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Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by increment_i on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:04PM (#11655499)
Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up. I didn't realize this until I had children myself. I remember reaching my teenage years and cursing the dull, boring, culturally bankrupt suburbian neighborhood I grew up in. I left the minute it became feasible.

Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, parks, and decent schools. I realize now that it was never my parents' responsibility to raise me in a place I would find interesting, but to give me the best possible start in life they could. If I can give my kids a similar start, I hope they can safely reach the age where they can go off and experience the adventure of the big cities and abroad when they're ready, just like I did.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TulliusCicero on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:35PM (#11655659)
> Fast forward to now, and I'm right back in the 'burbs, in a house where my kids have access to safe streets, parks, and decent schools.

You seem to be confused. The article is saying that American suburbs are particularly poorly designed, not that suburbs as a general rule are terrible.

Here is Gröbenzell, a suburb just west of Munich that's surrounded by farmland: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%B6benzell,+Germany/@...

In the states, such a suburb would be super-low-density and car-dominated, with all the negative features the author describes. There in Germany, Gröbenzell actually has a population density 30% higher than Seattle, and the whole town is within easy walking or biking distance of an S-Bahn station that gets you to the center of Munich in 20 minutes.

It's possible to have suburban towns that are still walkable, that still allow kids some measure of independence, that do not kill any sense of place. In the US, we've just chosen not to create them.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by unethical_ban on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:53PM (#11655768)
I believe it is the fault of bureaucrats over-zoning. I would love to have a pub and a market next to every neighborhood. I love the idea of the Post Office providing basic financial services such as checking and money transfers. Let's make it as easy as possible to have peaceful neighborhoods AND retail/business in the same area. Dangerous or loud industrial businesses still need away from residence, but other than that... loosen up!
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Apocryphon on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:46PM (#11656066)
Amazing, isn't it? In a country where we are told is all about choice and having it our way, we're put in so many situations where we have diametrically opposite and equally unappealing choices, the tyranny of OR, instead of room for compromise.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:15PM (#11656484)
Indeed, it's quite odd that the suburban sprawl model is held up as a triumph of choice and freedom, as if the market has spoken in favour of the one true way to build an entire country.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by matwood on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:00PM (#11655803)
This is exactly the kind of neighborhood (suburb?) I live in. I can walk/drive/bicycle to the nearby grocery/pub/cleaners. The city is ~1/2 hour drive though.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Maarten88 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:11PM (#11656720)
I live in a suburb in the Netherlands and recently visited a school friend who now lives in a nice US suburb. We both have families with kids about the same age. We compared our living conditions.

His beautiful wooden house stands on ten times the area as mine, with a very nice garden and ample parking space. It looks very nice. But my concrete/brick house is bigger inside, and much better constructed. Parking space for visitors can be an issue with me.

Our kids go to school by bike. His kids can't. Although the school is not far, biking is too unsafe. They go by bus. The school even closes when there is snow, because that would make even the bus too unsafe!

Our kids play in the street with their friends, they walk up to each others houses spontaneously when they want to play. My friends' kids had fewer friends, had to set playdates, and played more online.

The conversation we had confirmed many more things from the article.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by notlisted on Monday May 09, 2016 @08:37AM (#11659301)
It all depends on where you live Maarten. I'm from Holland. Moved to a 'burb' three years ago after nearly 20 years in NYC. We picked a town where some of the things you mention are still a reality (spontaneous play, kids walk to school in groups, biking is difficult because... hills). Meanwhile, I know that the situation you sketch isn't the reality anymore in large parts of Holland either (many more cars, fewer new developments, not enough kids, many old people).

The article brings up many good points, but the suburb outlined in the article describes a very specific kind. Having lived in a metropolitan US area for 19 years, I relish the lack of noise, the extra space (1 acre) and suburban life in general.

PS It's a little disingenuous to mention the bus/snow situation. Snow days here (5 max) are rare and typically well-warranted. You really cannot compare a 5cm "snowstorm" in The Netherlands with the 1+ feet (40cm) that fell overnight last winter.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Maarten88 on Monday May 09, 2016 @06:34PM (#11663767)
I'm sure the suburb you live in is much nicer than the suburbs pictured in the article. My friends' neighborhood certainly is. I think the US standard of living, if you're privileged enough to be able to afford it, is very high.

Still, if your house is on an acre of area, that must have consequences. It makes infrastructure more expensive and increases distances. Do the roads in your neighborhood have walkways? How many college/middle schools can your kids choose from? Is there community life / sports clubs / shopping / restaurants other than pizza and burgers reachable without car?

I mentioned the bus/snow situation because my friend told me the school had closed for something like 20 days last year and had to extend classes into summer to make up the time. And both of us have fond memories biking to school for 10km in -admittedly Dutch- snowstorms, having fun. The US attitude towards risk still feels silly to me.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by notlisted on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @09:51AM (#11675230)
The funny thing is that monthly living expenses (mortage + taxes) are less than our tiny apartment in NYC. Schools are great, which is why we moved, and cheap in context (compare $16k/yr in taxes to $36k+/yr for a 6yo in NYC private school).

Roads do have more potholes than I'd like, indeed expensive to fix/maintain. We do have walkways (this is not Atlanta/Midwest). One middle school, one high school, colleges are elsewhere (ie plenty). Loads of community/sports stuff (too much). Shopping nearby, but some requires a car (you get used to it). Note: it's actually a myth that the burbs have bad food (at least in relatively wealthy towns on the East Coast). Better than anything offered in my old home town in Holland (I do miss my 'patatje oorlog'). Obviously happy as a clam here. Don't think I could ever get used to living right next to my neighbors again ('rijtjeshuis')

Totally agree with you on the perception of risk. It's a shame. It wasn't always like that. I blame cell phones and helicopter parents.

