunken modern man would still definitely have an impact.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Houshalter on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:31PM (#13537980)
It could go the other way around too. If these people consumed so much alcohol everyday since childhood, they probably built up a decent tolerance to its effects.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:51PM (#13552666)
Yes, but your liver and heart do not. The early death rates for males in Russia are attributed to alcohol abuse.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by FabHK on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:25AM (#13541375)
Remember, though, to have a "classical" evolutionary impact (i.e. change in gene pool composition), you'd have to have different survival or more precisely procreation rates for different gene endowments.

But I like your way of thinking. As they say, reality is a terminal condition caused by a lack of alcohol, or something something.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Pxtl on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @07:54PM (#13547073)
For example, being obsessively careful would help you survive when drunk, as then you'd only be moderately careful.... whereas a normal person goes from moderately careful to careless when drunk. That's what I mean by "being drunk all the time having an evolutionary impact" - I wonder if this could explain being obsessive or overcautious. That is, mild forms of OCD existing as an adaptation to an alcohol-rich environment.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by maxerickson on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:11PM (#13536341)
4 shots of whiskey is quite a lot but for many people wouldn't lead to anything resembling drunk if consumed over a period of several hours.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by cypherpunks01 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:14PM (#13536363)
Yep! I think that's what commenter's statement is intended to mean: "the US was a nation populated by either a lot of very tipsy people, or a lot of sober people and some very drunk people".
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by maxerickson on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:16PM (#13536382)
But even tipsy wouldn't be the case for people that were drinking such amounts everyday.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by paulddraper on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:06PM (#13536769)
"Buzzed"?
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by lovich on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:35PM (#13537680)
If I drank a shots worth of alcohol spaced put over 3 hours, I would not feel anything and I am not a particularly large person
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by WalterSear on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:25PM (#13538223)
And if you did it every day, you wouldn't feel it at all. But, your liver would.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by taneq on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:45AM (#13538584)
Really? Most health guidelines suggest drinking no more than 2-4 standard drinks per day. I'd be very surprised if one standard drink per day, spread over a long period, caused any measurable harm.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by corin_ on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:51AM (#13541612)
Guidelines vary by country, but 2-4/day is high at least by current UK and US guidelines.

In the UK it was lowered a year ago to a recommended 14 units per week (UK units - "14 units is equivalent to a bottle and a half of wine or five pints of export-type lager (5% abv) over the course of a week") [1]. CDC website says "According to the Dietary Guidelines for Americans,1 moderate alcohol consumption is defined as having up to 1 drink per day for women and up to 2 drinks per day for men. This definition is referring to the amount consumed on any single day and is not intended as an average over several days." [2]

Actually, there's a Wikipedia page with various countries' guidelines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recommended_maximum_intake_of_...

[1] http://www.nhs.uk/news/2016/01January/Pages/New-alcohol-advi... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/faqs.htm#moderate

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by maxerickson on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @07:56AM (#13540314)
The CDC warns that moderate consumption increases cancer risk:

For some conditions, like some cancers, the risk increases even at very low levels of alcohol consumption (less than 1 drink).

https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/moderate-drinking.ht...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:59PM (#13552765)
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Current average alcohol use in the US is very high, but that is due to the skew caused by alcoholics. The median use of alcohol is more 'reasonable'. Other commenters cite the current rates and usage stats. I assume that the 1820's usage patterns are very similar to current one, but I have no data to prove that, hence the last sentence. That said, I think that the point still stands that they were pretty sloshed. Current usage patterns tease this out : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think... . Today, per that chart, the average American drinks ~1.4 'drinks' per day, not 1.4 shots of pure ethanol. The 1820s were a lush time.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by BurningFrog on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:56AM (#13541147)
Or people who were sober most of the time but rip roaring drunk several times a week.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by jlarocco on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:02PM (#13537514)
> That 1820s number, if you do the math, was ~1.4 shots of Everclear or 3.5 shots of modern 80 proof whiskey per day for the average citizen.

3.5 shots of whiskey is about the same amount of alcohol as 3.5 beers. Round up, and it's a couple at lunch and a couple at dinner. Almost nobody's going to get very drunk off that, and a lot (most?) people won't even get tipsy. Factor in that people build up a tolerance to alcohol, and it doesn't seem too bad.

Long term, I'm curious if it's any worse than 4 sodas a day?

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:04PM (#13552814)
Yes, but your liver and heart don't like that much ethanol every couple hours, every day of the year. Russian men die because, it is thought, of their drinking culture.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/russian-men-lo...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by truthexposer on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:05PM (#13537152)
It would be interesting to see the epigentic effects of generations of alcohol use. Kind of like Terence McKenna's "stoped ape" theory.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Pxtl on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:03PM (#13537832)
Exactly. Besides physiological adaptations like resiliant livers, what about mental adaptations? I mean, are drinker-evolved humans more naturally obsessive and careful and self-doubting to compensate for the clumsiness and overconfidence of drink?
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by solidsnack9000 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:37AM (#13539694)
I wonder if there is not a social evolution attendant to drunkenness. If people are regularly drunk, it means there is a time set aside for excusable inappropriateness. Daily life can be fairly strict because there is a "playtime" that is wild and unaccountable. People learn to express some parts of themselves -- their negative feelings and maybe their true enthusiasms -- under the cover of drink.
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:02AM (#13541190)
There's also an environmental aspect at play. Italians drink a lot of wine but I have never seen a drunk Italian, not once.

The English, on the other hand, get completely hammered.

The Romans had trouble instilling their calm Mediterranean cafe culture in the gray and frigid binge-drinking north. It's an environmentally inspired culture difference that goes back thousands of years, so it's hard to draw a conclusion about drinking and humans as a whole.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by samirillian on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:02PM (#13537124)
I did do the math. At 1.5 oz, there are 85 shots in a gallon. 85 * 4 gallons = 340 shots. 340 /.40 (80 proof alcohol) = 850 850/365 = ~2.3 shots of 40% alcohol. But then 1.5 oz shot is pretty small and my knob Creek is 50% :)

Edit: so it's 3.5 oz, not shots. Also, mmmmm whiskey.

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by Balgair on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:01PM (#13552781)
Good catch, thank you!
Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by dahauns on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:38AM (#13539700)
3.5 gal would be ~13l.

Sure, more than today, but not remarkably so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_c...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by MichaelMoser123 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @04:41AM (#13539533)
the article talks about the early modern period - that period would end with the 19th century; They certainly weren't too sober in London town - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Craze

But at this point in time Britain had a rather high standard of living (compared with the rest of the world), so go figure.

https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/users/Allen/unpublished/econin...

Re:Were Early Modern People Perpetually Drunk? (2016) by FabHK on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:35AM (#13541461)
Reminds me, the military defence line across the Kowlon peninsula to protect (then British) Hong Kong from Japanese invasion during WW II was known as "The Gin Drinkers Line" :-)

(Unfortunately, the line fell in about two days, and HK in less than two weeks, Christmas 1941...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Drinkers_Line