PS I don't miss biking 10km in my rain suit (regenpak) Gezamenlijk afzien? ;-)

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TulliusCicero on Monday May 09, 2016 @12:13AM (#11657572)
Yeah, I'd LOVE to live in a Dutch-style suburb that was great for biking and walking. Alas, my employer has no dev offices in the Netherlands. :(
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by op00to on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:07PM (#11656201)
Those tight, transit attached suburbs exist. Look to inner ring suburbs around northeastern cities. I live a in a safe, quiet neighborhood with parks, great schools, interesting restaurants, etc. I'm 10 minute walk from a 24 hour metro that takes me to a major urban center in less than 20 minutes.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by vasilipupkin on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:46PM (#11656061)
Don't forget that US is really big and has lots of different types of suburbs. For example, Chicago has quite a few dense walkable suburbs with easy access to public transport
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:38PM (#11656577)
Chicago has basically two of those. :)

But if you relax the public transportation constraint, I agree: the list of Chicago suburbs that defy most of the characterizations in this post is pretty large.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by vasilipupkin on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:34PM (#11656801)
Oak Park, Evanston, Wilmette, pretty much all of north shore
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:38PM (#11656814)
Sure, you can say there are four such suburbs: Oak Park/River Forest and Evanston/Wilmette. To me, each suburb pair is essentially one area, but I can't defend that argument with a straight face here. (I live in Oak Park).

We also have a lot of walkable, tree-lined suburbs without huge setbacks and, with the exception of blighted commercial drags like Butterfield and Roosevelt, few of the traffic setbacks and parking lot hells that this post talks about.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by dkuntz2 on Monday May 09, 2016 @04:39PM (#11662967)
In Oak Park at least that's only because they kept getting rid of the parking lots, to the extent that there's now town valet parking (which is insane to me).
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by criddell on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:53PM (#11656104)
> There in Germany, Gröbenzell actually has a population density 30% higher than Seattle

Population density doesn't always tell the whole story. Portland, OR has a lower population density than Beaverton (one of the surrounding cities that is basically a suburb).

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by rayiner on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:27PM (#11655614)
I doubt the suburbs are actually safer. I once did the math. If you add up shooting deaths and driving deaths, the rich suburb where I grew up is about as risky as one of the north side Chicago neighborhoods. And of course upper middle class white teens are going to be at lower than average risk of getting shot in the city, but at higher than average risk of wrapping themselves around a tree in the suburbs.

As for safe streets and good schools, it's a product of segregationist urban planning, not any intrinsic qualities of cities versus suburbs. We don't build public housing out in the suburbs, we do it in the cities. Our lack of transit makes it impossible for poor people to drive around in the suburbs. So our city schools are 90% low-income and have the problems that come with concentrated poverty.

Note that in places like Paris, the situation is reversed. Rich people live in the city (or out in the country). The suburbs are where the poor are herded into ghettos.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by ef4 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:22PM (#11655912)
> I doubt the suburbs are actually safer.

You are correct. The average American city dweller now experiences a lower crime rate than in suburbia. (That is an average, obviously some cities are dangerous and some suburbs are very safe.)

> Rich people live in the city

Yes, this is the long-run, natural state of cities. It's why they exist in the first place. They are where economic activity is most concentrated.

American has had a weird 60 years where we inverted that situation, but it is already beginning to revert back to historically normal.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:21PM (#11656266)
It could be SUV syndrome.

SUVs feel safer, and they're sold as a safe choice - even though in practice they're dangerous cars.

In the same way, suburbia has always been sold as a safe option, even though politically, culturally, socially, and ecologically, the effects are devastating.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by kingkawn on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:36PM (#11655668)
Lol at calling the north side risky
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by cowsandmilk on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:14PM (#11655867)
the point is that the same demographics of middle class and wealthy people in the city are just as safe as they are in the suburbs. That is the north side vs. Chicago suburbs.

Nothing about the south side of Chicago being "risky" is an inherent result of being in a city.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by kingkawn on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:44PM (#11656043)
You're right, making the entire comparison pretty pointless from the start, hence my original point, lol at calling the north side risky.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by throwawaybookst on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:31PM (#11655643)
The choice between "dense urban core" and "suburb" is distinctly American. Especially in Europe, city (in the sense of "not suburb or rural" != center of a large (1M+) population.

In America, any region with a population the order of 100k or less is basically a shopping area surrounded by suburbs. The same is not true in Europe.

In Europe, you can definitely find walkable, breathable, friendly cities while still living in an area that is safer than (and has a smaller population than) the typical Chicago suburban area.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by _delirium on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:59PM (#11656672)
I don't think it's a distinctly American term. The distinction between the "city" and "suburbs" or "commuter belt" is pretty common in Europe too, at least in cities that actually have such a pattern, especially with a radial commuter-rail network and clearly defined commercial center. For example I don't think anybody that lives in Ishøj or Brøndby is under the impression that they live in an independent "city"; they live in a suburb of Copenhagen, whose main virtue is that it's cheaper than Copenhagen but has good access via the S-train.

A large proportion of the commuter belt of London, Paris, Marseilles, Lyon, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Brussels, Rome, etc. are places like that, some nicer and some more depressing, but definitely suburbs that exist mainly to house people who commute in to the city.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by vasilipupkin on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:49PM (#11656085)
I disagree. Typical Chicago suburban area is safer than Europe. If you exclude homicides, most of which happen on the south side of Chicago, Europe has a lot more crime
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:11PM (#11656469)
Indeed; in Europe, you can find the same reproduced at the village and hamlet level, too.

It's a density issue, at heart. Any US "city" (if it should be called that) of 100K-500K occupies 10x-20x the surface area that it would in most parts of the world, removing much of the cohesion that leads us to call places cities or towns in the first place.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:57PM (#11656663)
I think you're going to get in trouble with generalizations like "any US city", or even "any US city of 100k-500k". Can you be more specific about the faux-cities you're referring to, rather than nerd-baiting me to come up with a list of cities that defy your criteria?
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:21PM (#11656749)
I should know better than to use words like "any" with programmers, it's true.

In response, I started compiling a list, but then I realised I can't think of a counterexample. "Any" might be just about right. Do you know of one?

I'm thinking of places like Indianapolis, Fairfax, Macon (GA), almost all college towns I've been to...

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:23PM (#11656758)
The one that sprang immediately to mind was Ann Arbor, Michigan, because I used to live there. But I can come up with more, if you like.

Your argument is that mid-sized US cities with densities comparable to European cities are rare, and that this causes pathology. That sounds intuitively defensible, because America definitely has more space to play with for its cities than Europe. But let's try to be specific.

What's a model European city, so we can compare its density to some set of American cities?

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:29PM (#11656784)
I spent my middle and high school years in Athens, GA. It would not ordinarily be seen as a target for sprawl-bashing, given its ostensibly compact nature. And it's true, the downtown and campus are fused into something fairly livable.

However, as usual, 90% of the population doesn't live in that tiny core, but instead in the same kind of low-density layout one can find anywhere in America. While I haven't been to Ann Arbor since grade six or so, my recollection is that it's similar; wonderful UMich campus, nice downtown, but most of the Ann Arbor-Ypsilanti area? Same old automobile folk traditions. Am I misremembering?

Re: comparing density --

Density is certainly not the only variable. In my article, I made the point about how proximity/adjacency != walking accessibility. That seems relevant, too. It's probably quite possible to build a place with a decently high density where a car is still required to go anywhere, or a relatively low-density but profoundly pedestrian-friendly hamlet.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:31PM (#11656796)
I know Athens solely from REM and Elephant 6 music. I've never been there.

Saline and Ypsi are suburbs of Ann Arbor.

Ann Arbor itself is mostly walkable, tree-lined, mixed-use, and connected by public transportation.

More than 90% of the population of Ann Arbor lives in Ann Arbor and not Ypsi or Saline. :)

What are the rest of the variables? I'd like to drive to specificity. If there's a set of US midsized cities that defies your characterizations, maybe there's something interesting that ties them together.

I'm certainly not going to deny that there are crappy cities!

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:47PM (#11656850)
I'm not sure I've ever seen a midsized US city that defies my characterisations. I've seen plenty of cases where something progressive-sounding got built within them, but it was an island, unconnected and irrelevant. One mixed-use-sounding shopping strip with attached condos does not sprawl unmake.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:21PM (#11656965)
New Orleans, Minneapolis, Oakland, Berkeley, Providence, Madison. There are lots of cities in that population range, and they aren't islands.

And, I just gave you a specific example that isn't "one mixed use sounding shopping strip with attached condos".

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:34PM (#11657017)
Of those, I've only been to Minneapolis, but I can say with complete certainty that it, too, is a suburban wasteland. Yes, it's got a downtown that's clearly seeing some promise, as is true of numerous cities (even the very same Atlanta), but all in all, it's almost entirely a driving city.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by maxerickson on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:38PM (#11656815)
Biking around Utrecht is a lot more fun than biking around Ann Arbor.

The train to Amsterdam is better than the train to Chicago too (cheaper, faster, more frequent).

It's a bigger city than Ann Arbor, with about twice the density.

I think there are probably enough differences in land use planning that you won't quite be able to have a model city for Europe.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:39PM (#11656817)
The train from Ann Arbor to Chicago? The nearest major metro to Ann Arbor is Detroit, not Chicago. Utrecht is just 30 miles away from Amsterdam. A2 is 250 miles from Chicago.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by maxerickson on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:40PM (#11656824)
Sure, but you'd drive there.

The point of that was that it is connected to a rail network in a way that doesn't exist in Michigan.

Also, when I lived in Ann Arbor, we never cared about going to Detroit itself.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:42PM (#11656828)
Utrecht is about as far from Amsterdam as Orland Park is from Chicago. Train connectivity between Orland and Chicago: also pretty frequent and reliable.

It's a little unfair to compare that particular run to the entire state of Michigan, which would be the 20th largest country in Europe if admitted to the EU, just behind Iceland and ahead of Hungary.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by maxerickson on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:43PM (#11656832)
That's fair, I wasn't in NL long enough to really get a sense for distance. Took the train to Amsterdam once.

(we're both making some edits)

I think the higher density is part of why Europe seems to have more nice cities though. I actually kind of joked about that while I was there, that the publicly owned land in Michigan is roughly the size of the Netherlands (the national and state forests).

With high density, if you "need" cityscape you can just build a rail to where it makes sense to have the city.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by ricardobeat on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:39PM (#11655695)
You are mistaken to believe that only a suburb fits the quiet & safe criteria (or even is the best fit). A traditional european city apartment, with a central courtyard, parking in the back, mixed use zone, is likely safer and just as quiet, yet you are within walking distance of shops, schools and public transport and are still in contact with other humans. I can't imagine a better environment for raising a child (except maybe some kind of dense rural community).
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by patrickburke on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:55PM (#11656400)
This might be true but the option for Americans is the American city or the American suburb. A lot of bloggers who rail against the suburbs juxtapose it against some beautiful European city.

I think there's a handful of American cities with good urbanism, where as Europe has presumably thousands.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by JPKab on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:20PM (#11655900)
I grew up in two different environments:

A small, late 1800's built, pedestrian friendly town in a rural county, and later after moving to another house, in the countryside in the same county. In both places, there was a lot of economic diversity. Kids who lived in trailers socialized and spent the nights out with kids who lived in old houses, and vice versa.

Something I've noticed about people like you whose entire childhood was spent in the typical suburbs of the USA: You associate these awful places and their awful traits with "safety".

"Safe" streets, "safe" parks, "decent" schools: As a person whose raised my kids in an urban environment, the idea that these weren't available (without driving) in our location is a myth that only burbs raised people buy into.

Two years ago I moved to a part of the country (for a job) that has no urban center nearby. I now live in a subdivision. Never again. The neighbors don't interact with, let alone socialize with each other. The streets are vacant, because nobody walks because why would you walk to nowhere. Vacant streets means kids by themselves have no eyeballs on them, so parents don't feel comfortable letting them explore.

The most evil part of it all is the economic segregation. My kids currently go to school with other upper middle class kids. Nobody lives in trailers in their school, or even apartments. No economic diversity translates to minimal racial diversity. It's terrible.

I'm moving away from here in a few months, and I'll never live in one of these shitholes ever again. You can find nice suburbs that aren't laid out in pedestrian hateful designs like the typical ones you see these days.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Zach_the_Lizard on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:40PM (#11656011)
>The most evil part of it all is the economic segregation. My kids currently go to school with other upper middle class kids. Nobody lives in trailers in their school, or even apartments. No economic diversity translates to minimal racial diversity. It's terrible.

That's by design. The suburbs have many laws built to enforce 1950s racial segregation without mentioning race. E.g. your house must be large by law, meaning the poor are entirely excluded. Streets must be built for cars first, then people, because the poor can't afford cars.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:24PM (#11656522)
The irony, at least here in Atlanta, is that crappy car-only suburbs have become considerably more affordable than the re-gentrifying inner city. For what I'm paying here in Midtown, I could get myself a palace 30 minutes out, if I wanted to live the way I described in my article.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Zach_the_Lizard on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:35PM (#11656564)
It's true in most places now. The suburbs are getting poorer as cities are now too difficult to build in and inner suburbs won't allow density, so the poor must go out as gentrification happens. The problem is transportation costs are very high in car centric areas vs. in cities so the poor get even fewer job opportunities.

We could easily solve this by removing the 1950s zoning laws as the poor would not move far, housing prices would be lower, and more walkable development would occur.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by liveoneggs on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:25PM (#11656979)
30 minutes out of midtown on a weekday is still midtown. ;)
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:35PM (#11657022)
That's very true.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by maxsilver on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:41PM (#11656019)
> Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up.

And because it's the only thing affordable. Which does not get mentioned enough.

I would love to put my family in a walkable urban environment. But I don't have a $500k+ housing budget, so anything even remotely urban is completely out of the question, unless it's in the heart of some gangland territory somewhere.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:22PM (#11656512)
It does get a lot of mention. If the overwhelming majority of housing development in the US is of the suburban sprawl type, it stands to reason that the few pockets of non-dilapidated dense urbanism will be expensive.

Amusingly, this is often cited as evidence of suburbia's unique capacity to provide "affordable housing". Scarce things are unaffordable. Who knew!

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by jandrese on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:23PM (#11656756)
Yes, but it is annoying to get these mildly scolding articles about how I'm a terrible person for living in a suburb, when the only places in the city I could afford on my budget are classified as ghettos. They don't even have good transit access because the crushing poverty in that part of the city allowed the transit to crumble.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:34PM (#11656804)
If anyone deserves a scolding, it's governments for their insane 50s-60s zoning laws and perverse incentives offered to developers of sprawl, and whoever else is responsible for the fact that suburbia is the only option you've got.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by ef4 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:37PM (#11655986)
> Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up.

Yes, but people are making their decision based on out-of-date facts. Because in the United States in 2016, mortality risk goes down as population density goes up, and city kids are statistically safer.

The #1 killer of children in US is car accidents. Guess who gets in dramatically less car accidents? City kids who don't need to ride in cars so much.

The #2 killer of children in the US is guns, and child gun deaths are higher outside the cities, on average. People often don't believe this, but it should be obvious when you pause and consider where American gun culture is centered. It's not in the big cities.

Suicide and substance abuse rates are also lower in the cities. This may be caused by the many small towns with major meth and opioid epidemics pulling down the statistics.

(All of this depends on comparing apples-to-apples: being poor makes a bigger difference than the urban vs rural split, so you need to consider people at the same socioeconomic level.)

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by brightball on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:43PM (#11656034)
Ummm...guns are nowhere near the #2 killer of children in the US. Where did you even find get a stat like that? I'm looking and can't find anything that even resembles it anywhere.

Here are the top 3 by age group: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001915.htm

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by ef4 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:46PM (#11656063)
I should have qualified with "#2 cause of accidental death."

And as your link shows, "accidental death" is the #1 overall cause of death for children.

So it's the #2 category of the #1 category of risk.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by brightball on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:51PM (#11656094)
Could you point me to that? I still can't find it.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by ef4 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:59PM (#11656153)
http://www.medpagetoday.com/upload/2013/7/24/FA-5548.pdf

"Safety in Numbers: Are Major Cities the Safest Places in the United States?" by Myers et al, Annals of Emergency Medicine

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by brightball on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:09PM (#11656459)
The statistic measured is "injury death rate" which explains the qualifier a little bit better and makes perfect sense. That's a fairly narrow field.

If a physical injury is to lead to death, having somebody else around to find you and provide aid / get you to a hospital is going to be less likely the more spread out people are.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by gaur on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:15PM (#11655878)
> I hope they can safely reach the age where they can go off and experience the adventure of the big cities

Conversely, I feel grateful that my parents chose to raise me in a dense urban area, instead of moving out to some suburban hellhole in an attempt to give me a bubble-wrapped existence.

I mostly took care of my own transportation to and from public school from the age of 10 onward (walking or public transit), and was never robbed, assaulted, kidnapped, conscripted into a gang, or whatever it is that suburbanites imagine happens to children in urban environments. I'm not a drug addict, I don't have a criminal record, and I'm gainfully employed.

I would never, ever raise a child in a suburb unless I had to for financial reasons.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by criddell on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:56PM (#11656130)
If you let a ten year old use transit themselves today, there's a decent chance parents will get a visit from the police. I think it's ridiculous, but that's how it seems to be.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:31PM (#11656553)
Indeed; we learned this the hard way when I was growing up, in a graduate student housing complex consisting mainly of foreigners.

The one thing that dozens of nationalities could all agree on was their presumption that their ten year-olds can get home from school and fend for themselves for a few hours. Everybody knew everybody (quite literally), there were always adults out in the enclosed backyard, and there were periodic security patrols. I could think of few safer places to leave a child home alone. Until the harassment from the police started, it would have never occurred to any of us that this constitutes child neglect.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by SN76477 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:07PM (#11655840)
This exactly... my friends live in the city and make the same amount of money as me. Pay 50% more for a house and pay for private school, an additional 20K a year.

Just to be closer to some nice restaurants? No thanks. my suburban life is quite and close to starbucks, Im satisfied.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by cloudjacker on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:02PM (#11656686)
You miss the idea, no fact, that the people in the city scoff at the idea of considering Olive Garden a fancy meal
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by MisterBastahrd on Sunday May 08, 2016 @10:11PM (#11657175)
Then people in the city are assholes for scoffing at the poor, because nobody in middle-class and up suburbia thinks that Olive Garden is fancy.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by brightball on Sunday May 08, 2016 @11:10PM (#11657362)
Funny story. I'm from a smallish town with an average income of about 40k / year and it was MAJOR news when they finally got an Olive Garden. Apparently there is some strict criteria that Olive Garden uses to place their restaurants and whenever the city finally qualified it was a huge thing for economic planners, all over the paper. My dad called to tell me about it.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by MisterBastahrd on Monday May 09, 2016 @11:59AM (#11660807)
Yeah, and they do the same thing when a McDonald's opens in a town for the first time. It doesn't mean they think it's "fancy."
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by jayess on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:31PM (#11655642)
There are many people, usually in so-called "urban planing" positions in cities, that believe that suburbs are something that shouldn't exist. They detest the option of suburbs.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TulliusCicero on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:38PM (#11655683)
No, they detest what suburbs are in the US. Which, besides all the problems mentioned in the article, are often funded via a Ponzi scheme of development: http://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by jayess on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:43PM (#11655710)
Your completely un-sourced article has nothing to do with the OP article, which detests the option of people living in suburbs. Do suburbs pay for themselves? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't also then turn around and argue for cities that have massively subsidized transit systems that themselves, despite the massive subsidies, are breaking down and crappy.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TulliusCicero on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:54PM (#11655775)
> Your completely un-sourced article has nothing to do with the OP article

Yes, you noticed that I was addressing something in your comment rather than the OP, good job on noticing the obvious.

> which detests the option of people living in suburbs.

He does not, in fact, detest the option of people living in suburbs. He detests American suburban design. I'm sure he would love to live in a more European-style suburb, but in most of America (and especially somewhere like Atlanta) they don't even exist.

> But you can't also then turn around and argue for cities that have massively subsidized transit systems that themselves, despite the massive subsidies, are breaking down and crappy.

Wow, way to completely misunderstand both transit and sprawly American suburbs. Here, let me explain it to you:

Transit is subsidized, yes. So are roads built for cars, so are sidewalks and bike lanes. Every form of transport is paid for by taxes.

Property taxes are ostensibly designed to support the extra services and infrastructure that more people and businesses require. If the replacement cost of infrastructure for a new suburban development is greater than the amount of tax revenue those suburbs bring in, when it comes time to replace that stuff, the city will go into the red. Meaning, either it draws the revenue from somewhere else, likely the more economically productive urban core (or even more development, furthering the problem), or it goes bankrupt. That's not good!

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by dang on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:28PM (#11656995)
This comment breaks the HN guidelines by being uncivil ('good job on noticing the obvious', 'Wow, way to completely misunderstand'). Please edit this kind of thing out of your comments here. We want thoughtful, substantive discourse on HN, and nothing corrodes that more than personal abrasiveness.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TulliusCicero on Sunday May 08, 2016 @11:54PM (#11657506)
Understood. Apologies for my tone.

Actually it appears I can't edit my comment anymore.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:19PM (#11656959)
If there were so many people in such positions who held that view, the inhabited areas of the US wouldn't be 90% sprawl.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by antisthenes on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:21PM (#11656505)
The entirety of Europe and many countries with colder climates, where suburbia would be unsustainable due to heating costs manage to raise children in safe environments just fine.

Unless you're citing studies that explicitly show suburbia results in better outcomes for children than being raised in urban environments ceteris paribus, it seems like the only argument you're producing here is your own lack of perspective and being unable to venture outside of personal anecdotal experience.

Suburbs are extremely exclusionary (to the point of being outright xenophobic), inefficient, and in most cases outright ugly, populated by cheap, run of the mill outdated construction from the pre 1977 era, when people burned tons of oil to heat the cardboard boxes that are most of the American 'burbs.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by wmoxam on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:12PM (#11656724)
> many countries with colder climates, where suburbia would be unsustainable due to heating costs

Which countries are these?

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by CM30 on Monday May 09, 2016 @03:03AM (#11658058)
I'd be interested to know this as well. The UK has plenty of suburbs, and it's both got a fairly unpredictable climate and much smaller amount of usable land.

Does Russia not have them or something?

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by YuriNiyazov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:37PM (#11655677)
The safety that someone under 12 requires is very different than the safety that someone over 12 requires. Seems like the teenage you were content with just cursing your dull suburban neighborhood, rather than setting your neighbors' houses and cars on fire for shits and giggles.

Yes, it is part of parental responsibility to provide an environment stimulating enough that vandalism, arson, or drugs aren't an attractive option.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by 55acdda48ab5 on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:26PM (#11655607)
> where my kids have access to safe streets, parks, and decent schools

This all used to be easily achievable in urban neighborhoods. The elephant in the room people don't want to acknowledge is that suburbia has mostly been a way to flee from and exclude social decay. This is why people freak out about public transit to a lot of neighborhoods. The requirement of multiple car ownership in an area is a deliberately constructed mechanism for excluding lower socio-economic people.

If you shut down the public school systems and made all schools private with total freedom to deny any student entry, and you empowered a very aggressive police force (lots of stop and frisk, aggressively enforced vagrancy laws), then you'd see far more urban gentrification.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by lr4444lr on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:23PM (#11655919)
> The elephant in the room people don't want to acknowledge is that suburbia has mostly been a way to flee from and exclude social decay.

This is why I bought in a socially conservative neighborhood: people implicitly police one another into basic civic decency, and I'd much rather suffer an occasional scolding from a few overzealous busybodies than bear the burden of intergenerational poverty and crime. Sure, I may need to drive a bit to find interesting shopping and entertainment options, but at the end of the day if I'm going to make a commitment into an asset as big and un-diversified as a 30 year mortgage, I'd want just about every "negative" the author brings up. And if I'm going to get the fury from HN for saying it, so be it. I'm happy to give up grime, drug trafficking, and violence for an internet tongue lashing.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by rayiner on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:27PM (#11656293)
> few overzealous busybodies than bear the burden of intergenerational poverty and crime.

New York city in recent years has had about 350 homicides and 250 traffic deaths (600 total). The state of Virginia, which has the same population (8m people), has 700 traffic deaths and 300-350 homicides. In other words, you're almost twice as likely to die in Virginia (a mostly suburban and rural state), than in the densest city in the country.

When was the last time you heard about a middle class white kid getting shot in the inner city? How often do you hear about teenagers dying in car accidents in your "safe" suburb?

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tcoppi on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:08PM (#11656709)
There is more to safety than simply violent crimes, non-violent crimes are a worry as well. I agree modern urban cores in American are just as safe in terms of violent crime as any suburb, but I would be interested in seeing how non-violent and property crimes compare. It wouldn't surprise me if they are just as safe as suburbs in that context as well, but it doesn't seem to be talked about nearly as much.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by pyre on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:55PM (#11656127)
> I'm happy to give up grime, drug trafficking, and violence for an internet tongue lashing.

This statement assumes that if you did not make the choice that you have you would be assured to have these things happening right outside your door.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by lr4444lr on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:11PM (#11656219)
Sure. I imagine that many families moved to Sandy Hook, CT for safety and security. There's no guarantee in life. There's also relative measure: some of the old timers where I live feel the neighborhood has "gone downhill". Some people are frankly just happier living in a bustling and unstable place where they simply accept they can't let their kids go outside unsupervised until they're 18. I believe we'll generally be happier with where we live over a multi decade span by identifying our personal priorities and chasing the expected value. It's the author's judgmental and absolutist position that I take issue with, that things like tight uniform zoning, "parking first" space, and hierarchical traffic distribution must "suck". They in fact suck in his opinion.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by pyre on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:00PM (#11656417)
Some people also like to live in communities where every house looks exactly the same with no variation, and where the local homeowners' association will send someone out daily during the summer with callipers to measure your lawn height (or fine you because a box was delivered to your door while you were at work and it was sitting there "too long.")

It does not necessarily mean that these are "good" things just because someone thinks that they are good things either though.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:14PM (#11656945)
They in fact suck in his opinion.

Well, yes. And you, too, can have a blog!

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:18PM (#11656496)
I'm happy to give up grime, drug trafficking, and violence

Well, sure! Anyone would be happy to give up those things; me too! I don't know a person who would say, "I would like to live amidst grime, drug trafficking and violence, please."

... but it's a bizarre non sequitur, unless you're just grossly misinformed about how urban life works.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by fiatmoney on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:29PM (#11655629)
Bingo. Look at the re-conquest of New York City, which follows pretty exactly the pattern you mentioned. "All private schools" isn't even necessary de jure if you can do it de facto via magnet or charter schools and theoretically open neighborhood schools targeted at particular areas.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Retric on Sunday May 08, 2016 @04:43PM (#11655708)
'Reconquest' of city's has far more components than most people assume. Gay community who mostly don't need good schools. Bad traffic to make suburbs less appealing. Video Games to keep young people entertained and not out damaging the community. Vastly reduced Lead levels to reduce violence. Reduced pollution to make city's livable. etc etc. Even the loss of manufacturing and retail jobs has been a net gain for city's.

It's far from any one thing.

PS: And if you want to go far afield reduced threat of nuclear war making city's a viable place for your population.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by bardworx on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:26PM (#11655935)
> Vastly reduced Lead levels to reduce violence

Can you expand on that statement?

Do you imply bullets (as in higher prices and gun control) when you refer to Lead or literally the reduction of the metal Lead in paint, etc.

And how is it linked to violence?

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by jlgray on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:36PM (#11655983)
There's been a lot of research lately on the connection between lead, brain impairment, and violence.

One quick example, claiming cities in the 1920s that switched to lead pipes saw ~25% increase in homicides vs those that didn't. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/jfeigenbaum/files/feigenbau...

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by bardworx on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:57PM (#11656666)
Thanks. Will be interesting to read the paper.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by fiatmoney on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:32PM (#11655960)
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Semiapies on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:02PM (#11656165)
There's a hypothesis out there, pushed by a few researchers citing each other (including one Bell Curve fan), that environmental lead from leaded gas and such caused reduced IQ and greater criminality among urban residents.

It's not actually a remotely mainstream view among any sort of scientist. However, it has a lot of currency among left-of-center people uncomfortable with the legacy of urban renewal (aka "bulldoze functional poor neighborhoods and stuff everyone in a housing project, then be surprised that things go badly") and the race-baiting nature of "tough on crime" measures that both parties adopted.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Retric on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:36PM (#11656325)
The scale is debatable, but there is a lot more evidence for this than you might think. It's also a lot more than just gas, paint, water pipes, sodder, even fillings also made significant contributions.

IMO, scale is not that important as the preverbial straw that broke the camels back is important, but so are all the others that get to that point. A leaning disability on it's own might not lead to violence, but it does reduce people's options even further.

PS: Mercury was also known to have neuron toxic effects. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_hatter_disease. However, lead is more of an issue at developmental stages. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Semiapies on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:01PM (#11656420)
My point is that I'm not concerned about what I, you, or other laymen think about the science, here. I'm concerned about what the scientific community thinks. The scientific community does not accept the claimed social effects for lead. It's quite literally fringe science.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Retric on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:50PM (#11656860)
Can you find any counter arguments other than just calling this fringe? I mean we did ban lead gas exit so presumably it was known to be harmful.

I accept it's not my specialty, but when you have a well known and reasonable method of action and supporting research it's a little harder to just dismiss.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Semiapies on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:37PM (#11657033)
The burden is on the claim, not on those pointing out that the claim isn't accepted.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Retric on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:55PM (#11657099)
Yea, no. That's not how science works, it's not a popularity contest. If you have both a reasonable method of action and can back it up with actual reasarch you become the default until actual evidence suggests otherwise.

Unless you mean that in the most narrow terms, as in literally just popularity.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Semiapies on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:58PM (#11657108)
Sorry, that's exactly how it works. You've pushing a claim. The claim needs proof. The burden is those pushing the claim, not the people pointing out that it isn't proven.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Retric on Sunday May 08, 2016 @10:07PM (#11657150)
You might think that, but young post grads do a literature review not a survey. It might seem morbid, but science is often said to progress when the old guard dies off.

That's not to say it's going to win as the only explanation, just that it needs to be disproven not ignored.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by bardworx on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:15PM (#11656732)
Appreciate your point of view. Another poster mentioned a paper by James J. Feigenbaum† and Christopher Muller‡. Are they some of the scientists you mentioned and labeled as "fringe", in regard to their point of view?

Clearly, violence in communities are multi-faceted topic that cannot be easily explained by something so simple as Lead. However, it might be a possible contributor.

That being said, I do agree with you that the tactics of destroying communities and creating housing projects was clearly a novel idea with terrible implementations and less then desirable outcomes. I work with a lot of folk from housing projects and I've met some really smart people who, without a life line[0], will never get out of poverty. It's a shame really - just by law of averages, politicians should realize that some of the housing projects are harboring brilliant individuals that will never be able to contribute to society within their full potential.

My network tech is from Gun Hill Road in The Bronx, which has an incredibly high crime rate but he can take an engine apart, then back together, within some impressive amount of time judge by Local246[1] (Mechanics Union in NYC). In reality, he really shouldn't be working in our company but in some swanky car modifications shop but they won't hire him based on many different factors. Really, a shame.

[0] - I'm implying that someone would have to hire them to let an individual prove themselves.

[1] - http://nyclocal246.org/

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Semiapies on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:53PM (#11657091)
They are fringe, yes. The lead-crime hypothesis may eventually come to be accepted, but it isn't currently, and outside of the laymen pushing it, it doesn't have much traction. It's not enough to note lead's toxicity and thus, bang, a massive sociological trend is explained.

Yes, lead might be a contributing factor in the Boomer crime wave - it might be proven, one day. But the laymen pushing the hypothesis start out with this is THE explanation! and then retreat to you can't PROVE it doesn't have an effect!. This is classic behavior by supporters of psuedo-science.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by neffy on Sunday May 08, 2016 @10:18PM (#11657201)
Well, speaking as a completely non-representative sample (size 1) of the scientific community, I thought the evidence was fairly convincing - they looked at the different rates as a function of when lead was removed from petrol which varied considerably at the country level.

However I did also flag that they hadn't considered video gaming as an alternative possibility (but that's just a private hypothesis of mine). Certainly not fringe science though.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by lr4444lr on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:28PM (#11655944)
Yes, but also pushing the more troubled denizens out of the city by letting the "affordable" housing stock diminish through less government intervention, which I'm among the admit to say has been a great help in its turnaround. The U.S. is a big country, and there's no reason why over 2.5% of the entire population should crowd themselves into its second most expensive city, many of whom aren't and won't ever be working jobs in industries that can't be found elsewhere in the country.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by tptacek on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:00PM (#11656676)
I think you're going to get in trouble with generalizations like this. Can you be more specific about the exact metro areas whose urban cores are unsuitable for children? My nerdoreceptors are lighting up with counterexamples, but rather than list them, I'd rather understand better what you're trying to say.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Zach_the_Lizard on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:37PM (#11655985)
>Suburbia exists because people want a quiet, relatively safe place for their kids to grow up.

No, that's not why modern sprawling suburbia exists. For most of American history, cities have been home to the middle class and wealthy. Not having to travel far for work or entertainment is a luxury, and middle class and wealthy Americans took advantage of it just like their world counterparts. The Bronx, for instance, was full of middle class families.

However, unlike many parts of the world, America had a terrible race problem. What do you do if you're a racist white American who holds that blacks are inferior, criminals, and going to rape your daughters after smoking the devil's weed? You enact legal prohibitions against them, of course. Squeeze them into one part of the city full of concentrated poverty.

But then courts started overturning legal prohibitions against minorities as attitudes against them improved. Schools were integrated. You even might have to work along side them. That's scary to racists who believed they were all criminals.

It's clear that racist covenants were on their way out, so directly mentioning race wasn't a good enough solution. But you still want race-based results. What do we do? Incomes amongst whites are higher today, and that was true back in the day. We can exploit that to keep blacks out, and as a bonus we can keep out the poor in general.

But we can't just slap up a 'no poors allowed' sign; that would be bad PR. What can we do?

Wait, I know! We can make it illegal to build housing that would be affordable for the poor. Since the poor are less likely to drive, we can also legally force all houses and businesses to cater to cars. If we couple that with laws that make it so our yards are big, and that houses, businesses, schools, etc. are all not near each other, then we can make it so that the poor can never afford these areas.

The beauty of this strategy is it allows co-opting non-racists. You're building the city of the future, as utopian 1950s urban planners thought. A world where no one has to walk because magical cars will save us from all social ills. Good schools, magically no traffic on the way to work, more space, who would be against that?

All we have to do is demolish large portions of urban neighborhoods, enact very restrictive zoning laws that exclude the poor and minorities, and then spend trillions (in current dollars) to build the interstates to make it all work.

Yeah, we'll wreck the environment, kill off passenger rail and public transit, cause urban blight, reduce economic growth, and drastically increase the price of housing (although that would take a generation or two to make it so the young couldn't afford housing, by which time we'll own housing anyways so that we can profit from that explosive housing price growth), but we'll finally never have to see a person with more melanin than us. It'll be great!

And that's how sprawling suburbs in America came about. There are harsh laws that enforce it, as otherwise it is not economical. Even just the laws that require free parking to be provided greatly increase the cost of construction and make many areas impossible to build in.

Yes, even Houston, the magical land without zoning (but many laws that are part of other cities' zoning codes, like minimum lot sizes, setbacks, parking requirements, etc.) has this. Even big cities like NYC, SF, Chicago, and DC got in on the utopian 50s vision.

You name your American city or town, and I will find the laws the force sprawling if they are online (not all towns have their zoning codes online). I can discuss at length the various enforcement mechanisms.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by mrcsparker on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:30PM (#11656547)
Houston is a lot closer to what everyone seems to claim that they want: it is pretty easy to live close to work with small local businesses that service the local community. The heat keeps the city from being walkable.

People from other cities tend to complain about the local of zoning. Zoned cities usually seem very organized and lack the funky house-business-house layout that Houston has. I prefer the lack of zoning, but it isn't for everyone.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by Zach_the_Lizard on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:41PM (#11656586)
Houston could be walkable, despite the heat. Its lack of zoning means mixed use is more frequent, but Houston has parking requirements, setback requirements, minimum lot sizes, max floor area ratio (which defines the max density), etc. The CBD however has no requirement for parking now IIRC so it will become more walkable over time.

Houston will never be Manhattan, but it could be way better.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by abalashov on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:23PM (#11656971)
I lived in Houston for a year and walked 2 mi home from school every day. While I would agree that the humidity (more so than the heat per se) was profoundly stifling to outdoor aspirations, my experience suggests that if a place is interesting enough and if meaningful destinations can be reached by foot, people will nevertheless walk there, in almost any climate.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by mahyarm on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:29PM (#11655948)
Quiet safe urban areas actually exists in large amounts of Germany, while the only real urban areas that exist in the USA are in SF and NYC. SF & NYC have a sizable homeless population, poop on the streets and similar with large amounts of traffic. Suburban city centers attract the homeless and have a large amount of traffic because everyone has to drive in.

German urban areas tend to barely have any road traffic for the density since almost nobody owns a car, a quiet train that passes by once in a while and most things closing at 8pm latest. Need some medicine? The pharmacy is a 5 minute walk away. Board the metro in another 5 minute walk, get to work in 20m. There are barely any homeless or poop on the streets for the most part because they are actually put in social housing and programs (or jail) if the police find them doing that.

You tend to have about 10 square miles of urban area, with 7 story buildings as far as the eye can see and then a sudden drop off into small villages that are everywhere. You can rent or buy large 5 room 2000sqft apartments in these places and actually raise the typical 2.5 kid household in them. In the center of the block there are little common parks with a playground for small kids to play.

If you want your car and SFH lifestyle, the entire city is then surrounded by wooded areas with small villages that are everywhere. You can live in a small village and drive into work into the city about 30m away for fairly cheap. The villages themselves have small urban centers you can then walk into. And some of them have trains, so you can just take the train into the city if you want.

My experience is only with Germany, but I'm guessing there are many other places such as Barcelona, Italy or the UK that is designed like this.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by lsc on Sunday May 08, 2016 @05:59PM (#11656151)
>German urban areas tend to barely have any road traffic for the density since almost nobody owns a car, a quiet train that passes by once in a while and most things closing at 8pm latest.

Everything closes at 8pm? Jesus, I thought that silicon valley was bad, just 'cause it is hard to get a decent meal after 10pm.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by mahyarm on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:11PM (#11656220)
Not everything, there are still a bunch of restaurants and bars and some 24/hr liquor / 7-11 type shops. The noise level although has never been a problem when those are open.

Experience: Living in a place that was right above a bar, a 7-11 and in front of a train.

Also the sidewalks are huge, they are as big as a lane of traffic. As a result cafes and such can easily have comfortable outdoor seating. And because everything is first floor businesses, there are a ton of cafes in a 10 minute radius. You could probably visit a new one every day. Compared to my current place in the usa where I have to walk a few blocks to get to the 'business road', where there is no apartments above the businesses. Not all places are as business dense, but there isn't as much stopping it than the USA lets say.

But yes, things close earlier in europe in general.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by lsc on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:11PM (#11656470)
I'm not sure why people who can afford modern houses complain about noise levels; I'm living right under the flight-path for SJC and it is super loud. But if you close a double pane window? it's pretty quiet; my place has a third single-pane of glass on the outside of that, and if I close the doors and windows? the place is just about silent, no matter how many airplanes go overhead.

It's not a fancy building, either; the construction is typical of the late '80s, early '90s, I think, aside from the third pane of glass, which I think was a retrofit.

Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by TillE on Sunday May 08, 2016 @06:18PM (#11656257)
Supermarkets and shops are the real exception: most close at 8, some at 10. Restaurants, convenience stores, bars, nightclubs, etc all work basically like they do in the US.
Re:Why Suburbia Sucks by _delirium on Sunday May 08, 2016 @07:46PM (#11656606)
> the only real urban areas that exist in the USA are in SF and NYC

I wonder where I was living then, since I've lived in several urbanized parts of the U.S., where I walked or took public transportation everywhere, but have never lived in either of those two cities. :-)